View Full Version : $22 Million Nichols Hills Bond Issue



Plutonic Panda
12-08-2014, 12:56 AM
Mainly going to street improvements


Here's the breakdown:

$7.4 million to road improvements
$5.2 million to improve the city's water system that will include the installation of new water wells and water lines.
More than $1.3 million for sewage and drainage system improvements.
$3 million to upgrade parks.
$635,000 for traffic control equipment and improvements. And if the bond is passed, the city's town hall will get a $3-million face lift.

- Millions Wanted In Bond Money For Nichols Hills Improvements - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/27562143/millions-wanted-in-bond-money-nichols-hills-improvements)

Just the facts
12-08-2014, 07:38 AM
It kind of makes you wonder at what point people are going to grow weary of going into debt paying for the same stuff year after year.

bradh
12-08-2014, 08:44 AM
It kind of makes you wonder at what point people are going to grow weary of going into debt paying for the same stuff year after year.

When their infrastructure stops falling apart?

Rover
12-08-2014, 10:29 PM
When will people quit buying houses on credit? Everyone should live in apartments until they have the cash to buy a house. JTF probably did this...paid cash for his house in the suburbs, I would guess.

Just the facts
12-09-2014, 06:21 AM
I wish! Alas, I made the exact same mistake million and millions of people before me made.

Anyhow, back to this subject. Why doesn't Nichols Hills raise their property taxes high enough so they can collect the maintenance money up front and not borrow it? My homeowners association does this. We own the streets in our subdivision and a portion of our quarterly dues is set aside for future road maintenance so when that time comes we have the money and we don't have to pay the interest.

As I posted elseware - the same people who moan and groan about the federal debt seem to have no problem with local debt. It is just odd.

Rover
12-09-2014, 07:25 AM
There is good debt and there is bad debt. Dogmatic zealots often can't tell the difference. Proper scale of debt also escapes them. That's why tea partiers tend to take a simple right idea and extrapolate it out without good judgement making it just as absurd as those who ignore the dangers.

Pete
12-09-2014, 07:40 AM
Remember, the City of NH gets almost all their revenue from sales tax and since Chesapeake chased out Crescent Market and the NH Drug Store, they have been severely compromised.

As it is, almost the entire south half of NH Plaza is vacant now and has been for several years.

Just the facts
12-09-2014, 07:40 AM
So let me ask you Rover - debt for street repairs that will need to be repaired again before the original debt is paid off; good debt or bad debt? When you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume. Nichols Hills, and many other places, are soon going to have to ask themselves - can we afford to keep living like this? The answer is increasingly becoming - No.

NH has 5,000 people living in 2 sq miles and they can't even raise enough money to maintain their infrastructure so they have to borrow against future taxes. That is not a recipe for longevity.

bombermwc
12-09-2014, 08:02 AM
Yeah I would say they are doomed to be absorbed into OKC at some point. Hall Park is a good comparison, and look what happened there. Lake Aluma too. These little micro-cities with their uber codes to keep the stuff-shirted old-school money can't live. The old-schoolers are passing away, and the young folks aren't going to filling in the places just to say they live in NH. We're seeing those people move downtown instead. With such little commercial base, there's not much to do. They're going to eventually be priced out of existence....unless they make it all up with property tax. And since there are laws on how that can be raised, it would take quite a while to get it up there to make up for it. Not to mention eventually the people will stop buying because of that, or move. Hell, you might see a few burn down rather than try and sell. It's fraud, but it'll happen. NH simply isn't the "awe-inspiring" place to be these days, rather it's a symbol of old people with money that really did a pretty good job of screwing things up.

AP
12-09-2014, 08:38 AM
I've always wondered how okc annexes all of this land on the fringe of the city but doesn't annex places like Nichols Hills and the like? Why is that?

Jersey Boss
12-09-2014, 09:35 AM
I've always wondered how okc annexes all of this land on the fringe of the city but doesn't annex places like Nichols Hills and the like? Why is that?

My guess would be that the populace is not for it. I don't think a city can just annex an area contrary to the wishes of the folks who call it home. Those on the fringe support it as it brings city services to them. Hall Park was for it due to water and the costs of infrastructure repair. What does OKC offer that NH would want?

