I figure OKCTalk is as likely to have an answer for this than anywhere else. Fairly recently (probably sometime in the last 5 years), a good chunk of the stoplights in the CBD were replaced with new black signals that are mounted horizontally instead of vertically. This happened in the past few years or so; I remember when I was a kid they had traditional yellow, vertically-mounted stoplights. It seems like this is limited to just the CBD area; I've seen newer installations outside of the core that are the traditional style.

Is this done for a practical reason (higher winds in the CBD due to buildings, perhaps? I've noticed the backplates are curved as if to make them more aerodynamic) or some sort of attempt to make downtown feel 'special'? I hope it's not the latter...there are better ways of doing that. The horizontally-mounted signals are a little disorienting as you move from the rest of the metro with its vertical-mount signals to downtown. I would also argue that the continuity that using the same signal design throughout the city provides is a more useful "placemaking" accent than having different signal types. The intersections of SW 104th/Western and Robinson/Sheridan are obviously very different visually, but having the same signal design both places makes it obvious they're meant to be part of the same city. The standard OKC signal design is pretty distinctive; OKC uses yellow while all of the suburbs use black.

These same signals also have a black-and-white street name sign on them, which I find less appealing than the traditional white-and-green signs with the city seal, but I suppose that's a personal aesthetic judgement. More worrisome is the fact that the signs seem to use a mishmesh of traditional FHWA Series fonts and Clearview, the latter of which is explicitly not approved for use on black-and-white signs.

Project 180

I'm sure it was just a design element as part of the huge streetscape project known as Project 180.

The City hired an very well-known architect to design everything, and they decided on that style of traffic light.

They is also a uniform street light and several other elements that were standardized in the middle of the central business district.

Interesting, thanks. While I haven't had a chance to delve into the details there, and I probably like other parts of it, I wish they had left the stoplights alone! :P

Would like to see the horizontal signals all over town. They have them all over in Texas and they seem to work fine.

All the newer lights in Mustang are being put in horizontal. I thought it was for some transports that are pretty tall, cranes and oil field equipment to go through an intersection without snagging a light. Maybe horizontal is the new vertical.

I wonder how concentric circles would work (with tongue firmly implanted in my buccal surface)? Red on the outside, followed by yellow, and green in the center. For left turns the light could rotate counterclockwise (or "anti-clockwise" for my Brit friends) and clockwise for right turns (anti-cyclonic) for my meteorological friends. The rotation would tell you which way to turn your steering wheel. Oh! Time for my meds...

I personally prefer the traditional vertical light, mostly because I'm used to it, I suppose. Whenever I come across a horizontal light it takes me a few seconds to parse what's going on. I'm told they're even worse for colorblind people, who have to determine the light's color based on the position of the light (top is red, middle is yellow, bottom is green). If they're not familiar with horizontal lights, I'm told it can be really confusing.

Horizontal and vertical lights are both considered equally OK under federal guidelines, but the vast majority of the country uses vertical-mount. Most of Texas is horizontal-mount, and Wisconsin is transitioning from horizontal to vertical. Lawton is kind of a mix of both, and some intersections have horizontal and vertical on the same pole (horizontal for left-turn signals and vertical for thru signals). I really think it would be best if on a city-wide basis they were all one or the other, excepting special circumstances (some cities use vertical-mount except in situations where the signal is close to a bridge, where the signals are mounted horizontally to allow vehicles under the bridge to see the signal better).

OKC can do whatever it likes, since I don't live there, but if Norman ever jumps on this horizontal bandwagon, I'll send in a complaint!

I think it is nice for downtown to have a different type of light. To me, that's the whole point of the place making effort that someone knows they are in the downtown area. There may likely also be additional reasons for it (like wind gusts, clearance, and so on) but I don't think an entire city needs to be homogeneous.

We have a variety of lights here in Seattle, with downtown ones (vertical on a single pole/strip) being different than others (on wires, mostly) likely for wind and clearance. If I recall correctly, OKC used to have the Seattle style single pole lights downtown and I almost recall some strung on wires too - but again, OKC is a different, more severe wind city than Seattle so it likely made sense to go with the L poles (and now horizontal lights).

I was curious about the color blind issue, so I did a little Googling and found this reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/ColorBlind/comments/1r0i8d/how_do_you_guys_deal_with_street_lights/). From what is stated in it, horizontal traffic lights still have a standard order in any given country, once you learn the pattern it's effectively the same as vertical lights. Supposedly the colors still show up differently even for color blind people, too.

The main reason behind them is the reduction in visual clutter.

