Wonder how Love's Country Stores financial support has changed because of this? One of their kids was apparently living in the house when this happened. I hear they are not happy with Boren's response.

Oh boo hoo.

Wonder how Love's Country Stores financial support has changed because of this? One of their kids was apparently living in the house when this happened. I hear they are not happy with Boren's response.

I tend to agree that the response might have been better if it were more of a teaching moment on diversity and racism rather than a quick expulsion. However, the Loves can be mad but entire fraternities have been kicked off campus many of times based on the actions of only a couple of members. It probably does suck for those members that werent involved but thats life.

And Berry Trammell continues to hit on the hypocrisy of OU's stance on racism when they have been rather light on male on female violence.
Why Oklahoma's football team is the wrong messenger in the protest against a racist fraternity video | News OK (http://newsok.com/why-oklahomas-football-team-is-the-wrong-messenger-in-the-protest-against-a-racist-fraternity-video/article/5402347)

Muh, not sure if I agree with Trammell. SAE's actions were representative of an institutionalized tradition/policy at SAE, both locally and at other chapters. (Even if it is something, as some have said here, new). If someone can show evidence of a policy to teach, encourage, and cover up behavior such as Mixon's in the OU football program, then I'll agree.

Muh, not sure if I agree with Trammell. SAE's actions were representative of an institutionalized tradition/policy at SAE, both locally and at other chapters. (Even if it is something, as some have said here, new). If someone can show evidence of a policy to teach, encourage, and cover up behavior such as Mixon's in the OU football program, then I'll agree.

Regardless, and I still agree the Frat needed to go (but I'm also biased by inside information), they were completely denied any due-process. I have no idea what process may or may not be outlined in their official affiliation with the University, but I would suspect there was some and I'd bet their lawsuit hinges heavily on that.

I tend to agree that the response might have been better if it were more of a teaching moment on diversity and racism rather than a quick expulsion. However, the Loves can be mad but entire fraternities have been kicked off campus many of times based on the actions of only a couple of members. It probably does suck for those members that werent involved but thats life.

And Berry Trammell continues to hit on the hypocrisy of OU's stance on racism when they have been rather light on male on female violence.
Why Oklahoma's football team is the wrong messenger in the protest against a racist fraternity video | News OK (http://newsok.com/why-oklahomas-football-team-is-the-wrong-messenger-in-the-protest-against-a-racist-fraternity-video/article/5402347)

I think that was actually a great article by Tram. I hate to say it, but Berry Trammell has a good point.

10 things black people fear that white people simply don?t - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2015/03/18/10_things_black_people_fear_that_white_people_simp ly_dont_have_to_partner/)

Didn't want to start a new topic on this, but it looks like its another fraternity's turn to fry in the spotlight. From Tulane University in New Orleans:

Goat beheading video prompts Tulane University investigation | NOLA.com (http://www.nola.com/pets/index.ssf/2015/03/goat_beheading_video_prompts_t.html#incart_story_p ackage)

Buddy who lives near Tulane's campus tells me they are currently investigating the FIJI (Phi Gamma Delta) house.

Also, I don't believe the story has a video, but in case it does it's HIGHLY NSFW and very graphic. I will not link the youtube version here.

Levi Petit, one of the SAE members that was expelled, met with black leaders today and then held a press conference.

NewsOK has a live Twitter account:

Expelled OU student says racist chant was 'disgusting,' he's ashamed he didn't stand up and stop it | News OK (http://newsok.com/expelled-ou-student-says-racist-chant-was-disgusting-hes-ashamed-he-didnt-stop-it/article/5404545)


That young man stood up, apologized and pledged to work against racism. Took a lot of guts.

Levi Petit, one of the SAE members that was expelled, met with black leaders today and then held a press conference.

NewsOK has a live Twitter account:

Expelled OU student says racist chant was 'disgusting,' he's ashamed he didn't stand up and stop it | News OK (http://newsok.com/expelled-ou-student-says-racist-chant-was-disgusting-hes-ashamed-he-didnt-stop-it/article/5404545)


That young man stood up, apologized and pledged to work against racism. Took a lot of guts.

Unbelieveable how well he did. Guts and then some.

It's even more impressive since he's from the Dallas area and made it a point to reach out to people in Oklahoma.

It said he apologized to Boren who accepted it. He also met with members of the football team.

Perhaps he'll be allowed to re-enroll at some point? Not sure if he would want to but if he does, I think he deserves a second chance.

