View Full Version : What Dallas advantages remain?



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Pete
04-29-2015, 09:52 AM
With the rash of great bars and restaurants, the prospect of tons of new retailers and what seems to be a burgeoning live music scene, I pose this question: What does Dallas have to offer that OKC does not?

As we know all too well, Dallas has been drawing people from Oklahoma for jobs, excitement, night life, dining, shopping, sports, recreation and just plain vacation for decades. Oklahomans have spent tons of money in North Texas.

But now that OKC has many of the same things, I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of Dallas draws that are lacking in Central Oklahoma.

We all know the ease of life in OKC is much better: generally less expensive, way less traffic, etc.

It seems the migration -- and the desire to do so -- to Big D has greatly lessened and I suspect the number of people traveling there for various reasons is starting to decrease as well.


Dallas Advantages (this is just a start):

Live Music. But this is likely to change very soon.

Pro Sports. They have big-league soccer, hockey, baseball and football in addition to the NBA. However, I wonder how many Okies actually travel for these things any more? With the Thunder, college and minor league sports, I think that has slowed down dramatically.

Recreation. Six Flags. We have nothing like it.

Arts. The have bigger, better symphonies, ballet, theater and everything else. But I doubt many people are moving or traveling for these.

Shopping. Ikea. Nordstrom. What else that people actually travel for?

Restaurants. Every city will have unique restaurants but OKC is fast catching with the big chains and has tons of great local options now.

Young people / vitality. OKC has made up tons of ground here.

Jobs. Again, Dallas isn't nearly the lure it once was, mainly due to the robust local job market.

Urbanism. Dallas has bits – like DART and some great neighborhoods – but you could actually make the argument it's way worse than OKC in terms of sprawl, traffic, etc.

bchris02
04-29-2015, 10:15 AM
A huge one is that Dallas' urban districts are much farther along and are interconnected. The walk from downtown Dallas through Uptown up to SMU/Mockingbird Station is amazing and OKC has nothing that compares. OKC can get there on a smaller scale once you can walk from Bricktown to Midtown, and then either up to the Paseo or over to the Plaza and be in contiguous, gentrified, mixed-use urban development the entire time. Today, OKC still has far too many gaps in development. Dallas also has DART as well as adequate retail services (grocery/drug store) in its urban core. OKC has a long way to go here.

Another big one is family-oriented entertainment. OKC likes to focus on being a family-oriented city, but I wish this city would get some of the higher-tiered family-oriented attractions like Dallas has. Things like Ripley's House of Wax/Believe it or Not, the Aquarium, Perot Science Museum, Medieval Times, Rainforest Cafe, etc. These kind of attractions would be a home run in Lower Bricktown.

Like you said, recreation is a big one also. In addition to Six Flags, Dallas' greenway/trail/park system completely blows OKC's out of the water both in overall scope as well as design.

Another big one for me, though this isn't a big deal to a lot of people, is aesthetics and placemaking. Dallas has a similar climate to OKC and lacks a lot of natural beauty to work with, but they make up for it with excellent placemaking, beautification, and building codes. Most areas have sidewalks and are well landscaped and maintained. This applies to both urban and suburban areas of Dallas. I really wish OKC would start taking this more seriously because an aesthetically pleasing city is a much nicer city to live in, at least in my opinion.

ou48A
04-29-2015, 10:49 AM
What Dallas and Texas have that OKC and Oklahoma do not at least not by as much is a far better corporate environment which with their higher wages drives the development of amenity’s that have been listed in this thread.

As a result of the environment that they have created the major city’s in Texas have a much greater base of wealth that builds and donates to causes with a vision to create more even more prosperity not only for themselves but for their community’s as well.

Our state needs to become a far friendlier place to new, relocating and expanding corporate headquarters with a better state tax environment for both individuals and corporations and also offer incentives that can’t be ignored. Maps did wonders for OKC …. So can making our state the best place for corporation to locate their high wage, high end operations.

Business and their CEO's always and eventually follow the money and so do the nice things that many of us want.

OklahomaNick
04-29-2015, 12:16 PM
Corporate headquarters:

Dallas Fortune 500: (21 total)

List of companies in the Dallas?Fort Worth metroplex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_in_the_Dallas%E2%80%93Fort_Worth _metroplex)

2 Exxon Mobil (Irving)
12 AT&T (Dallas)
112 American Airlines Group (Fort Worth, Texas)
124 Fluor Corporation (Irving)
130 Kimberly-Clark (Irving)
143 HollyFrontier (Dallas)
146 J.C. Penney (Plano)
175 Texas Instruments (Dallas)
203 Dean Foods (Dallas)
205 Southwest Airlines (Dallas)
262 GameStop (Grapevine)
266 Tenet Healthcare (Dallas)
292 Energy Future Holdings (Dallas)
351 Energy Transfer Equity (Dallas)
361 Commercial Metals (Irving)
341 Affiliated Computer Services (Dallas)
388 Celanese (Dallas)
404 Dr Pepper Snapple Group (Plano)
473 Atmos Energy (Dallas)
492 RadioShack (Fort Worth)
493 Wistron (McKinney, Texas)

Oklahoma City Fortune 500: (2 total)

List of companies based in Oklahoma City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_Oklahoma_City)

163. Chesapeake Energy
270. Devon Energy

OklahomaNick
04-29-2015, 12:23 PM
Population:

Oklahoma City MSA : 1,347,333

Dallas MSA:

Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington : 6,371,773

Dallas–Plano–Irving : 4,235,751
Fort Worth–Arlington : 2,136,022

bchris02
04-29-2015, 12:31 PM
Population:

Oklahoma City MSA : 1,347,333

Dallas MSA:

Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington : 6,371,773

Dallas–Plano–Irving : 4,235,751
Fort Worth–Arlington : 2,136,022

In terms of statistics such as population, GDP, and number of Fortune 500 companies, DFW is so much larger than OKC that there really isn't any comparison. The difference between OKC and DFW is as vast as the difference between Fort Smith, Arkansas and OKC.

I think Pete was asking more about amenities and quality of life. Why would somebody who lives in OKC take weekend trips to Dallas or want to move there? What, in terms of quality of life, would a person gain from living in Dallas over OKC? In my opinion there are still numerous advantages to DFW but nobody can deny that the necessity of trips to the Metroplex or the desire of OU grads to move there is lower now than it was 15 years ago.

adaniel
04-29-2015, 12:50 PM
As you know I was one of the Okies that got sucked down to Dallas for a job last year. But my parents and family have been here a while, so I've been able to see both cities pretty well over the past 10 years or so.

