Put me in the "excited about lots of little projects more than two or three big projects" category. Give me ten Plaza Districts for every Devon Tower. Love the urban infill -- even happening in my West OKC nabe. Love the critical mass of small investors buying and rehabbing old buildings. Love things like the Ambassador and Waffle Champion and places like Classen Ten Penn starting to improve. These are the kinds of things that are transforming our city before our eyes and radically improving the quality of life.

Put me in the "excited about lots of little projects more than two or three big projects" category. Give me ten Plaza Districts for every Devon Tower. Love the urban infill -- even happening in my West OKC nabe. Love the critical mass of small investors buying and rehabbing old buildings. Love things like the Ambassador and Waffle Champion and places like Classen Ten Penn starting to improve. These are the kinds of things that are transforming our city before our eyes and radically improving the quality of life.

My stance as well.

Well, like I said, put me in the group that likes bigger projects.

I think both are important. It's the big projects that attract positive attention and help change a city's image. The big projects really change the way a city feels. A city's skyline, like it or not, is its image. That is what OKC needs. Many people even living in OKC have no idea what the Edge @ Midtown is. People all across the country know about the Devon Tower.

These smaller, infill projects are simply correcting a problem that never should have existed in the first place - a problem created by I.M. Pei.

I don't think that was his point.

Until we get massive large-scale projects underway and under construction, it just doesn't seem growth is exploding here. There are quite a bit of smaller projects under construction and all together, they will greatly improve the city core as whole, and I understand that; it still doesn't change the fact of my main point about the larger projects.

It isn't pessimism or being a Debbie downer, it's something called the truth.

As someone from a larger city, you are probably use to developments on a much larger scale. Simply put, OKC will never have 4 stack interchanges, a 30+ gate airport, etc. it just won't happen here with the market size we have. Not to say you aren't entitled to your opinion, but you should adjust your expectations a bit.


Put me in the "excited about lots of little projects more than two or three big projects" category. Give me ten Plaza Districts for every Devon Tower. Love the urban infill -- even happening in my West OKC nabe. Love the critical mass of small investors buying and rehabbing old buildings. Love things like the Ambassador and Waffle Champion and places like Classen Ten Penn starting to improve. These are the kinds of things that are transforming our city before our eyes and radically improving the quality of life.

+1

I mean, we all love to gawk at corporate phalluses sticking up as we speed along the highway, but how much does that really improve the quality of life? At some point, some need to stop obsessing about what we look like to "outsiders" and travelers blasting through on I-35 and how much are we creating a liviable, vibrant community.

As someone from a larger city, you are probably use to developments on a much larger scale. Simply put, OKC will never have 4 stack interchanges, a 30+ gate airport, etc. it just won't happen here with the market size we have. Not to say you aren't entitled to your opinion, but you should adjust your expectations a bit.

4-stack interchanges could happen if ODOT would invest some money into the highway system. Cities smaller than OKC have more impressive highways/interchanges because they have state transportation departments that don't constantly cheap out on everything.


I mean, we all love to gawk at corporate phalluses sticking up as we speed along the highway, but how much does that really improve the quality of life? At some point, some need to stop obsessing about what we look like to "outsiders" and travelers blasting through on I-35 and how much are we creating a liviable, vibrant community.

It's not a matter of gawking at corporate phalluses or impressing people driving through on I-35. A city's skyline is its image. Skyscrapers are both a source of local pride and a booster for national image. A more filled out skyline will help boost the urban feel downtown and give the impression that this is a city where things are happening. People, specially out of state investors, are more likely to invest in a place that is perceived as "happening" and people are more likely to WANT to live in that kind of place. I am in no way saying things like Waffle Champion or the Rise aren't important - they are and they enhance quality of life. You can't underestimate however the impact that developments like the Devon Tower have.

As someone from a larger city, you are probably use to developments on a much larger scale. Simply put, OKC will never have 4 stack interchanges, a 30+ gate airport, etc. it just won't happen here with the market size we have. Not to say you aren't entitled to your opinion, but you should adjust your expectations.you completely right to a degree... But as far as the interchanges go.. Doesn't Albuquerque have a four stack?

