Police: Metro pastor fatally shoots alleged home intruder | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/police-metro-pastor-fatally-shoots-alleged-home-intruder/30361252)

Controversial OKC Pastor Identified As Man Who Shot And Killed B - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/27690197/controversial-okc-pastor-identified-as-man-who-shot-and-killed-believed-intruder)

Oh this will be fun with this crowd. Three things at play (right to protect personal property with arms, a loathed tea partier, and the victim was black).

It's not that he's a Tea Party advocate, he and his church have been in the news for some pretty wacko views, such as providing firearm training to kids.

News 9 isn't helping paint him in a better light either by interviewing Miles Hall, "friend and founder of H&H Gun Range".

Here are some nuggets Pastor Vineyard shared in 2011 in front of the City Council:

“Homosexuals account for half of the murders in large cities.”
“50 to 60 percent of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites.”
“Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases in North America, 70 to 80 percent in San Francisco.”
“Homosexuals commit more than 33 percent of all the reported child molestations in the US. Many homosexuals openly admit they are pedophiles because they cannot naturally reproduce. They resort to recruiting children.”

Okla. church makes nat?l hate group list | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2013/05/17/okla-church-makes-natl-hate-group-list/)

News 9 isn't helping paint him in a better light either by interviewing Miles Hall, "friend and founder of H&H Gun Range".

Saying "He's a good, kind, and decent man". If anti-gay discrimination and having your church be on a national hate-group list makes you a good, kind, and decent man... Must be using that Bizarro-land dictionary.

It's sad that a church make the list as a hate group.

It's sad that a church make the list as a hate group.

It's not that hard. The SPLC is often more concerned with limiting free speech and expression than they are with protecting anyone's rights or fighting hate groups.

It's not that hard. The SPLC is often more concerned with limiting free speech and expression than they are with protecting anyone's rights or fighting hate groups.

I disagree with this. There are many anti-gay groups that aren't on the SPLC's list. Churches that qualify are those that advocate violence against homosexuals (such as Westboro or Faithful Word Baptist in Arizona) or those that spread proven lies about them in the political sphere. The second is where Windsor Hills Baptist Church falls. There is a reason, for instance, that Tony Perkins' Family Research Council is a hate group but James Dobson's group isn't. Both are just as anti-gay, but Perkins' group continues to demonize the gay community in the political arena using claims that have been proven false.

All of that said, there are certain groups in Oklahoma that I think are more deserving to be on the SPLC hate group list than Windsor Hills Baptist Church that aren't. Groups like Reclaiming America for Christ come to mind.

I disagree with this. There are many anti-gay groups that aren't on the SPLC's list. Churches that qualify are those that advocate violence against homosexuals (such as Westboro or Faithful Word Baptist in Arizona) or those that spread proven lies about them in the political sphere. The second is where Windsor Hills Baptist Church falls. There is a reason, for instance, that Tony Perkins' Family Research Council is a hate group but James Dobson's group isn't. Both are just as anti-gay, but Perkins' group continues to demonize the gay community in the political arena using claims that have been proven false.

All of that said, there are certain groups in Oklahoma that I think are more deserving to be on the SPLC hate group list than Windsor Hills Baptist Church that aren't. Groups like Reclaiming America for Christ come to mind.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The bar is too low and arbitrary (as your examples point out) to add groups to the listing for my liking. In addition, they spend plenty of time on things like trying to get Apple and Amazon not to sell certain music and videos and such through their services. Even if I don't agree with the messages of certain music, I have a real hard time with the oppression of the free artistic expression.

It's not that hard. The SPLC is often more concerned with limiting free speech and expression than they are with protecting anyone's rights or fighting hate groups.

I don't see SPLC doing anything to limit free speech, I just see them identifying hate groups.

I don't see SPLC doing anything to limit free speech, I just see them identifying hate groups.

I covered that in my last post.

I covered that in my last post.

