View Full Version : Oklahoma is not in the Midwest, y'all



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Studying Okie
04-08-2015, 08:56 PM
Howdy everybody! More and more I see and hear Oklahoma being referred to as part of the Midwest, and I do not at all agree with this.

Obviously Oklahoma is located halfway between the east and west coasts, and I think most people in Oklahoma use the term "midwest" to reflect that we are in the central part of the country. We use the Midwestern label pretty ambiguously; what do we mean? Do we mean we're in a region that stretches from Texas clear to North Dakota? The Central time zone? The Great Plains? My hunch is that most Oklahomans tend to think of the Midwest as being the states that have a Big 12 school (but I can't prove this, plus West Virginia would be an outlier now).

The problem with calling ourselves Midwestern is that it groups us in with the actual Midwest (the U.S. Census Bureau formerly called these the North Central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin). I don't think we have very much in common with any of these states, except for Kansas and Missouri and maybe Nebraska. Does anyone think that we are in a different region than Texas??

I will definitely acknowledge that different parts of Oklahoma could be attached to different regions, and there are different types of regions (regions based on topography vs. culture), but growing up and still today I think of Oklahoma as being part of the South. I'm interested in what y'all have to say, and thanks for reading.

bchris02
04-08-2015, 09:11 PM
It's not easy to compartmentalize Oklahoma. This is a state where the South, the Midwest, and the Southwestern United States all meet. The Southeastern part of the state is purely Southern. Tulsa has more of a Midwestern vibe than does OKC and western Oklahoma and the Panhandle start to feel more Southwestern. I would agree though that the predominant influence culturally is Southern especially in 2015. If nothing else, the politics and religious affiliation here are in line with the South. There are key differences however between Oklahoma's brand of Southern and what you find in Tennessee or Alabama. Spend a week in Memphis and then come back to Oklahoma City and you'll see a clear difference. Okie culture has a ruggedness to it that is lacking in the Deep South in my opinion and I believe that has a lot to do with how the state was settled and the industries that have driven Oklahoma's economy since the beginning of statehood.

Jake
04-08-2015, 09:19 PM
My mother's side of the family is from Mississippi. That's the South. Oklahoma is like South-lite. But like you said, parts of the state are more Midwestern, Southern, Southwestern, etc.

Oklahoma's kind of in an odd place, haha.

Celebrator
04-08-2015, 11:16 PM
I find that it feels less eastern than the Midwest, less southern than the deep South, and less southwestern than NM or AZ. It really is a nice blend of things that are hallmarks of each place and that they compliment each other well. My preferred term for the region Oklahoma is in is The Heartland. I know it is a bit ambiguous and not an official governmental label, but I think it fits Oklahoma pretty well.

dankrutka
04-08-2015, 11:23 PM
When I've been to the South it's like a culture shock to me. Aside from Little Dixie Southeast Oklahoma, the state is NOT particularly southern culturally (just politically). Oklahoma has much more in common with Texas and Kansas than Louisiana and Mississippi. As stated above, Oklahoma is kind of a convergence of multiple regions both geographically and culturally and doesn't got nearly into any one.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 12:33 AM
My mother's side of the family is from Mississippi. That's the South. Oklahoma is like South-lite. But like you said, parts of the state are more Midwestern, Southern, Southwestern, etc.

Oklahoma's kind of in an odd place, haha.

Mississippi is about the most Southern state there ever was, and while I'm not denying there are differences between Mississippi and Oklahoma, there are also lots of similarities. My family is also from Mississippi (and Alabama and Tennessee), but they made it to Southwest Oklahoma about 125 years ago. They kept on being Southern though.


When I've been to the South it's like a culture shock to me. Aside from Little Dixie Southeast Oklahoma, the state is NOT particularly southern culturally (just politically). Oklahoma has much more in common with Texas and Kansas than Louisiana and Mississippi. As stated above, Oklahoma is kind of a convergence of multiple regions both geographically and culturally and doesn't got nearly into any one.

Could you describe the culture shock? I've never experienced any culture shock while visiting the Deep South, but I've also never spent more than a week over there at a time.

I'm not really sure what you mean that Oklahoma is mostly not culturally Southern, but politically is. Politics tend to be a reflection of culture, and our politics do reflect that our state was predominately settled by people from the South (including Texas). Not only Little Dixie, but also Southwest Oklahoma and Northeast Oklahoma were settled by a majority of people from the South, and the only part of Oklahoma that wasn't is Northwest Oklahoma. You will still hear Southern accents and find Southern Baptists in the Northwest part of the state, despite most people up there not having a Southern background. They picked up those Southern cultural traits right here in Oklahoma.

Thanks for the comments everyone! Keep them coming!!

AP
04-09-2015, 07:27 AM
I feel like we've talked about this extensively here.

fivethirtyeight did a couple pieces on which states think they are the south and midwest.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/current-events-open-topic/10615d1428586024-oklahoma-not-midwest-yall-midwest.jpg

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/current-events-open-topic/10616d1428586025-oklahoma-not-midwest-yall-south.jpg

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/which-states-are-in-the-south/

jccouger
04-09-2015, 08:04 AM
Great Plains.

But as others have said, we have a little southern hospitality and midwestern blue collar blood, as well as dash of southwestern flair.