This thread kind of sums up what people are talking about.

you completely right to a degree... But as far as the interchanges go.. Doesn't Albuquerque have a four stack?

Who The F cares about a "four stack?" Sounds like an order at I-Hop. Sorry, but highways do not improve the quality of life one iota.

Who The F cares about a "four stack?" Sounds like an order at I-Hop. Sorry, but highways do not improve the quality of life one iota.I care and it's an issue to me. It would also seem the majority of large employers care seeing as how most of them are bypassing OKC for Dallas and OKC is cheaper. Our highways and roads suck.. Plain and simple. It isn't the only factor , it I assure you, having a nice road and freeway system is looked at by. Ajar employers.

I think both are important. It's the big projects that attract positive attention and help change a city's image. The big projects really change the way a city feels. A city's skyline, like it or not, is its image. That is what OKC needs. Many people even living in OKC have no idea what the Edge @ Midtown is. People all across the country know about the Devon Tower.

These smaller, infill projects are simply correcting a problem that never should have existed in the first place - a problem created by I.M. Pei.

Can we stop passing along this myth? That the city didn't follow through on the Pei Plan and left empty lots is not the fault of I.M. Pei, one of the greatest architects in the world.

I care and it's an issue to me. It would also seem the majority of large employers care seeing as how most of them are bypassing OKC for Dallas and OKC is cheaper. Our highways and roads suck.. Plain and simple. It isn't the only factor , it I assure you, having a nice road and freeway system is looked at by. Ajar employers.

+1. Transportation is important, both the highway system and the airport. OKC's roads suck in general, not just the highways.

+1. Transportation is important, both the highway system and the airport. OKC's roads suck in general, not just the highways.

Based on EVERYTHING you post on here, Oklahoma City must be the asshole of the world. If the world were given an enema, OKC is where it goes in.

I care and it's an issue to me. It would also seem the majority of large employers care seeing as how most of them are bypassing OKC for Dallas and OKC is cheaper. Our highways and roads suck.. Plain and simple. It isn't the only factor , it I assure you, having a nice road and freeway system is looked at by. Ajar employers.

There will be a couple of flyovers at I-44 & 235 and I-240 & 35. They are not needed anywhere else in our fair city, and it would be an un-necessary expense to build them. Folks would really be pissed at ODOT for squandering money. Some of the best traffic movers are these new single point interchanges that have been built. Go drive over I-40 on Morgan or I-35 and Main in Norman. We are getting our bang for the buck on those.

+1. Transportation is important, both the highway system and the airport. OKC's roads suck in general, not just the highways.

I just drove around downtown Tulsa this past Monday and some of those streets are extremely bad. Try Detroit Ave off the IDL.....not sure if there's a worse street in the state.

Yet we still manage to give massive tax breaks to oil and gas companies allowing them to pay a fraction of the taxes you and I do...Instead of rebuilding roads and investing in our schools.

I disagree. there is a lot of good word of mouth about OKC, every person who visits us has nothing but great things to day and they are first to tell others about it. I would say we have had a drastic increase in the amount of out of state friends coming to visit rather than us visiting them in the past 5 years or so. maybe I travel in less sadistic negative circles but most people I encounter love the city and are excited about its growth and change.

How many visitors are leaving and returning to live in OKC, how many natives are leaving? I visited and my wife (from Indiana) and I decided to retire here and my story is not the exception, but the rule. OKC needs to improve a lot more. You've read about Raleigh's growth, enough said. Raleigh's DT is not as big as OKC, but the ATTITUDE is very different. Take a look at the what can we do to improve OKC thread, much truth can be found in those posts. How many say they are looking to leave OKC

I care and it's an issue to me. It would also seem the majority of large employers care seeing as how most of them are bypassing OKC for Dallas and OKC is cheaper. Our highways and roads suck.. Plain and simple. It isn't the only factor , it I assure you, having a nice road and freeway system is looked at by. Ajar employers.

But companies passing up OKC For Dallas isn't because of interchanges. It's a variety of reasons including quality of life, amenities, infrastructure, state business climate, etc.