I think Dallas's biggest advantage over OKC is that is a bigger market, and all that entails. More diverse job offerings (this is main one) especially if you want to work in IT or Finance, more shopping, more concerts and shows. If that sounds vague, it’s because it is. Beyond more jobs, drilling down specific benefits would start being more dependent on personal tastes.

Dallas has plenty of sprawl, but also some fantastic urban neighborhoods like Trinity Groves, Bishops Arts District, Lower Greenville, etc. that are really beginning to pop. The problem is most Okies and frankly, most DFW suburbanites, know nothing about these places. And if I were to be completely honest, they are at best larger and slightly more polished versions of districts you can find in OKC. But they are nice nonetheless if someone from OKC was just itching for a change in scenery.

I am probably going to catch hell for this but outside of Tex-Mex I am not impressed at all with Dallas's culinary scene. I have yet to find a good BBQ place (I mentioned in a previous thread I had to sit in traffic for an hour and a half for decent brisket). I still cannot find a good bowl of Pho like I could off of Classen, and a lot of the famous burger haunts here are underwhelming compared to S&B’s, the Garage, etc. On the flip side there are chains chains and more chains, if that's your thing....it’s not mine though. I find there is an overemphasis on “upscale” everything and overpriced fusion nonsense. Certainly not something I would drive down from OKC from.

The arts scene here is underrated, especially if you include Ft Worth. Personally not something I would drive down from OKC but again, a nice change in scenery if you wanted to get out of town for a bit. Dallas is actually a national leader in Black Arts. The theatre scene here needs some work. If you want good theatre, believe it or not Houston is actually one of the better ones in the US.

One major thing that I think should give a lot of Oklahomans pause about Dallas is the surging cost of living. Of course DFW has always been more than OKC but once upon a time the cost difference was pretty minimal. Not anymore. There still are a good amount of corporate relocations here, especially from the coasts, and its bringing a lot of outside money (and equity) here. The price of real estate is starting to get out of hand. There was actually an article about this recently in the DMN (http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2015/04/new-report-d-fw-housing-market-gets-bad-marks-for-soaring-prices.html/). More than anything, I am hearing natives starting to complain about this. Gone are the days when you could buy a new $200-300K home in a decent school district. Today that is more like 350-500K. Still cheaper than NYC or LA but higher than vast majority of the middle of the country; and needless to say, wages have not gone up at the same rate. This is addition to the increase in cost of commuting due to the spread of toll roads and overall congestion.

In the US today, big cities can be grouped at their simplest as lifestyle cities or business cities. Dallas is very much the later and it does a very good job at it. But outside of that, a lot of so-called advantages here can be found in other places. DFW, much like OKC, is a good city to establish your base and use it as a jump off point for other places. Personally, I think OKC should emulate more towards Denver. I feel that more than any other city, it presents the biggest magnet for people from Central OK. It would be wise to place ourselves in their orbit more.

Swake
04-29-2015, 12:52 PM
Well, let’s start off with the fact that Dallas sucks as a big city. It’s one of, if not the, very worst large metros in the nation. All the pain and congestion and difficulty of a big city with so little in return. Dallas isn’t urban, it isn’t cool, it doesn’t have history, or culture, or arts. Everyone I know that lives there is working on leaving. I have no idea how it continues to grow like it does.

Think about this, Dallas-Ft Worth has a population that is rapidly approaching the size of Washington-Baltimore, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami and the Bay Area. It’s only a third smaller than Chicago! Think about what those cities have to offer compared to Dallas, those cities are now DFW’s peers. The truth is that Dallas and Houston absolutely suck compared real large cities.

I pointedly have not mentioned the other peer city, Atlanta, because Atlanta sucks too.

Quit trying to be Dallas.

bchris02
04-29-2015, 01:28 PM
Dallas has plenty of sprawl, but also some fantastic urban neighborhoods like Trinity Groves, Bishops Arts District, Lower Greenville, etc. that are really beginning to pop. The problem is most Okies and frankly, most DFW suburbanites, know nothing about these places. And if I were to be completely honest, they are at best larger and slightly more polished versions of districts you can find in OKC. But they are nice nonetheless if someone from OKC was just itching for a change in scenery.

Dallas' urban districts are one of the big reasons I would consider moving there from OKC. While I do agree that many of Dallas' districts are larger and more polished versions of what is emerging here, OKC's urban districts are still very small and early in their redevelopment while in Dallas they are much more mature and interconnected. If that is the environment one is looking for, why wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there when it is already available in Dallas?

Some people like being part of an urban renaissance and for them, OKC is one of the best places I can think of to be right now. Some people however want a "finished" city and for them, Dallas is suffice while OKC isn't quite there yet. That said, if the choice was between Dallas and say Austin or Denver, a strong case could be made for the latter.


I am probably going to catch hell for this but outside of Tex-Mex I am not impressed at all with Dallas's culinary scene.

I think seafood could be added to the list of reasons to go to Dallas. In OKC your choices are pretty much Red Lobster or some cajun/fried variety. Dallas has a ton of great seafood restaurants, both chain and locally owned. Real Indian food (not a buffet) is another cuisine people drive to Dallas for. Personally I have no issues with the Tex-Mex in OKC or maybe I just haven't tried the right place in Dallas yet.



Personally, I think OKC should emulate more towards Denver. I feel that more than any other city, it presents the biggest magnet for people from Central OK. It would be wise to place ourselves in their orbit more.

I would agree, but I think OKC is going to have a difficult time emulating Denver well due to stark differences in politics and ideologies. A lot of people who move from OKC to Denver do it more for the cultural differences than their desire for an urban experience. OKC is going to have a difficult time getting there with the current crop at 23rd and Lincoln. I would really like to see that change.

Pete
04-29-2015, 01:40 PM
My point was not that there weren't MORE and BIGGER things (they are 6x OKC's size and one of the largest metro areas in the U.S., after all), it was that many of the main reasons to move and spend money there are evaporating because OKC offers so much more.

Some people are always going to be drawn by bigger cities, just like people in Dallas longing for New York or Chicago.

I'm just pointing out many of the things OKC simply didn't have at all before (good restaurants, bars, shopping, hotels, urban areas) we now do have and when you pair that with the incredible hassle of living in a place like Dallas, I think a fundamental shift has occurred where most locals no longer feel as compelled to move or visit there.