My entire life I've struggled with what region we fit in, but great plains has really got to be the closest bet.

zachj7
04-09-2015, 09:04 AM
This has been beat to death mainly in other forums, and ideally, it would be nice to keep that there. BUT, since it's been brought it up (again), Oklahoma is more in tune with plains states (Texas, Kansas, Nebraska) than the south IMO. Oklahoma is truly a crossroads state incorporating the south, southwest, west, and midwest. I am not sure some are so disgruntled by this. It's like some people have an agenda to make Oklahoma in the south. Oklahoma is just Oklahoma. The states that surround Oklahoma: Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado combined somewhat make up Oklahoma culturally.

bchris02
04-09-2015, 09:13 AM
This has been beat to death mainly in other forums, and ideally, it would be nice to keep that there. BUT, since it's been brought it up (again), Oklahoma is more in tune with plains states (Texas, Kansas, Nebraska) than the south IMO. Oklahoma is truly a crossroads state incorporating the south, southwest, west, and midwest. I am not sure some are so disgruntled by this. It's like some people have an agenda to make Oklahoma in the south. Oklahoma is just Oklahoma. The states that surround Oklahoma: Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado combined somewhat make up Oklahoma culturally.

Some do have an agenda to make Oklahoma as part of the South and others have the opposite agenda.

It's the socially conservative politics and the predominance of Southern Baptist churches statewide that tilt this argument towards the South. Outside of that, Oklahoma has little in common with Alabama outside of maybe the Little Dixie region.

adaniel
04-09-2015, 09:25 AM
This has been beat to death mainly in other forums, and ideally, it would be nice to keep that there. BUT, since it's been brought it up (again), Oklahoma is more in tune with plains states (Texas, Kansas, Nebraska) than the south IMO. Oklahoma is truly a crossroads state incorporating the south, southwest, west, and midwest. I am not sure some are so disgruntled by this. It's like some people have an agenda to make Oklahoma in the south. Oklahoma is just Oklahoma. The states that surround Oklahoma: Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado combined somewhat make up Oklahoma culturally.

It is beaten to death because Americans love to segregate or separate things. It makes it easier for us to not think about stuff so we have more time to do truly important activities, like tweet or watch the Kardashians. Oklahoma, of course, cannot be grouped so lazily.

While I tend to agree that OK as a midwestern state is somewhat weak, I think part of it stems from the fact that the Great Plains is considered a subset of the Midwest. OK has very little in common with the Great Lakes States, but neither does Nebraska or the Dakotas. Over time "midwest" has just become a catch-all for everything north of a certain latitude between the Appalachians and Rockies, when this area included a multitude of differing and diverse regions. I will say that Tulsa does share a lot of traits with lower midwestern cities like Kansas City, St Louis, Indy, etc. but that is the extent of a midwest influence in the state.

Of all the descriptions I've heard, Southern Plains is probably the most accurate for Oklahoma.

Pete
04-09-2015, 09:31 AM
I agree that the large amount of Southern Baptists is what most closely ties the state to the South.

But Oklahoma was not even a a state during the Civil War, so in that one respect it is completely different than what everyone considers to be Southern states.

My family moved to OK from Wisconsin and I think everyone will agree that Wisconsin is in the Midwest. And culturally, the two states are very, very different. I remember feeling like an outsider when I was young. Part of it was religion; we were Catholic and even the non-Baptist churches in OK seemed evangelical and thus very different. But tons of other things too, like Wisconsin and that area is much more ethnic, in that there were large groups of Germans and Italians and Poles and Greeks and in Oklahoma, you didn't see any of that.

The evangelical Christian thing -- especially in the 60's and 70's when I was kid -- was the dominant cultural force, and still has a big impact today.

However (and I've told this story before) I remember getting strange looks in the 80's when I went with friends to visit a buddy living in Memphis. None of us had much in the way of accents, and I clearly remember getting "where are you from?" looks when I spoke. You would have thought I was from the Bronx; but they just knew I wasn't from around there and that seemed to matter a lot.

Also, in the late 90's I used to travel quite a bit to Atlanta on business. One weekend I stayed over with a friend from grad school and we went to hear live music in a park. I always thought that Atlanta was the Dallas of the South: modern, prosperous and fast-growing. But at the end of the concert they played -- as in the music organizers -- the Battle Hymn of the Republic, and the crowd largely went wild. Completely random; had nothing to do with the gathering. And there were plenty of confederate flags in the back of trucks in the parking lot. I remember thinking, "What the hell is happening here??"

Dustin
04-09-2015, 09:43 AM
I've always said we are South-Central Plains.

dankrutka
04-09-2015, 09:58 AM
When I'm in the south the accents, dress, food, culture, racial underpinnings all felt so different from my childhood in Tulsa. Then again, unlike Pete, I grew up in the Catholic Church and I didn't even realize the prevalence of evangelical southern baptists until I was older.

Pete
04-09-2015, 10:26 AM
Dan, I went to Putnam City schools in OKC and it seems like 98% of the kids were evangelicals and most Baptists.

I clearly remember several of my teachers talking about church and the bible, always from an evangelical view. In elementary school teachers would tell the girls "it is not God's will" for them to wear any sort of makeup, and other such nonsense.

At Hefner Jr. High -- at that time the largest junior high in the state -- we could not have dances because our principal was Baptist. Also, girls could not wear blue jeans and other crazy strict rules, all due to his personal convictions. At adjacent Central Jr. High, they had no such rules at all.