Is Levi Petit the one on the bus pics that newsok has right now? If so, how could he be ashamed to not have stood up and stop the chant??? He was the one leading it! It may have taken a lot guts to meet with black leaders, hold a press conference, apologize, etc. But how sincere can he really be? Now, if some other kid came out and said that he was ashamed to not have stood up, I can understand. But not when it's the leader of the group

I'm glad he's making efforts, but there are a few things that give me pause. First, it's my understanding the family has hired a pricey PR firm for all this. That makes it hard to determine his authenticity. I wish his family had initially sought experts on the issue, not experts on image control. Second, it's my understanding that he is unwilling talk about what happened that led up to everything. If you're still protecting the fraternity/group/culture that may have contributed to all this, then doesn't that bring a bit of question to whether your commitment is to yourself or real change?

I'm just asking questions to consider what it takes for true reconciliation and change. I can't speak to what's in this kid's heart, but there are a number of things in the process and speech that give me pause... I hope he really does plan to dedicate his life to social justice.

I'm glad he's making efforts, but there are a few things that give me pause. First, it's my understanding the family has hired a pricey PR firm for all this. That makes it hard to determine his authenticity. I wish his family had initially sought experts on the issue, not experts on image control. Second, it's my understanding that he is unwilling talk about what happened that led up to everything. If you're still protecting the fraternity/group/culture that may have contributed to all this, then doesn't that bring a bit of question to whether your commitment is to yourself or real change?

I'm just asking questions to consider what it takes for true reconciliation and change. I can't speak to what's in this kid's heart, but there are a number of things in the process and speech that give me pause... I hope he really does plan to dedicate his life to social justice.

Wise words. A bit premature for a rah-rah parade.

I'm glad he's making efforts, but there are a few things that give me pause. First, it's my understanding the family has hired a pricey PR firm for all this. That makes it hard to determine his authenticity. I wish his family had initially sought experts on the issue, not experts on image control. Second, it's my understanding that he is unwilling talk about what happened that led up to everything. If you're still protecting the fraternity/group/culture that may have contributed to all this, then doesn't that bring a bit of question to whether your commitment is to yourself or real change?

I'm just asking questions to consider what it takes for true reconciliation and change. I can't speak to what's in this kid's heart, but there are a number of things in the process and speech that give me pause... I hope he really does plan to dedicate his life to social justice.

So you want him to be a snitch? You want him to start naming names so other people's lives are in danger? I don't even think they are really true racists. They are just idiots. These same immature young men probably also make fun of fat people and make sexist comments, but most of them probably have fat friends and girlfriends. I guarantee you most of these guys have black friends.

So you want him to be a snitch? You want him to start naming names so other people's lives are in danger?

How about "I've shared all the information I know with University investigators and given them my full cooperation." Not suggesting he has or he hasn't, but it might have been better than refusing to comment. Seemed like a pretty fair question to me.

Is Levi Petit the one on the bus pics that newsok has right now? If so, how could he be ashamed to not have stood up and stop the chant??? He was the one leading it! It may have taken a lot guts to meet with black leaders, hold a press conference, apologize, etc. But how sincere can he really be? Now, if some other kid came out and said that he was ashamed to not have stood up, I can understand. But not when it's the leader of the group

18-19 year old kids who consume more alcohol than they probably should don't always make the most positive life choices. A racist act does not quite make someone a racist.

IIf you're still protecting the fraternity/group/culture that may have contributed to all this, then doesn't that bring a bit of question to whether your commitment is to yourself or real change?


As soon as SAE's national office became aware of this, they suspended the chapter's charter. I'm assuming they will be following up by expelling all members who were involved after a thorough investigation. SAE has been crystal clear that this is not part of their culture. Other NIC groups have stepped up in their cultural competency training--and really, (and I can speak to this as an alumni volunteer who comes into contact with undergrad members from across the country) our groups are more diverse than ever before. It's hard to root out 150+ years of institutionalized racism, but progress is quickly being made.

There are some people who won't be satisfied until these boys have every aspect of their lives destroyed and or are dead as the victim of some sort of perceived vigilante "justice".

I believe SAE's action (the national org) in pulling the charter was appropriate. I believe OU's action in shutting down the frat was appropriate. Both of these actions targeted the source of the problem. A culture/org that encouraged and promoted these types of songs. Anything past these actions has been IMO too far, and even then, nothing these boys do, their apologies, their assuming responsibility, has been enough. I've seen their apologies over analyzed, criticized, and dismissed.

I didn't know there were so many perfect people in the world. Well, I remember what the world did to the last perfect person. We're gonna need a lot more crosses and nails...

It's a fair point that this kid is from a wealthy family and everything yesterday was very well orchestrated.

On the other hand, he was there on his own, meeting with community leaders and standing up in front of the mic. His parents weren't there; I didn't see any attorney's or PR people.

He's still a 19-20 year old college kid who stepped up and did this. He deserves props and forgiveness IMO.

18-19 year old kids who consume more alcohol than they probably should don't always make the most positive life choices. A racist act does not quite make someone a racist.

What a lame excuse. I have had my share of drinks in my life. I've never thought of chanting something like this. The results of the chant were the result of A SERIES OF CHOICES that culminated in being caught.

