What I found surprising in the article was the admission from just about everyone (except the Sandridge consultant) who directly linked the earthquakes with the wastewater injection. The industry has been in total denial on that for years. What I found most appalling though is just how much toxic waste has been pumped into the ground under Oklahoma.


The state has about 3,200 active injection wells that disposed of a combined 1.1 billion barrels of wastewater in 2013

If 60 Minutes ran a story just on that activity alone the entire state would be as popular to live in as Picher is.

You could but it still wouldn’t change some people's minds, much like Picher Oklahoma.

I've been attacked on this board over the last two years for reposting data and saying there was a link in certain instances between waste water injection and the earthquakes. I can't count the times I've been told that there is no negative consequences, , that I didn’t know what I was talking about, or that I hate industry - all complete hyperbole that lacked actual thought and substance.

Read any news story on earthquakes or water contamination and listen to them fall over themselves in defense of their overseers; as if to gain some sort of approval in their eyes.

What I found surprising in the article was the admission from just about everyone (except the Sandridge consultant) who directly linked the earthquakes with the wastewater injection. The industry has been in total denial on that for years. What I found most appalling though is just how much toxic waste has been pumped into the ground under Oklahoma. If 60 Minutes ran a story just on that activity alone the entire state would be as popular to live in as Picher is.

You really need to quit commenting on things that you have no idea about. Toxic Waste? You realize the salt water that they are pumping back into the ground came from that same ground? Obviously you did not. They are separating the salt water from a producing formation and pumping it back into the ground in a different formation that will "absorb" the water. In this instance, deeper than it originally sat.

Please use better discretion when posting from now on. It's people like you that perpetuate myths/lies, no matter the subject.

You really need to quit commenting on things that you have no idea about. Toxic Waste? You realize the salt water that they are pumping back into the ground came from that same ground? Obviously you did not. They are separating the salt water from a producing formation and pumping it back into the ground in a different formation that will "absorb" the water. In this instance, deeper than it originally sat.

Please use better discretion when posting from now on. It's people like you that perpetuate myths/lies, no matter the subject.

Directly from the article:


Injection wells are used to dispose of wastewater, laden with salt and toxic chemicals, produced from oil and gas wells.

If fracking wastewater only contains salt why is the industry protected from having to disclose what is in it?

http://www.midwestenergynews.com/2014/10/02/ohio-fracking-and-shale-waste-worries-critics/

I await your response.

On second thought - don't even bother responding as this is the wrong thread for this topic. I'll just stand by what was in the article and leave it at that.

On Monday Sandridge was asked to shutdown one of their salt water injection wells near Cherokee. That's a big deal since the SWD areas and the infrastructure surrounding those are the key points amongst all of the completion wells that have already been drilled. Will increase the cost to ship that water somewhere else down the line. The biggest reason SD does well in the mississipian area is because of their salt water infrastructure. Wonder if this will be a continuing trend.

State orders injection well shut down after northwestern Oklahoma earthquake | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5390506?slideout=1)

From the Tulsa World article that the newsok article links to:

"Dozens of scientific studies since the 1970s, including several studies of Oklahoma earthquakes, have linked injection wells and earthquakes. Scientists at the U.S. Geological Survey have also said they believe that the state’s increased seismicity is due to injection wells."

Since the 1970s??? Weren't we told that there was absolutely no evidence that injection wells caused earthquakes, many many many times by many many many people just a year or so ago? :doh:

Since the 1970s??? Weren't we told that there was absolutely no evidence that injection wells caused earthquakes, many many many times by many many many people just a year or so ago? :doh:

Dude - they are still saying that today. My guess is a fair amount of OKCTalk posters who are employed in this industry don't want to be an easy target for workforce reduction measures so they parrot the company line.

Here is an excerpt from the article:


A consultant for SandRidge, J.P. Dick, testified during the hearing that the company planned to drill numerous horizontal wells in the region, known as the Mississippian.
...
Dick told the commission he had examined well logs for the area and “determined that there is no faulting in the immediate area.” He said “the recent seismic activity in this area appears to be naturally occurring” and the injection well’s operation would not trigger earthquakes in the area.

So I guess he feels the shutdown order was fraudulent.

Directly from the article:



If fracking wastewater only contains salt why is the industry protected from having to disclose what is in it?

Ohio fracking waste issues go beyond chemical disclosure | Midwest Energy News (http://www.midwestenergynews.com/2014/10/02/ohio-fracking-and-shale-waste-worries-critics/)

I await your response.

On second thought - don't even bother responding as this is the wrong thread for this topic. I'll just stand by what was in the article and leave it at that.

Well I guess it's a good thing that they're pulling all of that nasty toxic oil and gas out of the ground so that it won't be down there to pollute all the previously depleted formations that they are dumping all that toxic frac fluid and salt water into...

I guess I don't understand that logic. Are you saying pulling oil and gas trapped in rock from one location and pumping toxic chemical infused water into rock at another location makes an 'even-Steven' situation?

I'm saying that the hydrocarbons (that are naturally infused with saltwater)being pulled out of the ground and separated from produced water are about a million times more toxic than the salt water and frac fluid that are being disposed of. I'm also saying that that salt water and frac fluid is being disposed of in formations previously occupied by oil and gas that were depleted years ago. Injection/disposal wells are also often former producing wells that have either been recompleted to a depleted zone or inject into the original formation they produced from. So if you have a problem with injecting toxic chemicals (again, about 99% salt water) into the ground that were the byproduct of oil and gas production, you are either ignorant to how the process works or are towing the environmentalist line and have an issue with oil and gas production in general.