In high school, there was a morning prayer over the intercom system where the student Chaplain -- almost always a member of PC Baptist Church -- mentioned Jesus every single time. Same at all sporting events. Nevermind we had some Jewish kids and plenty who weren't religious at all.

There was so much peer pressure that as a Catholic I was frequently told I was going to hell if I didn't go to Baptist church and go running down the aisle to my born-again salvation.


If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I am. All of this was completely out of control and inappropriate. No kid in public school should have ever been subjected to that type of religious zealotry, let alone in what at the time was considered the best schools system in the state.

I assure you my cousins in Wisconsin had no such experiences.

Urbanized
04-09-2015, 10:29 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^
I had a number of similar experiences in Wichita. And Kansas most certainly AIN'T the South.

MsProudSooner
04-09-2015, 10:37 AM
Dan, I went to Putnam City schools in OKC and it seems like 98% of the kids were evangelicals and most Baptists.

I clearly remember several of my teachers talking about church and the bible, always from an evangelical view. In elementary school teachers would tell the girls "it is not God's will" for them to wear any sort of makeup, and other such nonsense.

At Hefner Jr. High -- at that time the largest junior high in the state -- we could not have dances because our principal was Baptist. Also, girls could not wear blue jeans and other crazy strict rules, all due to his personal convictions. At adjacent Central Jr. High, they had no such rules at all.

In high school, there was a morning prayer over the intercom system where the student Chaplain -- almost always a member of PC Baptist Church -- mentioned Jesus every single time. Same at all sporting events. Nevermind we had some Jewish kids and plenty who weren't religious at all.

There was so much peer pressure that as a Catholic I was frequently told I was going to hell if I didn't go to Baptist church and go running down the aisle to my born-again salvation.


If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I am. All of this was completely out of control and inappropriate. No kid in public school should have ever been subjected to that type of religious zealotry, let alone in what at the time was considered the best schools system in the state.

I assure you my cousins in Wisconsin had no such experiences.

I had similar experiences in my small western Oklahoma town. It was dominated by the Baptist and Church of Christ denominations. It permanently turned me against those 2 denominations.

Teo9969
04-09-2015, 11:27 AM
Evangelicalism is by no means a Southern only thing, and if that's our strongest tie to the South, we're not Southern at all.

Oklahoma was developed on the following events:

Native American Relocation: Roots - Native American
The Land Run: Roots - Everywhere
Oil Boom: Roots - Texoma/California

Both OKC and Tulsa have closer ties to both Kansas City and Dallas than we do any southern city…Tulsa more toward the former and OKC more toward the latter.

Oklahoma is Oklahoma and Texas is Texas…but if it takes 2 states to make a region, you won't find any close matches to either Texas or Oklahoma outside of each other. Neither is even remotely the south (even though we deal with certain similar issues).

kevinpate
04-09-2015, 11:38 AM
If states were created at soda fountains, we'd be what we called a suicide back in the day (perhaps the younglings still do) .. a little bit of everything and cool as cool can be.

Pete
04-09-2015, 11:38 AM
Not exclusively southern but predominantly so:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/evangelicals.jpg

gopokes88
04-09-2015, 11:48 AM
Oklahoma is the baskin robbins of states.

It's got some Southwestern to it with the Cowboy and bootstraps culture. However it lacks the environment the true SW states have. Desert (desert and plateaus, most of OK is way too green, except for far western OK)
We have some southern roots but we lack the food that's famous in the south. Particularly BBQ and grits.
It's Midwestern but by geography only.

We really are closest to Texas culture wise. However, with Texas becoming an I-35 economic powerhouse they are becoming just....bigger then we are. Which is fine I'd rather have most of the same things but not as big. The it's bigger in Texas mantra gets old.

Ethnically we have some similarities to New Mexico as both are melting pots. New Mexico was settled a long long time ago by Native American Indians. Then in the 1500s the Hispanics (true Hispanics not the PC BS kind) came from Spain, rather then stopping in Mexico they continued on up into NM. Then people from Mexico came up the Rio Grande along with white people from the East. So you truly have 4 distinct groups in New Mexico, the media will make you think Mexican=Hispanic, but that's actually not even remotely true in New Mexico.
In Oklahoma you have everyone who came from the land rush, and the Indians who were forced to come here. Both states have always been melting pots although New Mexico's might be older.

When I think Oklahoma I think, Cowboys and Indians, Dust Bowl, Tornado's, and Sooner football (vomit, but it's true).

Teo9969
04-09-2015, 12:04 PM
Not exclusively southern but predominantly so:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/evangelicals.jpg

Not really even close to predominantly. There's a reason you have a convergence on the line of Southern/Midwestern as the states most evangelical because the non-southern brand of evangelicalism is just as strong as the southern baptist and they've converged more and more in the last decade or two. There are many non Southern movements that have played a big part in Oklahoma's push toward extreme Evangelicalism (Non-southern Baptist movements, Methodist movements including Nazarenes, Pentecostal Movements including Assemblies of God, Non-Denominational movements, etc.) Yes Southern Baptists may be larger than any one other congregation in Oklahoma, but the sum of the non-southern movements is equal to or greater than the Southern movements in Oklahoma.

