Oklahoma City-area malls thrive amid national reports of other malls' deaths | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-area-malls-thrive-amid-national-reports-of-other-malls-deaths/article/5142295)

The story really doesn't say much except "hey we have malls still."

Heritage Park and Shepard are gone. Crossroads might as well be. The others are all pretty stable. Looking at other cities I would say it has just been a case of over saturation of the market by malls. My hometown had 4 when I was growing up there. Three of those are gone (two completely torn down). A new lifestyle center hybrid mall was built by GGP a few years back and then another developer put in another lifestyle center in another part of the area. The one traditional mall left is where the better stores tend to go, like Apple and such.

For me...I haven't stepped foot in a mall for a couple years. No real need. If I need anything I have Amazon and it is delivered free in a couple days.

It will be interesting to see how things progress in the area with more retail going in. I'm definitely interested to see how much of a hit Sooner takes once the lifestyle center gets going at UNP in a couple years.

The story really doesn't say much except "hey we have malls still"...

That by itself makes OKC a bit of an outlier though. I think one reason traditional, enclosed malls still do well here is due to the fact that so far we've missed out on the national trend toward lifestyle centers. They haven't seen the same level of competition from newer, hipper places that malls in other cities have been subjected to. In that regard, having thriving malls is actually probably a bit of a backhanded compliment to the retail climate here.

That by itself makes OKC a bit of an outlier though. I think one reason traditional, enclosed malls still do well here is due to the fact that so far we've missed out on the national trend toward lifestyle centers. They haven't seen the same level of competition from newer, hipper places that malls in other cities have been subjected to. In that regard, having thriving malls is actually probably a bit of a backhanded compliment to the retail climate here.

There are still tons of traditional malls around the country, at least partially I think some of it is our market went through an earlier correction on how many malls were trying to be regional players due to the oil bust. There was still a lot of developers and cities subsidizing malls well after that around the country till the great recession made all the players more careful.

I thinl I might have said this before but it gives us old folks somewhere out of this heat to walk.

I thinl I might have said this before but it gives us old folks somewhere out of this heat to walk.

Yep, sometimes when I go to Northpark I feel like I'm disturbing the walkers by having the gall to be strolling and looking in the shops! It's hard to stay out of their way. :)

Northpark has some serious high speed walkers there. With a mean look in their eyes.

Mel,
I have hated malls for years, but now have found myself in a situation where they are invaluable. And like you, I'm a little older, and I am also on a scooter, so constant unloading/loading it on the car (I do have an electric lift), is a little tedious. I can go to Quail Springs and do everything I need, then load my scooter on my car and go home. And, like Venture, I do shop a good bit online but it doesn't always pay.
C. T.
I thinl I might have said this before but it gives us old folks somewhere out of this heat to walk.

Northpark has some serious high speed walkers there. With a mean look in their eyes.I can't get any slack anywhere now a days ;)

I can't get any slack anywhere now a days ;)

Obviously that mall is needing some flyovers for the fast walkers. ;)

There are still tons of traditional malls around the country, at least partially I think some of it is our market went through an earlier correction on how many malls were trying to be regional players due to the oil bust. There was still a lot of developers and cities subsidizing malls well after that around the country till the great recession made all the players more careful.

The last mall to "close" in San Antonio was McCreless Mall back in 2007, but I put the word closed in quotation marks because the enclosed mall was razed so a larger open air shopping center could be built, it is now called McCreless Market.

San Antonio still has five enclosed malls.

Of the four enclosed malls that have closed in the last 15-20 years, three have been redeveloped into new shopping centers and one was converted into the headquarters for Rackspace.

That by itself makes OKC a bit of an outlier though. I think one reason traditional, enclosed malls still do well here is due to the fact that so far we've missed out on the national trend toward lifestyle centers. They haven't seen the same level of competition from newer, hipper places that malls in other cities have been subjected to. In that regard, having thriving malls is actually probably a bit of a backhanded compliment to the retail climate here.

I've traveled all around the US and can't think of any major US city that doesn't have malls, although I don't go seek them out I see them all the time. The DFW area still has a ton of huge malls.

The last mall to "close" in San Antonio was McCreless Mall back in 2007, but I put the word closed in quotation marks because the enclosed mall was razed so a larger open air shopping center could be built, it is now called McCreless Market.

San Antonio still has five enclosed malls.

Of the four enclosed malls that have closed in the last 15-20 years, three have been redeveloped into new shopping centers and one was converted into the headquarters for Rackspace.
How many upscale?