I am not here to bash a kid I don't know. I've been clear on that, but it's amazing how many excuses are made trying to brush away racism without any basis too. All the people saying "this kid probably isn't racist just because he did something racist" rarely provide evidence or reasoning for such a statement. The message is: racism is just a made up thing we shouldn't really be concerned with.

Discussions of racism are not easy and it's usually a matter of scale. Most everyone stereotypes "others" regularly so "racism" is really about scale and effects. If we're being honest, the more pertinent question than "is someone racist?" but "how racist are they?" To be able to do what that kid did is pretty far to the extreme on both scale and effects.

The SAE incident pretty much requires a culture of racism. My concern is whether we will make real progress on this issue, but if people keep pretending this was just an isolated mistake and not part of a larger cultural problem than nothing has been learned.

It's a fair point that this kid is from a wealthy family and everything yesterday was very well orchestrated.

On the other hand, he was there on his own, meeting with community leaders and standing up in front of the mic. His parents weren't there; I didn't see any attorney's or PR people.

He's still a 19-20 year old college kid who stepped up and did this. He deserves props and forgiveness IMO.

I generally agree. I can't imagine trying to speak in such a situation at his age. He generally did as well as he could at this point. I'm glad he is making steps...

My only problems with the prepared speech were: (A) he specifically said he shouldn't have "participated" in the chant and should have "stopped it." He was clearly leading it and he seemed to not take responsibility for his role. And (B), as I've pointed out, refusing to discuss the context is problematic. I don't expect him to name names, but he should explain how and why these things happened. He refused to address the culture of SAE, which is a big part of the issue.

To be able to do what that kid did is pretty far to the extreme on both scale and effects.

Really? I'd love to see that scale, because I'd have to wonder where actually lynching someone for being black would fall. Or actually voting to bar someone from joining for being black. Or lighting a cross on fire in someone's yard and dressing in a white robe. Because those seem extreme on scale and effects. A song on a bus seems stupid, and racist, but pretty low on the scale and effect.

He refused to address the culture of SAE, which is a big part of the issue.

Maybe because when the other kid apologized and addressed that, he was accused of making excuses?

I'm not sure the culture at SAE is at issue any more.

The national fraternity has pretty much pledged to educate all their chapters on this issue and everyone is on notice that if a song like that is even sung by a single guy in the shower, they could all be packing their bags in 48 hours.

Also, I'm very sure other fraternal organizations -- both national on a national and local level -- have put the word out to immediately stop anything remotely similar.

As we've discussed, almost every fraternity has 'basement songs' or 'dirty songs' and while I know those that I sung were not racist, they were vulgar and profane and if captured and shared on Youtube in today's climate, I also know there would be big consequences.

I think all that represents a pretty important shift, especially with these old organizations that love to carry traditions forward. I think everyone now realizes it's time to let a lot of them die if they want to continue to operate in the modern world.

It's a fair point that this kid is from a wealthy family and everything yesterday was very well orchestrated.

On the other hand, he was there on his own, meeting with community leaders and standing up in front of the mic. His parents weren't there; I didn't see any attorney's or PR people.

He's still a 19-20 year old college kid who stepped up and did this. He deserves props and forgiveness IMO.

Pete, I don't disagree, at least completely. Forgiveness - absolutely. I'm with you. But I'm not ready to give props yet, at least without knowing the background (which I accept we may never know). I don't have a cite, but I thought I recalled reading that his parents were there. I also know there were a fair number of people there that weren't on camera - I have no idea how many "handlers" were involved, if any. I have no idea if the young man set this apology in motion of his own free will, or if he is simply following the instructions of others.

For simply making the apology, knowing the additional hits he would take, I appreciate his effort. But I won't go so far as to accept that this is completely genuine and evidence of the fact he has a full appreciation of the damage this incident has caused. I fully understand others may see this differently.

Both of these actions targeted the source of the problem. A culture/org that encouraged and promoted these types of songs.

Agree. It targeted the problem directly.

In comparison, the culture was deemed as being the problem at Penn St. The NCAA spoke to that directly in saying that was why they were being so harsh on PSU. It was to change a culture at PSU where football was so important that child rape had been allowed to be covered up for decades.

I don't know what the answer is, but it seems that the culture at PSU didn't/hasn't changed. Protests and rallys were held at PSU for Paterno and the football program, not for the abused children. PSU students and alum (for the most part, not all) portrayed themselves as the victims while seemingly forgetting about the very real victims that had been raped. The NCAA sanctions were lifted early and I have no idea why. As far as I can tell the culture hasn't changed at all. They still have a culture of football being more important than the lives of children who can't protect themselves.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a football hater. I love football. I went to OU and love watching the football team win and hope for a few more NCs. But if it came to light that Mike had been raping boys for years and Bob had swept it under the rug, I'd want both gone immediately and things changed to where this kind of thing didn't happen anymore. Yeah, I would care that it hurts OU and the football team, but our priorities need to be in the right order.