Pete
04-09-2015, 12:16 PM
I meant evangelicalism is predominantly a Southern thing.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 12:24 PM
Well I apologize for re-hashing an issue that some folks I guess don't like discussing. This is a topic that I've really given a lot of thought into and would like to have an open (and serious) discussion about. It seems to me that individual opinions of where Oklahoma's region lies has a lot to do with an individual's background. For example, I mentioned that my family came to Oklahoma before statehood from different parts of the South, which is pretty much true for most people in Southwest Oklahoma. Cotton is still big down there, most people speak with a Southern accent, counties named for Southerners (like Tillman County), and lots of other things typical of a Southern population. I moved to Oklahoma City at a young age, but I felt (perhaps incorrectly) the differences between my town in Southwest Oklahoma and Oklahoma City were due to the fact that Oklahoma City was simply a big city.

My frame of reference might be more "Southern" than most people's in OKC, but I do think that the way people here think of our state has a lot to with where they're from. I think that the people who came to Oklahoma City from the Northwest part of Oklahoma or the Midwest will probably be less inclined to think of Oklahoma as part of the South. The same might be true of people who come to Oklahoma from the Deep South and see wheat farms and pump-jacks and think they have left the South. But what do they make of Okies with Southern accents, schools named for Confederate officers, Oklahoma's Jim Crow history, the fact that OKC has many times as many BBQ places as the average American city?


I feel like we've talked about this extensively here.

fivethirtyeight did a couple pieces on which states think they are the south and midwest.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/current-events-open-topic/10615d1428586024-oklahoma-not-midwest-yall-midwest.jpg

Which States Are in the Midwest? | FiveThirtyEight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/)

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/current-events-open-topic/10616d1428586025-oklahoma-not-midwest-yall-south.jpg

Which States Are in the South? | FiveThirtyEight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/which-states-are-in-the-south/)

Glad you posted this! FiveThirtyEight's data contributes to my theory that the Midwest in Oklahoma means something different than it does nationally. These maps aren't based on which states consider themselves Midwest, but rather which states are considered Midwest by most people nationally. From their survey, 82% of Oklahomans think Kansas is the Midwest, 73% of Oklahomans think Nebraska is in the Midwest, 71% of Oklahomans think Missouri is in the Midwest, 57% of Oklahomans think Iowa is in the Midwest, 49% of Oklahomans think South Dakota is in the Midwest, 45% of Oklahomans think that Arkansas is in the Midwest, 43% of Oklahomans think North Dakota is in the Midwest, 37% of Oklahomans think Minnesota is in the Midwest, 37% of Oklahomans think Ohio is in the Midwest, 27% of Oklahomans think Wisconsin is in the Midwest, 27% of Oklahomans think Michigan is the Midwest,

And 65% of Oklahomans think we are in the Midwest, with 53% thinking we are in the South. Nationally, 36% of people think Oklahoma is in the Midwest, and 18% think it's the South. I really think that most Oklahomans think the Midwest means "middle of the nation".

I am also unsure of the sample sizes; some states had a lot of respondents and some only had one.

This is where you can play around with FiveThirtyEight's data: Where Americans Think They Live - Mode Blog (http://blog.modeanalytics.com/where-americans-think-they-live/)

adaniel
04-09-2015, 12:25 PM
I meant evangelicalism is predominantly a Southern thing.

Not to stray off topic too much, but my cousin had a very similar experience to you in, of all places, Colorado Springs. My uncle was an army officer and stationed in Fort Carson in the late 90's, about the same time a lot of evangelical organizations based in the city were at their peak power. These places like Focus on the family employed a ton of people and had a direct impact on the culture of the town. They themselves were committed Methodists but were basically run out of town. From what I hear, it is not as near as intense once Ted Haggard fell from grace. But it does go to show you evangelical Christianity is not a southern-exclusive thing, at least not these days.

I remember a survey recently showed Oklahoma had a lower church attendance rate than most of the south (although higher than the national average).

Pete
04-09-2015, 12:32 PM
But what do they make of Okies with Southern accents, schools named for Confederate officers, Oklahoma's Jim Crow history, the fact that OKC has many times as many BBQ places as the average American city?

Oklahomans have a twang -- similar to Texas -- and not a Southern drawl.

There is a pretty big difference. I remember interviewing for a job in North Carolina and literally having a hard time understanding the executive assistant who was coordinating things. My ear just wasn't used to that accent.

Also, BBQ takes all forms and certainly isn't unique to the South.

And while Oklahoma's racial history is nothing to be proud of, I remember being shocked when traveling to the South (Carolina's, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee) for the first time, at that point having spent my whole life in Oklahoma.


I will admit, however, that I have never liked Oklahoma (and me by extension) being associated with the South and therefore am inclined to argue these points from that perspective.

Interestingly, no one here in California seems to associate Oklahoma with the South, which is fine by me.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 12:33 PM
Evangelicalism is by no means a Southern only thing, and if that's our strongest tie to the South, we're not Southern at all. The two evangelicalisms also

Oklahoma was developed on the following events:

Native American Relocation: Roots - Native American
The Land Run: Roots - Everywhere
Oil Boom: Roots - Texoma/California

Both OKC and Tulsa have closer ties to both Kansas City and Dallas than we do any southern city…Tulsa more toward the former and OKC more toward the latter.

Oklahoma is Oklahoma and Texas is Texas…but if it takes 2 states to make a region, you won't find any close matches to either Texas or Oklahoma outside of each other. Neither is even remotely the south (even though we deal with certain similar issues).

