Hey guys. I came across an article or two today regarding a teacher shortage and budget shortfall for the education system. The proposal to circumvent the issue is to go to 4 day school weeks.

Oklahoma Schools Condensing Schedule to Save Money, Attract Teachers | KGOU (http://kgou.org/post/oklahoma-schools-condensing-schedule-save-money-attract-teachers)

The Problem Behind The Oklahoma Teacher Shortage - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/28655227/the-problem-behind-the-oklahoma-teacher-shortage)

They are using the shorter schedule to try and attract teachers. I find this to be embarrassing. First, there is a national problem with teacher pay. It is way too low, but that being said, Oklahoma is near the bottom of the list in teacher salary which is a bigger problem. Teachers aren't leaving the state because of schedules, they are leaving because of pay and a better educational system.

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com (http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/)

I heard the other day that Oklahoma has more school districts than California. It makes sense because of all of the rural areas, but all the districts are probably part of the reason why we have issues.

We get a lot of money from the oil industry among others. Where does it all go?? We have some of the worst roads and worst schools and our current administration has done nothing to improve it. I wish I could see our annual budget for the state and see where our money goes. What are y'all's thoughts on our state's situation?

As someone in education, this was bound to happen. Teachers are underpaid, constantly disrespected, and their work is too often in the hands of ignorant legislators. If the citizens of Oklahoma and the United States want teacher success and stability then it'll have to do what successful countries do - respect teachers as professionals.

In my opinion, there is no fix for Oklahoma's corrupt, broken educational system. The only choice? Flatten and reload. Scorched earth. Start from scratch - everything from funding to organization to bureaucracy.

I am more than ready for some out-of-the-box solutions. I *firmly* believe in mandatory consolidation of school districts and elimination of duplicative administrative positions. I am firmly in the camp of eliminating the absurd layer of bureaucracy that seems to have run amok in our school system in general and gives entirely too much power (and too much of the limited funding) to administrators and PhD's who are so far removed from the classroom that they've turned the whole educational process into a perpetual petri dish of abstract pseudo-educational experiments. Given where we are, I wouldn't object to eliminating the grade structure, putting the kids into classrooms, and handing out McGuffey Readers and going back to rote math table recitation. Bottom line - let the teachers teach. Let the teachers discipline, too. Let the PhD's go experiment...somewhere else.

And until we let teachers discipline again, and stop excusing bad behavior as a perpetual byproduct of chronically damaged self-esteem, the druggable emotional disorder du jour, or merely to avoid hurt feelings, we'll never, ever restore to the classroom the simple respect necessary to establish the teacher as the authority, and the student as the - guess what - the student.

The funding model is so thoroughly broken I don't even begin to know where to fix it. Consdering the OK education budget is, what, something on the order of $3.4 BILLION, BILLION, it to me the very height of asininity that we cannot find a way to pay our teachers and fund the school systems in a manner that garners some practical, real-world benefit - not merely hands kids a scroll when then turn 18.

Okay, okay, rant mode off.

If I had any say in the matter it would go something like this:

Consolidate unnecessary school districts.

Start at the top of the school administration and reduce salaries and get rid of redundant positions.

Re-evaluate distribution of monies going to schools (push more money towards academics and academic facilities as opposed to sports facilities)

At that point, hopefully there will be enough money savings to increase teacher salaries to be competitive with Texas.

Remove teacher tenure (i feel it promotes complacency).

Provide incentives for students to pursue degrees in education

Finally, if the above doesn't get me anywhere, I would reallocate tax money to schools, and if that isn't possible, raise taxes a small percentage. People scoff at raising taxes a little, but if we really want change and if we really want to move from the bottom of the pack nationally, we may have to pay in a little more (this is last case scenario obviously).

Remove teacher tenure (i feel it promotes complacency).


This gonna be good...

This gonna be good...

:Smiley122

That is just what I would like to see happen. It's not like it will ever happen....unfortunately.

:Smiley122

That is just what I would like to see happen. It's not like it will ever happen....unfortunately.

I know, just saying we got a couple passionate teach union folk on here that will strike you down.

It is a difficult discussion, but it needs to happen. My wife is a teacher, and we have talked about the union a lot. There are some things I like about it, but I absolutely HATE that they make it almost impossible to fire teachers with tenure. I've seen too many irritable 60 year old teachers that have no business in a class room but the district cannot do anything with them.

In my opinion, there is no fix for Oklahoma's corrupt, broken educational system. The only choice? Flatten and reload. Scorched earth. Start from scratch - everything from funding to organization to bureaucracy.

