I don't see this getting better without some major changes, other than wanting to teach Creationism.


A new survey conducted by the Oklahoma State School Boards Association during the first two weeks in August found public schools were still grappling with more than 800 teaching vacancies for the 2014-15 academic year.

Districts representing nearly three-fourths of the state’s public school enrollment completed the survey, which illustrates the toll of a statewide shortage that has worsened significantly the last couple of years.

“Local school officials have been saying for awhile that finding qualified teachers is difficult,” said Shawn Hime, executive director of OSSBA. “This survey put actual numbers to the problem — and the results should concern every parent and policymaker in the state.

“Having a highly qualified teacher in every classroom is the most effective strategy for academic improvement, but as a state, that’s not where we’ve chosen to invest our time, energy or resources. It’s short-sighted because it limits the effectiveness of any other plan Oklahoma puts in place.”

The Tulsa World reported July 30 that Tulsa Public Schools alone had 100 vacancies on the books. As of Monday, that number had been whittled down to 70, according to Chris Payne, a TPS spokesman.

Other findings from the OSSBA survey include:

• More than half of districts with vacancies said they have sought emergency certification for teachers who aren’t fully qualified to teach the subject and/or grade level for which they were hired.

• About half of the districts also said they will use long- or short-term substitute teachers to fill vacancies.

• Many districts that reported no vacancies said they have hired short- and long-term substitutes in place of full-time teachers.

• The shortage is hitting districts of all sizes in every area of the state.

• Special education is the most difficult teaching area to fill, followed by elementary education, high school science and high school math.

• A handful of districts offer incentives to improve teacher recruitment and retention, but most districts do not, citing financial constraints.

• Not only are local school officials deeply concerned about the scarcity of applicants, but also they are worried about the quality of educators who do apply.

OSSBA also said that public schools are also on track to get more emergency teaching certificates approved by the state board of education in the first two months of the fiscal year than they did all last year. Hiring teachers who have not completed all of their education requirements is another signal of the dire straits in which school districts are finding themselves.

Patti Ferguson-Palmer, president of the Tulsa Classroom Teachers Association, said having so many vacancies creates a burden for teachers who are already on the job.

“Everybody is scared to death of class sizes,” she said. “I don’t know where they’re going to get enough long-term subs.”

Ferguson-Palmer said she even warned against some of the forced exits of TPS teachers she said were rated “needs improvement” not the lower “ineffective” on evaluations last year.

“They cut their own throats. Set the bar high, but these were people who just needed a little more support and professional development,” she said. “We did a climate survey of members in May that asked, ‘Do you feel valued by the school district?’ and the response overwhelmingly was ‘No.’ ”

Talia Shaull, chief human capital officer at TPS, said the school district is “diligently working” to fill the vacancies and to ensure they have sufficient substitutes to cover on the first day of school, which is Wednesday.

She said applicants for special-education classes are the most scarce. Currently, the district has 18 such vacancies.

Shaull also said the exit of about 350 teachers the last couple of years is average for a district of Tulsa’s size, as is the 60-65 terminated or coached resignations and retirements for performance reasons in 2013-14.

“For some, performance is the reason, but for many others, the reason they leave is to go to surrounding districts. Moving forward, we have to work on retention. We can’t talk about recruitment without also talking about retention,” Shaull said. “How do we improve working conditions and support for teachers, as well as helping them create a career path for themselves so they want to stay in TPS?”

Union Public Schools will begin classes Wednesday with 21 unfilled, certified positions.

“For some of these subject/grade areas, we have multiple openings,” said Cynthia Solomon, senior executive director of human resources at Union.

Broken Arrow has seven vacant teaching positions and classes begin there on Thursday.

District officials said their overall number of applicants hasn’t decreased because BA is a popular suburban district, but they have had particular difficulty filling special-education and science positions.

“Science teachers need different certification exams in almost every content area, so it’s a little bit more difficult to find that teacher who can teach almost anything in science. It’s the same problem in special ed. There are special-ed applicants out there, but special ed is so specialized that it is that more difficult to find a teacher with the particular qualifications you need,” Assistant Superintendent Janet Dunlop said.

Collinsville Superintendent Lance West said his district is awaiting emergency certification for one special education teacher.

And Spanish students at the high school there are having to either take an online course or earn their foreign language credits concurrently with coursework at Tulsa Community College because the district was unable to find a Spanish teacher.

“This year has been by far the worst,” West said. “I’ve noticed other districts offering incentives but we just can’t afford that. I would give anything to be able to do that.”

Liberty Superintendent Donna Campo said her small, south Tulsa County district had to offer chemistry through an online course because it couldn’t find an upper-level science teacher.

In Skiatook, Superintendent Rick Thomas said the high school and middle school have had to get creative to address each of their vacancies.