I just want to add a 'that's what she said' in regards to the thread title. Okay. I'm done. Carry on.

A friend of mine that lives in Manhattan just left OKC after visiting for the first time in 12 years.
I was able to talk him into visiting again, but prior to his visit he was making all the usual OK stereotype jokes. I played along because he is a lifetime New Yorker but he does travel quite a bit only to large cities like Chicago, Boston, LA, San Francisco, etc.

Anyway long story short, he was blown away with Okc. We spent our time in downtown, midtown, bricktown, plaza, paseo, boat district, auto alley, and N.Western areas. After the second day he called his NY friends and girlfriend telling them they need to visit here, even offered to fly his girlfriend out the next day. I was a little shocked with how much he was excited about this city, especially because he is not easily impressed and again he is a stereotype New Yorker, picture a young Joe Pesci wise cracks and all.

People should really stop offering their opinions as facts. Just because you feel like OKC is lacking doesn't mean that's reality. I moved here from Austin 8 years ago. I was a 24 year old, gay, democrat and fell in love with this place. I had no problem meeting people and have a tight knit circle of friends - most of whom are also transplants and also love it here, btw. I have 2 very good friends from San Francisco that visited me several times over the past few years and fell in love as well. Both just bought houses and will be living here by the end of this month. Everyone else that visits me has nothing but great things to say about the city. Maybe the problem with OKC isn't OKC, maybe it's just you. If you go into a situation expecting disappointment, that's probably what you're going to get.

The developments that are happening in OKC right are giving OKC great urban fabric and THAT is what make a city feel urban. There are tons of cities bigger than OKC all over the US with better skylines but once you get into downtown, they feel more like NW Expressway.

/rant

The one thing that I think has changed the most in the 20+ years since I moved away is that the City is big and diverse enough now to suit almost anybody.

Yes, certain types are still in the majority but if you don't like soccer moms and Escalade-driving suburbanites (or whatever group happens to annoy you) then it's pretty darn easy to just avoid them altogether.

When I was there last year, I was talking to a handful of very liberal people over beers at Skinny Slim's; I know at least two were affirmed atheists. I asked them point blank how they felt living in a city where most people were the polar opposite in many ways... And all of them said the same thing: It's easy to steer clear and just surround yourself with the like-minded.

OKC is never going to be New York or L.A. or even Austin or Denver. But it has elements of all those places and you can either choose to focus on that, or waste a lot of energy hoping the place suddenly and magically morphs into Seattle.

Can we stop passing along this myth? That the city didn't follow through on the Pei Plan and left empty lots is not the fault of I.M. Pei, one of the greatest architects in the world.

If people think the holes in the urban fabric caused by the demo stage of the Pei Plan are bad, we dodge a huge bullet by not building his 'towers in the park' developments - although we are still stuck with a large amount of super-blocks. Pei might have been a so-so architect (he designed a lot of really ugly stuff), but he was really really bad at urban planning.

*Like* NWOKCGuy and Pete's posts. Well said.

Based on EVERYTHING you post on here, Oklahoma City must be the asshole of the world. If the world were given an enema, OKC is where it goes in.

lol

If OKC does everything in the borders of NW 13th/Classen/River/I-235 correctly, and if we figure out adequate public transportation, we can compete with almost any Tier II city in the world.

If people think the holes in the urban fabric caused by the demo stage of the Pei Plan are bad, we dodge a huge bullet by not building his 'towers in the park' developments - although we are still stuck with a large amount of super-blocks. Pei might have been a so-so architect (he designed a lot of really ugly stuff), but he was really really bad at urban planning.

Pei was a man of his time. What he designed was cutting edge for the days in which he was tops. The John F. Kennedy Library in Boston, Bank of China Tower in Hong Kong, The Denver Mile High back in the '50s, the Myerson Symphony Hall in Dallas, Guggenheim Pavilion at Cedars Sinai, The NY Four Seasons, The Grand Louvre in Paris, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, The Chase Tower in Houston, (okay, I hate the Dallas City Hall) . I would disagree he was a "so-so" architect. He won the Pritzker in the late '60s or early '70s and you don't do that without being one of the best. I think one his last great projects was the Modern Art museum in Luxembourg. At 97, he still is a consultant. A brilliant man.