I found this but wasn't that Apples choice after a SPLC report showed hate speech? I don't see that as oppression of the free artistic expression. They didn't ask them to stop selling that music, not to mention that music was a violating Apple’s terms of use.

On the heels of an SPLC investigation that found songs by dozens of white power rock bands being sold on iTunes, Apple has begun removing hate music from its service, though other sites offering hate music, such as Amazon, have been slow to act.

“Apple is doing the right thing by preventing iTunes from being used as a recruitment tool for white supremacists,” said Heidi Beirich, director of the SPLC’s Intelligence Project. “Amazon and other online retailers that continue to sell this music need to realize that they are providing a powerful platform for extremists to reach young people with messages that advocate hate and violence against African Americans, Jews and others.”

It was under pretty heavy pressure by the SPLC. Don't think Apple just suddenly made the choice.

Apple Pulls White-Power Music From iTunes | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/apple-pulls-white-power-music-from-itunes-20141212)

They're continuing to pressure Amazon and other services to remove music they find objectionable. And this is nothing new to them.

It was under pretty heavy pressure by the SPLC. Don't think Apple just suddenly made the choice.

Apple Pulls White-Power Music From iTunes | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/apple-pulls-white-power-music-from-itunes-20141212)

They're continuing to pressure Amazon and other services to remove music they find objectionable. And this is nothing new to them.

That was still Apple's choice and Amazon " continues to offer hate music from bands such as Skrewdriver, Max Resist and Brutal Attack, whose album “White Pride White Passion” is available for download. Skrewdriver’s “White Rider,” which features a mounted Klansman in full regalia on its cover, is also available. In the comment section, white nationalists enthusiastically praise the album and the fact that it is available on Amazon." and "Spotify has said it uses a list produced by Germany’s Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons to identify artists and music that should be removed. Content can also be flagged by users or others for Spotify to review. But as of today, Spotify has not removed any songs from a list of hate music provided by the SPLC."

So it still seems it was Apple's choice and other online music industries decided to continue.

Ok, so when people were pressuring stations not to play the Dixie Chicks, you had no problems with that? Because I guess it was the same "choice" the stations had to pull them. This report by the SPLC has one intent, and one intent only.

Either way, since when does identifying songs and putting out lists like this fall under just "identifying hate groups"? Obviously, they don't "just" do that.

Heck, Windsor Hills is included, from what I can tell, not for anything they have done as an organization, or any publication, or any ongoing history of behavior, but because the statements of one person, at one meeting. Wrongheaded as they were. No one can tell me their inclusion on the list was due to some true belief in the church as a whole as a hate group, but as a punishment/deterrence for the statements of one person.

Ok, so when people were pressuring stations not to play the Dixie Chicks, you had no problems with that? Because I guess it was the same "choice" the stations had to pull them. This report by the SPLC has one intent, and one intent only.

Either way, since when does identifying songs and putting out lists like this fall under just "identifying hate groups"? Obviously, they don't "just" do that.

No I didn't because that was still the stations choice and if I remember it was the stations listeners who were doing that and not a place like the SPLC. The intent was to point out hate and White Supremacy music was being sold through there business, it was still the business's decision to stop it or not. Amazon and Spotfly decided not to and they are still doing well. It was against Apple's term of service to sell that kind of music so they stopped.

I guess I overlooked the fact that the intruder was 14 also.

The intent was to point out hate and White Supremacy music was being sold through there business, it was still the business's decision to stop it or not.

I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

I found this a little odd....

"No one from his congregation would talk about the incident, saying they were told by Vineyard to remain silent."

He's already been cleared of any wrong-doing:

Oklahoma City pastor cleared in fatal shooting of 14-year-old boy | News OK (http://newsok.com/pastor-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-14-year-old-boy/article/5378638)

I found this a little odd....

"No one from his congregation would talk about the incident, saying they were told by Vineyard to remain silent."

Well, I'd figure two reasons. 1) Something like this is pretty devastating to the shooter. 2) There are plenty that will try to use this to attack the church.