“We have moved some of our staff around at the high school and have hired a long-term sub to cover another position to try to get a certified person in the math class,” Thomas said. “At the middle school we are hoping to hire a retired teacher on a temporary contract (for a vacant language arts position).”

Jenks Public Schools hired eight qualified candidates as substitutes because they are still waiting for the Oklahoma State Department of Education to issue teaching certificates for them.

“Saying that, the number of applicants we have received has decreased in all areas, making positions more difficult to fill,” said Bonnie Rogers, chief information officer at Jenks.

Sand Springs Superintendent Lloyd Snow said his district was down to the wire trying to fill 54 new teachers – about 15 more than usual because of an uptick in retirements and resignations.

“We filled our last certified teaching position yesterday. We start school tomorrow with a full teaching staff,” Snow said. “The pool of people is smaller than ever before and we spent more time actively recruiting applicants.”


Teacher shortage: Oklahoma schools begin academic year with more than 800 vacancies - Tulsa World: Education (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/education/teacher-shortage-oklahoma-schools-begin-academic-year-with-more-than/article_2b610da7-d1da-5704-8e6c-4958464fd07d.html)

That's a scary story. It's Our future that will be hurt by this. Every kid deserves a chance for a least a basic education.

If the teachers and their unions would stop their endless complaining about how it's tough to make a living in that profession, and instead talk about how you can find a job immediately out of college, get great benefits, lead-pipe job security and tons of vacation time and actually do pretty well if you stick with it, only then will this change.

I know teachers should be paid more but when I was coming up through school, all my teachers did was discourage us from considering teaching; especially men. Knowing what I now know, I think I would have contemplated teaching and I'm sure many feel the same.

Also, if the unions would allow GOOD teachers to be paid substantially more than lousy ones, pay levels would become much more equitable.

The bottom line is that teachers and unions gain power by discouraging young people to teach, and too often their propaganda campaign has this consequence; even if it's at least partially unintentional.


And before people raise the point about Oklahoma being particularly bad about paying educators, keep in mind there is a teaching shortage virtually everywhere in the U.S.

If the teachers and their unions would stop their endless complaining about how it's tough to make a living in that profession, and instead talk about how you can find a job immediately out of college, get great benefits, lead-pipe job security and tons of vacation time and actually do pretty well if you stick with it, only then will this change.

I know teachers should be paid more but when I was coming up through school, all my teachers did was discourage us from considering teaching; especially men. Knowing what I now know, I think I would have contemplated teaching and I'm sure many feel the same.

Also, if the unions would allow GOOD teachers to be paid substantially more than lousy ones, pay levels would become much more equitable.

The bottom line is that teachers and unions gain power by discouraging young people to teach, and too often their propaganda campaign has this consequence; even if it's at least partially unintentional.


And before people raise the point about Oklahoma being particularly bad about paying educators, keep in mind there is a teaching shortage virtually everywhere in the U.S.

Huh? A teacher shortage in Oklahoma is somehow the unions fault? Not because they can go to any other state and make more? Not because it is a thankless job that the folks at the capitol dont seem too concerned about being last in funding? Man, the teacher unions get blamed for everything.

This is really sad and frightening really. Less teachers mean larger class sizes. Regardless of methods or curriculum, large class sizes are one guarantee of poor results.

Pete, so how many "right to work' states are there? Would you agree that in right to work states, unions have little or no power? How effective are teachers unions in Oklahoma? Have there been any strikes called here? What other professions are the employees expected to contribute their earnings to make up the shortfall of the employer? I really find your reply to be simplistic.

^

If it's just a matter of going to other states to make more, why are all the surrounding states experiencing a shortage as well?

Why is there a *nationwide* problem?

Also, Oklahoma is near the bottom in cost of living; salaries are only part of the equation.


I do believe that most teachers deserve to be paid more. But I stand by my point that the unions and the teachers themselves do more to discourage new teachers than anything else.

It's not the only reason, but it's a big one.

^ So in standing by your point, what is the % of teachers in Oklahoma carrying a union card? To lay any blame on unions in states that are right to work is disingenuous.

I shouldn't just identify the unions, but all the various education associations and groups that are constantly putting out negative information; about how underpaid and put-upon teachers are.

Just read the article in the original post.

Pete, so how many "right to work' states are there? Would you agree that in right to work states, unions have little or no power? How effective are teachers unions in Oklahoma? Have there been any strikes called here? What other professions are the employees expected to contribute their earnings to make up the shortfall of the employer? I really find your reply to be simplistic.