I will be the first person to agree that if Oklahoma and Texas could be its own region then that's exactly where I'd place us. I disagree with you about the events you say are responsible for Oklahoma's culture, though. The land runs brought people in from the Midwest (and some people from Europe), but they only occurred in the Northwest and North Central parts of Oklahoma. Most of Oklahoma's settlers came from the South and not in the land runs.

Pete
04-09-2015, 12:34 PM
Not to stray off topic too much, but my cousin had a very similar experience to you in, of all places, Colorado Springs.

For various reasons, Colorado Springs has been a haven for evangelicals for quite a while. Several such agencies and groups are presently based there.

bchris02
04-09-2015, 12:35 PM
Not to stray off topic too much, but my cousin had a very similar experience to you in, of all places, Colorado Springs. My uncle was an army officer and stationed in Fort Carson in the late 90's, about the same time a lot of evangelical organizations based in the city were at their peak power. These places like Focus on the family employed a ton of people and had a direct impact on the culture of the town. They themselves were committed Methodists but were basically run out of town. From what I hear, it is not as near as intense once Ted Haggard fell from grace. But it does go to show you evangelical Christianity is not a southern-exclusive thing, at least not these days.

I remember a survey recently showed Oklahoma had a lower church attendance rate than most of the south (although higher than the national average).

Colorado Springs has long been known as being an outpost of the Bible Belt despite not being in the belt itself. It's a completely different world compared to Denver/Boulder.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 12:50 PM
Oklahomans have a twang -- similar to Texas -- and not a Southern drawl.

There is a pretty big difference. I remember interviewing for a job in North Carolina and literally having a hard time understanding the executive assistant who was coordinating things. My ear just wasn't used to that accent.

Also, BBQ takes all forms and certainly isn't unique to the South.

And while Oklahoma's racial history is nothing to be proud of, I remember being shocked when traveling to the South (Carolina's, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee) for the first time, at that point having spent my whole life in Oklahoma.


I will admit, however, that I have never liked Oklahoma (and me by extension) being associated with the South and therefore am inclined to argue these points from that perspective.

Interestingly, no one here in California seems to associate Oklahoma with the South, which is fine by me.

Thanks for indulging me in my theory, Pete!

I disagree with you about the accent, though. There's a difference in the "Plantation" style Southern accents and the accents found here, but I'm not sure it's an Oklahoma/Texas thing as much as it's an Upper South thing. It also has a lot to do with the age of the speaker; people born before 1950 tend to sound very Southern, while people born after that tend to have a less noticeable accent and more of a "twang". Of course, people born after 1980 pretty much talk with the "Standard American" accent, like most young people in the South do.

BBQ's origins are definitely in the South, though. There are regional varieties, for sure, but BBQ is pretty much confined to states that have historically been tied to the South.

I am not old enough to know what Oklahoma was like during the desegregation days, but from what I've Oklahoma and Kentucky desegregated much better than other Southern states. I certainly don't want to ruffle anybody's feathers in talking about Jim Crow era Oklahoma.

Teo9969
04-09-2015, 12:54 PM
I meant evangelicalism is predominantly a Southern thing.

But it's not. It may pervade the South because the South has always struggled with diversity, but Evagelicalism is far more encompassing than the South and its roots are from a far more diverse base. The South was not the foundation of all of Evangelicalism, but Southern movements buttress a large segment for sure.

Evangelicalism is essentially the ecumenical push of a wide-swath of Christian traditions to produce a more singular and concerted effort toward affecting the world politically/culturally on common ground values. You see this with groups like Campus Crusade for Christ who are para-church and purposely non-affiliated movements that bring together people from all traditions. Indeed, Bill Bright, the founder of "Cru" is from Coweta, Oklahoma and moved out to Los Angeles and subsequently started the movement.

Like I said, Evangelicalism is as much a Midwestern thing (which the graphic substantiates) as it is a Southern thing and really it's an American thing. The difference is the South has always been predominantly dixie-crat and conservative so the EV movement can catch hold there whereas the Midwest has legit liberal tendencies that push back against the relatively conservative nature of the EV movement.. But the Christian movements within the Midwest that are distinctly Midwestern (or at least non-southern) are core parts of the foundation of Evangelicalism, and there are major California-based Christian movements that are part of the foundation.

I'm going on this tangent because it's crucial to understanding the culture of Oklahoma. Our propensity toward Evangelicalism is far more likely a result of our multi-faceted background and the ability of Evangelicalism to unite people from diverse backgrounds on common ground than it is a signifier of our "Southern Roots".

Pete
04-09-2015, 12:56 PM
I can immediately distinguish people from OK/TX from the Deep South by their accents; people of all ages.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 01:18 PM
I can immediately distinguish people from OK/TX from the Deep South by their accents; people of all ages.

I do not have the same ability to locate a person to a specific region in the South based on accent, but I wish I did!

AP
04-09-2015, 01:25 PM
I remember interviewing for a job in North Carolina and literally having a hard time understanding the executive assistant who was coordinating things. My ear just wasn't used to that accent.

My company has an office in Birmingham that we work with a lot and it is very hard to understand some people from Alabama. Very different from an Oklahoman accent.