It's easy to look at all of the "park" designs and criticize in retrospect from 2014, but at the time, that was the thing that cities wanted. He designed them and designed them well.

I hate it that because his "Pei Plan" in Oklahoma City to revitalize downtown was barely realized, OKC destroyed buildings for the next phase and then our "leaders" got cold feet about luring retail downtown. That's not Pei's fault. The leaders who chose to let it stagnate to death is where the vitriol should be. Who knows what might have happened? I know Oklahoma City would have had one of the first truly high-end regional malls in the country - and downtown! We don't know - as cities are always in transition, alive - what might have happened. But one thing I DO know is you can't blame Mr. Pei. It's not right.

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

That's why you stay out of the Beyond section of Bed, Bath and Beyond. Never open that door.

These smaller, infill projects are simply correcting a problem that never should have existed in the first place - a problem created by I.M. Pei.

Actually most of the smaller infill projects are not in any areas that the Pei Plan had any affect on.

If people think the holes in the urban fabric caused by the demo stage of the Pei Plan are bad, we dodge a huge bullet by not building his 'towers in the park' developments - although we are still stuck with a large amount of super-blocks. Pei might have been a so-so architect (he designed a lot of really ugly stuff), but he was really really bad at urban planning.

He is still alive, you know.

How many visitors are leaving and returning to live in OKC, how many natives are leaving? I visited and my wife (from Indiana) and I decided to retire here and my story is not the exception, but the rule. OKC needs to improve a lot more. You've read about Raleigh's growth, enough said. Raleigh's DT is not as big as OKC, but the ATTITUDE is very different. Take a look at the what can we do to improve OKC thread, much truth can be found in those posts. How many say they are looking to leave OKC

Exactly. Just look at OKCTalk.

This city's biggest cheerleaders on this board are living elsewhere, some having moved very recently and by choice. There are a few more posters that I know are planning to leave soon, and these are positive people, not debbie downers. I know people have different reasons for living where they do, but if OKC is really a city that has "arrived," why are OKCTalk's young, educated cheerleaders leaving by choice for places like Seattle, Denver, Austin, etc? It's easy to admire the progress in OKC and look at it through rose colored glasses when you live in some higher tiered city that already has all the amenities that OKC can possibly get within the next 10-15 years and you don't have to deal with the frustrating things about living here.

How can OKC become a city where people WANT to live in even when presented with other options? It's a real problem that so many people, even those who are happy with the direction that OKC is going, still want to leave for greener pastures. That means, despite all the progress, there is something that OKC is still doing wrong.

As for the attitude you speak of, the only way that is going to change is to have a big transplant boom like Raleigh and Charlotte have seen.

People should really stop offering their opinions as facts. Just because you feel like OKC is lacking doesn't mean that's reality. I moved here from Austin 8 years ago. I was a 24 year old, gay, democrat and fell in love with this place. I had no problem meeting people and have a tight knit circle of friends - most of whom are also transplants and also love it here, btw. I have 2 very good friends from San Francisco that visited me several times over the past few years and fell in love as well. Both just bought houses and will be living here by the end of this month. Everyone else that visits me has nothing but great things to say about the city. Maybe the problem with OKC isn't OKC, maybe it's just you. If you go into a situation expecting disappointment, that's probably what you're going to get.

The developments that are happening in OKC right are giving OKC great urban fabric and THAT is what make a city feel urban. There are tons of cities bigger than OKC all over the US with better skylines but once you get into downtown, they feel more like NW Expressway.

/rant

Thanks for posting this. It's always great to here stories like this.

There will be a couple of flyovers at I-44 & 235 and I-240 & 35. They are not needed anywhere else in our fair city, and it would be an un-necessary expense to build them. Folks would really be pissed at ODOT for squandering money. Some of the best traffic movers are these new single point interchanges that have been built. Go drive over I-40 on Morgan or I-35 and Main in Norman. We are getting our bang for the buck on those.The single point interchanges are cool, but not for service roads. I agree with you, for where they are being used, they are nice.