Also, as far as disclosing what is in frac fluid, operators are not required by the federal government to disclose chemicals in frac fluid because the vast majority of oil and gas regulation is left to state governments. I can't speak for other states, but operators in oklahoma ARE required to disclose the contents of their frac fluid on a well by well basis at fracfocus.com or to the corporation commission to be posted on fracfocus.com.

http://m.newsok.com/new-disclosure-rules-target-chemicals-used-in-fracking/article/3919475

W
Dude - they are still saying that today. My guess is a fair amount of OKCTalk posters who are employed in this industry don't want to be an easy target for workforce reduction measures so they parrot the company line.
.

And this smug bullsh** comment sums up my frustration (and I'm sure I'm not alone) with posting about oil and gas related issues here. If we work for the oil and gas industry, I guess we can't have opinions based on the facts we've learned from what we do on a day to day basis. If we post comments based on the knowledge we've accumulated through decades of experience that differ from your opinion or the article written by a reporter who studied oil and gas for a week, it's always "parroting the company line" or "protecting our jobs" (you realize we all post anonymously, right?). Sure we're all biased toward the energy industry but I would make the argument that many of the posters that are not in the industry are just as biased against it.

If you disagree with us or read an article somewhere that differs from the opinions or facts we present, good for you, post it for discussion, but stop claiming that we only post as a bunch of mindless robots working tirelessly for some industry PR firm.

From the Tulsa World article that the newsok article links to:

"Dozens of scientific studies since the 1970s, including several studies of Oklahoma earthquakes, have linked injection wells and earthquakes. Scientists at the U.S. Geological Survey have also said they believe that the state’s increased seismicity is due to injection wells."

Since the 1970s??? Weren't we told that there was absolutely no evidence that injection wells caused earthquakes, many many many times by many many many people just a year or so ago? :doh:

Injection wells have been around since before the 70's, yet it's only in the last few years that they cause earthquakes. SO why didn't it happen before now? None of the anti-energy crowd can answer that.

Reading the last few pages of this thread is like living in an alternate universe. Where energy companies (and their lackeys) live in one universe and everybody else lives in another. Living in Oklahoma City is like living in an insular world of big energy spin, contempt for anybody who dares to question, and the broad swath of media and culture here is bought and paid for (literally). Kerry, I rarely post anymore because it's like one big long trip to Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Keep posting and taking the fight to these people. They have no shame. They have only a sense of entitlement in this city that makes the city of the Kerr days mild in comparison.

Reading the last few pages of this thread is like living in an alternate universe. Where energy companies (and their lackeys) live in one universe and everybody else lives in another. Living in Oklahoma City is like living in an insular world of big energy spin, contempt for anybody who dares to question, and the broad swath of media and culture here is bought and paid for (literally). Kerry, I rarely post anymore because it's like one big long trip to Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Keep posting and taking the fight to these people. They have no shame. They have only a sense of entitlement in this city that makes the city of the Kerr days mild in comparison.

You are one of the posters I was referring to above... And quit making long diatribes claiming people were attacking you 6 months ago and then avoid responding when we provide examples of how no one was really even rude to you, they just disagreed. If you're going to claim that you plan to stop participating, stop. Sniping and running away makes you look like a child.

Maybe we should just forget everything we've learned throughout our time working in and studying to work in the oil and gas industry and agree with everything you or anyone against the industry says. What's a decade or three of real world experience when you can read 10 articles online and become an Internet energy expert?

Phi - You are acting like the child by changing the subject. You don't know what went on back when I wrote that post, there's more to OKCTalk than just these public forums. I WAS sick of it. I DID need a break. I STILL don't post like I used to.

By the way, do you monitor this board 24/7 in order to come to the rescue of Oklahoma City's Big Energy cartel? Your last post was an example of what's so pathetic about the pro-industry do-know-wrong posters. Your words: "You are one of the posters I was referring to above..." If you just demonize us as stupid and full of BS, you think you'll win ANY argument. Please realize that there are some of us that take the words of local homers with a grain of salt. Like I said above, it's like an alternate universe. Beam me up Scotty!

Phi - You are acting like the child by changing the subject. You don't know what went on back when I wrote that post, there's more to OKCTalk than just these public forums. I WAS sick of it. I DID need a break. I STILL don't post like I used to.

By the way, do you monitor this board 24/7 in order to come to the rescue of Oklahoma City's Big Energy cartel? Your last post was an example of what's so pathetic about the pro-industry do-know-wrong posters. Your words: "You are one of the posters I was referring to above..." If you just demonize us as stupid and full of BS, you think you'll win ANY argument. Please realize that there are some of us that take the words of local homers with a grain of salt. Like I said above, it's like an alternate universe. Beam me up Scotty!

As I said above in response to Kerry's comment claiming anyone that supports or works in the industry is a mindless shill for their employers, you ARE one of the posters I was referring to and your last post proves it. You and Kerry come off as anti-industry "do no wrong" posters. And you know as well as I do that I've never claimed that the industry does no wrong...I also never said you or anyone else was stupid...I said that claiming our comments derived from real life experiences are useless because we work in the industry is a weak argument.

Like I said above, I guess we should all just forget our years of experience and agree with you, because according to you, none of the facts we present are worth anything, right?

Phi - You are acting like the child by changing the subject. You don't know what went on back when I wrote that post, there's more to OKCTalk than just these public forums. I WAS sick of it. I DID need a break. I STILL don't post like I used to.

By the way, do you monitor this board 24/7 in order to come to the rescue of Oklahoma City's Big Energy cartel? Your last post was an example of what's so pathetic about the pro-industry do-know-wrong posters. Your words: "You are one of the posters I was referring to above..." If you just demonize us as stupid and full of BS, you think you'll win ANY argument. Please realize that there are some of us that take the words of local homers with a grain of salt. Like I said above, it's like an alternate universe. Beam me up Scotty!