I am more than ready for some out-of-the-box solutions. I *firmly* believe in mandatory consolidation of school districts and elimination of duplicative administrative positions. I am firmly in the camp of eliminating the absurd layer of bureaucracy that seems to have run amok in our school system in general and gives entirely too much power (and too much of the limited funding) to administrators and PhD's who are so far removed from the classroom that they've turned the whole educational process into a perpetual petri dish of abstract pseudo-educational experiments. Given where we are, I wouldn't object to eliminating the grade structure, putting the kids into classrooms, and handing out McGuffey Readers and going back to rote math table recitation. Bottom line - let the teachers teach. Let the teachers discipline, too. Let the PhD's go experiment...somewhere else.

And until we let teachers discipline again, and stop excusing bad behavior as a perpetual byproduct of chronically damaged self-esteem, the druggable emotional disorder du jour, or merely to avoid hurt feelings, we'll never, ever restore to the classroom the simple respect necessary to establish the teacher as the authority, and the student as the - guess what - the student.

The funding model is so thoroughly broken I don't even begin to know where to fix it. Consdering the OK education budget is, what, something on the order of $3.4 BILLION, BILLION, it to me the very height of asininity that we cannot find a way to pay our teachers and fund the school systems in a manner that garners some practical, real-world benefit - not merely hands kids a scroll when then turn 18.

Okay, okay, rant mode off.

As a teacher of six years, a recent PhD in education, and someone really involved, I disageee with a lot of this. First, I taught in a great school students and teachers were incredibly successful. Talking about the education system as simply "broken" with the need to be "fixed" she was a real misunderstanding of our schools.

What experiments are PhDs doing in our schools? I know a ton of education professors in Oklahoma and almost all of them favor empowering teachers, not micromanaging them are telling them what to do based on suppose it experiments. If there is something wrong then please be more specific about it. But I would say our education professors are maybe our greatest strength in the state. I think Farmor blame falls with legislators and in some cases administrators who micromanage. I could go on but I don't have time to address everyone of your ideas.

If I had any say in the matter it would go something like this:

Consolidate unnecessary school districts.

Start at the top of the school administration and reduce salaries and get rid of redundant positions.

Re-evaluate distribution of monies going to schools (push more money towards academics and academic facilities as opposed to sports facilities)

At that point, hopefully there will be enough money savings to increase teacher salaries to be competitive with Texas.

Remove teacher tenure (i feel it promotes complacency).

Provide incentives for students to pursue degrees in education

Finally, if the above doesn't get me anywhere, I would reallocate tax money to schools, and if that isn't possible, raise taxes a small percentage. People scoff at raising taxes a little, but if we really want change and if we really want to move from the bottom of the pack nationally, we may have to pay in a little more (this is last case scenario obviously).

I agree with most of your suggestions, but do you have any evidence that tenure actually causes laziness. Most studies I've seen have not seen a correlation. What tenure does is provide teachers comfort in knowing they can teach about evolution or controversial issues, things that they should be doing, without losing their job because of political reasons.

I agree with most of your suggestions, but do you have any evidence that tenure actually causes laziness. Most studies I've seen have not seen a correlation. What tenure does is provide teachers comfort in knowing they can teach about evolution or controversial issues, things that they should be doing, without losing their job because of political reasons.
I agree totally with what Dan has said here. I have taught 38 yrs in Oklahoma, all in the same large district, on the southside of OKC. Next year will be my 39th and last. Retiring. Nothing has changed in those 38-39 years as far as teacher pay and school funding is concerned. I doubt it ever will. It just gets lip service from everyone. But, nothing happens. In my humble opinion, one of the biggest problems in Oklahoma, at least, is way too many administrators at every level, making outrageous salaries. I have a masters in admin and curriculum supervision and enough hours for 2 PHD's. But, I felt my calling and strengths were in the classroom with the everyday give and take with students and the relationship with them. I think I've touched and influenced MANY more students/people than I ever would have as an administrator. But, my income doesn't reflect that. My mistake I suppose.

I agree. There's really no reason for administrator salaries to be double or triple what teachers make... Is it similar in other states? If so, I guess there's a fear of losing admin who are often tasked with "fixing" schools.

If anyone wants a nice historical read on the putrid history of teacher treatment in the U.S. Then read Dana Goldstein's "The Teacher Wars" that just came out last year. It's also available on audiobook.

I agree with most of your suggestions, but do you have any evidence that tenure actually causes laziness. Most studies I've seen have not seen a correlation. What tenure does is provide teachers comfort in knowing they can teach about evolution or controversial issues, things that they should be doing, without losing their job because of political reasons.

There are things about tenure that I do like such as what you mention.

I still feel that there are those out there that get tenure and just kick back. My wife replaced a teacher like this. She was older, and she was a problem for everyone. She yelled at kids and parents, and she was just burnt out overall. She had tenure though and could draw a check. Eventually, they managed to get her to retire, but tenure can allow these problems to occure.