Swake
04-29-2015, 02:45 PM
My point was not that there weren't MORE and BIGGER things (they are 6x OKC's size and one of the largest metro areas in the U.S., after all), it was that many of the main reasons to move and spend money there are evaporating because OKC offers so much more.

Some people are always going to be drawn by bigger cities, just like people in Dallas longing for New York or Chicago.

I'm just pointing out many of the things OKC simply didn't have at all before (good restaurants, bars, shopping, hotels, urban areas) we now do have and when you pair that with the incredible hassle of living in a place like Dallas, I think a fundamental shift has occurred where most locals now feel as compelled to move or visit there.

Oklahoma City today is a better and more livable city than Dallas, right now. It doesn't have the crushing traffic, it's less expensive with higher overall disposable income and has almost all the amenities Dallas has that are really meaningful to people and those amenities in Oklahoma City are are more accessible in cost, time and difficulty. Any increase in income is more than offset in costs and any improvement in the job market is negated by always having to factor in commutes into job searches.

Oklahoma City has a more cohesive culture and happier residents. If you want to live in a city where you are going to spend 2+ hours a day in your car, live in a smaller house/apartment where you know none of your neighbors, where the only accessible restaurants are expensive chains with long waits. Any kind of real local or unique restaurants, any arts or sports are going to be far more expensive and involve a serious investment in travel and time. So maybe OKC doesn't have the Cowboys, but, most people in DFW don't actually ever go to a game, and if you would like to go to a game every once in awhile from Oklahoma City you can with only an increase in drive time of a few hours. In Oklahoma City you are saving more time than that in your car every couple of days.

Other cities the size of Dallas with the built in difficulty of movement and expense that comes with large cities more than make up for it with real transit, Other large cities can offset cost by a couple being able to live with only one car, or no car if they choose. Other large cities have real walkable residential areas that have history and a feeling of community. Neighborhoods with local shops and restaurants in them and not just bland chains in seas of parking. Other large cities have so many more amenities than Dallas and amenities that if driving is difficult you can take transit to get to. Even if you have to live in smaller apartments in larger cities you have a coffee shop and a bodega without even leaving the building, and a gym, bank, deli and corner pub without leaving your block. Does that sound like Dallas? Dallas has thousands of square miles of suburbia with crushing traffic and no real opportunity to even get to what few semi-urban areas it has. Dallas is Edmond x70 with your job and hour away and Bricktown two hours away.

Pete
04-29-2015, 02:58 PM
Oklahoma City today is a better and more livable city than Dallas, right now. It doesn't have the crushing traffic, it's less expensive with higher overall disposable income and has almost all the amenities Dallas has that are really meaningful to people and those amenities in Oklahoma City are are more accessible in cost, time and difficulty. Any increase in income is more than offset in costs and any improvement in the job market is negated by always having to factor in commutes into job searches.

Yes, this was my point.

OKC has always been miles more livable but also miles more boring. Now, we've caught up a great deal in most areas and thus the huge increase in hassle is often not worth the reward of the moreness that cities like Dallas offer.

If Big D had beaches or mountains or something that OKC simply doesn't have at all, then that would be different. But it's always been the shopping, the nightlife, the restaurants, the jobs. And in all those areas, OKC is starting to be able to hold it's own.

There is simply tons to do in OKC now just about all the time, and for young people that's a big deal.

bradh
04-29-2015, 07:38 PM
Other than a couple of chain retail stores we always had where we lived (Houston/Phoenix/DFW), there isn't much I miss about DFW now that I've been here 6 years.

Teo9969
04-29-2015, 08:17 PM
A lot of the things that people would like to see here will start popping up now that the local economy is picking up major steam. OKC sort of "stopped the bleeding" with the original MAPS and is only now for the first time in a long time, seeing the benefit of a greater percentage of citizens' money staying in town.

I'm sure the amount of money staying local that previously would flow to other economies is in the hundreds of millions of dollars annually.

Hundreds of millions of dollars that fall mostly to the hands of the bottom 70%. Give them more money to establish a stronger middle class and after awhile, it makes sense for EVERYONE to build bigger/better amenities.

On the list of things that Dallas has that OKC doesn't: DART. Public transit there is definitely ahead.

But overall, I think we're fast reaching a point where Dallas will become an afterthought for your average OKC citizen. Maybe a visit every 2 or 3 years instead of once or twice a year. People are instead going to hitting up other cities like Chicago, New York, LA, and smaller regional players like Denver, KC, and Austin.

And lastly…Houston is a far more compelling city, to me, than Dallas. It's not as "nice" as Dallas, but the culture is tangibly more vibrant.

bradh
04-29-2015, 08:23 PM
You're absolutely right on Houston, for all it's unzoned sprawling madness, that city has got tons of culture (but also some of the same income creep issues adaniel talked about in Dallas).

bchris02
04-29-2015, 10:10 PM
But overall, I think we're fast reaching a point where Dallas will become an afterthought for your average OKC citizen. Maybe a visit every 2 or 3 years instead of once or twice a year. People are instead going to hitting up other cities like Chicago, New York, LA, and smaller regional players like Denver, KC, and Austin.

This puts me in mind of Charlotte's relationship with Atlanta. Charlotte is roughly the same distance from Atlanta as OKC is from Dallas. Atlanta is barely on the radar for people in Charlotte these days. Charlotte has reached the point where it offers almost everything Atlanta does but without the traffic and hassle of a 5+ million population metro area. Most people in Charlotte either go to the coast or up to the DC area for weekend trips. People don't envy nor do they desire to move to Atlanta. That hasn't always been the case.

I don't think OKC is at the point where it can say that yet. There is still quite a bit Dallas offers that OKC doesn't, most of which has been explained in this thread. I also think for people who really want a big city experience, OKC will never be able to compare to a 6 million population metro and Dallas is a great place to live for those wanting a big city experience in this region of the country.

However, I think within the next 10-15 years, this city will get to the point where regular trips to Dallas won't cross the mind of the average OKC resident, and there will be less envy and/or desire to move there.

One more thing I almost posted earlier that Dallas has that OKC doesn't is a wider variety of non-chain late-night restaurants. Waffle Champion is going 24-hours except for Monday in July though so that will really help OKC in this area.

Teo9969
04-29-2015, 11:37 PM
The thing is, we're not talking about big amenities. We're talking about every day life. If you're lacking something in your everyday life, you'll go find it elsewhere, even if you stay put, you'll travel more.

With those things we lack fast running out, Dallas becomes for OKC citizens what it has always been: A completely lackluster city for its size. I'm not sure Dallas is worthy of a Top 25 spot in major US cities to visit list (Though Forth Worth might could be).