That was still Apple's choice and Amazon " continues to offer hate music from bands such as Skrewdriver, Max Resist and Brutal Attack, whose album “White Pride White Passion” is available for download. Skrewdriver’s “White Rider,” which features a mounted Klansman in full regalia on its cover, is also available. In the comment section, white nationalists enthusiastically praise the album and the fact that it is available on Amazon." and "Spotify has said it uses a list produced by Germany’s Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons to identify artists and music that should be removed. Content can also be flagged by users or others for Spotify to review. But as of today, Spotify has not removed any songs from a list of hate music provided by the SPLC."

So it still seems it was Apple's choice and other online music industries decided to continue.
Freedom of speech is covers hate speech. It is then up to the companies to determine what they will allow. If they allow racist music to be sold on their platforms and you are against that, you're against freedom of speech even if you are against racism.

and as one could have predicted, this thread went off topic in less than 10 posts

So here we go again, a man (disgusting man, no argument there) kills an intruder on his property, who also happens to be black. because of said disgusting man's past, conclusions are going to be drawn well before any type of investigation.

I do feel sorry for the guy, his stances on other issues aside. Absolutely no one wants to be put in the situation where you feel you have to do this, and then to live with it. On top of that, being judged on this event based on your past history. Sure, he's brought the hate on himself, but that can't interfere with due process from the justice system.

edit - this now looks out of sequence, others posted before i hit send on this

He's already been cleared of any wrong-doing:

Oklahoma City pastor cleared in fatal shooting of 14-year-old boy | News OK (http://newsok.com/pastor-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-14-year-old-boy/article/5378638)

As he should have been in this case

I do feel sorry for the guy, his stances on other issues aside. Absolutely no one wants to be put in the situation where you feel you have to do this, and then to live with it. On top of that, being judged on this event based on your past history. Sure, he's brought the hate on himself, but that can't interfere with due process from the justice system.

Agreed. I've always known two things will happen if someone breaks into my house while me and my family are there.

1) I'll probably shoot them.
2) I'll definitely hate doing so, for the rest of my life.

It does seem justified, but I'm confused about this part:

"The intruder, identified by authorities as Reese, entered the house through an air conditioning unit."

How does that work?

^

I think that means he pulled out a window a/c unit to get in.

It does seem justified, but I'm confused about this part:

"The intruder, identified by authorities as Reese, entered the house through an air conditioning unit."

How does that work?

Window unit?

OK, yeah, duh, thanks, didn't even think of that, but that's some bad editing/reporting (I know, we're all shocked, just shocked at that)...

I don't fault the homeowner, but having a child of my own of a similar age, I'm saddened that this kid felt the need to resort to this sort of behavior. I wonder what sort of parenting and home life led to this decision.

This entire subject seems to be an exercise in rhetorical questions statements and answers.
Were any fingerprints left on the alleged window air conditioning unit?
Did someone put the lad or the shooter in the frame?

In all honesty, I feel as if I must add: When I put my faith in Jesus, I got rid of all my guns.
(but I never claimed to be a pastor/preacher)

This entire subject seems to be an exercise in rhetorical questions statements and answers.
Were any fingerprints left on the alleged window air conditioning unit?
Did someone put the lad or the shooter in the frame?
I believe the shooting started after a scuffle with the young man. Although, it seems like an unfair fight with a grown man, a 14yr old can be quite a handful if they are motivated and know how to take care of themselves. It must have gotten pretty ugly.



In all honesty, I feel as if I must add: When I put my faith in Jesus, I got rid of all my guns.
(but I never claimed to be a pastor/preacher)
Ever since I put my faith in Gaston Glock, he's never let me down. :)

Oklahoma City pastor is cleared in fatal shooting of 14-year-old boy | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-pastor-is-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-14-year-old-boy/article/5378638)

Oklahoma City pastor is cleared in fatal shooting of 14-year-old boy | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-pastor-is-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-14-year-old-boy/article/5378638)

Pete already posted this yesterday.