For simply making the apology, knowing the additional hits he would take, I appreciate his effort. But I won't go so far as to accept that this is completely genuine and evidence of the fact he has a full appreciation of the damage this incident has caused. I fully understand others may see this differently.

We'll never know this one way or another and I don't see any benefit to anyone or any issue to continue to make this about this one person.

I believe very strongly in the good energy that flows from a spirit of forgiveness; especially when contrasted against the energy of anger and contempt.

And there is no debating, this one person has already paid a big price, so it's not like he just going to fool all of us then go happily skipping down the road. Watch the TED talk by Monica Lewinsky about the realities of public shaming; it's pretty compelling.

The SAE incident pretty much requires a culture of racism. My concern is whether we will make real progress on this issue, but if people keep pretending this was just an isolated mistake and not part of a larger cultural problem than nothing has been learned.

With all due respect, you have only seen this situation as it has been portrayed by the media and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The same can probably be said for nearly everyone else that has posted throughout the 18 pages of this thread.

We'll never know this one way or another and I don't see any benefit to anyone or any issue to continue to make this about this one person.

I believe very strongly in the good energy that flows from a spirit of forgiveness; especially when contrasted against the energy of anger and contempt.

And there is no debating, this one person has already paid a big price, so it's not like he just going to fool all of us then go happily skipping down the road. Watch the TED talk by Monica Lewinsky about the realities of public shaming; it's pretty compelling.

He also didn't have to say anything. OU already kicked him out and he could have just went back to Texas and became irrelevant a few months from now. One thing about angry mobs is that they have short attention spans. The next issue is only one headline or Facebook post away.

What a lame excuse. I have had my share of drinks in my life. I've never thought of chanting something like this. The results of the chant were the result of A SERIES OF CHOICES that culminated in being caught.

I don't know how much time you've spent with people in this particular age group, but no, you don't have enough facts to really know what you're talking about here. With these basement songs, the point is not to proclaim racial superiority. The idea is usually to get attention by shocking the audience. While mostly not racial (I've never heard a racist one like the one being discussed here), these songs are always profane and mostly sacreligious.

You're making a lot of assumptions here because you are not culturally competent with this particular demographic.

With all due respect, you have only seen this situation as it has been portrayed by the media and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The same can probably be said for nearly everyone else that has posted throughout the 18 pages of this thread.

Please enlighten us at to how a song like this could be taught within a culture where racism is not an issue. How does a fraternity go over a decade without a black member without some kind of racism? SAE members came out and apologized on campus for not stopping what was happening in the house. There's been admission that the song was taught by members in the house. I am not saying SAE is unique among fraternities, but I'd love to hear your perspective because I'm basing my judgment on a large number of perspectives.

Really? I'd love to see that scale, because I'd have to wonder where actually lynching someone for being black would fall. Or actually voting to bar someone from joining for being black. Or lighting a cross on fire in someone's yard and dressing in a white robe. Because those seem extreme on scale and effects. A song on a bus seems stupid, and racist, but pretty low on the scale and effect.


My standards are based on the 21st century, not a time when slavery and segregation were legal. Yes, I consider singing lynching songs in semi-public spaces pretty extreme. It seems our society agrees with me as noted by the fact that a short clip ignited a national outrage where the actions were universally condemned.

So, yeah, Jim Crow laws that have been illegal for 50 years and actual lynchings are well beyond the scope of what we should be discussing at this point, right?

18-19 year old kids who consume more alcohol than they probably should don't always make the most positive life choices. A racist act does not quite make someone a racist.

I actually agree with the above 100%. After this incident, I spoke with my friends and I argued that most of these kids are probably not truly racist deep down. At 18-19 years old, most of them probably don't have enough life experiences to develop true hatred toward any specific group of people. They're more than likely a bunch of followers who needed to be accepted, so they sang what was taught to them. A lot of them probably began using the n-word much earlier in life, probably learned it from their parents or their peers in their predominantly white high schools. But have they truly had enough interaction with blacks in order to develop these negative thoughts? I doubt it. These are just my assumptions and my gut feeling.

But as far as the whole apology/PR stunt, I'm willing to bet that he was forced to make that apology by his parents. I, personally, don't feel it was sincere. To me, it's all about salvaging what's left of the family name at this point. But I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. Like I said, it took a lot of courage to do this. Me at 18 years old? I probably would've hid out for as long as possible until this situation was forgotten by most. I didn't actually listen to/watch the apology, but I spoke with a couple members of the black community today who did hear it, and they don't feel he was genuine. But that was just a couple of people.