Also, I appologize for changing the subject, but you never responded when we called you out in the oil prices thread. I figured I might as well throw that in here since there is no telling when you will appear again to drop knowledge on all of us industry rednecks who know not what we do...

As I said above in response to Kerry's comment claiming anyone that supports or works in the industry is a mindless shill for their employers, you ARE one of the posters I was referring to and your last post proves it. You and Kerry come off as anti-industry "do no wrong" posters. And you know as well as I do that I've never claimed that the industry does no wrong...I also never said you or anyone else was stupid...I said that claiming our comments derived from real life experiences are useless because we work in the industry is a weak argument.

Like I said above, I guess we should all just forget our years of experience and agree with you, because according to you, none of the facts we present are worth anything, right?

You can't deny that it comes across as PR shilling for the industry. I just don't think the way to progress is to defend the industry at all costs. At some point, you come across as selling out your values and principles that you hopefully have for humanity - and not just the oil and gas industry. They are often at odds. If there's anything Kerry and I are saying, it is that. Makes me think of the song....

Lord it's the same old tune, fiddle and guitar
Where do we take it from here?
Rhinestone suits and new shiny cars
It's been the same way for years
We need to change
Somebody told me when I came to Nashville
Son you finally got it made
Old Hank made it here, we're all sure that you will
But I don't think Hank done it this way, no
I don't think Hank done it this way, okay

Ten years on the road, making one night stand
Speeding my young life away
Tell me one more time just so I'll understand
Are you sure Hank done it this way?
Did old Hank really do it this way?

But I don't think Hank done 'em this way, no
I don't think Hank done 'em this way, take it home.

You can't deny that it comes across as PR shilling for the industry. I just don't think the way to progress is to defend the industry at all costs. At some point, you come across as selling out your values and principles that you hopefully have for humanity - and not just the oil and gas industry. They are often at odds. If there's anything Kerry and I are saying, it is that. Makes me think of the song....

Lord it's the same old tune, fiddle and guitar
Where do we take it from here?
Rhinestone suits and new shiny cars
It's been the same way for years
We need to change
Somebody told me when I came to Nashville
Son you finally got it made
Old Hank made it here, we're all sure that you will
But I don't think Hank done it this way, no
I don't think Hank done it this way, okay

Ten years on the road, making one night stand
Speeding my young life away
Tell me one more time just so I'll understand
Are you sure Hank done it this way?
Did old Hank really do it this way?

But I don't think Hank done 'em this way, no
I don't think Hank done 'em this way, take it home.

Dude, going off the deep end a bit with those lyrics...

So let me get this straight again, anyone supporting the industry comes off as a shill for the industry and is selling their soul by defending it when many people here/elsewhere bash it for reasons that we feel/know are factually flawed?

Dude, going off the deep end a bit with those lyrics...

So let me get this straight again, anyone supporting the industry comes off as a shill for the industry and is selling their soul by defending it when many people here/elsewhere bash it for reasons that we feel/know are factually flawed?

This is all I will say for today.

It's not "going off the deep end," (and you wonder why I felt the way I did a few moths ago)? I think there is a lot in that song that maybe you simply don't want to see.

I think more than anything, it's almost like a 24/7 "policing" of energy threads, making sure the industry is defended within hours, or with you so often, within minutes.

It's Sunday. I'm going to take it easy. Have a good rest of the weekend.

This is all I will say for today.

It's not "going off the deep end," (and you wonder why I felt the way I did a few moths ago)? I think there is a lot in that song that maybe you simply don't want to see.

I think more than anything, it's almost like a 24/7 "policing" of energy threads, making sure the industry is defended within hours, or with you so often, within minutes.

It's Sunday. I'm going to take it easy. Have a good rest of the weekend.

No I just think it's hokey to use song lyrics in an arguement...

i read the energy threads and comment in them all the time because it's something I understand enough to provide knowledgable input. If you read them more, you would see that it's not just me disagreeing with people, but I assure you I don't sit at my desk all day hitting refresh and waiting for someone to make any negative comment about the industry.i generally wait until someone says something ignorant enough that I feel a need to speak up.

However since I'm a member of the energy police, I doubt any answer or comment I make will be sufficient. we'll have to agree to disagree, have a good Sunday as well.

Let's get back to the very specific subject that TheTravellers and I were talking about, and that was the near constant claim from the OKCTalk Oil Company Knowledge Base that has claimed for years - and even right up to 5 posts ago, that wastewater injection from fracking was NOT causing earthquakes - and then we find out in the Tulsa World story that behind the scenes everyone from Sandridge executives, to the OIPA, to state regulators, to state and federal geologist ALL new they were connected. In fact, the only paid person still maintaining they aren't connect was the Sandridge consultant who was paid to say it (I guess so the industry-deniers still had a bucket to carry the wastewater in).

Can we all agree now that wastewater injection from fracking is connected to earthquakes, or are people still wanting to deny it?

Injection wells have been around since before the 70's, yet it's only in the last few years that they cause earthquakes. SO why didn't it happen before now? None of the anti-energy crowd can answer that.

I'm not saying either way what is causing them, but this is a pretty specious logic to address a geological question. I mean we see things like sink holes form every day that are caused by mining activities that ceased decades before. And IF injection wells are triggering quakes, it probably has more to do with location and volume. It's not like there would be some sort of direct ratio of well activity to earthquakes. IF injection wells can cause earthquakes, I bet there are locations and volumes at which they could operate that would greatly mitigate the possibility for the side affect of earthquakes or other geological impacts.