In Oklahoma, school district boards of education are required by law to negotiate/collectively bargain with teachers' and support employees' unions at the request of either the unions or the board of education:

OSCN Found Document:Meetings With Representatives - Good Faith Negotiations (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?lookup=Next&listorder=146800&dbCode=STOKST70&year=)

As for strikes, they are against the law:

OSCN Found Document:Procedure as Exclusive Recourse of Organization (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=90980)

^

If it's just a matter of going to other states to make more, why are all the surrounding states experiencing a shortage as well?

Why is there a *nationwide* problem?

Also, Oklahoma is near the bottom in cost of living; salaries are only part of the equation.


I do believe that most teachers deserve to be paid more. But I stand by my point that the unions and the teachers themselves do more to discourage new teachers than anything else.

It's not the only reason, but it's a big one.

I could not disagree more. Teachers get paid crappy wages in Oklahoma -- and our ridiculous governor and legislature continue to pile on requirements for how they are supposed to teach. Morale is in the toilet in Oklahoma -- I have three educators in my family and they say this is by far the worst time ever to be a teacher in this state. And the reason morale is bad is not because of teacher's unions. Get real.

My daughter's new art teacher is forced to pay for their supplies out of her own pocket. One of her classes still doesn't have textbooks.

Pete, I love you, but the attitude you express here is the same attitude used by our legislators to continue to pay teachers wages that barely exceed the poverty line. They just blame the unions and continue spending money on prisons -- while offering our hydrofracturing companies outdated tax breaks. This same attitude is reflected in their abject failure to properly fund higher education.

Perversely, Boren's success at raising OU's endowment is used as an excuse to deny OU funding. "They don't need public money. Look how much they have raised."

I don't really care about Texas' education problems. I care about Oklahoma's. And funding education is clearly not a priority in this state.

One more thing: since when has the dissoluton of trade unions led to higher wages? What an absurd argument to make. On a personal note, I have a couple of teacher friends who were very anti-union and anti-teachers union. Both of them have joined one of the unions in the last two years. They have done a 180-degree switch on their positions about the teachers' unions because they realize they would be in even worse shape without their lobbying efforts.

Never, ever said they don't deserve to be paid more -- in fact, I stated exactly the opposite.

To partially illustrate Pete's point about the unions, the more active unions tend to have much more pull in a school district due to the sheer fact that the district cannot make decisions on "wages, hours, fringe benefits and other terms and conditions of employment" without running it through the union (that's the collective bargaining process). Leadership of the local unions is nearly always headed up by long-term (i.e., tenured) teachers, many of whom have taught for 20+ years. In many instances, the things they ask for "on behalf of the teachers" are things which (understandably) benefit the long-term teachers rather than the first-year or less-experienced ones.

Salary is one example. The Oklahoma State Minimum Salary Schedule goes up to 25 years and doctorate degree. It's a grid with years of experience running vertically and degree attained running horizontally. You are paid the amount in whichever box fits your number of years teaching and degree level. So, once a teacher reaches year 25 on that scale, and if the teacher has his/her doctorate, there's nowhere else to go on the scale. The teacher will continue to be paid the same amount each year thereafter (absent a global pay raise). Thus, many long-term teachers will negotiate for an additional "step" to be added to the bottom of the salary schedule (i.e., year 26 and so on), or a stipend in the same amount that a "step" would be on the scale. Rarely will you see the negotiations team proposing a step increase for a first-year teacher.

Of course, many things are negotiated that benefit *all* teachers as well, such as number of paid personal business leave days, duty-free lunch periods and the like. My point, however, is to illustrate that leadership tends to be the more tenured staff, and of course they're going to protect their own interests and that of their similarly-situated peers.

To partially illustrate Pete's point about the unions, the more active unions tend to have much more pull in a school district due to the sheer fact that the district cannot make decisions on "wages, hours, fringe benefits and other terms and conditions of employment" without running it through the union (that's the collective bargaining process). Leadership of the local unions is nearly always headed up by long-term (i.e., tenured) teachers, many of whom have taught for 20+ years. In many instances, the things they ask for "on behalf of the teachers" are things which (understandably) benefit the long-term teachers rather than the first-year or less-experienced ones.

Salary is one example. The Oklahoma State Minimum Salary Schedule goes up to 25 years and doctorate degree. It's a grid with years of experience running vertically and degree attained running horizontally. You are paid the amount in whichever box fits your number of years teaching and degree level. So, once a teacher reaches year 25 on that scale, and if the teacher has his/her doctorate, there's nowhere else to go on the scale. The teacher will continue to be paid the same amount each year thereafter (absent a global pay raise). Thus, many long-term teachers will negotiate for an additional "step" to be added to the bottom of the salary schedule (i.e., year 26 and so on), or a stipend in the same amount that a "step" would be on the scale. Rarely will you see the negotiations team proposing a step increase for a first-year teacher.