TU 'cane
04-09-2015, 01:41 PM
It's not easy to compartmentalize Oklahoma. This is a state where the South, the Midwest, and the Southwestern United States all meet. The Southeastern part of the state is purely Southern. Tulsa has more of a Midwestern vibe than does OKC and western Oklahoma and the Panhandle start to feel more Southwestern. I would agree though that the predominant influence culturally is Southern especially in 2015. If nothing else, the politics and religious affiliation here are in line with the South. There are key differences however between Oklahoma's brand of Southern and what you find in Tennessee or Alabama. Spend a week in Memphis and then come back to Oklahoma City and you'll see a clear difference. Okie culture has a ruggedness to it that is lacking in the Deep South in my opinion and I believe that has a lot to do with how the state was settled and the industries that have driven Oklahoma's economy since the beginning of statehood.

I couldn't have put it more correctly than this.
In fact, over on SSC, there was a thread I created where there was a little debate hosted in hopes of getting OK moved out of the Southeast sub-forum and into a Southwest or even TX/OK sub-forum. Why? Because nothing about OK is "eastern."

I absolutely love discussing what Oklahoma is and actually take passion in it.
Through everything and the times, etc. I still cannot place Oklahoma anywhere geographically.

Midwestern states, as alluded to, include Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc.
Southern states include Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, etc.
Southwestern states are really only Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

Oklahoma is very interesting in where it lies geographically, which obviously influences culture.
If you go to parts in the southern and SE quadrants of the state, you will undoubtedly find your self in North Texas, or even some branding of Louisiana/"Deep" Arkansas.

Head North around Tulsa, and it's more "midwest" than probably anywhere else in the state.

OKC is arguably the most cosmopolitan in this respect as it entertains influences from out west, south, and north.

We have desert landscapes out west, rolling plains throughout, mountains in the southeast, etc. There really isn't a particular place you could put us. Ruggedness is probably an accurate term to apply as it shows our western roots as well.



When I've been to the South it's like a culture shock to me. Aside from Little Dixie Southeast Oklahoma, the state is NOT particularly southern culturally (just politically). Oklahoma has much more in common with Texas and Kansas than Louisiana and Mississippi. As stated above, Oklahoma is kind of a convergence of multiple regions both geographically and culturally and doesn't got nearly into any one.

This was what I actually found most interesting, but at the same time, most heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking because when you spend time down there, you realize that's the deep south, and Oklahoma, as someone stated, might as well be south-lite. You KNOW when you're in the south when you're in Savannah, GA, or Charleston, SC, Alabama, etc.

Went through what I call a great southern tour recently and touched every state in the south with the exception of Tennessee. Okies are pretty far removed from the folks in Alabama and Mississippi, but we certainly do share a few cultural ties and southern cuisine isn't alien in Oklahoma as long as you know where to go.

-----

The one thing that's always bothered me is Cowboy boots and Cowboy hats becoming popular in Georgia, Mississippi, etc.
Cowboys are an invention of the WEST, not the East, folks. We wear boots and hats west of the river, the rest are just posers, in my humble opinion.

It's one thing to be, or try to be country, and a completely other thing to try and evoke something so engrained in western culture when you're East of the mighty Mississippi.


I can immediately distinguish people from OK/TX from the Deep South by their accents; people of all ages.

They're different for sure. Texans have their own Southern twangs, a little more comprehensible overall.
Have to pay attention to which words have a drawl.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 01:53 PM
I am a little surprised that Okies would have trouble understanding accents from deeper South, as I have definitely heard some very thick accents living here. Can anyone give me an example of an accent they have trouble with?

White Peacock
04-09-2015, 02:04 PM
The designations of Southern, Midwestern, etc. themselves are, nowadays, really meaningless constructs in heavily populated areas that have a lot of inward and outward migration, so it's not worth spending too much time pondering to what region Oklahoma belongs.

It's a border region, both politically and geographically, which is kind of reflective of how it came to be in the first place.

Motley
04-09-2015, 02:12 PM
No one has ever asked me if I was from the South, but I have been asked time and time again if I was from Texas. I grew up in Altus and spent the first 30 yrs of life in OK (Altus, Norman and Tulsa). A Dr, who fancied himself a linguist specialist, pegged me as OK immediately. Oklahomans don't have the pronounced drawl of a true West Texan, but we have a lot of similarities.

TU 'cane
04-09-2015, 02:13 PM
I am a little surprised that Okies would have trouble understanding accents from deeper South, as I have definitely heard some very thick accents living here. Can anyone give me an example of an accent they have trouble with?

I don't really have an issue understanding any of it, but I was making note that there is a distinct difference between Texas southern and "Southern." Texans are easier to understand and, in my opinion, have developed their own drawl and twangs that we also carry, especially in the southern parts of the state.

Stew
04-09-2015, 02:51 PM
I'm guessing labeling Ohio as "Midwest" predates the Louisianna purchase. Literally speaking that just seems silly today.

Last summer while in Fair Hope AL some random guy at a restaurant pegged my accent as Oklahoman. I'm like how the heck did you know that and he said Oklahomans have a very distinct accent. I don't see it but eh the proof is in the puddin'.

TU 'cane
04-09-2015, 02:59 PM
^^ It's funny because in the journalism world, and on much of television today in general, the "Ohio" or "Midwestern" flat accent is what is preferred. Or so I've heard many a time. It's not offensive to either the west coast or east coast, is one of the reasons I've heard why it's practiced today.