I mean, really, I think the most troubling thing is the hubris with which the debate is approached. The idea that we can significantly alter the geological make up of an area and expect zero impact on that area's geology is just as crazy as taking the position that certain practices will always affect the geology in the same way, either negatively or neutrally. There is a huge void in the understanding of what exactly the long terms effects are and what constitutes responsible disposal practices and what ones pose a risk to the community. As each side continues the debate from an absolute position, it seems our actual understanding of what is happening gets worse.

BDP that last sentence is great, not just in this argument but any really.

As each side continues the debate from an absolute position, it seems our actual understanding of what is happening gets worse.

As a right-winger on the anti-fracking side all I can say is that I, and the people I know, am not saying that every injection well causes an earthquake regardless of volume. All I am claiming is that the vast majority of Oklahoma earthquakes are being caused by injection wells. There is a difference. What I take exception with are the industry defenders who claim there is no connection at all - meaning no earthquake was ever the result of wastewater injection.

Of course, we now know that industry executives, geologist, and regulators all know that earthquakes are being caused by injection wells so this whole debate is now probably moot. The only real discussion left on the subject is are the earthquake risks worth the reward and what happens if insurance companies start denying claims by calling them industrial accidents (vs. an act of God). Will Sandridge, and other oil companies, be able to cover the liability costs if that happens?

A What I take exception with are the industry defenders who claim there is no connection at all - meaning no earthquake was ever the result of wastewater injection.

Sort of like right wingers saying that there is no global warming and people have nothing to do with it?

On the earthquake discussion: correlation doesn't always equal causation. Think about this. Our state has a complex geologic and tectonic history. Our state underwent complex tectonic compression in Pennsylvanian times which created the ouachita/Arbuckle mountains were created and thought to have been as tall as the rockie mountains are today. Around the same time, you had the creation of the Wichita mountains, but these were created by slightly different tectonic processes. Now, dividing these two features, you have the creation of the nemaha ridge which runs north-south through the state along the I-35 corridor. This is a complex geologic structure that has been present since some of the oldest rocks in the state were deposited. I'm telling you all of this because you need to know that between the basins here, we have complex geologic structures.

Now, our faults are actually accumulating stresses much like the San Andreas fault in California albeit at a much slower rate. The Wichita mountains are not isostatically balanced meaning that the core of those mountains is composed of rock much denser than the surrounding material, so it is actually trying to sink into the crust causing it to flex and impart stress on surrounding faults (research meers fault and you will find our state had a magnitude 7 10000 years ago). You have the Madrid fault that moved not too long ago, and you have the ongoing movement of the crustal plates. All of these things have caused our faults to become stressed over time.

Now, injection near a fault that is stressed and aligned at the appropriate orientation relative to regional stress directions can cause the fault to slip. The fluids injected can increase pore pressure and reduce the friction coefficients of the fault surface resulting in slip. However, you need a very specific set of conditions to cause this to happen. Not every fault will slip. At the end of the day disposal wells can cause earthquakes, but it will typically be localized around the wellbore. Our seismicity is fairlh widespread, so there are like multiple reasons why we are seeing eqs here. We probably have some natural slip occurring as these faults release the stresses built up over millions of years, and we also have some small perturbations of stresses around some faults related to disposal wells. Is the former related to the latter ? Because of our complex geology, that is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer.

Of course, we now know that industry executives, geologist, and regulators all know that earthquakes are being caused by injection wells so this whole debate is now probably moot. The only real discussion left on the subject is are the earthquake risks worth the reward and what happens if insurance companies start denying claims by calling them industrial accidents (vs. an act of God). Will Sandridge, and other oil companies, be able to cover the liability costs if that happens?

This is absolute horse crap for the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts. The earth is too complex here to know with any certainty that disposal is the absolute reason we are having eqs here. If we didn't have any eqs at all before the ramp up in activity, I might buy this, but our state has a rich history of seismic activity. Nobody knows for certain why we are having these eq swarms...

On the earthquake discussion: correlation doesn't always equal causation. Think about this. Our state has a complex geologic and tectonic history. Our state underwent complex tectonic compression in Pennsylvanian times which created the ouachita/Arbuckle mountains were created and thought to have been as tall as the rockie mountains are today. Around the same time, you had the creation of the Wichita mountains, but these were created by slightly different tectonic processes. Now, dividing these two features, you have the creation of the nemaha ridge which runs north-south through the state along the I-35 corridor. This is a complex geologic structure that has been present since some of the oldest rocks in the state were deposited. I'm telling you all of this because you need to know that between the basins here, we have complex geologic structures.

Now, our faults are actually accumulating stresses much like the San Andreas fault in California albeit at a much slower rate. The Wichita mountains are not isostatically balanced meaning that the core of those mountains is composed of rock much denser than the surrounding material, so it is actually trying to sink into the crust causing it to flex and impart stress on surrounding faults (research meers fault and you will find our state had a magnitude 7 10000 years ago). You have the Madrid fault that moved not too long ago, and you have the ongoing movement of the crustal plates. All of these things have caused our faults to become stressed over time.

Now, injection near a fault that is stressed and aligned at the appropriate orientation relative to regional stress directions can cause the fault to slip. The fluids injected can increase pore pressure and reduce the friction coefficients of the fault surface resulting in slip. However, you need a very specific set of conditions to cause this to happen. Not every fault will slip. At the end of the day disposal wells can cause earthquakes, but it will typically be localized around the wellbore. Our seismicity is fairlh widespread, so there are like multiple reasons why we are seeing eqs here. We probably have some natural slip occurring as these faults release the stresses built up over millions of years, and we also have some small perturbations of stresses around some faults related to disposal wells. Is the former related to the latter ? Because of our complex geology, that is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer.

