View Full Version : Murder or Self Defense? One punch, one kill - but what led up to it........



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

BBatesokc
08-19-2014, 06:14 AM
Interesting story. I'm certain there is more that has not been reported, but simply based on this report, I don't see how this isn't self-defense.

KFOR: One dead after being punched once in club fight, man arrested for murder (link (http://kfor.com/2014/08/18/man-arrested-for-murder-following-fight-outside-okc-club/))

"OKLAHOMA CITY – The death of a local man has many people asking if it is a case of murder or self-defense.

Authorities say the victim, 27-year-old Jeremy Rafford, died after being hit one time in the face in a bar fight.

It happened at the Cove Club near SE 15th and I-35.

The alleged suspect is a former Marine and did not have a criminal history.

Witnesses at the club say the suspect was actually defending himself after being licked in the face by Rafford.

“I’m singing like 3 lines of my song and I hear crash, bang, boom,” said Christina Woods.

Woods says the victim helped instigate the fight by licking the alleged suspect, 32-year-old David Bales, in the face.

“That’s when David punched him one time and he hit the ground,” said Woods.

“David hit him and next thing you know he’s in jail for murder for basically defending himself,” said Martin Hobbs.

Hobbs owns the property where fight took place.

He says after the fight, Bales left the club and went home.

However, he came back after hearing about the death.

“They called him up and said the guy passed away and he came back to talk to the cops and told them he was just drinking a beer and defending himself,” said Hobbs.

“He was trying to defend himself because this guy was in his face,” said Woods.

For their part, police can only say they’re still investigating the circumstances of the fight.

Those at the club all sympathize with the victim’s family, but say what happened is a clear case of self-defense.

“David was absolutely defending himself,” said Hobbs.

“He didn’t purposely kill this guy. It was self-defense. He was defending himself to someone who licked his face,” said Woods.

The alleged suspect has not officially been charged with murder but remains in jail without bond.

Whether or not he’s charged with murder or a lesser charge will be up to the district attorney to decide."

Of Sound Mind
08-19-2014, 06:51 AM
Self defense

Jersey Boss
08-19-2014, 07:01 AM
I wonder if the victim had some connections, such as a CI?

Filthy
08-19-2014, 07:27 AM
Self defense? The guy licked him...

You are correct, in the fact that there is probably more to this story...but its not surprising to see yet another "former" marine/military personell, in the news for being violent/assaulting someone. I'm sure PTSD will be used as his defense and he will walk away scott free.

BBatesokc
08-19-2014, 07:27 AM
Reminds me of an unfortunate case and trial I sat through a few years ago. A guy at the Porthole club stabbed a bully once in the chest - killing him. It was absolutely self-defense. First trial was deadlocked. Defendant was so desperate to get out of jail he pled to manslaughter and was released. Not justice at all.

Of Sound Mind
08-19-2014, 07:37 AM
Self defense? The guy licked him...

You are correct, in the fact that there is probably more to this story...but its not surprising to see yet another "former" marine/military personell, in the news for being violent/assaulting someone. I'm sure PTSD will be used as his defense and he will walk away scott free.
The lick is an assault. He provoked the confrontation. The marine was defending himself from the assault. His reasonable defense — ONE punch — just happened to be more potent than most.

Filthy
08-19-2014, 07:45 AM
The lick is an assault. He provoked the confrontation. The marine was defending himself from the assault. His reasonable defense — ONE punch — just happened to be more potent than most.

Understood. I will remember that, when my 3 year old neice licks my elbow. I will be sure to bludgeon her to death with my ONE PUNCH. Because afterall..she licked me...so, she assaulted me first.

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 07:46 AM
The lick is an assault. He provoked the confrontation. The marine was defending himself from the assault. His reasonable defense — ONE punch — just happened to be more potent than most.

Could have done a lot of other reasonable things using force that wasn't well beyond the apparent threat he was presented with, pushed him away, open handed slap, etc. I don't think the law is on the puncher's side but we don't really know all the facts. What led up to the lick? Threatening words exchanged or just being annoying?

That said, depending on circumstances I probably would have hit the guy too.

BBatesokc
08-19-2014, 07:49 AM
Self defense? The guy licked him...

You are correct, in the fact that there is probably more to this story...but its not surprising to see yet another "former" marine/military personell, in the news for being violent/assaulting someone. I'm sure PTSD will be used as his defense and he will walk away scott free.