Of course, many things are negotiated that benefit *all* teachers as well, such as number of paid personal business leave days, duty-free lunch periods and the like. My point, however, is to illustrate that leadership tends to be the more tenured staff, and of course they're going to protect their own interests and that of their similarly-situated peers.

That's fine. Most of the few pay incentives teachers have had have been for incoming teachers. The pay is still woefully below what teachers deserve, however. But once a teacher "maxes out," they're lucky to even get COLAs.

Never, ever said they don't deserve to be paid more -- in fact, I stated exactly the opposite.

OK, but you're blaming their lousy pay on unions, not lawmakers. This is the same phantom argument made by OCPA and the State Chamber. Money isn't going to magically appear to pay teachers more if unions were to disappear. Money will appear when lawmakers and in particular the business community and our ruling party decide to pay them more.

Here's the thing: If you run a group or are part of one that is truly concerned about recruiting new members, wouldn't you spend a lot of time and energy promoting the benefits of making this choice instead of going on and on and on about how horrible it is to become involved??

The simple truth is there is a very compelling case to be made for teaching, well beyond just job satisfaction (which itself is most often presented in a negative light).

But when do you EVER hear about those positive career aspects? Virtually never.


If your goal as an educator is to recruit more and better teachers, these people are going about it in completely the wrong way.

And if our goal as a society is to improve this, then this issue needs to be addressed.

OK, but you're blaming their lousy pay on unions, not lawmakers. This is the same phantom argument made by OCPA and the State Chamber. Money isn't going to magically appear to pay teachers more if unions were to disappear. Money will appear when lawmakers and in particular the business community and our ruling party decide to pay them more.

No, I'm partially blaming the teacher shortage on the teachers themselves and their associations and unions. Big difference.

My parents were both career-long educators (teacher and school superintendent) and they never once—ever—suggested I go into teaching/school administration. Neither seemed dissatisfied with their jobs (heck, both stayed in the same school district for 15-20 years until retiring so they must've been pretty content), yet neither had any aspirations for their kids to follow in their footsteps.

I'm with Pete about society in general not placing more of an emphasis on our best and brightest becoming educators. We used to do that, many years ago.

What has changed? Is it because women—who once had only a handful of white-collar professions from which to choose (nursing also comes to mind)—can now get into literally *any* profession they wish if they are qualified? If so, then how do we explain the decline in male teachers?

And let's talk about our private school teachers. My understanding (and I do not know if this is entirely true) is that many, if not most, private school teachers are paid less than public school teachers. Yet they are happy. They are highly educated, many with advanced degrees. They stay in the same job for a long time. Is that because of parental support? I will say yes. Is it because the school may expel a kid who doesn't meet behavioral/curricular standards? Again I will say yes.

That being said, I often wonder if the continued stranglehold on public schools by state and federal government, coupled with a seemingly less involved and supportive, but more adversarial and litigious group of parents, is at least primarily to blame for many of our problems. If so, how can we fix that?

*****

Both my parents retired in their early-50's. They are now in their mid-70s. Every single month from when they retired, up until they die, they will each receive a nice pension from the Teachers Retirement System. There aren't many jobs out in the private sector where you can get that kind of deal.

In as much as the legislators are the ones who set pay scale, days off, medical benefits, what are they doing to promote the profession? In as much as the state is the quasi employer what are they doing to make this a desirable profession? Would mandating creationism be taught an incentive for a science teacher to work here?

I think every single person understands the legislature and government in general could do much, much more for education in Oklahoma and pretty much everywhere else in the U.S. That's well established and often discussed with great passion and even anger.

I was merely trying to make the point that most teachers and their representatives do a fair bit of harm themselves, all the while attempting to claim the high ground of doing "what's best for our kids".

I will add that although teaching, in fact, can be a great career choice for many, there is an ingrained culture among most educators that you can't promote that perspective without somehow undermining the martyrdom rhetoric of your colleagues. And that's messed up.

Several good points put forth and I think most agree teacher pay is pretty crappy, especially for somebody with a Bachelor's Degree. The following link shows the minimum wage for a teacher in OK:

http://ok.gov/sde/sites/ok.gov.sde/files/documents/files/2014-2015%20State%20Minimum%20Salary%20Schedule.pdf

A couple other interesting sites and if this is what teachers are getting being in a Union it's not helping them much.

Oklahoma Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in OK | Teacher Portal (http://www.teacherportal.com/salary/Oklahoma-teacher-salary)

http://www.nctq.org/docs/Oklahoma_Teachers_Salary_FY2014.pdf

No, I'm partially blaming the teacher shortage on the teachers themselves and their associations and unions. Big difference.

You know why there's a teacher shortage? It’s pay. It’s always the pay.