Where is your peer review for your post, because apparently without that your knowledge is garbage.

Where is your peer review for your post, because apparently without that your knowledge is garbage.

There are some publicly available papers published by the Oklahoma geologic society, but I don't have them available on my phone to post the actual pdf. Our state's geological history is fairly well known so none of that post is groundbreaking news (pun intended). The discussion on stress is a combination of my understanding of stress build up on faults from my thesis, personal conversations with various seismologists, and various papers I have read throughout the years. The ogs seismologist gave a talk recently regarding what conditions define a fault at risk of slipping because of nearby injection.

Sorry that I posted actual peer reviewed journals by real scientist, and credible news sources vs taking a millennials personal experience in the field?

Feel free to go back through my post history and repost whatever I said that hasn't been backed up by real verifiable data over the last few years.. Until then stop acting so personally hurt about being wrong.

C_M_25, his response was a tongue in cheek response to this earlier post...

CM - I don’t disagree with anything you posted and I don’t think anyone has ever made the leap that Every injection well activates seismic activity; as you said under certain conditions the likelihood of it happening exponentially increases.

Plus I think we've reached the point of the collective conversation it's impossible for any informed person to say that these are naturally occurring and they have nothing to do with industry activity.

And here come the class action lawsuits….

Attorney sues energy companies seeking class-action status for earthquake victims in nine counties - Tulsa World: Homepage1 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/attorney-sues-energy-companies-seeking-class-action-status-for-earthquake/article_22ca5866-633d-5dd7-ab30-7b7b81da73fe.html)

This is absolute horse crap for the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts. The earth is too complex here to know with any certainty that disposal is the absolute reason we are having eqs here. If we didn't have any eqs at all before the ramp up in activity, I might buy this, but our state has a rich history of seismic activity. Nobody knows for certain why we are having these eq swarms...

So you believe the Sandridge well was shut down by the State for no reason?

So just to make sure, lets have a 1 year moratorium on fracturing. If the earthquakes subside to the levels and magnitude of 5 years ago the moratorium is made permanent. In the meantime, those companies engaging in the practice should have to create an escrow account to cover damages should a link be established.

So just to make sure, lets have a 1 year moratorium on fracturing. If the earthquakes subside to the levels and magnitude of 5 years ago the moratorium is made permanent. In the meantime, those companies engaging in the practice should have to create an escrow account to cover damages should a link be established.

A moratorim on fracturing would only reduce the amount of produced water from new production coming online and would reduce the amount of frac flow back water being disposed of. It wouldn't reduce the huge amout of saltwater being produced and disposed of by previously drilled wells that are currently in production. That water collectively far exceeds the amount disposed of for frac flowback. While recent studies have show that frac'ing could be responsible for very small earthquakes, the current theory is that the larger ones are caused by high volume produced saltwater injection. That being the case, In order to run the experiment you suggest, all drilling, completion and production activity would have to be stopped. Aside from the fact that no one will ever enforce a moratorium like that here or probably anywhere, one year may not even be enough to make an accurate assessment.

On your escrow idea, oil and gas companies make money off current production and new production. How do you suggest that they create an escrow account with negative cash flow when you cut off their entire source of income for the year.

On the earthquake discussion: correlation doesn't always equal causation. Think about this. Our state has a complex geologic and tectonic history. Our state underwent complex tectonic compression in Pennsylvanian times which created the ouachita/Arbuckle mountains were created and thought to have been as tall as the rockie mountains are today. Around the same time, you had the creation of the Wichita mountains, but these were created by slightly different tectonic processes. Now, dividing these two features, you have the creation of the nemaha ridge which runs north-south through the state along the I-35 corridor. This is a complex geologic structure that has been present since some of the oldest rocks in the state were deposited. I'm telling you all of this because you need to know that between the basins here, we have complex geologic structures.

Now, our faults are actually accumulating stresses much like the San Andreas fault in California albeit at a much slower rate. The Wichita mountains are not isostatically balanced meaning that the core of those mountains is composed of rock much denser than the surrounding material, so it is actually trying to sink into the crust causing it to flex and impart stress on surrounding faults (research meers fault and you will find our state had a magnitude 7 10000 years ago). You have the Madrid fault that moved not too long ago, and you have the ongoing movement of the crustal plates. All of these things have caused our faults to become stressed over time.

Now, injection near a fault that is stressed and aligned at the appropriate orientation relative to regional stress directions can cause the fault to slip. The fluids injected can increase pore pressure and reduce the friction coefficients of the fault surface resulting in slip. However, you need a very specific set of conditions to cause this to happen. Not every fault will slip. At the end of the day disposal wells can cause earthquakes, but it will typically be localized around the wellbore. Our seismicity is fairlh widespread, so there are like multiple reasons why we are seeing eqs here. We probably have some natural slip occurring as these faults release the stresses built up over millions of years, and we also have some small perturbations of stresses around some faults related to disposal wells. Is the former related to the latter ? Because of our complex geology, that is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer.

Best post I've seen on this issue from anyone at OKCTalk.

While recent studies have show that frac'ing could be responsible for very small earthquakes, the current theory is that the larger ones are caused by high volume produced saltwater injection.

Finally, we are making progress. Do you agree with that assessment C_M_25?

I don't see the big deal with small earthquakes.

Yes, and nothing wrong with a few degrees of heating of the earth every decade or so.

. On your escrow idea, oil and gas companies make money off current production and new production. How do you suggest that they create an escrow account with negative cash flow?