The last mall to "close" in San Antonio was McCreless Mall back in 2007, but I put the word closed in quotation marks because the enclosed mall was razed so a larger open air shopping center could be built, it is now called McCreless Market.

San Antonio still has five enclosed malls.

Of the four enclosed malls that have closed in the last 15-20 years, three have been redeveloped into new shopping centers and one was converted into the headquarters for Rackspace.

Wasn't able to edit this but I was incorrect. There are six enclosed malls still in San Antonio, not five: Rivercenter Mall, Ingram Mall, Northstar Mall, Rolling Oaks Mall, South Park Mall, Wonderland of the Americas Mall.

Four enclosed malls have closed: Windsor Park Mall, Central Park Mall, Westlakes Mall, McCreless Mall.

How many upscale?

Of the six enclosed malls left, one. Northstar Mall. Then there's the Shops at La Cantera, which has a mall configuration but is open air and then there's phase II of the mall that has a main street type design. Phase I opened in 2005 and phase II opened in 2010.

I've traveled all around the US and can't think of any major US city that doesn't have malls, although I don't go seek them out I see them all the time. The DFW area still has a ton of huge malls.

Where did I say that other cities don't have enclosed malls? Most of them have multiple malls. But of course many if not most of those are struggling. I mentioned that the national trend has been to move away from them. Malls all over the country are dealing with high vacancy rates, bankruptcies, and customer trends toward dis counters, lifestyle centers, outlet malls and Internet buying. This has been a trend for more than a decade. Go google it for yourself if you doubt this. It's not hard to find dozens of stories about this in credible news, academic and retail industry publications.

Traditional enclosed malls are not being built at all, anywhere, and the lucky ones are the ones that are maintaining decent business, with few if any around the country in true growth mode. A couple of OKC malls have been curiously immune, especially Penn Square, which is as busy now as it has ever been. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but a few years ago it was the best-performing mall per square foot in Simon's entire portfolio, and Simon itself is the best-performing mall owner in the country.

Personally, I still prefer the indoor traditional mall. I hate all the sprawled out strip mall bullcrap that makes it impossible to walk between stores. Throw kids in the mix and it's just a nightmare. At least with indoor malls, you can go regardless of the weather and even just walk around some and it not be a traumatic event.

Personally, I still prefer the indoor traditional mall. I hate all the sprawled out strip mall bullcrap that makes it impossible to walk between stores. Throw kids in the mix and it's just a nightmare. At least with indoor malls, you can go regardless of the weather and even just walk around some and it not be a traumatic event.agreed.

Personally, I still prefer the indoor traditional mall. I hate all the sprawled out strip mall bullcrap that makes it impossible to walk between stores. Throw kids in the mix and it's just a nightmare. At least with indoor malls, you can go regardless of the weather and even just walk around some and it not be a traumatic event.

What about an open air mall?

I prefer the environment of the Shops at La Cantera (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LNMU_-Amed0/UVIEr3aJ_LI/AAAAAAAACS4/NT7nPyfjbdU/s1600/4935851492_2f861a40c1_z.jpg) over the environment of North Star Mall (http://www.labelscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/North-Star_Mall-18.JPG) even though they're both upscale shopping centers.

I go to the mall once a year, at Christmas. That's because I don't think about what I'm going to buy until like 3 days before.

I'm waiting for the obligatory shot at Edmond in this thread....

Anyone thinking traditional, enclosed malls are totally dead anachronisms of the past haven't been to the greater Dallas area lately. Was there this past weekend, and visited two different malls - one in Arlington, and the other in Dallas (Galleria). These places were packed, stores were busy, and in fact the Arlington mall was open well past 10PM and still busy when we left (excepting Starbucks, grrrrr). I'll concede that last weekend was Texas' tax-free back-to-school weekend, but that notwithstanding, these places aren't in danger of folding anytime soon. The Galleria recently completed an expansion and it was clear new construction had been completed fairly recently in Arlington, or so it appeared.

Bit of side-advice: There's an outlet mall on the outskirts of Plano along I-75, and they had the most horrendous traffic management for the tax-free weekend you could imagine. Without going into too much detail, imagine an outlet mall laid out like roughly a square, with two-way entrance/exit traffic at the center of each face, and an inner ring of traffic feeding the lots and the exit/entrance traffic. Under normal loads this surely works fine, but on Saturday, it was a nightmare of snarls. Every intersection was a four-way snarl of stopped traffic with only rental security guards holding "STOP" signs at various corners. It wouldn't have taken a brain surgeon to realize they needed to make all of two entrances one way, the others all exits...but I digress...