You pay your maid $20 an hour. Jimmy down the street gets $30 for spending 45 minutes mowing your yard.

A national board certified teacher in Oklahoma starts at $32,600 in Oklahoma. That's about $16 an hour.

A police officer recruit in Oklahoma City with a high school diploma starts at $42,908. That’s equivalent to a board certified teacher with 20 years experience. And the cop gets OT on top of that pay.

After graduating from the police academy police pay goes up to $48,671, which is 5% more than a board certified teacher with a PHD and 25 years experience at $46.000.

A 18 year old cop just out of high school after completing a 28 week paid training course still on probation makes more money than a teacher with 8 years of college, a published dissertation, board certification and 25 years in the classroom. Think on that.

No kid in college on student loans can afford to get out and make about the same amount of money they would for waiting tables and then pay student loans, 6 weeks off in the summer or not. College is too expensive anymore.

And the louder and louder the unions and teachers proclaim and lament on how low their pay is, the more people will stay away from the career.

It's a double edged sword, because making the noise is the only way to get the change.

I think every single person understands the legislature and government in general could do much, much more for education in Oklahoma and pretty much everywhere else in the U.S. That's well established and often discussed with great passion and even anger.

I was merely trying to make the point that most teachers and their representatives do a fair bit of harm themselves, all the while attempting to claim the high ground of doing "what's best for our kids".

I will add that although teaching, in fact, can be a great career choice for many, there is an ingrained culture among most educators that you can't promote that perspective without somehow undermining the martyrdom rhetoric of your colleagues. And that's messed up.

Teaching used to be a much better career than it is. Teachers used to be treated with much more respect. It is a dignified profession, but janitors at Devon make more. Go ahead and keep blaming that on "martydom" if you want, but all of the "just shut up and be positive" in the world hasn't helped teachers in Oklahoma. We pay our teachers among the lowest in the country. Is this due to martydom, or unions? I think not. It is because of priorities, and our elected officials don't prioritize education or teacher pay.

Meanwhile, our governor and Republican overlords have no ideas, short of the dumb voucher ideas. Will that get teachers paid? And I'm sorry, but saying "Stop being martyrs about your crappy pay" is not a plan, either.

I understand your point to a degree, but you have gone down to the absolute bottom of reasons why our teachers are not paid what they deserve to make your point.

About the only thing I think teachers unions (and really, most unions) should be criticized for is their willingness to fight to protect lousy teachers. According to family members, however, American Federation of Teachers does not do this.

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

Now, while teachers should get paid more, and they definitely should not be having to purchase supplies out of pocket, it should be noted that compared to cost of living (basically, the "comfort index" rating) Oklahoma is about 25th last time I saw. So we sit about the middle in teacher pay, nationally.

BTW, a quick Google search yielded an analysis by Indeed.com that shows the average starting salary for a recent college graduate in Oklahoma is $39K:

Recent College Graduate Salary in Oklahoma City, OK | Indeed.com (http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Recent-College-Graduate-l-Oklahoma-City,-OK.html)

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

Because the pay sucks. My family member has a masters degree, works 10 months, and receives UNDER $40k a year. She is fully bilingual and a certified teacher. She has taught in OKC, Edmond, and Norman and her pay has never been $40k. That must include some of the benefits, but teachers making more than $35k are uncommon.

The pay sucks, Pete. Facts are facts. Quik Trip starts its cashiers at $40k. There are people staring at pipes in Western Oklahoma making $100k. Paying teachers is not a priority in this nation -- but it's even worse in Oklahoma.

I just really don't understand why you think this should not be pointed out.

Do you think Millennials don't research what professions pay? They do, and they decide what to pursue based on pay. And who could blame them: our Legislature is defunding higher education so they have to pay a greater percentage of their tuition than you and I did when we attended OU. So, they have to take out student loans to pay for a degree (which at OU used to take 5 years to complete; not sure now) that is going to pay them crappy wages? Again, do you think they won't find out the pay if people just shut up about the pay?

I have clients in Western Oklahoma who tell me they can't find teachers. Why? Their feeder college, SWOSU, isn't enrolling enough. There simply aren't enough pursuing this career.

You know a great deal about commercial real estate, but I think you're not seeing the big picture here.

I'm sorry, but this is a passionate subject for me. Not only because I have family and friends who are pursuing this field (and many of them abandoning it, unfortunately), but because I have a child in school. She goes to one of the best schools in the state, and while she has many good teachers, she has some mediocre ones, too. It would be refreshing if the best and brightest were drawn to the teaching profession, and rewarded, because what they are doing is every bit if not more important than the work of a cop, or a firefighter, or a campaign flunky for one of our genius politicians.