Also, I do believe in forgiveness and don't think we should persecute this kid for the rest of his life. I've made a large number of mistakes in my life, which as an adult, wish I could take back. So, no, I'm not looking at burning this kid at the stake.

My standards are based on the 21st century, not a time when slavery and segregation were legal. Yes, I consider singing lynching songs in semi-public spaces pretty extreme. It seems our society agrees with me as noted by the fact that a short clip ignited a national outrage where the actions were universally condemned.

So, yeah, Jim Crow laws that have been illegal for 50 years and actual lynchings are well beyond the scope of what we should be discussing at this point, right?

I'm still gonna have to disagree. Yes, what they did was stupid. And yes, SAE teaching this song chant was bad and indefensible and the treatment that the SAE chapter received was 100% appropriate. But these young men singing this chant on a private bus is in no way in the realm of the extreme end of racism in scale or effect, and it's nuts to claim otherwise. There have been cross burning incidents in yards THIS YEAR. That's pretty extreme. Directed incidents of racism towards minorities. At the minimum, you'd have to consider hurt and damage in any logical scale. There's a reason they're not being charged with a hate crime or anything of that effect (and it would be absurd to suggest it).

Useless hyperbole helps nothing of the discussion and crosses the line into witch hunting.

From a very good source - the chant/song came from Univ. of Texas - an SAE at OU from Tx had brother at UT and he got song from him. Not taught or used generally at SAE OU, but was that night on the bus and originated from the Tx. Many SAE OU kids had never heard the song until they saw the video for first time. Not an excuse - but seems to be how it made its way to OU SAE on that particular night. I will say there are some very fired up SAE parents and OU alums whose kids were nowhere near that bus that night, who had never heard that song and who within 24 hours were on the street with no assistance from OU in regard to housing etc.

Please enlighten us at to how a song like this could be taught within a culture where racism is not an issue. How does a fraternity go over a decade without a black member without some kind of racism? SAE members came out and apologized on campus for not stopping what was happening in the house. There's been admission that the song was taught by members in the house. I am not saying SAE is unique among fraternities, but I'd love to hear your perspective because I'm basing my judgment on a large number of perspectives.

Drop the condescending tone, your position on the other side of this issue does not make you better than me. As I've said before, I'm limited in what I can say for now about the situation.

Your large number of perspectives with actual knowledge of the situation are limited to the apologies of two students and a two sentence statement from the board of trustees. No one else who actually knows anything about the current situation at the SAE house has spoken to the media.

How does the fraternity go for a decade without signing a black member?
1) At least when I was in school, African American students made up a very small percentage of those who rushed. We rushed several while I was there and most of them either chose other houses (as many other rushees of every ethnic background do) or chose one of the African American ehnic fraternities (alpha phi alpha, phi beta sigma, etc). Ironically while I was in the house, we hosted several diversity type events where we would invite the ethnic fraternities and sororities over to the house, learn about eachothers organizations and cultures, then party with them afterwards. We also often partnered with those ethnic fraternities/sororities when doing homecoming and other campus events. We had very good relationships with those organizations and mutually benefited from our interactions.

2) Notice I said most signed elsewhere...as is so often the case, the media completely overlooked several facts in this story to pursue the agenda and witch hunt that it turned into. We did sign an African American student in 2010 who graduated in December of 2014...I know because the kid went to my highschool and I was still in the house when he signed. Unfortunately Will James and John Davis, the two African American guys that were interviewed on CNN, also didn't know that there was another African American member. The student lived in the house and participated in fraternity events like everyone else. So while signing one black guy in the last decade doesn't make us worthy of a tickertape parade, it disputes the narrative that's been perpetuated by the media that there is some major culture of racism there.

On another note, several members of the same football team that protested SAE before spring break (including several current and previous captains), were friends with several current members of SAE (some of whom were walk-ons on the football team at one point) and partied with them at the house as recent as the week before the video came out. So again, if all these guys were so racist, why did they sign a black person and invite FRIENDS from the football team over to hang out on regular occasions? It again, reinforces some of the things Midtowner has said.

From a very good source - the chant/song came from Univ. of Texas - an SAE at OU from Tx had brother at UT and he got song from him. Not taught or used generally at SAE OU, but was that night on the bus and originated from the Tx. Many SAE OU kids had never heard the song until they saw the video for first time. Not an excuse - but seems to be how it made its way to OU SAE on that particular night. I will say there are some very fired up SAE parents and OU alums whose kids were nowhere near that bus that night, who had never heard that song and who within 24 hours were on the street with no assistance from OU in regard to housing etc.

That is not completely accurate but is close.

Ive avoided this thread for the most part. mainly because when I do read some of the posts I wonder how anyone can defend any portion of this. I am sorry but to sing such a song and say that doesn't make you racist is just too much.. if it doesn't make you racist is certainly makes you a coward who won't stand up for what it right in a situation. which it turn makes you part of the problem. I for one once be silent when it comes to blatant racist behavior by others.