Just the facts
12-09-2014, 10:12 AM
Yeah I would say they are doomed to be absorbed into OKC at some point. Hall Park is a good comparison, and look what happened there. Lake Aluma too. These little micro-cities with their uber codes to keep the stuff-shirted old-school money can't live. The old-schoolers are passing away, and the young folks aren't going to filling in the places just to say they live in NH. We're seeing those people move downtown instead. With such little commercial base, there's not much to do. They're going to eventually be priced out of existence....unless they make it all up with property tax. And since there are laws on how that can be raised, it would take quite a while to get it up there to make up for it. Not to mention eventually the people will stop buying because of that, or move. Hell, you might see a few burn down rather than try and sell. It's fraud, but it'll happen. NH simply isn't the "awe-inspiring" place to be these days, rather it's a symbol of old people with money that really did a pretty good job of screwing things up.

If NH can't raise enough tax revenue to maintain the infrastrucutre the population demands why on earth would OKC want to take on the additional liability?

bradh
12-09-2014, 01:39 PM
So let me ask you Rover - debt for street repairs that will need to be repaired again before the original debt is paid off; good debt or bad debt? When you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume. Nichols Hills, and many other places, are soon going to have to ask themselves - can we afford to keep living like this? The answer is increasingly becoming - No.

NH has 5,000 people living in 2 sq miles and they can't even raise enough money to maintain their infrastructure so they have to borrow against future taxes. That is not a recipe for longevity.

I get why you're making the argument about the roads, because that's your thing, but what about the 6.5 million for water & sewer? Those are infrastructure items that have to be provided for basic living and sanitation. I know in every urbanists' perfect world you'd have toilets that made your turds disappear and a water system that treats your pee to drinkability, all brought to your home by magic pipes made from recycled materials that last forever, but that doesn't exist.

I'd vote for tax increases for these things, but it's not always popular. And as far as good debt and bad debt, I have absolutely zero faith that the federal government will every be responsible taking on debt, but higher taxes and some manageable debt at the municipal I'm typically fine with, since I can see the results better than I can with federal spending.

bradh
12-09-2014, 01:40 PM
Yeah I would say they are doomed to be absorbed into OKC at some point. Hall Park is a good comparison, and look what happened there. Lake Aluma too. These little micro-cities with their uber codes to keep the stuff-shirted old-school money can't live. The old-schoolers are passing away, and the young folks aren't going to filling in the places just to say they live in NH. We're seeing those people move downtown instead. With such little commercial base, there's not much to do. They're going to eventually be priced out of existence....unless they make it all up with property tax. And since there are laws on how that can be raised, it would take quite a while to get it up there to make up for it. Not to mention eventually the people will stop buying because of that, or move. Hell, you might see a few burn down rather than try and sell. It's fraud, but it'll happen. NH simply isn't the "awe-inspiring" place to be these days, rather it's a symbol of old people with money that really did a pretty good job of screwing things up.

You sure about that Clark? Drive through NH someday, while it's got it's share of bluehairs, I see lots of young active families using the jogging trails, playing in the parks, etc.

hoya
12-09-2014, 01:52 PM
I think Nichols Hills just makes a great example for JTF because it's a very wealthy area that apparently can't afford to maintain its own infrastructure.

There will be times when a municipality needs to take out a loan to pay for something. You could have a water treatment plant break unexpectedly, or a bunch of pipes burst before their time. The issue is you shouldn't have to take out loans to make normal regular repairs and maintenance. Your existing taxes should be enough to pay for the expenses you know you're going to have.

sooner88
12-09-2014, 01:56 PM
Yeah I would say they are doomed to be absorbed into OKC at some point. Hall Park is a good comparison, and look what happened there. Lake Aluma too. These little micro-cities with their uber codes to keep the stuff-shirted old-school money can't live. The old-schoolers are passing away, and the young folks aren't going to filling in the places just to say they live in NH. We're seeing those people move downtown instead. With such little commercial base, there's not much to do. They're going to eventually be priced out of existence....unless they make it all up with property tax. And since there are laws on how that can be raised, it would take quite a while to get it up there to make up for it. Not to mention eventually the people will stop buying because of that, or move. Hell, you might see a few burn down rather than try and sell. It's fraud, but it'll happen. NH simply isn't the "awe-inspiring" place to be these days, rather it's a symbol of old people with money that really did a pretty good job of screwing things up.