There are things about tenure that I do like such as what you mention.

I still feel that there are those out there that get tenure and just kick back. My wife replaced a teacher like this. She was older, and she was a problem for everyone. She yelled at kids and parents, and she was just burnt out overall. She had tenure though and could draw a check. Eventually, they managed to get her to retire, but tenure can allow these problems to occure.

And, of course, I'm not defending bad teachers, but (a) are you sure teacher couldn't be fired even with tenure? I've seen a number of cases where administrators don't even make the effort to create a paper trail as to why the teacher should be fired and that's why nothing ever happens. And (b) are you sure these teachers wouldn't exist even if we got rid of tenure? There are incompetent people in just about about every field. Teachers just seem to face way more scrutiny about it. And as is evidenced by the teacher shortage, there's not exactly a ton of qualified people knocking down the door looking for teaching jobs.

I'm not saying I have answers to these questions, but we should figure out answers to them before we get rid of something that protects teachers from doing their work without interference for political reasons. The recent case in Seminole where teachers were fired simply for disagreeing with district decisions about spending provides a great example of what can go wrong. And teacher tenure came about before unions ever came to prominence in the United States too. A complicated issue.

To me, the key to improving education is creating a profession where The key to improving education is creating a profession where teachers are treated like professionals. Of course, that means things like higher pay, more decision-making power in their classrooms, and also shared power in schools and districts.

The best way to undermine education is to keep looking for ways to let anyone in the field, allowing the state legislature to continue their merry-go-round of ignorant reforms, and to continue promoting charter schools ( not at all charter schools are the same or bad) or the privatization of education that really don't solve anything.

To me, the key to improving education is creating a profession where The key to improving education is creating a profession where teachers are treated like professionals. Of course, that means things like higher pay, more decision-making power in their classrooms, and also shared power in schools and districts.

The best way to undermine education is to keep looking for ways to let anyone in the field, allowing the state legislature to continue their merry-go-round of ignorant reforms, and to continue promoting charter schools ( not at all charter schools are the same or bad) or the privatization of education that really don't solve anything.
Very nicely stated.

If the administrator of a 500 student school district is getting the same pay as administrator of a 5000 student school district, that is not right or fair. To fix it, the small school districts should have to get together to consolidate. To make it easier to accept, no little school would have to close unless it wanted to. No little school would have to be swallowed up by a much bigger school district. Whatever school administrations had been getting paid, it would result in saving money. And the savings should be big enough to be noticed by the small schools.

As a teacher of six years, a recent PhD in education, and someone really involved, I disageee with a lot of this. First, I taught in a great school students and teachers were incredibly successful. Talking about the education system as simply "broken" with the need to be "fixed" she was a real misunderstanding of our schools.

What experiments are PhDs doing in our schools? I know a ton of education professors in Oklahoma and almost all of them favor empowering teachers, not micromanaging them are telling them what to do based on suppose it experiments. If there is something wrong then please be more specific about it. But I would say our education professors are maybe our greatest strength in the state. I think Farmor blame falls with legislators and in some cases administrators who micromanage. I could go on but I don't have time to address everyone of your ideas.

I equally don't have the time to list the kinds of nonsensical things that my wife - a teacher for some 15 years - has had to go through because it was the latest "new educational paradigm" that someone cooked up and had to be implemented - only to find a year or two later, some new leader comes in and says, in effect, all the old stuff was wrong, and in comes the latest batch of petri dishes, and the cycle repeats. I've been stunned by the byzantine abstractions for teaching children things like reading and math, or the imposition of expectations that teachers can reasonably assess are or are not realistic for some or all of their students - to say nothing of their personal family issues that might constructively make such goals impossible to achieve under any circumstances.

And, in all honesty, it is dismaying to hear from someone who even argues the idea that public schools aren't broken. Funding is broken. Expectations are broken. Results are broken. Social promotion is rampant. Kids are graduating that can't make change without a calculator, spell without an online dictionary, or construct a coherent English sentence, yet don't find it out until they hit a college-level composition or math course.

A system that pays teachers a garbage salary AND expects them to buy supplies for the classroom while paying administrators six-figure salaries is broken. A system that has among the highest number of districts per capita, yet shudders at the notion of consolidation due to political chicanery, is broken. A system that brings principals and teachers to tears due to overwork and micromanagement is broken. A system that is driving teachers out of state so rapidly that it has created a legitimate professional staffing shortage is broken.

Are there exceptions? Are there a few good districts and schools? Of course. In this case, however, those are the exceptions that prove a very ugly rule. We know there are good principals and good teachers, but I hear from my own wife how many of them have just given up that OK schools will ever get better, or treat their teachers any better. They've changed professions to stay in-state, or simply moved out of state.