Bit of side-advice: There's an outlet mall on the outskirts of Plano along I-75, and they had the most horrendous traffic management for the tax-free weekend you could imagine. Without going into too much detail, imagine an outlet mall laid out like roughly a square, with two-way entrance/exit traffic at the center of each face, and an inner ring of traffic feeding the lots and the exit/entrance traffic. Under normal loads this surely works fine, but on Saturday, it was a nightmare of snarls. Every intersection was a four-way snarl of stopped traffic with only rental security guards holding "STOP" signs at various corners. It wouldn't have taken a brain surgeon to realize they needed to make all of two entrances one way, the others all exits...but I digress...

my friend was the store manager at the gap at this location for a long time. it was always woeful navigating it and felt like no one knew how to drive

The local outlet mall is sure getting some traffic. Yep, not enclosed but laid out similar and a real wonder in 100 degree and everything else temps.

It really shows how lazy people are that they would rather go to a store, walk to their car, drive 100 feet, go to another store, drive another 100 feet to go to another store instead of walking that few hundred feet around a mall.

Anyone thinking traditional, enclosed malls are totally dead anachronisms of the past haven't been to the greater Dallas area lately. Was there this past weekend, and visited two different malls - one in Arlington, and the other in Dallas (Galleria). These places were packed, stores were busy, and in fact the Arlington mall was open well past 10PM and still busy when we left (excepting Starbucks, grrrrr). I'll concede that last weekend was Texas' tax-free back-to-school weekend, but that notwithstanding, these places aren't in danger of folding anytime soon. The Galleria recently completed an expansion and it was clear new construction had been completed fairly recently in Arlington, or so it appeared.


As someone who lives in the DFW area I'm going to politely disagree with some of this.

Yeah pretty much all the malls down here were packed this weekend, but I would consider that an accurate measure of retail performance. I can think of plenty of malls that have bit the dust....just off the top of my head, Prestonwood, Valley View, Richardson Sq, Big Town, Red Bird. That's just in Dallas County.

Collin Creek and Willowbend malls, both in Plano, have struggled a bit. But go across town and the outdoor "lifestyle center" at the Shoppes at Legacy is packed 24/7. Also, I don't think the Galleria has had any expansion but maybe I've missed it. IMO the Galleria has gone downhill. In terms of upscale stores, Northpark and Highland Park Village are cornering that market.

I think much like OKC you are just seeing retail return to a more appropriate equilibrium. Even now DFW is pretty overbuilt in terms of retail space and there's no telling how much Amazon and the internet will ultimately gobble up brick and mortar sales. The malls that will succeed are going to be "destination" type places; I don't think your typicall mall is out of the woods by any means.

Every mall I've gone to in the Dallas area has always been booming. I go to Dallas a few times a month and every single time I go they are absolutely teeming with life.

I will second SoonerDaves comment, traditional enclosed malls are far from dead and as the economy recovers, I'd bet we will see some new construction where needed.

Well, between 1956 and 2005 more than 1500 new, enclosed malls were built nationwide. Thirty per year, on average. And now not a single enclosed mall has been built in this country since 2006 (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-dying-breed-the-american-shopping-mall/) and experts predict half of all existing ones will close in the next ten years. But believe whatever you want to believe, you always do. Don't let facts start getting in the way NOW.

Just like how some said the Era of big box construction was over.

Also, I never stated new malls were going to be built as a fact but was more of what I think is going happen. That's all I meant by it. I understand it's been awhile since was built and that experts suggests half of them will close.... That's fine. I never disputed that or said anything about it.

If you read my post... I merely said every time I go the Dallas area malls which are a few time a month when I travel there, i see them teaming with life. They are great malls... Secondly, i said I think the malls will make a comeback.. That is all. You can calm down.

I live in the DFW area now and avoid the regular malls like the plague. Since I live near the airport, I usually go to the southlake town square area...which is essentially a "lifestyle" center.

I feel like the malls are being killed off by the developers looking to make some cheap strip structures machine gunned around a map of the city so they can get their ROI back quicker. Just the type of developer I hate, the quick return instant gratificaationist with no ties to the city. If you don't build strip malls for people to go to, then they will still come to the stores in the mall.