The best word I can think to describe Dallas: Sterile

dankrutka
04-30-2015, 01:54 AM
I can't imagine anyone looking for urbanism would choose Dallas. And for public transportation the DART is pretty bad. I've walked Dallas a lot and it's just not a good place for pedestrians generally. Try walking the 5 blocks from American Airlines to McKinney through the core of the city and you'll see what I mean...

I like Dallas fine. It's just not that good at urbanism for its size and density.

Mr. Cotter
04-30-2015, 07:26 AM
I'm from Dallas, and all of my family still lives there. I probably spend 10 to 15 days a year there now. When we're not spending time with family, my wife and I make sure to take advantage of a few amenities we don't have in OKC including:

1) Art museums. The DMA and Kimbell make the OKCMOA look like a college studio art show.
2) Shopping. My wife loves Northpark. I wear a suit and tie to work, and my options are much better in Dallas.
3) Independent theaters. I'm still surprised we don't have a decent option here.

That's about it. For most other things, we prefer OKC. I'd rather work, own a home, drive, and eat in OKC.

sooner88
04-30-2015, 07:42 AM
Rail from the airport to the CBD would be a gamechanger. The drive to our airport is not extremely far, but the ability to get to your hotel and not have the need for an Uber/cab would be huge.

progressiveboy
04-30-2015, 08:24 AM
Dallas traffic can be a real challenge. However, toll roads are becoming more common place in DFW to move traffic, however, what I see major is congestion on the toll roads and is not really serving it's purpose. OKC is slowly becoming a more developing city but must continue the momentum to get those coveted retailers and venues. I am aware that Boeing and PayCom are looking to expand with high paying jobs but it would help if OKC was a little more aggressive in seeking out HQ's. Just this week alone, Dallas announced another California company moving HQ to DFW. If it can be done in Dallas, it could be done in OKC.

bchris02
04-30-2015, 08:26 AM
I can't imagine anyone looking for urbanism would choose Dallas. And for public transportation the DART is pretty bad. I've walked Dallas a lot and it's just not a good place for pedestrians generally. Try walking the 5 blocks from American Airlines to McKinney through the core of the city and you'll see what I mean...

I like Dallas fine. It's just not that good at urbanism for its size and density.

If somebody has family in OKC and want to move somewhere more urban but don't want to move very far, then Dallas is a perfect option. Also, while Dallas isn't NYC (and who would expect it to be), I personally find it to be satisfying as far as urbanism is concerned. I've done a lot of exploring in Dallas on foot and found most of their urban districts are well-developed, polished, and interconnected. You don't have the huge gaps of open land or dilapidated structures that you have in OKC. If somebody wanted to live in a "finished" urban city and doesn't want to wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there and also doesn't want to move to the coast, Dallas is a perfect choice.

ou48A
04-30-2015, 08:35 AM
Oklahoma City doesn’t really have anything like this…. The Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Garden….

It sits on the estate of an OU geology graduate.

Featured Gardens - Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Gardens (http://www.dallasarboretum.org/named-gardens-features)

hfry
04-30-2015, 08:37 AM
Blair Humphreys had a great retweet (https://twitter.com/myurbangen/status/593560372738535424) yesterday that I think fits into this conversation. It said "Demand for walkable places in Dallas is 68%. Supply is 4% via Farr and #CNU23" While I'm not saying OKC is more Urban or walkable than Dallas by any stretch of the imagination I think it has a long way to go to actually be considered urban or walkable. Sure they have pockets that are great but in general Dallas is one giant sprawl and I feel OKC in its youth tried to sprawl out like Dallas. Thankfully both cities are understanding the merits of places that are walkable.

Swake
04-30-2015, 08:41 AM
If somebody has family in OKC and want to move somewhere more urban but don't want to move very far, then Dallas is a perfect option. Also, while Dallas isn't NYC (and who would expect it to be), I personally find it to be satisfying as far as urbanism is concerned. I've done a lot of exploring in Dallas on foot and found most of their urban districts are well-developed, polished, and interconnected. You don't have the huge gaps of open land or dilapidated structures that you have in OKC. If somebody wanted to live in a "finished" urban city and doesn't want to wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there and also doesn't want to move to the coast, Dallas is a perfect choice.

If you think Dallas is a "perfect choice" as a "finished urban city" then you have spent no time in real cities. Dallas isn't anymore urban than Oklahoma City.

Dallas' peers are The Bay Area, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia and the like. Dallas pales badly in comparison, in all ways.

OklahomaNick
04-30-2015, 08:42 AM
From a retail perspective, one big difference is the high end luxury brands in Dallas (which I do not care about nor do 95% of people), but it is a status thing.
Money / tax dollars does leave our state because of our lack of high end options.

It would also be nice to have more than one Mall option. Quail Springs is getting a lot better, but Penn Square is king for now.
A second Apple Store and Whole Foods in OKC would be great!

OKC has come a LONG ways Retail wise, and we we are getting there as MANY national retailers are looking at locating/expanding in OKC. The next 5 to 10 years could be nuts!

OH! And Dallas has QuikTrip!

bchris02
04-30-2015, 08:47 AM
Blair Humphreys had a great retweet (https://twitter.com/myurbangen/status/593560372738535424) yesterday that I think fits into this conversation. It said "Demand for walkable places in Dallas is 68%. Supply is 4% via Farr and #CNU23" While I'm not saying OKC is more Urban or walkable than Dallas by any stretch of the imagination I think it has a long way to go to actually be considered urban or walkable. Sure they have pockets that are great but in general Dallas is one giant sprawl and I feel OKC in its youth tried to sprawl out like Dallas. Thankfully both cities are understanding the merits of places that are walkable.

I would consider it more than "pockets" that are great. The entire urban core is walkable from downtown all the way to the Park Cities. It's continuous urbanism and its great. OKC's districts, at this point in time, don't even come close. That's not to say Dallas is perfect or that they can't improve as an urban city because they can. Dallas shouldn't be written off as one big sprawling mess because that's far from the truth. I think OKC can get there (on a smaller scale) in 10-15 years. OKC has only been at this since about 2000 and it's going to take longer than 15 years to fix 40 years of neglect.

Urbanized
04-30-2015, 09:08 AM
As I see it:


Hub status for a (the?) major airline, which is a major factor in...
Corporate jobs and economic diversity, which leads to...
Large concentrations of wealth, which leads to...
Top tier national retail options and cultural amenities

That said, few cities in America can compete on that level, and yet I can think of many cities where I would prefer to live, obviously including OKC. Dallas has all of the amenities and economic opportunities of a top 10 (if not top 5) U.S. city, but none of the soul. In fact, I think you could say that Dallas has actually sold its soul.