That's a broken system, no matter how you slice it.

I equally don't have the time to list the kinds of nonsensical things that my wife - a teacher for some 15 years - has had to go through because it was the latest "new educational paradigm" that someone cooked up and had to be implemented - only to find a year or two later, some new leader comes in and says, in effect, all the old stuff was wrong, and in comes the latest batch of petri dishes, and the cycle repeats. I've been stunned by the byzantine abstractions for teaching children things like reading and math, or the imposition of expectations that teachers can reasonably assess are or are not realistic for some or all of their students - to say nothing of their personal family issues that might constructively make such goals impossible to achieve under any circumstances.

And, in all honesty, it is dismaying to hear from someone who even argues the idea that public schools aren't broken. Funding is broken. Expectations are broken. Results are broken. Social promotion is rampant. Kids are graduating that can't make change without a calculator, spell without an online dictionary, or construct a coherent English sentence, yet don't find it out until they hit a college-level composition or math course.

A system that pays teachers a garbage salary AND expects them to buy supplies for the classroom while paying administrators six-figure salaries is broken. A system that has among the highest number of districts per capita, yet shudders at the notion of consolidation due to political chicanery, is broken. A system that brings principals and teachers to tears due to overwork and micromanagement is broken. A system that is driving teachers out of state so rapidly that it has created a legitimate professional staffing shortage is broken.

Are there exceptions? Are there a few good districts and schools? Of course. In this case, however, those are the exceptions that prove a very ugly rule. We know there are good principals and good teachers, but I hear from my own wife how many of them have just given up that OK schools will ever get better, or treat their teachers any better. They've changed professions to stay in-state, or simply moved out of state.

That's a broken system, no matter how you slice it.
Spot on. Dave, you know me and know that I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm at a school that is considered one of the good ones. Unfortunately they are the exception, rather than the rule.

If the administrator of a 500 student school district is getting the same pay as administrator of a 5000 student school district, that is not right or fair. To fix it, the small school districts should have to get together to consolidate. To make it easier to accept, no little school would have to close unless it wanted to. No little school would have to be swallowed up by a much bigger school district. Whatever school administrations had been getting paid, it would result in saving money. And the savings should be big enough to be noticed by the small schools.

Maybe I'm lazy or stupid about doing the research for myself, but ...
Who pays these administrators? The state of OK? or the individual school districts?

I know several teachers in districts all around the OKC metro, all are the 'suburban' districts, and all would tend to agree with Dave on this. I'd say based on what I've heard there isn't a district in the metro that isn't broken.

Spot on. Dave, you know me and know that I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm at a school that is considered one of the good ones. Unfortunately they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Absolutely.

What I think may be a bit lost on some very well intentioned people who are at one of those exceptional schools is the fact that they infer most schools are more similar to their own than different, hence nothing's really wrong.

I equally don't have the time to list the kinds of nonsensical things that my wife - a teacher for some 15 years - has had to go through because it was the latest "new educational paradigm" that someone cooked up and had to be implemented - only to find a year or two later, some new leader comes in and says, in effect, all the old stuff was wrong, and in comes the latest batch of petri dishes, and the cycle repeats. I've been stunned by the byzantine abstractions for teaching children things like reading and math, or the imposition of expectations that teachers can reasonably assess are or are not realistic for some or all of their students - to say nothing of their personal family issues that might constructively make such goals impossible to achieve under any circumstances.

And, in all honesty, it is dismaying to hear from someone who even argues the idea that public schools aren't broken. Funding is broken. Expectations are broken. Results are broken. Social promotion is rampant. Kids are graduating that can't make change without a calculator, spell without an online dictionary, or construct a coherent English sentence, yet don't find it out until they hit a college-level composition or math course.

A system that pays teachers a garbage salary AND expects them to buy supplies for the classroom while paying administrators six-figure salaries is broken. A system that has among the highest number of districts per capita, yet shudders at the notion of consolidation due to political chicanery, is broken. A system that brings principals and teachers to tears due to overwork and micromanagement is broken. A system that is driving teachers out of state so rapidly that it has created a legitimate professional staffing shortage is broken.

Are there exceptions? Are there a few good districts and schools? Of course. In this case, however, those are the exceptions that prove a very ugly rule. We know there are good principals and good teachers, but I hear from my own wife how many of them have just given up that OK schools will ever get better, or treat their teachers any better. They've changed professions to stay in-state, or simply moved out of state.

That's a broken system, no matter how you slice it.

So much to respond to here that I don't have the time/energy to respond to it all. But, first, yes, schools continually impose all kinds of ridiculous things, but those often don't come from university professors at respected institutions. It usually comes from people with degrees working at for-profit companies. As an education professor, me and all my colleagues across two universities have always worked against educational gimmicks.