Ummm, if it happened as reported, the Marine was simply defending himself. While you may welcome or otherwise brush off a stranger walking up and licking you, I for one would react the same as this man - unfortunately I highly doubt a single punch from myself would result in death. A lick is an assault every bit as much as a fist blow would have been.

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 07:50 AM
Ummm, if it happened as reported, the Marine was simply defending himself. While you may welcome or otherwise brush off a stranger walking up and licking you, I for one would react the same as this man - unfortunately I highly doubt a single punch from myself would result in death. A lick is an assault every bit as much as a fist blow would have been.

Deadly force is not a reasonable response to every assault.

BBatesokc
08-19-2014, 07:51 AM
Understood. I will remember that, when my 3 year old neice licks my elbow. I will be sure to bludgeon her to death with my ONE PUNCH. Because afterall..she licked me...so, she assaulted me first.

Seriously, you equate your 3 year old niece licking your elbow as equivalent to a grown man approaching another man in a bar and licking them? If so, your family functions must be quite the show.

BBatesokc
08-19-2014, 07:52 AM
Deadly force is not a reasonable reaction to every assault.

A single punch leveled on someone who is technically assaulting you is not considered deadly force. There is no indication or expectation a single blow will be deadly.

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 07:53 AM
A single punch leveled on someone who is technically assaulting you is not considered deadly force.

The facts as we know them in this case say otherwise.

Filthy
08-19-2014, 08:09 AM
Seriously, you equate your 3 year old niece licking your elbow as equivalent to a grown man approaching another man in a bar and licking them? If so, your family functions must be quite the show.


I appreciate the concerted effort in trying to fabricate and/or deflect the topic at hand. I will do my best to slow it down for you, so you can digest it. A grown man, licking another man..is NO MORE harmful than a young child licking someone. There is NO THREAT. You cannot go around "killing" people just because you are uncomfortable with something.

kevinpate
08-19-2014, 08:11 AM
The facts as [some] [interpret] them in this case say otherwise.

Fixed that for you.

As for myself, I'd prefer to know a bit more information before doing a back flip off a rock pile of inadequate information and deciding where I want to land. There is a whole lot that may or may not have occurred in a second or three between a lick and a landed punch.

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 08:13 AM
Fixed that for you.

As for myself, I'd prefer to know a bit more information before doing a back flip off a rock pile of inadequate information and deciding where I want to land. There is a whole lot that may or may not have occurred in a second or three between a lick and a landed punch.

I said that.

Some might want to review "eggshell skull" while we wait on the justice system to grind this up.

Martin
08-19-2014, 08:24 AM
Some might want to review "eggshell skull" while we wait on the justice system to grind this up.

doesn't the concept of 'eggshell skull' apply more to civil law than to criminal law? -M

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 08:27 AM
doesn't the concept of 'eggshell skull' apply more to civil law than to criminal law? -M

I wondered that myself until I Googled it to see.

"The rule is applied in tort and criminal cases involving a plaintiff in a vulnerable, weakened state or suffering from a medical condition."

Eggshell Skull Law & Legal Definition (http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/eggshell-skull/)

Roger S
08-19-2014, 08:38 AM
. A grown man, licking another man..is NO MORE harmful than a young child licking someone. There is NO THREAT.

Hmmm... The human mouth is one of the most septic parts of the human body. So unless you don't find hepatitis, hiv, or any other number of communicable diseases a threat. I guess you are right.

Martin
08-19-2014, 08:39 AM
I wondered that myself until I Googled it to see.

gotcha... that makes sense. still, does that apply criminally if somebody is taking otherwise lawful action? -M

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 08:52 AM
gotcha... that makes sense. still, does that apply criminally if somebody is taking otherwise lawful action? -M

"lawful action" is still undetermined but my guess is it would not apply if the punch were considered lawful.

kelroy55
08-19-2014, 08:54 AM
I don't know all the facts of this case but I can say if a stranger walked up to me in a bar, or anywhere else, and licked me in the face chances are they would get punched.

Jeepnokc
08-19-2014, 08:56 AM
Some argue that Mixon's actions were self defense as he was slapped first. May be self defense but the self defense should be in relation to the force presented. There is still a lot of questions that need to be asked. For example, I would want to know what this guy did in the marines (ie...are his hands lethal weapons due to his training) as well as want to know any medical conditions that victim may have had before making a determination of whether the one punch was in relation to the harm presented.