I think the horizontal lights are stupid, primarily because most of the country doesn't mount them that way and it can be disorienting to people with normal vision, much less those who are color-blind. I have two friends who are color-blind and both about panicked the first time they encountered a horizontal light and they are still uncomfortable when they encounter them.

not being color blind, I see Red, Yellow and green the same if they are sitting on top of each other or if they are side by side. I would imagine color blind individuals do not see Red, Green and yellow as the same color and manage just fine either way.

now the lights that look dark until you are almost to them before you can see which color is lit are a problem for me.. I see them now and again.

^^^ I seriously agree with Bullbear about the lights that cannot be read until I'm right up with them. Sure, I can slam on my brakes if it's red, but what about the driver behind me who is texting. Will he stop or will he knock me into the intersection where I'm at the mercy of the cross traffic?

More baffling to me is why the lights in the CBD and bricktown aren't automatically timed for pedestrians. I always feel bad for those people who patiently waited for the light to change only to have it not give them a walk signal because they didn't push a button to cross the street and then they race across hoping the thing doesn't change on them. Most urban areas I'm familiar with don't require you to push a button to walk. I think all of downtown could benefit from the convenience of it, but in the CBD and bricktown it seems like it should be done as a safety measure.

not being color blind, I see Red, Yellow and green the same if they are sitting on top of each other or if they are side by side. I would imagine color blind individuals do not see Red, Green and yellow as the same color and manage just fine either way.

now the lights that look dark until you are almost to them before you can see which color is lit are a problem for me.. I see them now and again.

The newer and better LED traffic lights are great. You can see them from a pretty good distance, and my vision isn't the best in the world.

I have seen some LED ones I can see. I don't know the model or light source on the ones I am talking about all I know is all the lights look dark until you are right up on them and then like magic one of them is lit.. its not cool

If I had to guess I bet they're trying to get people to slow down for the intersections with that sort of design.

I wish OKC would get on board with illuminated street signs. Most other cities have them at least in certain areas of town. You are starting to see them even in Norman.

Love the illuminated street signs bchris02. I also like the horizontal stop lights. If someone can't figure them out I would just as soon those people be banned from driving.

All the newer lights in Mustang are being put in horizontal. I thought it was for some transports that are pretty tall, cranes and oil field equipment to go through an intersection without snagging a light. Maybe horizontal is the new vertical.

Mustang did theirs specifically for truck transport that goes through town. First thing I though of when I saw this thread.

^^^ I seriously agree with Bullbear about the lights that cannot be read until I'm right up with them. Sure, I can slam on my brakes if it's red, but what about the driver behind me who is texting.

Well, the point of those lights is to force you to drive towards them at a speed that doesn't require you to slam on your brakes since you don't know if it is green or not. If you are driving towards a light that you can't see going "hope it's green and I don't have to slam on my breaks" then that's not really the fault of those signs.

I have seen some LED ones I can see. I don't know the model or light source on the ones I am talking about all I know is all the lights look dark until you are right up on them and then like magic one of them is lit.. its not cool

Those are generally in place where one set of lights can be confused with another set of lights that is right before or behind them, or for angled lights/streets that can be confused with the straight-ahead lights/streets. It's basically so the people at intersection 1 don't see intersection 2's (just 20 feet further away) lights turn green and think it's for them. Some designs are better than others at being able to see them, but OKC hasn't implemented them consistently or always correctly (sometimes they're almost impossible to see even if you're sitting at them).

I'm not sure if they're LED or if they just have some kind of shield on them that makes them look dark until you're close.

not being color blind, I see Red, Yellow and green the same if they are sitting on top of each other or if they are side by side. I would imagine color blind individuals do not see Red, Green and yellow as the same color and manage just fine either way.


The issue with ligh orientation and color blind people is that for decades the red light has always been on top and the green on bottom. Most color blind people who drive learned to drive this way. They know that if the top light is illuminated then they should stop. If the bottom light is illuminated then they can go. When you change the orientation of the light, this becomes confusing for color blind people because they're not familiar with where the red and green lights are and it can be dangerous for them.

The issue with ligh orientation and color blind people is that for decades the red light has always been on top and the green on bottom. Most color blind people who drive learned to drive this way. They know that if the top light is illuminated then they should stop. If the bottom light is illuminated then they can go. When you change the orientation of the light, this becomes confusing for color blind people because they're not familiar with where the red and green lights are and it can be dangerous for them.

It would be an issue for a left handed color blind person maybe. Things are always typically read from left to right, top to bottom so the red light is always going to be the "first light" whether it be the top one or the left one on a horizontal light.