One must be truly dedicated to pursue teaching in Oklahoma right now. The pay is low with a governor and legislature that will never change that. There are ridiculous mandates from the state (deriving from the legislature and state ed department) to teach to tests. They aren't even provided adequate classroom resources to teach. Meanwhile, they are saddled with crippling student loan payments for the foreseeable future.

This is endangering the economic livelihood of this state. This is a serious problem. And it's a problem that is not being addressed.

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

Basic economics 101 says cost is driven by supply vs demand. We have a shortage of teachers vs the demand for teaching positions because we don't pay enough to increase the supply to meet the demand. That means we don't pay enough. It's not complicated.

Worse than that, because of this imbalance between pay and demand we will hire ANYONE that is qualified on paper to be a teacher. And have to keep them, no matter what, because we can't replace them.

The average teacher pay in Oklahoma is over $44K; and that does not include benefits (other than retirement paid by the district):

Estimated average annual salary of teachers in public elementary and secondary schools, by state: Selected years, 1969-70 through 2012-13 (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.asp)

The average teacher pay in Oklahoma is over $44K; and that does not include benefits (other than retirement paid by the district):

Estimated average annual salary of teachers in public elementary and secondary schools, by state: Selected years, 1969-70 through 2012-13 (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.asp)

Just look at the vacancies being advertised. They do not pay this. Perhaps this includes teachers who also coach football and basketball. They get paid more. But classroom teachers are not making this.

Basic economics 101 says cost is driven by supply vs demand. We have a shortage of teachers vs the demand for teaching positions because we don't pay enough to increase the supply to meet the demand. That means we don't pay enough. It's not complicated.

Worse than that, because of this imbalance between pay and demand we will hire ANYONE that is qualified on paper to be a teacher. And have to keep them, no matter what, because we can't replace them.

Again, this is a nationwide problem, and not unique to Oklahoma.

Teachers in general are not paid enough -- not one is arguing that fact.


But the point remains: You can still make a good living as a teacher in Oklahoma or anywhere else.

BTW, I worked for six years in public schools along side teachers in Los Angeles Unified. I ran a nonprofit for at-risk teens and we actually helped to provide outreach and instruction in middle & high school classrooms. And these schools were infinitely more challenging than just about any place in Oklahoma.

So, I know a fair bit about which I speak.

Just look at the vacancies being advertised. They do not pay this. Perhaps this includes teachers who also coach football and basketball. They get paid more. But classroom teachers are not making this.

There are actually statewide minimums determined by education level and number of years teaching.

School districts cannot pay LESS than these amounts and most pay more:

http://ok.gov/sde/sites/ok.gov.sde/files/documents/files/2014-2015%20State%20Minimum%20Salary%20Schedule.pdf

Again, this is a nationwide problem, and not unique to Oklahoma.

Teachers in general are not paid enough -- not one is arguing that fact.


You kinda are arguing that fact. While it is a national problem, it's worse in Oklahoma because the pay is worse.



But the point remains: You can still make a good living as a teacher in Oklahoma or anywhere else.

Your version of a good living is obviously different than most people's, because not enough people are wanting to become teachers. You can find people to do any job, you just have to pay enough. We don't currently pay teachers enough to encourage debt laden college graduates to choose to teach.

You kinda are arguing that fact. While it is a national problem, it's worse in Oklahoma because the pay is worse.

There is no indication it's any worse in Oklahoma then lots of places that pay more.

Virtually every state is facing the same sort of shortages.

Pete,

Please see the attached screen shots of CURRENT salaries for OKC Public Schools employees. Please note that even with a Doctorate, and eight years of experience, someone only makes $38k a year. This is from the OKCPS website and outlines the current salaries as part of the collective bargaining. I don't know what data you're citing from that study -- and perhaps we have a lot of 10 to 40 year teachers, which might skew the salary average, but I cannot imagine getting a masters or doctorate and working ten years or more just to crack $40k. By the way, OKC pays better than any of the suburban districts.

9011

Sorry, the photo is too small. But here's the fine print:

In OKC, with a masters degree and 10 years experience, your salary is $38,575. With a Doctorate, it's $41,225

With a bachelors degree and 10 years experience, your salary is $36,675.

Imagine the pay with three, four, or five years experience? Worse than this, of course.

So it's really pretty simple. To go to OU or OSU, you're looking at roughly $65k in expenses. Let's say you have to get student loans. Would this attract you to the profession?

And here's a link to the REAL salaries, not the fluffed up ones: http://okcs.schooldesk.net/Portals/Okcs/District/docs/Human%20Capital/Contract%20-%20Compensation/2013-2014%20OKCPS-AFT%20Collective%20Bargaining%20Agreement%20-%20F711.pdf

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

You're right Pete, there are good benefits in the public school teaching profession.