Martin
08-19-2014, 09:07 AM
my guess is it would not apply if the punch were considered lawful.

that's what i'm thinking. -M

rezman
08-19-2014, 09:11 AM
I appreciate the concerted effort in trying to fabricate and/or deflect the topic at hand. I will do my best to slow it down for you, so you can digest it. A grown man, licking another man..is NO MORE harmful than a young child licking someone. There is NO THREAT. You cannot go around "killing" people just because you are uncomfortable with something.

Yes, but unlike your three year old, you don't know where that adult man's tongue has been.

td25er
08-19-2014, 09:11 AM
I agree it was self defense, but I also agree Joe Mixon acted in self defense.

Tell me people, how is this different than the Joe Mixon case? A marine-trained man punches a drunk idiot after being assaulted. A football player punches a drunk idiot after being assaulted. Great harm results in both punches (to various degrees).

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 09:21 AM
that's what i'm thinking. -M

besides, most of us know a punch to the face can be lethal even to a healthy person. IMO it's reasonable to expect that as a possible outcome of punching someone in the face.

I think a claim upthread was made otherwise, it's not reasonable to expect that as a possible outcome.

If the case hinges on it was reasonable to defend oneself with deadly force then the distinction doesn't matter. It it hinges on it was reasonable to punch the guy because normally a punch to the face doesn't kill someone it gets kind of murky IMO.

kevinpate
08-19-2014, 09:22 AM
td25er, one less living person to interview somewhat leaps to mind.

Jersey Boss
08-19-2014, 09:23 AM
Some argue that Mixon's actions were self defense as he was slapped first. May be self defense but the self defense should be in relation to the force presented. There is still a lot of questions that need to be asked. For example, I would want to know what this guy did in the marines (ie...are his hands lethal weapons due to his training) as well as want to know any medical conditions that victim may have had before making a determination of whether the one punch was in relation to the harm presented.

Is your position then that the suspect had an obligation to inquire the victims medical history before punching him?

Jersey Boss
08-19-2014, 09:27 AM
besides, most of us know a punch to the face can be lethal even to a healthy person. IMO it's reasonable to expect that as a possible outcome of punching someone in the face.

I think a claim upthread was made otherwise, it's not reasonable to expect that as a possible outcome.

If the case hinges on it was reasonable to defend oneself with deadly force then the distinction doesn't matter. It it hinges on it was reasonable to punch the guy because normally a punch to the face doesn't kill someone it gets kind of murky IMO.

While a punch to the face can be lethal, the probability is quite small. I think that simple assault is a misdemeanor in this state, so even the law doesn't regard a punch as a very serious offense.

Jersey Boss
08-19-2014, 09:30 AM
I agree it was self defense, but I also agree Joe Mixon acted in self defense.

Tell me people, how is this different than the Joe Mixon case? A marine-trained man punches a drunk idiot after being assaulted. A football player punches a drunk idiot after being assaulted. Great harm results in both punches (to various degrees).

That is why ultimately a jury will make the call. Without knowing the facts in either case who the hell can say it was different or similar?

kelroy55
08-19-2014, 09:34 AM
Some argue that Mixon's actions were self defense as he was slapped first. May be self defense but the self defense should be in relation to the force presented. There is still a lot of questions that need to be asked. For example, I would want to know what this guy did in the marines (ie...are his hands lethal weapons due to his training) as well as want to know any medical conditions that victim may have had before making a determination of whether the one punch was in relation to the harm presented.

Not sure what he did in the Marines matters if he didn't intend on using deadly force. I think he just reacted like a lot of people would without the intent of killing the guy. If the guy had a medical condition that would cause getting punched to kill him he shouldn't be going up and licking strangers in the face at a bar. I'm not sure what reaction he expected but it's almost like getting out of your sprint car at night and running down on the track to yell at somebody going around the track. You do stupid things and sometimes bad things happen.

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 09:36 AM
While a punch to the face can be lethal, the probability is quite small. I think that simple assault is a misdemeanor in this state, so even the law doesn't regard a punch as a very serious offense.

That's where eggshell skull could come into play, if he broke the law.

jerrywall
08-19-2014, 09:36 AM
Deadly force is not a reasonable response to every assault.

So if he just shoved him backwards, and the freak tripped, fell down, and hit his head on the corner of a table, and then died, would that should then be considered deadly force?