Take Old Navy in Norman. There is no magically mystery to what would happen if it moved into a store in University Park. People would go to Old Navy there because that's where it is....say what? I know, shocking. If the store stays in the mall, guess what....they go to the mall. The store is what drives where the people go, not the structure. If you don't have the option of driving your car between each store, well guess what, you don't....you walk it. But in the strip mall lifestyle bull-crap world, we get these horrible "centers" that make walking mostly something you can't do. If you're a supporter of walkability, then you should be a supporter of malls. I don't see people driving their car from one side of the mall to the other. Why? Because it's more convenient to walk that distance inside.

I feel like the malls are being killed off by the developers looking to make some cheap strip structures machine gunned around a map of the city so they can get their ROI back quicker. Just the type of developer I hate, the quick return instant gratificaationist with no ties to the city. If you don't build strip malls for people to go to, then they will still come to the stores in the mall.

Take Old Navy in Norman. There is no magically mystery to what would happen if it moved into a store in University Park. People would go to Old Navy there because that's where it is....say what? I know, shocking. If the store stays in the mall, guess what....they go to the mall. The store is what drives where the people go, not the structure. If you don't have the option of driving your car between each store, well guess what, you don't....you walk it. But in the strip mall lifestyle bull-crap world, we get these horrible "centers" that make walking mostly something you can't do. If you're a supporter of walkability, then you should be a supporter of malls. I don't see people driving their car from one side of the mall to the other. Why? Because it's more convenient to walk that distance inside.

I would the only issue I have with this is that I've been to a few really well done lifestyle centers and the amount of walking was no different than a mall. The biggest take away I think is that in a traditional mall, you are inside and don't realize how far you are really walking. Well done lifestyle centers that create an old style downtown of sorts with all the shops that you can easily walk between shouldn't be confused with the strip mall developments we have here. UNP for example isn't a lifestyle center, it is planned to have one in it, but it is not one as of right now.

I rest my case that the term "walkability" is its own worst enemy. It is too easy to misunderstand and misapply. The track around a football field at a rural high school is easy to walk around, too, but that doesn't make it walkable in the urban planning sense. A shopping mall surrounded by vast parking lots is just about the LAST thing that qualifies a community as "walkable."

Venture - if it's done right, you correct, it can be great. Unfortunately, we don't seem to operate that way in Oklahoma. All of our "centers" are very suburban and spread out. Every once in a while, you'll see a small portion that has some nice walkable areas, but they don't ever create the real walkable design like a true lifestyle center should have. If we had one, it would be nice.

urbanized - I probably didn't word that very well. I agree (to some extent) with what you're saying. My point was that at least with a traditional mall, walking from store to store is the desired mode of transit. Of course it would be even better from a walkability standpoint if we had a walkable district (if you're talking details of the term walkability). That's a whole other ballgame of discussion though....and design/living/etc. There's the easy access of the strip (which is one reason why they're building the crap because people are lazy and want it), but they bring inefficiencies like people driving from one store to the next. I was just commenting on getting people to use their legs and walk at a mall instead of driving. In conjunction with venture's comments - if our centers were designed properly, then even the strips would be walkable. It's just unfortunate that we don't have any of that. What we get instead is a bunch of disconnected developers that slap a quick structure in and do it for as little as possible regardless of the impact or without thought to traffic/walkability/etc. Heck, 19th st. in Moore is a great example of how you can get a random mix of a LOT of development but none of it ties together and can start to cause pains.

I rarely go to the mall or to the retail developments except if I need a targeted item. I do not have an opinion as to which is better. However, there are two factors that I think factor in. In Oklahoma, we have some weather extremes as far as biting cold and blistering hot. I would walk from one end of the mall to the other but would not walk from one store to another outside unless it was a mall set up like the outlet mall where they were all very close together and there was some protection from elements. The other factor is the lack of window fronts in the big outdoor stores. If the stores would put windowfronts in like you see in the bigger cities, then I think people would be more apt to walk down the sidewalk window shopping to get to the next store. (example would be the Gordmans next to the Kohls down in Moore. The stores are basically next to each other but I think most people drive from one to the other based on what I have seen when I have had to go there)

..... admits to shopping in Anchor A, stowing items in trunk and driving around to Anchor B more than once in my lifetime.

Given the scale of some enclosed malls (structure and parking wise), I'm surprised big retail partnerships haven't formed and started demanding cities raise taxes and build huge concrete structures that the discrete retail entities then lease and occupy, similar to how many stadiums and arenas are funded and built these days...

A New Life for Dead Malls ? The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/a-new-life-for-dead-malls/387001/)