Oklahoma City Public School District I-89 contract allows full time teachers the option to have their pay distributed over a 9-month or 12-month period. It's probably the same with most districts in the OKC area. Department heads, sponsors and coaches receive a stipend distributed over the selected period. This allows teachers to take summer school classes to work toward an advanced degree. Teachers on the 12-month pay distribution can take on a summer job to make additional money during that interim period.

Teachers selected to teach summer school will receive an additional warrant if they are on the 12-month pay distribution. The money to finance summer school comes from the Directors (Elementary, Middle, High School) separate account for selected summer school sites. Teachers have great benefits in this profession.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Actually OKCPS pays less than most suburban schools:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Portals/0/2013-2014Total%20Compensation%20Comparison.pdf


And a teacher with a doctorate and eight years experience earns $43K for a 10-month year at Putnam City Schools, plus year-round benefits:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Portals/0/Teacher%20Compensation%20Schedule%20doctorate%2020 13-2014.pdf

There is no indication it's any worse in Oklahoma then lots of places that pay more.

Virtually every state is facing the same sort of shortages.

Well you're overlooking the fact that many teachers get their education in Oklahoma and leave to Texas, where they are in fact paid more with only a moderately higher cost of living.

In no way am I saying that teachers in general don't deserve to be paid more.

But I am saying that teaching is still a good career for many, in Oklahoma and most other places.

And when do you ever hear anybody say that?

Well you're overlooking the fact that many teachers get their education in Oklahoma and leave to Texas, where they are in fact paid more with only a moderately higher cost of living.

On average, Texas pays $4K a year more than Oklahoma. And they have big shortages too.

Also, lots of people leave Oklahoma for jobs in Texas; has been happening for decades and in all fields, not just education.

Most districts in Texas have 12 pay periods (one each month). OCPS pay period are usually on the 1st and the 15th. Medical benefits selected depends on the plan with districts paying 50% to 80% of the plan.

Oklahoma City area districts as a whole have good competitive benefits. Salary base is higher in many of the surrounding states; however the cost of living, mobility and benefits vary within each state and district. I have a number of friends who left Oklahoma for California, Illinois, Texas and Arizona; some of them are dying to get back to Oklahoma.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Until I started working in schools and really talking to teachers and researching this whole matter, I just assumed -- as do most Americans -- that we pay our teachers slave wages, making it impossible for anyone to earn a decent living. But my personal experiences (I know tons of teachers) and research did not support this ostensibly unassailable truth.

Here is a detailed, dispassionate article on teacher's salaries from a contributor to Forbes, citing data from the Department of Labor (BLS). I urge people to read it with an open mind... And imagine that teaching as a career was presented in this way, rather in the manner it has been portrayed by virtually everyone you know in the educational field:

The Teacher Salary Myth -- Are Teachers Underpaid? - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2011/12/22/the-teacher-salary-myth-are-teachers-underpaid/)

I taught for several years and it was never about money in conversations with my peers. We liked the job, felt appreciated, and liked the 9 month schedule that worked well with our families. None of us drove to work while doing the math in our head about how much money we were making an hour. We loved our pensions but we mostly loved our job.

In a few years, I'll have a nice spot of money coming in every month. That's huge and you can't factor in the salary without considering what the pension is worth.

I didn't leave teaching to make money, rather, I just wanted another kind of challenge. It never was about money.

But people are right - the job has changed and it is not nearly as rewarding as it once was. YOU COULD NOT PAY ME ENOUGH to put up with some of the clueless, narcissistic parents with their out of control children, these days that are in the public schools. Private schools are the way to go - for them, it isn't about money. It is about feeling like what you are doing matters.

Appreciate that perspective, Penny.

But remember, young people coming into the teaching profession at this point (or relatively recently) don't compare to how things used to be with parents and kids, and that no doubt makes it easier for them to accept the current realities.

Almost all my friends in OKC have put their kids through various public school systems (Edmond, PC, Bethany, OKC, Moore), all with much better teachers than I ever had, and I went to the PC schools during the height of their glory years.

On average, Texas pays $4K a year more than Oklahoma. And they have big shortages too.

Also, lots of people leave Oklahoma for jobs in Texas; has been happening for decades and in all fields, not just education.

As my factual information has shown, the 'average' salary you cite is not an accurate picture of the salaries paid in Oklahoma. You also continue to ignore the realities of the cost of higher education in Oklahoma.

Incoming students today have to bear a greater percentage of the cost of their education than any generation previous. So they have to rack up massive student loan debt. And then they can look forward to low wages in our schools for at least a decade or more.

You've made your point, but it's not going to solve the problem. The problem is a teacher shortage. The reason is there aren't enough people pursuing the career. The solution is probably a combination of things, but more rewarding pay is probably one of them. I don't think anyone goes into teaching looking to get rich.