Honestly I think in many ways OKC already offers a superior QUALITY of life, including some unique amenities, ease of access to all parts of town (albeit by automobile only), excellent (and dense) local food scene, plus general sense of community.

I think inclusion of the Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art in your OKC calculation PLUS the rapidly-improving concert scene and already-excellent local scene combine to greatly close the cultural gap.

HangryHippo
04-30-2015, 09:11 AM
As I see it:


Hub status for a (the?) major airline, which is a major factor in...
Corporate jobs and economic diversity, which leads to...
Large concentrations of wealth, which leads to...
Top tier national retail options and cultural amenities



Damn fine list, Urbanized. I think you nailed it.

bchris02
04-30-2015, 09:20 AM
From a retail perspective, one big difference is the high end luxury brands in Dallas (which I do not care about nor do 95% of people), but it is a status thing.
Money / tax dollars does leave our state because of our lack of high end options.

OKC will likely never be able to have some of the high-end luxury retail options that Dallas does. The market here just isn't large enough. It could and should be much better here though. I am hoping with the coming development of Chisholm Creek and Glimcher that OKC finally starts pulling its weight as a city of 1.3 million people on the retail front.


OH! And Dallas has QuikTrip!

OKC has OnCue though which in my opinion is as good as QuikTrip. I am more envious of the grocery stores in DFW. Kroger and Tom Thumb would be very nice to have in OKC.

zachj7
04-30-2015, 09:27 AM
Dallas metroplex in my opinion has some major advantages over OKC.

Advantages
1) Theme parks. OKC has at least something, but nothing of the magnitude of DFW. This is understandable.
2) Grocery stores: Kroger, HEB, Central Market- OKC has nothing like this.
3)Faux Town Center: OKC has nothing of the magnitude of Southlake Town Square. Southlake Town Square (http://www.southlaketownsquare.com/shopping_alpha.php) OKC doesn't even have anything like The Shops at Park Lane. The Shops at Park Lane | Dallas Shopping Center (http://shopsatparklane.com/)
4) Ikea, Costco, and other shopping you cannot find in OKC. People that have moved from larger areas with these stores will go the distance and spend money in Dallas instead of OKC for the experience.
5) DFW is laid out in a much more organized manner.
6) Large airport with many direct destinations in the US and abroad. Many airlines to choose from. Whether you like it or not, a family of four+ economically would make more sense to drive down to DFW and then fly rather than flying out of OKC.

Disadvantages
1) Traffic is a million times better in OKC
2) Weather (by a little)

One other note to make is restaurants. Dallas has a much bigger variety but I believe OKC is pulling its weight when it comes to population here. Some may disagree. OKC has a great restaurant scene. OKC can work on its seafood restaurants.

dankrutka
04-30-2015, 09:33 AM
If somebody has family in OKC and want to move somewhere more urban but don't want to move very far, then Dallas is a perfect option. Also, while Dallas isn't NYC (and who would expect it to be), I personally find it to be satisfying as far as urbanism is concerned. I've done a lot of exploring in Dallas on foot and found most of their urban districts are well-developed, polished, and interconnected. You don't have the huge gaps of open land or dilapidated structures that you have in OKC. If somebody wanted to live in a "finished" urban city and doesn't want to wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there and also doesn't want to move to the coast, Dallas is a perfect choice.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I see a lot of gaps in Dallas' urban environment. Maybe I frequent different parts of the metro than you, but a lot of areas are not connected well to other areas... I just don't agree that Dallas is in any way "finished," but to each his own.

Again, Dallas has a lot more density, overall amenities, etc, but I just don't see it as a particularly well done urban city. I'm going to see Jeff Speck speak in Dallas this weekend so maybe I'll ask him how he thinks Dallas does on the urban scale... ;)

sooner88
04-30-2015, 09:38 AM
If you think Dallas is a "perfect choice" as a "finished urban city" then you have spent no time in real cities. Dallas isn't anymore urban than Oklahoma City.

Dallas' peers are The Bay Area, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia and the like. Dallas pales badly in comparison, in all ways.

I.e. places you can live without a car. I don't know a person who lives in Dallas who does not own a car and use it on a regular basis. On the flipside, I don't know a single person who lives in any of those cities (or Chicago, NYC, etc.) who have owned a car since they moved there.

dankrutka
04-30-2015, 09:42 AM
I.e. places you can live without a car. I don't know a person who lives in Dallas who does not own a car and use it on a regular basis. On the flipside, I don't know a single person who lives in any of those cities (or Chicago, NYC, etc.) who have owned a car since they moved there.

All of my Dallas friends live in the core and I can never get them to take the DART anywhere. It's a total afterthought as a mode of transportation for most people in my experiences. And so many of the stations are just near parking lots, not urban places. The other day I was going to ride the DART down and then my friend was going to have to pick me up because the station wasn't close to anything... so I just drove. This is kind of what I'm talking about with Dallas' urbanism, not that Dallas isn't a neat city.

zachj7
04-30-2015, 09:50 AM
Well, let’s start off with the fact that Dallas sucks as a big city. It’s one of, if not the, very worst large metros in the nation. All the pain and congestion and difficulty of a big city with so little in return. Dallas isn’t urban, it isn’t cool, it doesn’t have history, or culture, or arts. Everyone I know that lives there is working on leaving. I have no idea how it continues to grow like it does.

Think about this, Dallas-Ft Worth has a population that is rapidly approaching the size of Washington-Baltimore, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami and the Bay Area. It’s only a third smaller than Chicago! Think about what those cities have to offer compared to Dallas, those cities are now DFW’s peers. The truth is that Dallas and Houston absolutely suck compared real large cities.

I pointedly have not mentioned the other peer city, Atlanta, because Atlanta sucks too.

Quit trying to be Dallas.

Dallas has it's work cut out for it, but it's kind of hard to be a cool urban city if you aren't on the coast. They work with what they got, and have done a lot. I agree DFW doesn't quite level up to SF, Philly, DC. I think an obvious comparably city would be Minneapolis not because they are both on I35 and each have a major satellite city, but possibly due to similar amenities?

bchris02
04-30-2015, 09:58 AM
All of my Dallas friends live in the core and I can never get them to take the DART anywhere. It's a total afterthought as a mode of transportation for most people in my experiences. And so many of the stations are just near parking lots, not urban places. The other day I was going to ride the DART down and then my friend was going to have to pick me up because the station wasn't close to anything... so I just drove. This is kind of what I'm talking about with Dallas' urbanism, not that Dallas isn't a neat city.