Lawton is kind of a mix of both

I've been to Lawton several times, and I'm surprised/ashamed/lucky to be alive to admit that I've never noticed which way their traffic lights were positioned. I know that most of them take forever to change (especially the one at Rogers Lane and I-44 access ramp - the one that keeps me from leaving Lawton faster than I already do).

Okay, serious question. Do color blind people see red and green as the same color (or shade of gray, or whatever)?

Okay, serious question. Do color blind people see red and green as the same color (or shade of gray, or whatever)?

Red-green color blind people generally have difficulty distinguishing between reds, greens, browns and oranges. They also commonly confuse different types of blue and purple hues.

There are different kinds of color blind and can involve one or more colors and their combinations.

Thanks Rover.

One of my best friends in high school was red-green colorblind. He was also an incredible artist, but generally utilizing pencil or pen and ink. Anytime he did something that demanded color, he needed help with it. I sat next to him throughout high school and helped him pick colors, and also collaborated on a couple of projects, for instance airbrushing color gradient lettering at the bottom of one of his pencil drawings.

What is even crazier is that he became an illustrator for Hallmark, and now is in the advertising industry. I haven't seen him in years, but a few weeks ago I sent him a video about new colorblind corrective glasses that I ran across. It seems technology is finding a cure even for that colorblindness condition:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csx_PHKJei8

Things are always typically read from left to right, top to bottom so the red light is always going to be the "first light" whether it be the top one or the left one on a horizontal light.

Typically, but not always. That's an awfully big assumption to make if you can't discern between red and green and all you've ever known is red is on top. You're putting yourself and others in danger based on an assumption that red would be on the left. Also, I've heard for horizontal lights the color order is the opposite in left hand drive places such as the UK. So you can't always just assume that it's the same.

Typically, but not always. That's an awfully big assumption to make if you can't discern between red and green and all you've ever known is red is on top. You're putting yourself and others in danger based on an assumption that red would be on the left. Also, I've heard for horizontal lights the color order is the opposite in left hand drive places such as the UK. So you can't always just assume that it's the same.
The OP mentioned the CBD, not international standards. Do you know of anywhere in the USA where red is is on the right on a horizontal mounted traffic light? When I drive my car I assume that I drive on the right hand side. Of course my car has only been driven in the USA and Canada.

Those are generally in place where one set of lights can be confused with another set of lights that is right before or behind them, or for angled lights/streets that can be confused with the straight-ahead lights/streets. It's basically so the people at intersection 1 don't see intersection 2's (just 20 feet further away) lights turn green and think it's for them. Some designs are better than others at being able to see them, but OKC hasn't implemented them consistently or always correctly (sometimes they're almost impossible to see even if you're sitting at them).

I'm not sure if they're LED or if they just have some kind of shield on them that makes them look dark until you're close.

They are called "programmable visibility" signal heads and they've been around since at least the 80s. They have a fisheye-type lens on them, parts of which are blocked out with tape, so that only cars in a certain area can see them. They used to be used a lot for left-turn signals so that drivers in other lanes wouldn't mistakenly think that the signal is for them. Nowadays we just use arrows for left-turn signals.

Here's an instructional video that was created by 3M that shows how to set up one of these signals. They're actually pretty clever in how simple they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsDN5pnDEWU

Typically, but not always. That's an awfully big assumption to make if you can't discern between red and green and all you've ever known is red is on top. You're putting yourself and others in danger based on an assumption that red would be on the left. Also, I've heard for horizontal lights the color order is the opposite in left hand drive places such as the UK. So you can't always just assume that it's the same.

This is the point I was trying to make...while yes, the MUTCD says that horizontally-mounted signals shall have red on the left, I'm probably one of the only people that's sat down and read it for fun. If you are a colorblind driver that has driven around Oklahoma City for years and years and don't regularly visit Texas or other places with horizontal lights, the first time you go downtown after Project 180 is going to surprise you a bit. Hopefully you have a passenger that can tell you red is on the left.

Horizontal versus vertical is not something that has a definite "better" either way, but having a mix of the two is probably not the optimal way.

The OP mentioned the CBD, not international standards.
So you don't think that anyone from the UK ever visits Oklahoma and drives in our city. And you don't think there's the possibility that they could ever be color blind.



Do you know of anywhere in the USA where red is is on the right on a horizontal mounted traffic light?
No, I don't. I can't know every stop light configuration in the US. There may be none with the red on the right, there may be one or more.



When I drive my car I assume that I drive on the right hand side. Of course my car has only been driven in the USA and Canada.
You don't assume that you drive on the right here in the US. That's the law. It's not an assumption.

Is the MUTCD a list of recommendations or of enforced regulations? If it's the latter then red on the right versus left would fall into the same ballpark as which side of the road you drive on.