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 09:44 AM
I dunno, you tell me. If a thug pushed your daughter (in theory if you don't have one) she fell, hit her head and died, was it deadly force?

jerrywall
08-19-2014, 09:52 AM
I dunno, you tell me. If a thug pushed your daughter (in theory if you don't have one) she fell, hit her head and died, was it deadly force?

I don't think so.... Is deadly force defined by the act or the result? If a kid tripped my kid on the playground, and through an unfortunate circumstance he died, I'm not sure I would consider it deadly force. If I playfully punch a friend on the arm, and it knocks loose a blood clot and he has a stroke, was that punch deadly force? Of course not.

As for my hypothetical daughter... if she was shoved away in response to an attack initiated by her, the push would be self defense. If she was just pushed by a thug, then it was assault. If the shove resulted in her death, and it was assault, then it would be 2nd degree murder. But if the shove resulted in her death and the shove was self defense, then the death is an unfortunate accident.

kelroy55
08-19-2014, 09:54 AM
I dunno, you tell me. If a thug pushed your daughter (in theory if you don't have one) she fell, hit her head and died, was it deadly force?

Who said anything about a thug?

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 09:54 AM
I don't think so.... Is deadly force defined by the act or the result? If a kid tripped my kid on the playground, and through an unfortunate circumstance he died, I'm not sure I would consider it deadly force. If I playfully punch a friend on the arm, and it knocks loose a blood clot and he has a stroke, was that punch deadly force? Of course not.

As for my hypothetical daughter... if she was shoved away in response to an attack initiated by her, the push would be self defense. If she was just pushed by a thug, then it was assault. If the shove resulted in her death, and it was assault, then it would be 2nd degree murder. But if the shove resulted in her death and the shove was self defense, then the death is an unfortunate accident.

Agreed. I said he might have pushed the guy away as a response. Did not mean "shove". (And the guy might have tripped, hit his head and died. Cops would probably arrest him and we would still be talking about it.)

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 09:59 AM
Who said anything about a thug?

We were talking hypotheticals. In the hypothetical presented one person was defined as a "freak." Why was that definition made?

jerrywall
08-19-2014, 09:59 AM
Cause he walked up and licked someone?

mkjeeves
08-19-2014, 10:06 AM
But he wasn't shoved, it was part of your hypothetical question and I responded with a different hypothetical question.

(It's all pretty much hypothetical since we really don't know squat about what happened.)

ylouder
08-19-2014, 11:23 AM
I agree it was self defense, but I also agree Joe Mixon acted in self defense.

Tell me people, how is this different than the Joe Mixon case? A marine-trained man punches a drunk idiot after being assaulted. A football player punches a drunk idiot after being assaulted. Great harm results in both punches (to various degrees).
This is where I believe justice is not blind regardless of how some people try to say it is.

While I would be disgusted at another person licking my face my reaction to it shouldn't cause their death.

So if a teenage boy kisses a girl who he likes and the girl has no interest she can end his life?

Or if a large older woman kisses me I can assault her and cause her death?

I'm not saying the guy should get murder 1, but atleast involuntary man slaughter.

OKCisOK4me
08-19-2014, 11:24 AM
Has anyone seen Conair? This is the beginning of that movie. The plot will thicken... Unfortunate for all parties involved and their families.

kevinpate
08-19-2014, 11:34 AM
The most important three seconds, give or take a bit, in David Bales' life were those moments immediately after the lick. What, if anything transpired in the seconds right before the lick will also come into play.

Honestly, I can't tell from the information presented what happened other than there was a lick and a punch and the lick giver was dead right there after the punch.

I anticipate there's at least a brief Paul Harvey period as well. If so, that part of the story will determine what, if any, charges are brought in the matter.

Mel
08-19-2014, 01:05 PM
Spiting on a cop is illegal. Licking a Marine should be at least in the top 5 of your "Do not do this list". You have no idea what disease the stiff had. That is an assault. Nowadays you have to be careful not to cut your knuckles on somebody's teeth. If the guy just gad to lick men he should have gone to Angles or the Cabana.

kelroy55
08-19-2014, 01:12 PM
Spiting on a cop is illegal. Licking a Marine should be at least in the top 5 of your "Do not do this list". You have no idea what disease the stiff had. That is an assault. Nowadays you have to be careful not to cut your knuckles on somebody's teeth. If the guy just gad to lick men he should have gone to Angles or the Cabana.