I don't use the term "broken" because speaking in extremes is so rarely productive. I could give you a million statistics about how literacy, numeracy, etc. are the highest they've ever been. It's easy to romanticize the past and think things have never been this bad, but American schools have ALWAYS been underfunded, labelled "broken," and kids were learning nothing. All your anecdotal examples don't match up with any actual research. But, again, people have ALWAYS complained that kids aren't learning anything in schools. Pick up pretty much any book on the history of education and you'll find the same stories.

Education needs improvements, primarily in funding and prestige, but it's nothing new. I'm minimizing the serious problems and lower funding, but none of this is unprecedented. Anyway, I suspect that most of our disagreements are in terms, not concerns. No point in fighting.

Well, when countries like Cuba have higher literacy rates than the U.S. and are lauded for their educational system, while ours is a maze of "throw it against the wall and hopefully some of it will stick," something is, in fact, broken. I think it's a very appropriate word.

Speaking of Cuba, a neighbor of mine once had a four year old with a serious and rare heart defect. He went to Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, and got the same answer: a certain surgeon at a Havana hospital is the best of the best. He contacted the State Department, who allowed a waiver, and they took this four year old to Cuba. He is now 19 years old and healthy as can be. The bill was ZERO dollars even though they were Americans. They were simply amazed at the island nation and its educational system and healthcare system. NO WAY should they be better - in anything - than this huge, wealthy country to the north.

Well, when countries like Cuba have higher literacy rates than the U.S. and are lauded for their educational system, while ours is a maze of "throw it against the wall and hopefully some of it will stick," something is, in fact, broken. I think it's a very appropriate word.

Speaking of Cuba, a neighbor of mine once had a four year old with a serious and rare heart defect. He went to Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, and got the same answer: a certain surgeon at a Havana hospital is the best of the best. He contacted the State Department, who allowed a waiver, and they took this four year old to Cuba. He is now 19 years old and healthy as can be. The bill was ZERO dollars even though they were Americans. They were simply amazed at the island nation and its educational system and healthcare system. NO WAY should they be better - in anything - than this huge, wealthy country to the north.

Funny you mention Cuba, as I was talking about some of these very same things to someone they other day. They didn't even believe me till they looked up the stats themselves.

The United States has a 99% literacy rate. Yeah, that's terrible. Have you studied how literacy rates are calculated and what accounts for differences? How confident are you in the accuracy of Cuba's numbers anyway? North Korea has 100% literacy - first in the world. Would you also like our schools to be like theirs?

This is another problem we have, people throw out statistics and studies without context or methodologies. The international tests that are frequently referenced have serious methodological flaws, but they're cited in public dialogue like they're scientific laws.

The United States has a 99% literacy rate. Yeah, that's terrible. Have you studied how literacy rates are calculated and what accounts for differences? How confident are you in the accuracy of Cuba's numbers anyway? North Korea has 100% literacy - first in the world. Would you also like our schools to be like theirs?

This is another problem we have, people throw out statistics and studies without context or methodologies. The international tests that are frequently referenced have serious methodological flaws, but they're cited in public dialogue like they're scientific laws.

Too much anger. Dan, you are better than this. You also know there are different figures depending on sources. I appreciate your viewpoint from academia, but it can sometimes border on pedantic. I was making a larger point about our ability to be better.

Too much anger. Dan, you are better than this. You also know there are different figures depending on sources. I appreciate your viewpoint from academia, but it can sometimes border on pedantic. I was making a larger point about our ability to be better.

I know tone doesn't read well online, but I certainly wasn't angry. More frustrated. Anyway, I apologize if it came across poorly.

Give Dana Goldstein's The Teacher Wars (2014) - also available on audiobook - a read and it might help explain why teaching is a frustrating profession. It's constantly labelled as failing or broken (again, there's been no time in American history schools haven't been viewed as "broken") by legislators and the public who do little to support it compared to other countries. Oh well...

I thought that the lottery was supposed to pay for the education system? Or at least that was their excuse for making it legal here. Where is that money going? Maybe Oklahoma could make a certain drug legal and use the taxes from that to pay for the educational system. Teachers would be making 4 times the national average if that was the case.

It’s a poorly managed system where many in management have virtually zero since of efficiency and feel no responsibility other than increasing the size of their own turf. There is a huge amount of wasted resources in our educational system…

There are many cases where big money is spent nearly every year on a new educational program and materials that somebody says is the next best mouse trap when there wasn’t a lot wrong with the old program… Techers grow demoralized by being forced to retrain for a new program nearly every year….. Just when teachers grow proficient the administrators often switch to a new teaching method.