I agree with you on the DART stations. It is somewhat annoying that many of them are in areas where there is absolutely nothing around them. That's what you get though when you are late to the public transportation game and it's an afterthought rather than having the city develop organically around the rail system. If OKC added light rail it would also have that problem for many years until development patterns shifted. There are some cool stations though in Dallas like Cityplace and Mockingbird Station.

AP
04-30-2015, 09:58 AM
Dallas has it's work cut out for it, but it's kind of hard to be a cool urban city if you aren't on the coast. They work with what they got, and have done a lot. I agree DFW doesn't quite level up to SF, Philly, DC. I think an obvious comparably city would be Minneapolis not because they are both on I35 and each have a major satellite city, but possibly due to similar amenities?

Yes very hard to be a cool urban city if you're not on the coast. Chicago, Denver and Austin accidentally did it.

Pete
04-30-2015, 09:59 AM
^

Denver, too.

bchris02
04-30-2015, 10:06 AM
Dallas has it's work cut out for it, but it's kind of hard to be a cool urban city if you aren't on the coast. They work with what they got, and have done a lot. I agree DFW doesn't quite level up to SF, Philly, DC. I think an obvious comparably city would be Minneapolis not because they are both on I35 and each have a major satellite city, but possibly due to similar amenities?

I agree with the Minneapolis comparison.


Yes very hard to be a cool urban city if you're not on the coast. Chicago, Denver and Austin accidentally did it.

Chicago is a special case and their lakefront might as well be the coast. Denver doesn't have the coast but they have the Rocky Mountains. Austin has the Texas hill country but when you get down to it, its live music scene, tech economy, and its liberal, live and let live culture has been the driver that has made it what it is.

AP
04-30-2015, 10:08 AM
I agree with the Minneapolis comparison.



Chicago is a special case and their lakefront might as well be the coast. Denver doesn't have the coast but they have the Rocky Mountains. Austin has the Texas hill country but when you get down to it, its live music scene, tech economy, and its liberal, live and let live culture has been the driver that has made it what it is.

What does the Rocky Mountains and Texas hill country have to do with being an urban city?

bchris02
04-30-2015, 10:23 AM
What does the Rocky Mountains and Texas hill country have to do with being an urban city?

You mentioned that it's hard to be a cool, urban city if you aren't on the coast, but I would say being near mountains is also a catalyst. Plains cities, like OKC and Dallas, have a more difficult time because they have to rely solely on built environment and/or culture.

Pete
04-30-2015, 10:26 AM
If anyone is trying to draw comparisons between Minneapolis and Dallas, you don't know much about Minneapolis.

It's incredibly urban, green, progressive and liberal. Dallas is virtually none of those things.

Minneapolis is simply one of the best planned and truly urban cities around with tons of public transportation and bike lanes. It's a million times better than Dallas in almost every way apart from the weather.

Swake
04-30-2015, 10:50 AM
Dallas has it's work cut out for it, but it's kind of hard to be a cool urban city if you aren't on the coast. They work with what they got, and have done a lot. I agree DFW doesn't quite level up to SF, Philly, DC. I think an obvious comparably city would be Minneapolis not because they are both on I35 and each have a major satellite city, but possibly due to similar amenities?

Philadelphia and Washington aren't on the ocean. Or even particularly near the coast. They are river cities and don't have mountains.

adaniel
04-30-2015, 02:24 PM
That said, few cities in America can compete on that level, and yet I can think of many cities where I would prefer to live, obviously including OKC. Dallas has all of the amenities and economic opportunities of a top 10 (if not top 5) U.S. city, but none of the soul. In fact, I think you could say that Dallas has actually sold its soul.


Its not just perception, Dallas literally did "sell it soul" back in the day.

After the JFK assassination in 1963, Dallas was branded as the "City of Hate" full of kooky John Birchers and pro-segregationists never mind the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was actually a commie sympathizer. Suddenly self aware of their terrible image, a lot of leaders in Dallas at the time like Stanley Marcus (of Neiman Marcus fame) and Erik Jonsson (founder of TI) started pushing for a grand plan to completely remake the city and literally scrub the city free from its past. A lot of that is what you see today. FWIW if anyone wants a good read, the book "The Dallas Myth" is an excellent read on not just Dallas, but urban centers in the sunbelt (a lot of which can be applied to OKC)

And to piggyback on that, there is a school of thought that in order to make a "New Dallas," the city kinda sacrificed itself at the altar of the North Texas region. Starting with the decision to team up with Ft Worth to build DFW Airport while dramatically limiting activity from Love Field. It was the spark that has help this area grow exponentially, but surprisingly little of that has actually benefited Dallas. Same with DART Rail. The train system here is great if you want to get from the downtown to the burbs, but quite terrible if you actually want to get around Dallas. A big reason for that is the suburbs threatened on several occasions to pull out of DART funding if they did not get full light rail service by a certain time. So what you have is just an overgrown commuter rail system rather than true urban public transit. These are just few of many examples.

Because of this, the city, to this day, is at war with itself. And until recently, the prevailing thought is to compete with the burbs, you have to be like the burbs. I think that's where a lot of the blandness here comes from. For a big city there is not a lot of truly urban areas, and what is here is extremely expensive, partly because its so rare. Homes in M Streets, a very similar area to Edgemere Park, runs about $300/sq ft. Condos in Uptown are roughly the same. Park Cities is now topping $500/sq ft. These areas are largely off limits to even upper middle income families.

zookeeper
04-30-2015, 02:30 PM
If anyone is trying to draw comparisons between Minneapolis and Dallas, you don't know much about Minneapolis.

It's incredibly urban, green, progressive and liberal. Dallas is virtually none of those things.

Minneapolis is simply one of the best planned and truly urban cities around with tons of public transportation and bike lanes. It's a million times better than Dallas in almost every way apart from the weather.

Absolutely. As for the weather, there's not a better city in the summer than Minneapolis. Absolutely perfect (for me). It would be a toss-up weather-wise, Texas heat in the summer or Minneapolis cold in the winter. Because of the extent of Minneapolis urbanity, I would have to lean that direction.

G.Walker
04-30-2015, 02:55 PM
Jobs, jobs, and more jobs.

Dallas has more high paying jobs that are not just focused in the oil industry, that would attract any college grad. Most of OKC's high paying jobs are in the oil industry, outside of that, you have government, and medical jobs.