My info was factual as well and took into account the whole state, not one school district that was demonstrated to pay less than most others.

My info was factual as well and took into account the whole state, not one school district that was demonstrated to pay less than most others.

OKC is one of the highest paying districts in Oklahoma. It pays more than Norman, Edmond, Moore, or Yukon. Your link was a national study that did not break down classroom salaries. It probably includes lifetime teachers as well as coaches and others who receive additional pay.

The information I provided was actual pay, today, for teachers. Not something from some kind of study.

^

You missed the following link that compares salaries across the various OKC-area school districts:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Portals/0/2013-2014Total%20Compensation%20Comparison.pdf

^

You missed the following link that compares salaries across the various OKC-area school districts:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Portals/0/2013-2014Total%20Compensation%20Comparison.pdf

This is "total compensation," and the discussion is teacher salaries.

I find this whole thing weird and somewhat surprising, though, Pete. It seems like your argument is: "Teachers are paid better than people think, but they always bitch about their pay, so young people hear that and don't want to be teachers, and if they didn't have unions to also bitch about their pay, we would have more young people wanting to be teachers."

Very strange argument that fails to address the underlying problem.

^

Total Comp just means salary plus retirement contributions by the district, which is factored into all the salary comparisons. Medical and other benefits are separate.

In any event your point about OKCPS being better paying than most OKC area districts is incorrect.

^

Total Comp just means salary plus retirement contributions by the district, which is factored into all the salary comparisons. Medical and other benefits are separate.

In any event your point about OKCPS being better paying than most OKC area districts is incorrect.

OMG. OK, Pete. I'll just ignore the actual knowledge I have from my family member who has actually worked in those districts and interviewed for jobs in those districts in favor of this study by Putnam City. Geez.

And no, when I interview I want to to know what the pay is before benefits. I'm not going to allow an employer to use a "total compensation" shell game. Tell me my pay and my benefits and I'll go from there.

Here is a link to the pay for Edmond Public Schools. Looks very similar to OKC, but as you suggest, it is a little bit more:

If you have 10 years experience and a masters degree, in Edmond your salary is: $39,134 annually (you are correct; this is an additional $80 per month over OKC).

If you have 10 years experience and a bachelors, in Edmond your salary is: $38, 166 annually (you are correct; this is approximately $110 more per month than OKC).

Nevertheless, the pay is substantially less than advertised. It certainly is not $44,000 a year. However, if you're willing to work in Edmond Public Schools for 22 years, your pay will rise to that amount.

http://www.edmondschools.net/Portals/0/docs/Personnel/TeacherSalary13-14.pdf

You are more than welcome to hang on to second-hand, general anecdotal evidence versus hard data published by the districts and government.

I'm not so much arguing with you as putting this information out for anyone who may actually be open to learning and maybe even challenging some long-held assumptions, as I did for the first time about 10 years ago.

You are more than welcome to hang on to second-hand, general anecdotal evidence versus hard data published by the districts and government.

I'm not so much arguing with you as putting this information out for anyone who may actually be open to learning and maybe even challenging some long-held assumptions, as I did for the first time about 10 years ago.

I note that you are correct that some of the suburban districts pay a twitch more, but I take exception to your comment. I provided direct, actual salary information from the school districts. This is the hardest data provided for this discussion. Did you look at the salary data I provided from the Edmond and OKC school districts?

I think you may be holding on to information that is easily obtained, such as the wage study you cited earlier in the thread. The study that suggests teachers make $44k a year. It doesn't tell much of the story.

Looking at the "hard data" that I provided tells a different story. You can rack up tons of student loan debt for a job that after 10 years and a masters degree doesn't even pay $40k. The lazy way out of this is just to throw up one's hands and say, "Those teachers don't have it so bad." Also, you cite the anecdotal evidence of having worked with teachers in the LA school system. While I think this is great and I would like to learn more about your experience, it doesn't relate to the topic at hand, which is that Oklahoma has a teacher shortage.

You can rack up tons of student loan debt for a job that after 10 years and a masters degree doesn't even pay $40k.

many teachers are eligible for student loan forgiveness programs. -M

many teachers are eligible for student loan forgiveness programs. -M

That's great. Very smart idea.

many teachers are eligible for student loan forgiveness programs. -M

That is a good thing and correct me if I'm wrong isn't that based on if they work in certain area's where their needed the most?

I support merit pay for teachers where the good ones do make more, I think they all should make more, but there needs to be a better incentive like most other occupations have.

Multiple choice question...

1. Bad teachers
2. Stupid people
3. Stoned


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGdc0IfF6rg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8DNGh126oM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2eyq9qTOQY