Is the MUTCD a list of recommendations or of enforced regulations? If it's the latter then red on the right versus left would fall into the same ballpark as which side of the road you drive on.

Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) - FHWA (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/)

The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, or MUTCD defines the standards used by road managers nationwide to install and maintain traffic control devices on all public streets, highways, bikeways, and private roads open to public travel. The MUTCD is published by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) under 23 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 655, Subpart F.
The MUTCD, which has been administered by the FHWA since 1971, is a compilation of national standards for all traffic control devices, including road markings, highway signs, and traffic signals. It is updated periodically to accommodate the nation's changing transportation needs and address new safety technologies, traffic control tools and traffic management techniques.

On December 16, 2009 a final rule adopting the 2009 Edition of the MUTCD was published in the Federal Register with an effective date of January 15, 2010. States must adopt the 2009 National MUTCD as their legal State standard for traffic control devices within two years from the effective date.

No assumptions need to be made.

Colorblind at the Traffic Light | Colblindor (http://www.color-blindness.com/2007/02/06/colorblind-at-the-traffic-light/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEWBT73jiJ8

They also do not seem to swing around as much but that was when the vertical ones were on wires.

Why Are the Stoplights Horizontal in the CBD? . . .
They are vaguely trendy, hip, old-fashioned and authentic at the same time.
Please be sure to pay attention to them, rather than texting a picture of them, and move forward when the green one lights up.

No, I don't. I can't know every stop light configuration in the US. There may be none with the red on the right, there may be one or more.



Should be none, MUTCD is followed everywhere in the USA.

Should be none, MUTCD is followed everywhere in the USA.

Depends on the section, to be honest. There are plenty of cases where ODOT has ignored or misinterpreted the MUTCD. There are plenty of instances in Oklahoma where a recreational destination appears on a green or blue sign instead of on a brown one like MUTCD specifies, for instance. You can find dozens of signs using unapproved fonts. The stoplight color order is comparatively more important, however, and is almost always followed by all states and cities.*

The only method the FHWA has to enforce the MUTCD is to refuse to pay federal funds for a project that installs non-compliant traffic control devices. For a small deviation, it often will not be worth the hassle to pressure the state. For a city project, FHWA may have no say at all if there are no federal funds involved. Because of that, cities often kind of do their own thing. That squiggly line you see on the street as you approach a school zone in OKC is not shown anywhere in the manual, for instance.

The issue, however, is not one of compliance with the MUTCD, it is whether a color-blind driver who has never read the MUTCD and never been to a horizontal-mount area will know that the red light is on the left. Even if they have been to Dallas at some point, it's an easy enough fact to forget, and coming across a sideways light in a city full of normal ones could be very surprising.

*There is one light that I know of in New York that was installed upside down. It is in a neighborhood that was majority-Irish at the time that the signal was installed and the locals insisted that the green light be at the top.

Specifically relevant to this thread is Section 4D.10: Positions of Signal Indications Within a Horizontal Signal Face (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part4/part4d.htm#section4d10).


Standard:
01 In each horizontally-arranged signal face, all signal sections that display red signal indications shall be located to the left of all signal sections that display yellow and green signal indications.

02 In horizontally-arranged signal faces, each signal section that displays a YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall be located to the left of the signal section that displays the GREEN ARROW signal indication to which it applies.

03 The relative positions of signal sections in a horizontally-arranged signal face, from left to right, shall be as follows:

CIRCULAR RED
Steady and/or flashing left-turn RED ARROW
Steady and/or flashing right-turn RED ARROW
CIRCULAR YELLOW
Steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW
Flashing left-turn YELLOW ARROW
Left-turn GREEN ARROW
CIRCULAR GREEN
Straight-through GREEN ARROW
Steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW
Flashing right-turn YELLOW ARROW
Right-turn GREEN ARROW

04 If a dual-arrow signal section (capable of alternating between the display of a GREEN ARROW and a YELLOW ARROW signal indication) is used in a horizontally-arranged signal face, the signal section that displays the dual left-turn arrow signal indication shall be located immediately to the right of the signal section that displays the CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication, the signal section that displays the straight-through GREEN ARROW signal indication shall be located immediately to the right of the signal section that displays the CIRCULAR GREEN signal indication, and the signal section that displays the dual right-turn arrow signal indication shall be located to the right of all other signal sections.

05 The signal section that displays a flashing yellow signal indication during steady mode operation:

Shall not be placed in the same horizontal position as the signal section that displays a steady yellow signal indication, and
Shall be placed to the right of the signal section that displays a steady yellow signal indication.