Again, you do stupid stuff you should be surprised at the result. I seriously doubt the guy intended on killing him and was just reacting to some idiot that licked his face by punching him. Like I said there's a good chance I would have punched him as well, or grab his tongue with some pliers and stretched it out.

PennyQuilts
08-19-2014, 01:33 PM
Assuming there aren't some very weird facts out there, I am surprised anyone would think the marine would face criminal liability over this. One punch in response to an unsolicited face lick in a bar? It isn't like he pounded him into a puddle. Someone brought up PTSD. Under these facts, what would even suggest that?

The lick was a battery - forget a mere "assault." Would we even be having this conversation if some jerk came up to your daughter and licked her face? If she slapped the &@$; out of him, no one would be questioning if she over reacted. Lick a marine's face without permission? Worse than fighting words. Any rational human being would expect to get punched. There isn't a person here who actually believes the "appropriate" response would be for the marine to "talk" to the licker, lick back or leave a public place. This stranger was not this guy's niece. What kind of world would we be living in if some drunk could feel justified or entitled to go around licking the faces of total strangers?

PennyQuilts
08-19-2014, 01:57 PM
Well, I see where the marine was arrested on a murder charge. The news reports refer to the death as resulting from a "fight." Perhaps the "rest of the story" will pop up. I didn't get around to looking up the marine but the licker had a slew of VPO violations, indebtedness and traffic problems. Sad.

kelroy55
08-19-2014, 02:12 PM
Well, I see where the marine was arrested on a murder charge. The news reports refer to the death as resulting from a "fight." Perhaps the "rest of the story" will pop up. I didn't get around to looking up the marine but the licker had a slew of VPO violations, indebtedness and traffic problems. Sad.

From what I've read every witness has said it was a case of self defense so not sure why he was charged with murder.

ylouder
08-19-2014, 03:32 PM
it's very telling in how the some of the public thinks that a lick is alright in excusing death.

We can straw men all we want to about daughters and sisters but this isn't any real different than a simple nonviolent altercation (like a unwanted push or a brush against someone else) and responding in a way that causes death.

Heck you could get in a fist fight that leads to death and still be guilty of killing another person.

Must not be christian or respect actual morale and civil laws if any interaction makes it alright to be the judge, jury, and executioner.

jerrywall
08-19-2014, 03:45 PM
Yes, because someone has said it's ok to intentionally kill someone for a lick. </sarcasm>

Are you off to see the wizard with that Strawman?

Filthy
08-19-2014, 03:51 PM
I hope this guy gets throttled to the highest extent of the law. And I hope he takes it in the pooper in prison for the next 40 years.

ylouder
08-19-2014, 03:57 PM
Post 47. Jerry.

jerrywall
08-19-2014, 04:01 PM
Post 47. Jerry.

Nope, she does not say he deserves to die, or that it would be ok for someone to intend to kill him. Just that a punch is a reasonable response to that type of assault.

ylouder
08-19-2014, 04:11 PM
But a person has to be responsible for the outcome of their reactions.

silvergrove
08-19-2014, 04:24 PM
An unfortunate outcome all around.

jerrywall
08-19-2014, 04:27 PM
But a person has to be responsible for the outcome of their reactions.

Certainly. Which is why the question of self defense comes up. But death is not a reasonable expectation when punching someone (just once). I'm sure the marine is and will forever be horrified by the result of his punch. But IF the story is all that's here, the punch is a response to assault and battery by the victim. So in this case, the personal ultimately responsible for the outcome is the one who did the licking. Just like a bank robber is responsible for the consequence of getting shot by the police, not the policeman.

Jeepnokc
08-19-2014, 04:31 PM
Is your position then that the suspect had an obligation to inquire the victims medical history before punching him?

No. I would want to know in deciding if the force was reasonable. Would the force used have caused the death in a person without an unknown medical condition. If not, then the force used may have been more reasonable

Jeepnokc
08-19-2014, 04:33 PM
That is why ultimately a jury will make the call. Without knowing the facts in either case who the hell can say it was different or similar?

May never make it to criminal jury if DA doesn't file charges.

BBatesokc
08-19-2014, 05:09 PM
From what I've read every witness has said it was a case of self defense so not sure why he was charged with murder.

He hasn't been charged with anything. He was simply arrested on a criminal complaint of murder.