What the Dallas job market provides is they have the mid-high paying jobs, like in insurance, banking, & tech. Like Oklahoma Nick stressed above, there are many diverse Fortune 500 industries to choose from. I graduated with a MPA back in 2011 and it took me over a year to find a decent paying job in a industry that I didn't even study for, lol. If I applied for jobs in Dallas with my Masters degree, I probably would have found a job in a couple months.

Pete
04-30-2015, 04:07 PM
^

Yet, OKC's unemployment rate is lower.

I don't think nearly as many people are moving to Dallas from Oklahoma for jobs as just 5 years ago and I bet that trend continues to accelerate.

Also, saying "most of OKC's high paying jobs are in the oil industry" is false. No way more than 50% of jobs paying more than $100k or so are in oil and gas. Most the well-paid people I know in town do not work in that industry and there are loads and loads of banks, legal, biotech, medical, engineering and general management jobs outside O&G. You would be surprised how many government / military jobs are well-paid as well.

If you look at the list of largest employers in the City area, you'll see there are only two energy companies in the top 30.

Only a small fraction of people in Central Oklahoma are actually employed by oil & gas. Certainly less than 5% and likely even well less than that.

bchris02
04-30-2015, 05:09 PM
Its not just perception, Dallas literally did "sell it soul" back in the day.

I want to say I don't think either city can claim soul or having respect for their history as a strong point. Both made mistakes that have handicapped their vitality in big ways. I don't know a lot about Dallas history so correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe they went near as far with urban renewal as OKC did.

Imagine this city if it would have survived to this day. Imagine it fully revitalized and inhabited. Imagine how much soul and character it would have.

http://www.nps.gov/okci/learn/historyculture/images/downtown-okc-areial.jpg

I think if the urban core OKC had in the 1950s still stood today, given the younger generation's preferences for urban areas this city could easily be in league with Austin and Denver.


For a big city there is not a lot of truly urban areas, and what is here is extremely expensive, partly because its so rare.

Dallas may not be San Francisco, Boston, or NYC but its dishonest to say it has no urban lifestyle or that its nothing but a huge sprawling mess. It is expensive, I agree, but no moreso than the urban life is in a major coastal city.

Architect2010
04-30-2015, 06:37 PM
5) DFW is laid out in a much more organized manner.

Absolutely not. I don't think you could get more organized than OKC's grid system.

I will say this, and it doesn't affect a lot of people, but I felt as if Dallas' LGBT scene was oceans and leagues better than our own community. We could certainly do better in providing an all-inclusive environment like Dallas' Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn to our own citizens. I would think a city of 1.3 million should be able to nurture and sustain a small but vibrant LGBT community. One that doesn't feel like a ghetto, forgotten about, and crumbling away. Then again, the business owners along 39th St don't ever seem too keen to invest very much back into their buildings and the city just seems to ignore the sad state of the street, pavement, lighting, and sidewalks in that area. Hopefully that changes over time, but for reasons unnamed, I am not hopeful.

I only state this because I know for a fact Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn is a huge draw for many people in the LGBT community. A lot of my friends/acquaintances/local celebrities drive to Dallas 2-3 times a year just to experience a variety of venues, shows, bars, clubs, in an urban and walkable area that outshines any district in OKC BUT Bricktown. It's a huge draw and I would think that Dallas probably pulls a lot of our LGBT population away from Oklahoma.

Not really sure what can be done about that though.

Rivalyn
04-30-2015, 07:32 PM
^

Yet, OKC's unemployment rate is lower.

I don't think nearly as many people are moving to Dallas from Oklahoma for jobs as just 5 years ago and I bet that trend continues to accelerate.


It'd be interesting to see any correlating data on that last point. Absolutely developments like Chisholm Creek are a HUGE step in the right direction in terms of developing a place for graduates to play as they start their careers. Still in looking at my MBA class, half are either from an energy company and thus their company is paying for it or they're expecting to leave after graduation. People I know graduating soon with a Bachelor degree are definitely somewhat indicative of your point in that there's a lot more talk of staying around but that transforms as they want to climb in a corporation. An interesting note made by an MBA friend was that they were not able to find any leadership/development positions upon graduating with their MBA, but those types of positions are quite common in Dallas. So in essence we just need to attract even larger companies, HQs, and leadership presences here and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't reverse that movement to Dallas. Nice job Boeing on that front!

bchris02
04-30-2015, 08:00 PM
I will say this, and it doesn't affect a lot of people, but I felt as if Dallas' LGBT scene was oceans and leagues better than our own community. We could certainly do better in providing an all-inclusive environment like Dallas' Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn to our own citizens. I would think a city of 1.3 million should be able to nurture and sustain a small but vibrant LGBT community. One that doesn't feel like a ghetto, forgotten about, and crumbling away. Then again, the business owners along 39th St don't ever seem too keen to invest very much back into their buildings and the city just seems to ignore the sad state of the street, pavement, lighting, and sidewalks in that area. Hopefully that changes over time, but for reasons unnamed, I am not hopeful.

You make some good points here. One thing is that most growing, progressive cities have, at least on the surface, much more inclusive cultures than OKC does in terms of alternative lifestyles. I am sure this does draw a lot of people away from OKC to Dallas, Austin, Denver, etc. The LGBT community statistically tends to include a lot high-wage earners and since they usually don't have children, they have a lot of money to spend. This is a community most cities are trying to attract rather than push away.

I don't think it would be that difficult to improve 39th Street in a way similar to what they are currently doing on Western Ave. Unfortunately, while I would hope that OKC has progressed some since Kirk Humphreys tried to shut down gay pride, I think a city-funded effort to improve the gay strip would be met with significant backlash. The area's best hope for improvement is in the hands of business owners and possibly donations from a wealthy individual to fund it.



I only state this because I know for a fact Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn is a huge draw for many people in the LGBT community. A lot of my friends/acquaintances/local celebrities drive to Dallas 2-3 times a year just to experience a variety of venues, shows, bars, clubs, in an urban and walkable area that outshines any district in OKC BUT Bricktown. It's a huge draw and I would think that Dallas probably pulls a lot of our LGBT population away from Oklahoma.

Not really sure what can be done about that though.

What it will take is more LGBT people and their allies staying in OKC and pushing for change. For that to happen though, this needs to be a city that embraces its LGBT community.