I would suggest this being created from the profits they make. Are you telling me that they don't bankroll Political Action Committee / lobbyists? Where do they get the money? New sky scrapers and office buildings? Not trying to be a smart azz, but if they have funds for these activities, certainly they could establish an escrow account to pay for incurred damages should they be liable.

Phi...could you post the differences of produced/flow back/salt waters and how they relate to the process? I don't think everyone knows the difference and that might help some understanding.

I would suggest this being created from the profits they make. Are you telling me that they don't bankroll Political Action Committee / lobbyists? Where do they get the money? New sky scrapers and office buildings? Not trying to be a smart azz, but if they have funds for these activities, certainly they could establish an escrow account to pay for incurred damages should they be liable.

Asking a company to not make a dime on any well they have in Oklahoma for one year, sure the big boys could probably handle that and have the cash to survive, but you would put out of business many an independent producer.

Finally, we are making progress. Do you agree with that assessment C_M_25?

Not really sure what progress we're making? The only thing that has changed on my position is that Frac'ing itself can cause minor earthquakes after a few studies came out late last year, my main point was that frac'ing itself wasnt causing the vast majority of the earthquakes in OK...and that if anything it was high volume saltwater disposal. My position on waste water disposal earthquakes has been about the same as CM's for the last two years...could injection wells cause earthquakes...yes, could they also be naturally occurring...yes, should sweeping regulatory changes be made before many questions are answered about the cause and effect relationship (such as why this started in 2009 when we've been injecting at a fairly high volume during every energy boom in history, why some injection wells seem to cause them and others don't, etc)...no.

I did not believe these earthquakes could be human induced in 2009 or really until the last few years when more information came out of all the studies and increased focus from the USGS and OGS. Also, overlay's of earthquakes vs new disposal wells/volumes make it pretty evident that there could be a connection. I've had an issue with the fact that most of the studies have said something along the lines of: "water injection can cause earthquakes, has in the past, and we believe it could've been a factor in this earthquake, but more data is required." Which as CM said would be difficult if not impossible to determine for the previous large earthquakes, however, as more seismic equipment is put in the field, injection wells are heavily monitored, and injection wells are cycled on and off over time, I think we will be able to start making more definitlive conclusions. My stance has always been that we need a definitive answer as to if the earthquakes are being caused by injection and why it is happening before making any major changes, once that conclusion is reached I have no problem with finding a solution. The biggest issue is that without knowing beyond a reasonable doubt that certain earthquakes have been caused by injection and why that is happening, there's no way to know how to fix it. There will likely never be a complete moratorium on water disposal in Oklahoma or Texas, but if they can figure out what specifically about the injection process is causing some of them, regulatory changes can be made to dramatically reduce or eliminate them. Due to a history of oil and gas exploration, we have one of the most well mapped subsurfaces of any state in the U.S., with the increase in monitoring seismic and water disposal volume-wise, if anyone can find out why it is happening, OK has just about the best chance.

Phi...could you post the differences of produced/flow back/salt waters and how they relate to the process? I don't think everyone knows the difference and that might help some understanding.

be glad to later today or tomorrow.

Finally, we are making progress. Do you agree with that assessment C_M_25?

Yes, I have no argument with this. Hydraulic fracturing is designed to create fractures in rock where there were none before. This will create a seismic event; however, these events are negative magnitude (yes negative) which cannot be felt on the surface and require highly calibrated tools to measure their presence. As far as I know, there have been no cases documented in which hydraulic fracturing operations caused an earthquake or earthquake swarm that could be felt on the surface. There have been several documented cases in which disposal wells were attributed to sizable (mag 2-4, maybe 5?) seismic events. I believe one of these was in arkansas and the other was in texas. LIke I said before, you need a specific set of circumstances to cause a fault to slip, but it can be done.

As far as your question about the sandridge well. I don't know much about this well, but if the state has shut it down, that well has failed the new criteria for "at risk" disposal wells. It has either had recent seismic activity nearby the wellbore and/or it is near a fault that cuts deep into the earth's crust and said fault is oriented favorably for slip to occur.

Best post I've seen on this issue from anyone at OKCTalk.

Thank you sir (madam?)! This is my passion. I studied structural geology in school, and I am lucky enough to work in a field where I get to apply it. I always try to keep an unbiased mind when discussing/researching this topic. I'm just as interested in finding the correct answer as you guys are. There aren't many topics on here that I have a lot of knowledge on, but this is one of them.

Not really sure what progress we're making?

I did not believe these earthquakes could be human induced in 2009 or really until the last few years when more information came out of all the studies and increased focus from the USGS and OGS. Also, overlay's of earthquakes vs new disposal wells/volumes make it pretty evident that there could be a connection. .

I think the progress that is being made is the pivot away from the flawed stance that industry activity had nothing to do with these; and everyone who dared mentioned it were (insert whatever hyperbole insult).

For a rational discussion to happen both parties have to admit that there is a problem; and I think for the most part we are finally reaching that stage.

Now what I don't agree with is the continued dragging of feet in wanting years worth of more from the government for industry to respond and make tangible changes. They've proven once before that the general publics safety is of little concern and denial and stalling are some of the tactics they will use in skirting responsibility. Futhermore I don't understand this idea that we need to give them tax payer funded incentive or addition tax credits to solve the problems they are generating.

You're trying to make rational comments, but then you go into saying things like this....


They've proven once before that the general publics safety is of little concern

You know these companies office and live in the same places that these quakes are happening? You think they want their own personal property at risk just like yours?