There are many examples in the OKCPS where an employee is run raged with their work load and others in the same building do almost nothing…
It’s a poorly managed system.

It is a difficult discussion, but it needs to happen. My wife is a teacher, and we have talked about the union a lot. There are some things I like about it, but I absolutely HATE that they make it almost impossible to fire teachers with tenure. I've seen too many irritable 60 year old teachers that have no business in a class room but the district cannot do anything with them.
Teachers do get fired in OKCPS……..It’s not often enough but if an principle is willing to put in the long hard work that is required, a teacher can be fired…. The problem is that very few principles are willing to do this work that is necessary to get rid of bad teachers because the system that was agreed to in negotiations is flawed.

I thought that the lottery was supposed to pay for the education system? Or at least that was their excuse for making it legal here. Where is that money going? Maybe Oklahoma could make a certain drug legal and use the taxes from that to pay for the educational system. Teachers would be making 4 times the national average if that was the case.

The funds from the lottery allowed the legislators to slash state funding to pay for tax credits and such.

Our limited resources require that Oklahoma move further down the road of forced consolidation and a reduction of administrators.
When other states can do this and operate with far more efficiency we can too!

Our resources would not be so limited if the legislators were not shoveling them out with no oversight to favorite industries and interests. I will agree that district consolidation is urgently needed, but the outsized influence of rural legislators is a major impediment to getting this done. While I support the position that funding does not always translate to better results, lack of funding insures poor results.

Simple solution, eliminate public schools after 6th grade and make secondary education mandatory. If parents don't pay then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

Or, stop building so many new schools and abandoning old ones. If people want to move to the open prairie fine, but schools shouldn't follow them out there.

Simple solution, eliminate public schools after 6th grade and make secondary education mandatory. If parents don't pay then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

Or, stop building so many new schools and abandoning old ones. If people want to move to the open prairie fine, but schools shouldn't follow them out there.

Do you know of any first world county where this is the practice?

I thought that the lottery was supposed to pay for the education system? Or at least that was their excuse for making it legal here. Where is that money going? Maybe Oklahoma could make a certain drug legal and use the taxes from that to pay for the educational system. Teachers would be making 4 times the national average if that was the case.

Sadly, Oklahoma used to lottery to supplant the funding. It didn't increase the funds; those incremental increases where shifted from Education to pad some of the other state budgets.

Teachers do get fired in OKCPS……..It’s not often enough but if an principle is willing to put in the long hard work that is required, a teacher can be fired…. The problem is that very few principles are willing to do this work that is necessary to get rid of bad teachers because the system that was agreed to in negotiations is flawed.

A principal has to put a non tenured/tenured teacher on a plan of improvement. The maximum teacher load any principal can monitor effectively is 2 to 3 (tenured and non tenured) teachers. There are loads of paper work (documentation) needed to support bringing a teacher before the board for termination with strict timelines & benchmarks.

Unions don't always take the teacher's side; they often work with the administration. Sometimes it's better to counsel the ineffective teacher into resignation.




Simple solution, eliminate public schools after 6th grade and make secondary education mandatory. If parents don't pay then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

Or, stop building so many new schools and abandoning old ones. If people want to move to the open prairie fine, but schools shouldn't follow them out there.

Schools follow the people who reside in the communities that support the tax structure to fund those expanding & new districts.

The older areas have a populous that have long graduated their children; they have no interest in increased property taxes or millage to fund those structures.

Do you know of any first world county where this is the practice?

Japan follows a similar program. Not sure about other countries.

Our limited resources require that Oklahoma move further down the road of forced consolidation and a reduction of administrators.
When other states can do this and operate with far more efficiency we can too!

I agree with this. The local school superintendents are often the most highly paid, and most powerful people, in many rural areas. Some for districts with only a tiny number of students. But Jersey Boss nailed the problem, when rural legislators run the legislature, nothing will happen.

Simple solution, eliminate public schools after 6th grade and make secondary education mandatory. If parents don't pay then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

Or, stop building so many new schools and abandoning old ones. If people want to move to the open prairie fine, but schools shouldn't follow them out there.

Go home, JTF. You're drunk.
Yes, this would solve the problem. In that same vein, we could additional attempt to solve sprawl by making it mandatory to have a certain person-per-square-feet law on your property. Any homeowners who don't comply would pay a low-density-luxury-tax. If they don't pay, then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

I agree with this. The local school superintendents are often the most highly paid, and most powerful people, in many rural areas. Some for districts with only a tiny number of students. But Jersey Boss nailed the problem, when rural legislators run the legislature, nothing will happen.

I think you can hardly say that rural legislators run the legislature. We've got to get out of the two tribes mentality. There is no republican solution. There is no democrat solution. There is no rural solution. There is no urban solution. We need to come together and solve this problem.