Swake
04-30-2015, 08:58 PM
I think in general gay ghettos are a poor idea for a truly inclusive city. This is nothing to strive for.

okclee
04-30-2015, 09:41 PM
The only complaint that I have with Okc today is with airport and the lack of direct flights.

zachj7
05-01-2015, 08:58 AM
If anyone is trying to draw comparisons between Minneapolis and Dallas, you don't know much about Minneapolis.

It's incredibly urban, green, progressive and liberal. Dallas is virtually none of those things.

Minneapolis is simply one of the best planned and truly urban cities around with tons of public transportation and bike lanes. It's a million times better than Dallas in almost every way apart from the weather.

I was actually talking about how it is laid out rather than social and political. One can draw comparisons to highways, suburbs, roads, and layout to the DFW metro. I do agree Minneapolis-St. Paul is better than DWF.

zachj7
05-01-2015, 09:02 AM
Absolutely not. I don't think you could get more organized than OKC's grid system.

I will say this, and it doesn't affect a lot of people, but I felt as if Dallas' LGBT scene was oceans and leagues better than our own community. We could certainly do better in providing an all-inclusive environment like Dallas' Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn to our own citizens. I would think a city of 1.3 million should be able to nurture and sustain a small but vibrant LGBT community. One that doesn't feel like a ghetto, forgotten about, and crumbling away. Then again, the business owners along 39th St don't ever seem too keen to invest very much back into their buildings and the city just seems to ignore the sad state of the street, pavement, lighting, and sidewalks in that area. Hopefully that changes over time, but for reasons unnamed, I am not hopeful.

I only state this because I know for a fact Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn is a huge draw for many people in the LGBT community. A lot of my friends/acquaintances/local celebrities drive to Dallas 2-3 times a year just to experience a variety of venues, shows, bars, clubs, in an urban and walkable area that outshines any district in OKC BUT Bricktown. It's a huge draw and I would think that Dallas probably pulls a lot of our LGBT population away from Oklahoma.

Not really sure what can be done about that though.

I disagree. OKC is one of the most poorly planned cities I have ever seen. The grid system is nice, but just looking from above, one has to wonder why the metro looks like one discombobulated irregular shaped blob rather than other cities that have a distinct center with better access to suburbs. I was speaking more of the metropolitan area.

BG918
05-01-2015, 09:04 AM
Minneapolis is really a fantastic city and one of the best without having a natural asset like Denver has with the mountains, Chicago with the lakeshore, Miami with the beach, etc. The weather though will always prevent it from booming and moving into that next tier of cities. I've been in the winter and it's miserable, weeks will go by without it getting above freezing and snow that falls in November is on the ground until March. The people that live there make it work with ice hockey, snowmobiling and other cold weather activities but for many Americans that is not a life they want to live.

Colbafone
05-01-2015, 09:33 AM
Absolutely not. I don't think you could get more organized than OKC's grid system.

I will say this, and it doesn't affect a lot of people, but I felt as if Dallas' LGBT scene was oceans and leagues better than our own community. We could certainly do better in providing an all-inclusive environment like Dallas' Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn to our own citizens. I would think a city of 1.3 million should be able to nurture and sustain a small but vibrant LGBT community. One that doesn't feel like a ghetto, forgotten about, and crumbling away. Then again, the business owners along 39th St don't ever seem too keen to invest very much back into their buildings and the city just seems to ignore the sad state of the street, pavement, lighting, and sidewalks in that area. Hopefully that changes over time, but for reasons unnamed, I am not hopeful.

I only state this because I know for a fact Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn is a huge draw for many people in the LGBT community. A lot of my friends/acquaintances/local celebrities drive to Dallas 2-3 times a year just to experience a variety of venues, shows, bars, clubs, in an urban and walkable area that outshines any district in OKC BUT Bricktown. It's a huge draw and I would think that Dallas probably pulls a lot of our LGBT population away from Oklahoma.

Not really sure what can be done about that though.

To be fair though, the Oak Lawn area is gorgeous. It is the best part of Dallas. It might be the best looking LBGT area in the nation. I have a couple of friends who live in a few of the residential towers there, and everything about it is fantastic (except for rent, good lord it's expensive). Dallas's gay community, to me, rivals ANY other city's. Their Pride festival is an almost week long celebration, culminating in a pretty nice parade. The clubs and shopping/restaurants in the area are great as well.

Anyway, all that to say, we have zero chance of replicating the Dallas LBGT community, for several reasons. I do wish we could at least turn it into its own neat district, a la Midtown or Plaza or something. Especially right off I-44, it could be a really cool area for those interested in it, maybe we could get Mrs. Fallin to help promote the area!

Pete
05-01-2015, 09:44 AM
^

Right, a decent step for the LGBT scene in OKC would be to do a much better job with the strip on 39th west of Penn.

It's still a relic of the old days where the industrial appearance and discrete signage was all part of not wanting to draw attention to themselves due to social pressures.

In other words, we have a long, long way to go in this area as compared to most cities, let alone the cities like Dallas that have an amazing situation.

Bullbear
05-01-2015, 10:27 AM
Hey we finally got some sidewalks and a crosswalk on 39th.. thats progress..lol Id love to see some more life in the area during the day, and clean up the appearance. some large landscaping pots with trees down the side or something. its a small district but could be very nice with the right investment.

catch22
05-01-2015, 10:27 AM
The only complaint that I have with Okc today is with airport and the lack of direct flights.

This keeps getting repeated, however we have nonstop service on major network carriers to:

Atlanta
Baltimore
Charlotte
Chicago (ORD and MDW)
Dallas (DFW and DAL)
Denver
Detroit
Houston (HOU and IAH)
St Louis
Los Angeles
Las Vegas
Minneapolis
New York (Newark)
Phoenix
Salt Lake City
San Francisco
Seattle
Washington DC (Dulles)

If you are an outstation such as OKC, that's a very healthy offering.

Not enough people use OKC to warrant additional flights beyond what we have. In the future I could see Southwest add Austin, jetBlue might eventually make it in to the market. Alaska recently added Portland to St. Louis, so if they are happy with how SEA performs maybe they could add Portland-OKC, but I'm not holding my breath for that one. (Although would love it if they did)

The majority of future growth at OKC will now come from larger equipment on mature routes such as Denver, Chicago, Houston. Increased frequencies on established but growing routes such as Los Angeles, Charlotte, and San Francisco.

We won't be a hub market. We won't have hundreds of flights a day to hundreds of cities like Dallas. That thinking needs to stop, because it is pure fantasy at this point. We need to utilize the flights we have, and maybe we'll get a few more prize routes. But you won't be flying Oklahoma City to Columbus, OH nonstop anytime soon.