Ive avoided this thread for the most part. mainly because when I do read some of the posts I wonder how anyone can defend any portion of this. I am sorry but to sing such a song and say that doesn't make you racist is just too much.. if it doesn't make you racist is certainly makes you a coward who won't stand up for what it right in a situation. which it turn makes you part of the problem. I for one once be silent when it comes to blatant racist behavior by others.

On another note, you also only see 10 seconds of video...you don't see other people on the bus telling those singing to stop. Of all the people on that bus that have been interviewed by the University, one consistency in their testimony is that several people who were mentioned by name in each case, did stand up and tell them to stop singing it.

I've never defended what they said and have even said that I thought the fraternity needed to hit the restart button over the last few years...but to say that saying or singing something ignorant definitely makes you racist, is in itself ignorant.

I've never defended what they said and have even said that I thought the fraternity needed to hit the restart button over the last few years...but to say that saying or singing something ignorant definitely makes you racist, is in itself ignorant.

For anyone to sing those words and just dismiss it as ignorant and not racist is ignorant. I don't buy boys will be boys BS those words are inflamatory and offensive and there is NO WAY i believe someone sings them willfully and with such glee and can say " it doesn't mean they are racist " COME ON.. .. sorry all stocked up on crazy here .. try to sell that somewhere else.


I get it.. you dont like to see Greek life getting a black eye.. but seriously.

For anyone to sing those words and just dismiss it as ignorant and not racist is ignorant. I don't buy boys will be boys BS those words are inflamatory and offensive and there is NO WAY i believe someone sings them willfully and with such glee and can say " it doesn't mean they are racist " COME ON.. .. sorry all stocked up on crazy here .. try to sell that somewhere else.


I get it.. you dont like to see Greek life getting a black eye.. but seriously.

Then you have your opinion and I have mine.

However, I have the benefit of being able to base my opinion on knowing people that were involved at multiple grade levels in the fraternity as well as generations of some of their families and having inside knowledge of the situation. You have two 10 second video clips and two weeks of media coverage. If that's all you have to go on, I'm pretty comfortable with where I stand in my opinion on this.

After reading this I have concluded that some of you need to take a step back and re-examine your lives because you seem to have placed the center of the racist/not racist scale directly where you are standing and the reality is you are standing over on the racist side.

As a father, if my son ever said anything like this I would be the one addressing the media because clearly I failed big time in raising a well mannered and respectable Christian child. And you can be sure that I would impress upon him how serious the situation is because that is NOT how he was raised.

After reading this I have concluded that some of you need to take a step back and re-examine your lives because you seem to have placed the center of the racist/not racist scale directly where you are standing and the reality is you are standing over on the racist side.

I sure hope you didn't read my comments and direct this at me...if so that is crap.

i should have continued to just stay way from this thread. because sure enough its just more of the same.
I say if it walks like a duck and talks (or sings) like a duck.. well its probably a duck ( even if you know generations of ducks before it that swear it isn't a duck and will write letters of how they couldn't be a duck. )

I know this - my kids have never heard any language, or learned any behavior, like that in my house. How many apologists on this subject can say that about their home?

i should have continued to just stay way from this thread. because sure enough its just more of the same.
I say if it walks like a duck and talks (or sings) like a duck.. well its probably a duck ( even if you know generations of ducks before it that swear it isn't a duck and will write letters of how they couldn't be a duck. )

Anonymity on internet forums is great isn't it? Gives you great opportunities to be a dick without repercussions.

Once again, I comment on this situation...with more knowledge of it than anyone here...and am met with hostility. Grow up and learn to have a conversation without being a ass.

I know this - my kids have never heard any language, or learned any behavior, like that in my house. How many apologists on this subject can say that about their home?

...I can say that about my home...And my fraternity house, which was my home for 4 years, while I was in it.

Also, congrats on not letting your kids listen to rap music...wise choice, unless things change with that genre, I may be doing the same in a few years.

Ummm I believe you said my "Opinion" on the matter made me ignorant. so my response was to you.
I would say the same thing to anyones face. I find it indefenseable to use such language and to sing it with such glee whether it by a 10sec clip or not is racist and is racist behavior no matter what else you know about that person. End of story.. my opinion.. I don't defend those who are racist in behavior.
your knowledge of the situation doesn't change what was said.

As a father, if my son ever said anything like this I would be the one addressing the media because clearly I failed big time in raising a well mannered and respectable Christian child. And you can be sure that I would impress upon him how serious the situation is because that is NOT how he was raised.

Outside of addressing the media, that is largely how the responsible parties' parents have handled this (at least those that I know)

After reading this I have concluded that some of you need to take a step back and re-examine your lives because you seem to have placed the center of the racist/not racist scale directly where you are standing and the reality is you are standing over on the racist side.