I had to laugh at the Tulsa World article this week, complaining that half the commission formed to looking into possible E&P activities causing the quakes was made of half O&G industry people. Um, shouldn't you want the people who are allegedly responsible to be sitting at the table when trying to research the problem? Seems intelligent, not a knock.

ylouder, Phi's post last night was more in the direction of Jersey Boss who said fracturing was the cause, not at you.

- Let's be honest for a moment. Injection is by far the cheapest was to dispose of waste/ produced water; do you think anything would be done about the quakes if people weren’t outraged or would industry continue down the same path they have been on since 2008?

Much like the outrage from the public over proposed drilling at lake hefner, people quite frankly don’t give a darn if it isn’t happening in their back yard. Back on subject - until recently no one really cared about the earthquakes until they started hitting Edmond, Guthrie and Payne county (myself included).


-I haven't seen a single study /reputable report by anyone who has even remotely said that fracturing is the cause of any significant earthquakes. All of the data I've seen over the last few years have explicated pointed to the massive increase in the disposal of waste/produced water. The whole post was recovering ground that had already been covered years ago.

You're trying to make rational comments, but then you go into saying things like this....


They've proven once before that the general publics safety is of little concern

You know these companies office and live in the same places that these quakes are happening? You think they want their own personal property at risk just like yours?


Here is why ylouders comment is accurate; even though OKCTalkers are finally realizing/admitting the connection, oil company executives have know about it for years and actively tried to provide misinformation and mislead the public. Heck, in the Tulsa World story Sandridge explicitly paid a consultant to lie again. By virtue of their actions one can reasonably assume they didn't care. So long as profit was to be had they would say whatever they had to. It is no different than cigarette company executives covering up the dangers of smoking for 100 years.

- Let's be honest for a moment. Injection is by far the cheapest was to dispose of waste/ produced water; do you think anything would be done about the quakes if people weren’t outraged or would industry continue down the same path they have been on since 2008?

If I could I would love to find a way to recycle that water for use elsewhere, more so than I'd rather have a cure cancer.


-I haven't seen a single study /reputable report by anyone who has even remotely said that fracturing is the cause of any significant earthquakes. All of the data I've seen over the last few years have explicated pointed to the massive increase in the disposal of waste/produced water. The whole post was recovering ground that had already been covered years ago.

I know, but Jersey was calling for a moratorium on hydraulic fracturing, as if that would stop the quakes.

Here is why ylouders comment is accurate; even though OKCTalkers are finally realizing/admitting the connection, oil company executives have know about it for years and actively tried to provide misinformation and mislead the public. Heck, in the Tulsa World story Sandridge explicitly paid a consultant to lie again. By virtue of their actions one can reasonably assume they didn't care. So long as profit was to be had they would say whatever they had to. It is no different than cigarette company executives covering up the dangers of smoking for 100 years.

The actions of Sandridge = the entire industry

Glad we got that out of the way, got it.

Yes, I have no argument with this. Hydraulic fracturing is designed to create fractures in rock where there were none before. This will create a seismic event; however, these events are negative magnitude (yes negative) which cannot be felt on the surface and require highly calibrated tools to measure their presence. As far as I know, there have been no cases documented in which hydraulic fracturing operations caused an earthquake or earthquake swarm that could be felt on the surface. There have been several documented cases in which disposal wells were attributed to sizable (mag 2-4, maybe 5?) seismic events. I believe one of these was in arkansas and the other was in texas. LIke I said before, you need a specific set of circumstances to cause a fault to slip, but it can be done.

As far as your question about the sandridge well. I don't know much about this well, but if the state has shut it down, that well has failed the new criteria for "at risk" disposal wells. It has either had recent seismic activity nearby the wellbore and/or it is near a fault that cuts deep into the earth's crust and said fault is oriented favorably for slip to occur.

A hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, well in Ohio triggered scores of small earthquakes in March 2014, including one large enough to be felt in nearby towns, a new study confirms. The biggest quake, a magnitude 3, was one of the largest ever caused by fracking. State officials shut down the well two days after the earthquake hit.

Fracking involves the high-pressure injection of water, sand and chemicals into rock to break it up and release trapped oil and gas. In Ohio, fracking triggered earthquakes on a hidden fault in ancient crystalline rock beneath a natural gas well in the Utica Shale, according to the study, published today (Jan. 5) in the Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America.

No earthquakes were ever recorded in this region of Ohio before fracking started, and the shaking stopped after the well was shut down, said lead study author Robert Skoumal, a graduate student in seismology at Miami University in Ohio. Skoumal and other Miami University researchers identified 77 earthquakes with magnitudes ranging from 1 to 3 that occurred from March 4 to 12. [Top 10 Ways to Destroy Earth]

"The company happened to be unlucky because they were hydraulic fracturing near an unknown fault," Skoumal said.

The largest earthquake rattled nerves in eastern Ohio but did not cause any damage. "It could be felt, but this is a very small event," Skoumal said. "It did not pose any risk."

It's rare for fracking to cause earthquakes that people can feel. This is the fifth reported case tying fracking to felt earthquakes, and the second instance in Ohio. Fracking typically causes tiny tremors that are too small to be felt by people, usually smaller than about magnitude 1.

Fracking Led to Ohio Earthquakes (http://www.livescience.com/49326-fracking-caused-ohio-earthquakes.html)

All these other states and countries are aggressively pushing back against frac(k)ing BECAUSE of what is happening here in Oklahoma. Really consider how this all has been handled.