Teachers do get fired in OKCPS……..It’s not often enough but if an principle is willing to put in the long hard work that is required, a teacher can be fired…. The problem is that very few principles are willing to do this work that is necessary to get rid of bad teachers because the system that was agreed to in negotiations is flawed.

Retaining, attracting, and nurturing good teachers is a far more important issue than firing bad ones. A lot of the bad teachers are still better than long term subs. What's the use in firing bad teachers if there's no one to replace them? Remember, there's a teacher shortage.

I recently listened to a story (I think it was Freakonomics, but I can't remember) that said that teachers are actually fired more than many other similar professions. However, firing bad teachers has become a talking point. Having said that, there need to be high expectations in the field. No student deserves a bad teacher. But you can't get that with low pay and demoralizing cultures/politics.

If people are moving to areas because of the quality schools, then stop building new schools and make the existing ones quality, We then save millions and millions and millions on construction and land acqusition.

I don't know how to fix it but I do think OKC should unify the entire metro into one system.

In Albuquerque the entire city (600,000) is under Albuquerque Public Schools it has 80,000+ students in it. Granted it has some bureaucratic nightmares (they once lost $16,000,000, they still have no idea where it is.) but the funding is great. Because it is under one system the million dollar homes feed into the same system as the ones in the ghetto. The worst APS high schools receive the same funding as the wealthy neighborhoods. Now they are still bad schools with bad kids in them. Nothing will ever change the fact that the worse your home life, the less likely you'll perform well in school, but does give troubled kids access to the top of the line facilities and teachers. It was an eye opener to see how bad the facilities are in OKC. It helps their odds, it doesn't fix it but it does help.

I thought that the lottery was supposed to pay for the education system? Or at least that was their excuse for making it legal here. Where is that money going?

The big truth is there's just not that much of it. In 10 years the lottery has provided about $600 million for education. So $60 million a year on average. Only 45% of that goes to primary and secondary education, so $25 million or so. Our education budget is about $2.5 billion (not counting the $1 billion that goes to higher ed). So you're talking about a pretty small contribution to the education budget which already is half of our total state annual budget (not counting local spending).

Maybe Oklahoma could make a certain drug legal and use the taxes from that to pay for the educational system. Teachers would be making 4 times the national average if that was the case.

Colorado is projecting $95 million in tax revenue in total from marijuana this year. Sure, it would help, but is would be a single digit percentile increase in education funding. And that's if you don't incur any additional costs (enforcement, etc). I also don't think we'd have the sales here that Colorado has.

Colorado is projecting $95 million in tax revenue in total from marijuana this year. Sure, it would help, but is would be a single digit percentile increase in education funding. And that's if you don't incur any additional costs (enforcement, etc). I also don't think we'd have the sales here that Colorado has.

People are really bad with numbers I've noticed. Sure $95 million is nice but it would be a 3% boost to our education budget. This thread wouldn't exist if all that was needed was a 3% boost in funding.

Colorado is projecting $95 million in tax revenue in total from marijuana this year. Sure, it would help, but is would be a single digit percentile increase in education funding. And that's if you don't incur any additional costs (enforcement, etc). I also don't think we'd have the sales here that Colorado has.

People are really bad with numbers I've noticed. Sure $95 million is nice but it would be a 3% boost to our education budget. This thread wouldn't exist if all that was needed was a 3% boost in funding.

And that's not a sustainable # for colorado. As more states legalize their pot tourism industry will drop and drop and drop. It's not going to fall off a cliff but this would be the high water mark.

Japan follows a similar program. Not sure about other countries.

That isn't true. the vast majority of students in Japan go to public schools and as of 2010, public high schools are tuition free...

The funds from the lottery allowed the legislators to slash state funding to pay for tax credits and such.
Also Republicans and casino operators surely don't want ads run to buy lottery tickets to help sales.

I know a lot of teachers in Kansas from working in the state and they're just demoralized: Why teachers can?t hotfoot it out of Kansas fast enough - The Washington Post (http://wapo.st/1JFOphH)

I agree with this. The local school superintendents are often the most highly paid, and most powerful people, in many rural areas. Some for districts with only a tiny number of students. But Jersey Boss nailed the problem, when rural legislators run the legislature, nothing will happen.

I know you and I are often on differing sides on many issues, zoo, but this one I'm right there with you. I think that's a symptom of a very fundamental problem in Oklahoma politics in general, and perhaps we could diagnose it as another manifestation of the "Good Ol' Boy" syndrome. That, to be sure, transcends liberal/conservative or even more general political divisions and creates unholy alliances of an entirely different nature.