As a father, if my son ever said anything like this I would be the one addressing the media because clearly I failed big time in raising a well mannered and respectable Christian child. And you can be sure that I would impress upon him how serious the situation is because that is NOT how he was raised.

Do you bring your own cross with you to save yourself time?

Ummm I believe you said my "Opinion" on the matter made me ignorant. so my response was to you.
I would say the same thing to anyones face. I find it indefenseable to use such language and to sing it with such glee whether it by a 10sec clip or not is racist and is racist behavior no matter what else you know about that person. End of story.. my opinion.. I don't defend those who are racist in behavior.
your knowledge of the situation doesn't change what was said.

No, I said your opinion was ignorant. Never said that you were, though maybe I should have.

Then to each his own. No point in continuing this...we will not see eye to eye on it.

...I can say that about my home...And my fraternity house, which was my home for 4 years, while I was in it.

Also, congrats on not letting your kids listen to rap music...wise choice, unless things change with that genre, I may be doing the same in a few years.

So then why are you defending it or making excuses. Man up and just say, "that didn't happen on my watch and if that is what is taking place now then consider all ties broken. I want no part of it."

Also, rap isn't music, and it is not listened to in my house. Well, unless you consider the song Convoy rap. My kids have heard that song

Do you bring your own cross with you to save yourself time?

What do you mean?

So then why are you defending it or making excuses. Man up and just say, "that didn't happen on my watch and if that is what is taking place now then consider all ties broken. I want no part of it."

Also, rap isn't music, and it is not listened to in my house. Well, unless you consider the song Convoy rap. My kids have heard that song

I have "Manned up" several times and said what they did was wrong and that the place was broken and has needed a change for several years now. I've also never defended "it" and made excuses for "it". I've condemned the song and the people that sung it since I first saw the video. I've only said that 50 people should not be defined has racists for the rest of their lives because of a ten second video clip of them singing a racist song while drunk on a bus during the second semester of their freshmen year. If you haven't seen that in my posts, you've either ignored portions of them or have skipped past them altogether.

I started off defending the fact that there isn't a tradition or culture of racism in the house or the national fraternity with examples that I cited above because a tradition or culture of racism implies something that has been around for awhile...which would include the time that I was active there. I then got sucked into the pissing match that this thread has become.

To answer your question, loyalty. While I can condemn what they did all day, I can't just "consider all ties broken" with an organization that I care about. If you weren't in a fraternity, it's probably something that's difficult for you to understand, but the fraternity extends far beyond the 4+ years you spend it school. I'm the fourth generation of my family back to my great grandfather that have been a part of SAE. Many of my friends, my dads friends, and my business colleagues are SAEs. Many of those people that I've talked with over the last few weeks, whether they were there in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 2000s, have been almost physically sickened by this because it is not something that was sung while we were there, is not part of the fraternities values, and because we all care and are sad to see what was a great chapter go down the tubes like this. If I have sons, I would like for them to have an opportunity to be a part of the fraternity, especially if they choose to attend OU, which gives me and others who actually have kids now, a vested interest in rebuilding and helping to salvage the reputation of SAE at OU... which is obviously going to take a lot of work and time. I wouldn't have wanted my kids to be a part of what the OU SAE house was becoming over the last few years for reasons unrelated to this, which is why I've advocated shutting it down or doing a major review of the membership for the last few years. One dumb class pledge class or even 2 to 3 subpar ones, would be a ridiculous reason to cut ties with a 100 year old chapter in a 150 year old organization...but it provides a opportunity to make changes to improve the organization. Unfortunately in this case... those changes came too late.

While I would love to throw all the freshmen who participated or even the rest of the current membership under the bus (see what I did there?) for this to salvage the chapter at OU, I can't because I know several of them or at least their families and know they were brought up to know that what they did was wrong and that they are not, nor are their families, racist. Again, believe what you want, that's your choice, but that is my opinion based on my intimate knowledge of this. I also think this could've been handled better all around and, like several articles written by people of all races have said, could've been used as a teaching moment instead of inciting a worldwide riot with people sending death threats to and/or attacking OU students in other greek houses or in general.

Agree on rap. And funny that you mention Convoy...my dad actually did a skit based on Convoy with his fraternity brothers during his pledgeship at SAE.

I've only said that 50 people should not be defined has racists for the rest of their lives because of a ten second video clip of them singing a racist song while drunk on a bus during the second semester of their freshmen year.

I think this is where the disconnect is. The 10 second video is of them getting caught. If you think this is an isolated 10 second lapse in judgment (that by some fluke of nature just happened to be caught on a cellphone at the very moment it happened) then the rest of us are going to see that as naivete on your part or a cover-up/denial of reality from a 4th generation 'loyal' member. Neither of those options cast a good light.