-Over 5000 earthquakes last year, met with denial

-Billions of gallons of toxic water injected, met with denial

-Public calling on State and Industry for help, met with denial

-Outside geologist, scientist and universities conducting research and making it available to the public, met with denial

-State begrudgingly creates a committee to study a well-documented problem, closed to public and the only real thing they have done so far is ---issue more denial. (until recently)

-Two old ladies go to devon tower and hold a banner in the lobby to protest fracking, glitter falls off the banner she is holding ---- she is charged with Bio- Terrorism, yes seriously.

So once again, really consider how this has been handled and then ask yourself again on if it's so odd that people don’t want this type of activity in their communities. The appalling lack of ethics or honor is mind numbing.

A hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, well in Ohio triggered scores of small earthquakes in March 2014, including one large enough to be felt in nearby towns, a new study confirms. The biggest quake, a magnitude 3, was one of the largest ever caused by fracking. State officials shut down the well two days after the earthquake hit.

Fracking involves the high-pressure injection of water, sand and chemicals into rock to break it up and release trapped oil and gas. In Ohio, fracking triggered earthquakes on a hidden fault in ancient crystalline rock beneath a natural gas well in the Utica Shale, according to the study, published today (Jan. 5) in the Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America.

No earthquakes were ever recorded in this region of Ohio before fracking started, and the shaking stopped after the well was shut down, said lead study author Robert Skoumal, a graduate student in seismology at Miami University in Ohio. Skoumal and other Miami University researchers identified 77 earthquakes with magnitudes ranging from 1 to 3 that occurred from March 4 to 12. [Top 10 Ways to Destroy Earth]

"The company happened to be unlucky because they were hydraulic fracturing near an unknown fault," Skoumal said.

The largest earthquake rattled nerves in eastern Ohio but did not cause any damage. "It could be felt, but this is a very small event," Skoumal said. "It did not pose any risk."

It's rare for fracking to cause earthquakes that people can feel. This is the fifth reported case tying fracking to felt earthquakes, and the second instance in Ohio. Fracking typically causes tiny tremors that are too small to be felt by people, usually smaller than about magnitude 1.

Fracking Led to Ohio Earthquakes (http://www.livescience.com/49326-fracking-caused-ohio-earthquakes.html)

I like how you didn't hold the part where I said, "as far as I know." I haven't read anything about these wells, but do you have better sources, I.e. papers published in scientific journals? Not doubting these claims, but just curious to read more details.

Most of these horizontal are drilled in areas where faulting is not present. It is too costly to drill out of zone when drilling across these faults as the rock is offset and broken. If there was an unidentified fault below the well, it isn't all that surprising that they fracked into the fault and perturbed the stresses around it. All that being said, 5 wells out of the many thousands drilled isn't all that bad, and the magnitude was fairly small so the impact was minimal.

I like how you didn't hold the part where I said, "as far as I know." I haven't read anything about these wells, but do you have better sources, I.e. papers published in scientific journals? Not doubting these claims, but just curious to read more details.

Most of these horizontal are drilled in areas where faulting is not present. It is too costly to drill out of zone when drilling across these faults as the rock is offset and broken. If there was an unidentified fault below the well, it isn't all that surprising that they fracked into the fault and perturbed the stresses around it. All that being said, 5 wells out of the many thousands drilled isn't all that bad, and the magnitude was fairly small so the impact was minimal.

Progress will be when industry types admit they don't know.

Which I don't think anyone here has ever said "no," they just haven't admitted "absolutely yes" which is what posters here won't stop until they have.

If nothing else the last several pages prove this in not a right-wing vs left-wing issue because myself and ylouder/theTravellers/mkjeeves/zookeeper are not on the same side of the aisle. Heck, we might not even be in the same room. This is clearly an industry insider/investor/employee vs. everyone else issue.

Could this thread be limited to news & discussion regarding Sandridge specifically? So much uneducated speculation on the last few pages only tangentially related to Sandridge.

I.e. papers published in scientific journals?

The googler tells me press release about the paper and what scientific journal here: http://www.seismosoc.org/society/press_releases/BSSA_105-1_Skoumal_et_al_Press_Release.pdf

Purchase a copy here apparently: SSA - Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America (BSSA) (http://www.seismosoc.org/publications/bssa/)

The googler tells me press release about the paper and what scientific journal here: http://www.seismosoc.org/society/press_releases/BSSA_105-1_Skoumal_et_al_Press_Release.pdf

Purchase a copy here apparently: SSA - Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America (BSSA) (http://www.seismosoc.org/publications/bssa/)

Thanks! I was in meetings all day and didn't have time to look them up...yet I had time to respond to something else in here. Priorities!

The googler tells me press release about the paper and what scientific journal here: http://www.seismosoc.org/society/press_releases/BSSA_105-1_Skoumal_et_al_Press_Release.pdf

Purchase a copy here apparently: SSA - Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America (BSSA) (http://www.seismosoc.org/publications/bssa/)

Interesting read. I didn't buy the article, but I checked out the other link. What is interesting is that the earthquakes induced from the fracturing operations were relatively short lived. That makes a lot of sense as frac'ing doesn't pump as much fluid into the ground, so it won't be able to contact as much of the fault.

It is also interesting because it mentions the Earthscope project. Quite simply, they are marching a very large array of seismometers across the US. (I got to help install one of the permanent instruments here in Oklahoma.) The high-density grid of instruments can record smaller events that the previous instruments couldn't detect. It is only natural that you are going to detect more events than ever recording before. It is unfortunately coincidental with an increase in oil field activity, so we don't have a good baseline model for the greater continental USA. That makes it so difficult to determine what is oil field related and what is natural. It is a very cool science project nonetheless.

Earthscope (http://www.earthscope.org/)

Obviously in this case, they found a strong correlation with the well activities and I have no argument with their findings. It is very intersting, but not surprising if the well drilled through a basement fault.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.