Pete already posted this yesterday.

Oops. I missed it.

"Connecting the Dots" Ain't All It's Cracked Up to Be
Because it is a work of art. Ain't it?

A little bit like cooking.
Perhaps even resembling
A peace pipe?

While we are on the subject . . .
How about Kudos to the Veneer Designers for the Capitol Dome!
Sounds Like a Lake Hefner Drilling Deal to me . . .
Is that too Grinchy or Prophetic?
Sorry.

Grumpy Ol' Santa Clause allowed his reindeers to relieve themselves.
No Structual Damage Involved.
It all has something to do with China.
Merry Chistmas
As if that translates

Interesting thread - gave a platform for a lot of people to get their hate on.

As for me, I feel terrible for this child's Mother - this will be a sad Christmas. What a tragedy.

As for me, I feel terrible for this child's Mother - this will be a sad Christmas.

No doubt. Losing that DHS/Government assistance check 4 years early, is going to be tough for the foreseeable future.

Filthy, that's mean.

Filthy, there's no reason for that. That is someone's child. Yes, they made a horrible mistake that cost them their life, but assuming that the mother is only upset due to the possibility that she won't be able to use him for welfare assistance is below low.

A couple of days ago, I listened to some NPR coverage of yet another police shooting that took place somewhere in the vicinity of St. Louis (I think). This one featured the mayor--apparently a "person of color"--expressing his sympathies for the police officer and saying how hard it was on the officer and his family to deal with taking a life. The mayor said that the big difference in this case--and those others--was that the events were caught clearly on a SecurityCam. The "errant youngster" actually pulled a gun on the officer and the officer responded in a reasonable--if painful--manner. The radio report went on to feature an Al and Jessie Wannabe "Reverend" who took his fifteen seconds of "flame" to loudly disagree with the mayor and say: "All this is, is another police shooting of a young black man by police. This has got to stop."

Okay . . . So, maybe if a disproportionate number of "young black men" choose not to decide to place themselves in situations involving the high likelihood of the brandishing of firearms . . ? Especially when the police are involved . . ? Perhaps the prayers of The "Reverend" Whose Time Has Passed might be answered?

P.S. to Mad Monk:

Ever since I put my faith in Gaston Glock, he's never let me down.
And, after the fact, place your faith in the law firm of Remington, Smith, Wesson, Colt and Uzi.
They never miss.
Their Motto is: "Don't Get Mad . . . Get Even."

(that was just a reinforced "Like" to your quip. It was nearly perfect in the context.)

Lenny Bruce once said: Any "religious leader" who owns more than two suits is a hustler.
Radical Moderate sez: Any "religious leader" who owns more than one handgun has more than one handgun too many.

And The L-rd Said [paraphrased]: This thread is treading perilously close to the thin ice of being "Political" (not to mention "religious") and probably needs to be vanquished and/or exiled to The Desert--down around where those guys are scrolling them Dead Sea Scrolls--in order to be re-educated.

Especially right after Christmas and on the Cusp of a New Year.
Fleas/Feliz/Flees Navidad y . . . All the Best, Always.
(To Penny: Quilt THAT. or don't . . . =)

RM it was the local mayor who made the statement" "All this is, is another police shooting of a young black man by police. This has got to stop."
The politics of these shootings is that those community leaders and our national leaders are at best, only making ambiguous statements when they get on camera. (Never let a crisis go to waste) God help America.

RM it was the local mayor who made the statement" "All this is, is another police shooting of a young black man by police. This has got to stop."
The politics of these shootings is that those community leaders and our national leaders are at best, only making ambiguous statements when they get on camera. (Never let a crisis go to waste) God help America.

I agree with the last three words, above. (yet I didn't think I misheard the "news item" to the extent indicated).
Police Kill Young Man In Missouri; 'It's Not What People Portray,' Mayor Says : The Two-Way : NPR (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/24/372867144/police-kill-young-man-in-st-louis-area-sparking-new-anger)