Also, I was not in a fraternity.

Now as for the people involved. I am not of the mind set of 'once a racist always a racist', or even that saying completely offensive things makes one a racist. Only they know where their hearts are. Sometimes one has to do something really stupid to self-realize just how far off the rails one has come, but make no mistake, they came off the rails long before that video was taken. At that point the question becomes, what did they (SAE) know, and when did they know it? Your take seems to be that they knew nothing, and didn't know it until they saw the video. No one is buying that.

Also, rap isn't music, and it is not listened to in my house. Well, unless you consider the song Convoy rap. My kids have heard that song

And here we go with the overgeneralizations against a primarly black form of music. All rap music is racist and wrong... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I will say that if those who have been working with this kid in the OKC black community forgive this kid then I'm not here to question his heart. But I'm more concerned that we actually deal with racism in a real way and quit excusing it away as if it's not a problem...

At the risk of "stereotyping" myself, and others, I must say that when I was very, very young I was exposed to Disney's version of "The Song of The South." I remember thinking that Uncle Remus was the kindest and wisest man ever. (there weren't a lot of folks of "African American Heritage" in the little town with a university where I grew up/older. There were lots of Frats and Sororities in that same little town, nestled at the foot of The Front Range. College Kids in general and Frat Rats especially couldn't hold a candle to Uncle Remus. Later, during the turbulent 60's, I was a big supporter of The Black Panther Party . . . although their anti-thesis, Dr. Martin Luther King, was my real hero (and remains one of the same to this very day). All this entire fiasco is about is Proving "Liberal Guilt" is Real so people get distracted from the rest of the B.S. (the more meaningful and important stuff being fumbled all over the place by "the powers that be."

(just for the record: I got invited to Pledge for a Frat at CU. I declined the offer. Mostly due to the character of the Bozo who made the offer. What a friggin' dork. Let me rephrase that: One more of the vastly greater sea of White [N-word]s than those of a slightly darker skin tone that I've encountered in my life. I was never in a Frat--nor, later, a motorcycle gang. =)

Please Be Advised: "The Oversensitive Might Be Offended"
and regular people might be enlightened . . .
gfNhiRGQ-js
(another one of my "mentors") . . . only slightly out of time . . . =)
hzl7G9XhLxc

Here's one of my old but good faves, RM.

EqP3wT5lpa4

And here we go with the overgeneralizations against a primarly black form of music. All rap music is racist and wrong... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I will say that if those who have been working with this kid in the OKC black community forgive this kid then I'm not here to question his heart. But I'm more concerned that we actually deal with racism in a real way and quit excusing it away as if it's not a problem...

You know, I originally wrote that rap isn't music, it is poetry spoken to a beat - just not poetry that I like (then just decided to explain what I thought it wasn't, not what I thought it was). Anyhow, there is probably nothing left for me to say on this subject so peace out.

I think this is where the disconnect is. The 10 second video is of them getting caught. If you think this is an isolated 10 second lapse in judgment (that by some fluke of nature just happened to be caught on a cellphone at the very moment it happened) then the rest of us are going to see that as naivete on your part or a cover-up/denial of reality from a 4th generation 'loyal' member. Neither of those options cast a good light.

Also, I was not in a fraternity.

Now as for the people involved. I am not of the mind set of 'once a racist always a racist', or even that saying completely offensive things makes one a racist. Only they know where their hearts are. Sometimes one has to do something really stupid to self-realize just how far off the rails one has come, but make no mistake, they came off the rails long before that video was taken. At that point the question becomes, what did they (SAE) know, and when did they know it? Your take seems to be that they knew nothing, and didn't know it until they saw the video. No one is buying that.

On the first part, I'm not naive, nor attempting a cover up nor am I in denial. The fact that I KNOW (Not think I know) more about this situation than you, anyone else here, or the story the media has told on it has led me to my conclusion and opinions on this. Whether you believe what I have to say or not is your choice, I don't really care much one way or the other. Though I don't really appreciate the insinuation that I'm lying to protect my fraternity...as I've said before, what do I have to gain from that? I am an anonymous poster talking to other anonymous posters, many of whom no longer live here and many of whom will not have any real impact on this situation....why would I waste my time covering this up on among a bunch of anonymous people who will likely never have any measurable impact on me (outside of the 5 or so people I know here)?

I think there is little doubt that it was a lapse in judgement for them to sing that chant in general,but especially in the company of the women on that bus. Everything that led up to that was a series of colossal mistakes (again I can't disclose most of that yet). My take is not that they knew nothing, nor have I ever said it was. As I've said before the facts on this certainly don't make anyone look good, but they also don't make this look near as horrid as the media has portrayed it to be or what everyone had dreamed up over the last few weeks.