Pete
04-09-2015, 03:24 PM
Almost the entire western U.S. has very flat accents; from Colorado to Montana to Washington to California.

With people moving much more now than in previous generations and with the onslaught of A/V media, accents in general have flattened out a great deal.

ctchandler
04-09-2015, 03:27 PM
I am a little surprised that Okies would have trouble understanding accents from deeper South, as I have definitely heard some very thick accents living here. Can anyone give me an example of an accent they have trouble with?

Studying Okie,
My old friend in Montgomery, Al., was born and raised in Selma and I understand him but I have to listen very carefully and we have been friends since 1961.
C. T.

Zuplar
04-09-2015, 04:34 PM
Whenever I moved to Mustang from Stillwater I always got asked where I was from. When I told them they were shocked cause they always say I have zero accent, which most associate with the Midwest.

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 09:17 PM
Thanks for the replies everyone!


No one has ever asked me if I was from the South, but I have been asked time and time again if I was from Texas. I grew up in Altus and spent the first 30 yrs of life in OK (Altus, Norman and Tulsa). A Dr, who fancied himself a linguist specialist, pegged me as OK immediately. Oklahomans don't have the pronounced drawl of a true West Texan, but we have a lot of similarities.

I am originally from Altus! I don't have the ear for all of the differences in accents that others seem to, but I've always thought of our accents as being Southern.

This is a good example of the accent in the Southwest part of the state.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbtfxrcKNzs

Studying Okie
04-09-2015, 09:17 PM
I don't really have an issue understanding any of it, but I was making note that there is a distinct difference between Texas southern and "Southern." Texans are easier to understand and, in my opinion, have developed their own drawl and twangs that we also carry, especially in the southern parts of the state.

I am of the opinion that "Southern accent" is more of a blanket term for any accent with a Southern origin. I don't think that Oklahomans (or Texans) have the stereotypical "plantation" accent of Savannah or Charleston.

Is Jimmy Carter's accent what most people think of when they think of a Southern accent??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCOd-qWZB_g


I'm guessing labeling Ohio as "Midwest" predates the Louisianna purchase. Literally speaking that just seems silly today.

Last summer while in Fair Hope AL some random guy at a restaurant pegged my accent as Oklahoman. I'm like how the heck did you know that and he said Oklahomans have a very distinct accent. I don't see it but eh the proof is in the puddin'.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that nationally people have a different thought in mind when they think of the Midwest, and that we use the same identifier to mean "central". Basically I think it's giving people the wrong impression about Oklahoma when we call ourselves Midwestern.


Studying Okie,
My old friend in Montgomery, Al., was born and raised in Selma and I understand him but I have to listen very carefully and we have been friends since 1961.
C. T.

Thanks C.T.! Interesting stuff. I'll have to listen to some of these Alabama accents and hear the differences for myself!

Motley
04-09-2015, 09:41 PM
Yep, he sounds like someone from home. Definitely not the same the deep South.

LocoAko
04-09-2015, 10:12 PM
Not to my opinion is worth much, but being from NJ/NYC, Oklahoma definitely seems at least a bit Southern to me . Clearly not the "SouthEAST", but Southern-ish. I'm well aware of the significant differences in the history of states like AL/MS vs. OK, but I tend to associate it with some more basic cultural quantifiers: the widespread use of "y'all", the preponderance of Southern Baptists, the availability of things like fried okra... even the famed "What do you call soft drinks?" map, lol. (Though of course as stated, on almost all of those dialect maps, Oklahoma is a blend of all sorts of things). These are all things that instantly struck me as southern coming from back home. Plus, I'm sure people from the Deep South would disagree, but from this Yankee's perspective there's still a sense of southern hospitality here. Call it simple friendliness if you will, but it is something that is definitely not prevalent in other parts of the country.

Geographically we are most definitely 100% Southern Plains, and if I had to define a region, or if asked where Oklahoma is, the Great Plains would instantly be my answer. I admittedly think of this from a weather perspective for its association with severe weather, etc. But I don't think of the Plains so much a cultural region so much as a geographical (sorta how I consider NJ to be the 'northern Mid-Atlantic' geographically but the 'Northeast' culturally).

We also seem equally western to me for obvious reasons... cowboy boots, rodeos, country music, agriculture, and the strong-to-this-day sense of independence and not wanting to be bothered (at least that's how it seems to me, coming from the Northeast). Sort of a "don't tread on me" attitude that's still floating around. There's a tiny bit of southwestern here, but that really doesn't start til west of Amarillo-Lubbock, IMO. The vastness and flatness of the landscape, too.

I should add that most of my exploration of distant parts of the state have come from storm chasing, so I've primarily only seen W of an I35-OKC-I44 line. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I were equally familiar with McAlester, Idabel, etc.

Final answer: Western 55%, Southern 45%, Great Plains 100%. ;)

https://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/baptist.gif

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/06/article-0-1A2B955F000005DC-299_634x450.jpg

Urbanized
04-10-2015, 06:03 AM
"Southern hospitality" = completely overrated. It very, VERY often isn't authentic or sincere. It is a type of forced politeness more concerned with reputation and rules (and business) than with friendliness. It tends to be backbiting and clannish. Oklahomans are FRIENDLY. They are open and welcoming. There is a HUGE difference.