Maybe part of the "scorched earth" reorganization is to entirely reassess the notion of what constitutes the appropriate minimum level of education the state is expected to provide. I remember many, many years ago as a rabble-rousing editor of an HS newspaper who saw this "one size fits all" notion of education as being fundamentally flawed; not all kids are headed for a college degree, so lets provide them and those who are an education that's appropriate and heavily influenced by their own values and choices. The result - a "college-bound" or "college-prep" curriculum and scheduling on the one hand, and a general HS diploma on the other. We definitely do some of that now, I think...

If people are moving to areas because of the quality schools, then stop building new schools and make the existing ones quality, We then save millions and millions and millions on construction and land acqusition.

But you've got to know it isn't that simple, Kerry. Sometimes you come across an "existing" school that's 40, 50, or more years old and find a facility that's in such poor condition that it isn't financially responsible to rehabilitate it. If it costs you more to rehab an existing structure (and that often includes inane things like plumbing, heating, cooling, electrical, and ADA compliance, and in latter-day Oklahoma, safe rooms) than to plow and rebuild, it's poor stewardship of public money to rehab merely for the sake of rehabbing. If you throw (arbitrary number) $10 million at a 50-year-old building, guess what; you end the day with a 50-year-old building that's had a nice facelift, but it's still a 50-year-old building. If you throw that same $10M into a pot for a brand new building that'll last 50 *more* years, isn't that drastically more prudent fiscally?

Mind you, it's not a one-size-fits-all. Study it. Maybe it's smart to rehab one building, but not another. But we just can't say one way is always the best way.

Go home, JTF. You're drunk.
Yes, this would solve the problem. In that same vein, we could additional attempt to solve sprawl by making it mandatory to have a certain person-per-square-feet law on your property. Any homeowners who don't comply would pay a low-density-luxury-tax. If they don't pay, then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

The sad thing is, Dubya, that a great many "progressives" would like nothing more than to do exactly that.

Also Republicans and casino operators surely don't want ads run to buy lottery tickets to help sales.

I think the unstated truth s that the lottery has proven to be exactly the pig-in-a-poke many conservatives tried stridently to warn people about when it was being promised amid all the heartfelt, teary-eyed pleadings of it being "For the Children" like a third-world starvation ad. The money promised was mathematically demonstrable as being unachievable, the model promised was unrealistic, and the notion of gambling our way to prosperity was fool's gold, but anyone who opposed the lottery just obviously hated children.

And yet, here we are, so many years later, with decreasing revenues and decreasing expectations, coupled with the realization that the funding mechanism was nothing more than an elaborate shell game.

And one more thought...amid all this education discussion, I saw an interview on Ch 9 with our new education superintendent. One of the first questions she was asked was about class size, and whether getting average size down to 20 was an acheivable goal.

Her response? "No, I don't see that as realistic..."

Was a great way to kick off the week for my wife. Hearkened me back to the HB 1017 fiasco from, what, 20+ years ago that was supposed to fix everything and didn't, and one of its targets was class sizes, which have been largely torpedoed out of existence.

* sigh *

Well, when countries like Cuba have higher literacy rates than the U.S. and are lauded for their educational system, while ours is a maze of "throw it against the wall and hopefully some of it will stick," something is, in fact, broken. I think it's a very appropriate word.

Speaking of Cuba, a neighbor of mine once had a four year old with a serious and rare heart defect. He went to Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, and got the same answer: a certain surgeon at a Havana hospital is the best of the best. He contacted the State Department, who allowed a waiver, and they took this four year old to Cuba. He is now 19 years old and healthy as can be. The bill was ZERO dollars even though they were Americans. They were simply amazed at the island nation and its educational system and healthcare system. NO WAY should they be better - in anything - than this huge, wealthy country to the north.

Interested in this statement I thought I'd google this - I came up with just the opposite for the average Cuban -

Cuba Has Better Health Care than the United States? by John Stossel on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent (http://www.creators.com/opinion/john-stossel/cuba-has-better-health-care-than-the-united-states.html)

Not to start a fuss here but Cuba having better healthcare has a lot of mixed opinions.

Interested in this statement I thought I'd google this - I came up with just the opposite for the average Cuban -

Cuba Has Better Health Care than the United States? by John Stossel on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent (http://www.creators.com/opinion/john-stossel/cuba-has-better-health-care-than-the-united-states.html)

Not to start a fuss here but Cuba having better healthcare has a lot of mixed opinions.

Given that the Cuban information is entirely self-reported and unsubstantiated, it reminds me of the old Soviet-era elections where it was routinely reported that Kruschev and Brezhnev were "re-elected with 100% of the vote," on top of voting rights organizations reporting that guards at "polling places" instructed "voters" to "vote 'yes' only" (the notion of "elections" was always nothing more than a question in the vein of "Shall X be re-elected?")