While there are plenty of people moving downtown, they are in the minority. Those young professionals, families, etc. that are looking for the more traditional house / yard and want to stay in OKC will still look in Nichols Hills, Belle Isle, Crown Heights, HH, EH, Village. Don't think NH has dropped off by any means, and once the Glimcher project gets going that will bring some much needed sales tax revenue from the Plaza hopefully decreasing the need for these bond issues going forward.

Plutonic Panda
12-09-2014, 05:35 PM
I think Nichols Hills just makes a great example for JTF because it's a very wealthy area that apparently can't afford to maintain its own infrastructure.

There will be times when a municipality needs to take out a loan to pay for something. You could have a water treatment plant break unexpectedly, or a bunch of pipes burst before their time. The issue is you shouldn't have to take out loans to make normal regular repairs and maintenance. Your existing taxes should be enough to pay for the expenses you know you're going to have.They could very easily afford to maintain their own infrastructure, but they choose not to.

I have no problem with this bond.

First off, I don't know the combined income of the area, but I'm willing to guess that the $22 million doesn't even put a dent in it. Secondly, where are they getting their taxes? From police that literally pull people over for going 1 MPH over the limit? My uncle was pulled over and cited for doing 22 in a 20. I'm not instantly going to blame the police here. I've heard many different instances of that happening.

What they need to do is devise a plan for new retail developments in the city. This might sound bad, but I'd recommend the city annexing several acres or so of the 'poorer' areas surrounding Nichols Hills and buying those people out of their homes, bull-dozing them, and zoning for new retail there. I also think when Glimcher gets their stuff together, a Trader Joe's and a number of other stores in the Nichols Hills Plaza would do wonders for the area. Assuming Tulsa doesn't get one first or at all, I know people who live in Tulsa that stated they would drive to OKC a couple times a month for a Trader Joe's and I think a Trader Joe's would be an absolute slam dunk if built here. The number of people would be incredible and would likely require police overlook for a little bit.

Also, Nichol's Hills's parks are great and I almost always see people out using them. I'm also very amused that people claim to know what Millennials are going to do and will find it very funny if they do end up in the burbs which I wouldn't doubt will happen. Another thing is I'm am sure a bunch of cities in Europe incur debt to build roads and such. The ones that don't probably have a sh!t credit rating.

If anything, I'm shocked JTF is against this, or whatever he's trying to say, because Nichol's Hills is a fairly dense area and close to the core. Their neighborhoods also lack cul-de-sacs which I know he hates and 99% of their streets are two way and have sidewalks, usually with people on them.

Raise taxes on various items a little bit, increase retail, and get support and donations for the community for various projects and they'll be fine.

Plutonic Panda
12-09-2014, 05:39 PM
My guess would be that the populace is not for it. I don't think a city can just annex an area contrary to the wishes of the folks who call it home. Those on the fringe support it as it brings city services to them. Hall Park was for it due to water and the costs of infrastructure repair. What does OKC offer that NH would want?Do you know of anyone who lives in Nichols Hills and never goes into OKC? My answer to your question would be: a lot.

Rover
12-09-2014, 10:10 PM
So let me ask you Rover - debt for street repairs that will need to be repaired again before the original debt is paid off; good debt or bad debt? When you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume. Nichols Hills, and many other places, are soon going to have to ask themselves - can we afford to keep living like this? The answer is increasingly becoming - No.

NH has 5,000 people living in 2 sq miles and they can't even raise enough money to maintain their infrastructure so they have to borrow against future taxes. That is not a recipe for longevity.

Keep betting that NH goes broke. That fits your narrative. Not reality, but if you say it three times and click your heels. Lol. I have no doubt you are really perplexed at the skyrocketing values in NH. All those stupid people there. Don't know they are doomed. They actually think it's a nice place to live.