Teo9969
04-10-2015, 06:20 AM
"Southern hospitality" = completely overrated. It very, VERY often isn't authentic or sincere. It is a type of forced politeness more concerned with reputation and rules (and business) than with friendliness. It tends to be backbiting and clannish. Oklahomans are FRIENDLY. They are open and welcoming. There is a HUGE difference.

So much this.

NoOkie
04-10-2015, 06:54 AM
I grew up in Georgia and Oklahoma has never felt particularly southern to me, aside from religious similarities. Aside from political affiliation during the Civil War(I think I may be yelled at by some extended family for not saying "The War of Northern Aggression"), I also don't consider Texas southern. It's just Texas, and Oklahoma seems to have more in common with Texas than anywhere else.


"Southern hospitality" = completely overrated. It very, VERY often isn't authentic or sincere. It is a type of forced politeness more concerned with reputation and rules (and business) than with friendliness. It tends to be backbiting and clannish. Oklahomans are FRIENDLY. They are open and welcoming. There is a HUGE difference.

I think people really confuse hospitality with friendliness. The "old south"(Not Atlanta, not Research Triangle, or other areas of large migration from other parts of the country) is still a very traditionalist society, and some of those traditions demand certain modes of behavior, especially when receiving guests. The thing about Southern hospitality is that, theoretically, it isn't optional. You may be receiving someone you despise, but you have to stay outwardly polite(Passive aggressive sniping is a high art form in the south), offer some drinks, maybe some food and go through all the motions. It's about the gestures of being a host, not a friend.

That being said, Okies are friendly as hell. But I find a lot of people are. Some areas are more reserved, but I've had generally good experiences everywhere I've gone in the country(Except for getting lost in back woods Mississippi. Those people are clannish and scary and probably wanted to eat me), including the north east.

mkjeeves
04-10-2015, 06:55 AM
I was in Florida recently talking to a stranger who made the comment from my accent I was a true southerner, a rarity in Florida. I corrected him that I was from Oklahoma. I married a woman from the deep south though, and I'm sure living with her has altered both of our speech and I've spent some time in the south. (He had a northern accent and I worked "yankee" into the conversation to return the favor.) That's not the first time that's happened with me while traveling with people listening to how I said something rather than what I said.

When I returned home, I edited some video I shot with narration. Between that incident and my recorded voice, I decided I wanted to work on my speech and tone down the hick in mixed company or at least have a better understanding of which parts of the speech pattern made it stand out that way. Haven't gotten very far with it other than to look around for what might be out there in instruction and watch a video or two.

turnpup
04-10-2015, 10:15 AM
In my experience, there's a distinct difference in the Oklahoma "twang" or "accent" when you get deep into SE Oklahoma. I'm talking McCurtain County. Their voices, to me, sound much more "Southern" than the rest of us.

My parents were from that area, but left as soon as they finished high school, winding up in central Oklahoma. Their voices sounded like pretty much everyone else in this part of the state--until we took a trip back to their hometown. My mother always reverted back to her more Southern accent while she was down there. It was strange.

Bullbear
04-10-2015, 10:24 AM
In my experience, there's a distinct difference in the Oklahoma "twang" or "accent" when you get deep into SE Oklahoma. I'm talking McCurtain County. Their voices, to me, sound much more "Southern" than the rest of us.

My parents were from that area, but left as soon as they finished high school, winding up in central Oklahoma. Their voices sounded like pretty much everyone else in this part of the state--until we took a trip back to their hometown. My mother always reverted back to her more Southern accent while she was down there. It was strange.

I grew up in SE oklahoma until mid jr. High.. my sister however still lives down there and she has a very thick Souther Accent for sure..lol

the michigander
04-15-2015, 01:24 PM
I'm from Michigan born and raised I also lived in Virginia and spent 10 years in Mississippi and to me Oklahoma is southern. it feels more southern than vVirginia and as southern as Mississippi to me. And in no ways do Oklahomano city or town resembles the mMidwest.

White Peacock
04-15-2015, 03:56 PM
I'm from Michigan born and raised I also lived in Virginia and spent 10 years in Mississippi and to me Oklahoma is southern. it feels more southern than vVirginia and as southern as Mississippi to me. And in no ways do Oklahomano city or town resembles the mMidwest.

You trolling?

the michigander
04-15-2015, 07:09 PM
You trolling?
Why would I troll I can't give a opinion on my experience.

bchris02
04-15-2015, 07:11 PM
To somebody from Michigan, Oklahoma probably does seem similar to Mississippi. To somebody from the South, New York and Massachusetts might seem similar while they wouldn't to somebody up north.

the michigander
04-15-2015, 08:30 PM
My reason for saying what I did is to me in my opinion. When i lived in vriginia. Norfolk to be exact it was so many transplants via the military and colleges. It didnt feel southern. Now in Mississippi and Oklahoma seem comparable politically, education wise southern cuisine and music prefer blues over jazz. Red dirt no basements no zoning laws. Some differences Oklahoma has western culture and Mississippi has some Cajun flair being mardi gras is big there especially on the coast. Like I said I'm just giving my opinion on someone who has not just visited the places but has actually lived there.

ZYX2
04-15-2015, 11:58 PM
To somebody from Michigan, Oklahoma probably does seem similar to Mississippi. To somebody from the South, New York and Massachusetts might seem similar while they wouldn't to somebody up north.

Interestingly, the only people that I can remember ever telling me that I have much of an accent have been people from Michigan or Chicago. And not just once, but on several unrelated occasions.