I would make I44/235 a 4 stack and I35/240 a five stack. A five stack requires HOV lanes and that is where it would come from.

I just drove around downtown Tulsa this past Monday and some of those streets are extremely bad. Try Detroit Ave off the IDL.....not sure if there's a worse street in the state.Tulsa is a horrible city in general, so it doesn't really count, in my book at least. If you want horrible roads, as has already been said on here, I'm not sure if any city beats Denton, which is north of Dallas.

OKC really needs to improve its roads though. I know so many people that have extremely high-end exotic cars and keep them in other cities due to this fact.

How many visitors are leaving and returning to live in OKC, how many natives are leaving? I visited and my wife (from Indiana) and I decided to retire here and my story is not the exception, but the rule. OKC needs to improve a lot more. You've read about Raleigh's growth, enough said. Raleigh's DT is not as big as OKC, but the ATTITUDE is very different. Take a look at the what can we do to improve OKC thread, much truth can be found in those posts. How many say they are looking to leave OKCTHANK YOU! Some people just can't handle the truth and spin it off as being negative, when in actuality, you care about your city, you just have to show some hard loving.

But companies passing up OKC For Dallas isn't because of interchanges. It's a variety of reasons including quality of life, amenities, infrastructure, state business climate, etc.I know for a fact you are wrong. There are so many factors in play, but I swear to it on my life, I know of various companies that have bypassed OKC for two things.... airport and our highway/road network. Both are undesirable and are lacking big time.

I love my city and I will go to back for it any day of the week. I have spent countless hours defending it... however, when it comes to transit, we truly do a horrible job with it.

First and foremost, we need to improve all of our interchanges... this doesn't include these crappy half-ass cloverleaf hybrid interchanges, it is time to get with the times and become modern with our highways

2nd- commuter and light-rail

our roads are awful. We need more 6 lane arterial streets... at the very least, medians and turn lanes are badly needed

Our air service has to be expanded. I know it has been said time and time again, a hub is as likely as NASA building a new spaceport here, but surely we can find a way to expand our service somehow.

OKC needs new highway loops and expansions.... but for now, we need to fix our interchanges first and establish commuter rail. Those two things are very important, imo.

OKC is never going to be New York or L.A. or even Austin or Denver. But it has elements of all those places and you can either choose to focus on that, or waste a lot of energy hoping the place suddenly and magically morphs into Seattle.There are a lot of negatives with those cities you posted as well. I'm not trying to point out the negatives and bash the city, I'm trying to point them out and address them by coming up with solutions to overcome them. There is always room for improvement.

Pete, I'm moving to L.A. this March for a school I will be attending, and I have been meaning to post a thread about that, but when I move, I will be a huge cheerleader for OKC. I did the same thing in Dallas. I always told people how wonderful the city is and would promote it in any way I could.

Exactly. Just look at OKCTalk.

This city's biggest cheerleaders on this board are living elsewhere, some having moved very recently and by choice. There are a few more posters that I know are planning to leave soon, and these are positive people, not debbie downers. I know people have different reasons for living where they do, but if OKC is really a city that has "arrived," why are OKCTalk's young, educated cheerleaders leaving by choice for places like Seattle, Denver, Austin, etc? It's easy to admire the progress in OKC and look at it through rose colored glasses when you live in some higher tiered city that already has all the amenities that OKC can possibly get within the next 10-15 years and you don't have to deal with the frustrating things about living here.

How can OKC become a city where people WANT to live in even when presented with other options? It's a real problem that so many people, even those who are happy with the direction that OKC is going, still want to leave for greener pastures. That means, despite all the progress, there is something that OKC is still doing wrong.

As for the attitude you speak of, the only way that is going to change is to have a big transplant boom like Raleigh and Charlotte have seen.

To be sure, several of those people you talk about have ties to other parts of the country. It's not so easy as to say "OKC doesn't match up, that's why people are leaving". In reality, places may have more of the "amenities" that are "standard" for the city OKC wants to become, but in reality, a lot of those things are not the determining factors as to why one person lives in one place or another. Sometimes it's unique job opportunities that are only in certain markets, sometimes it's a family decision, sometimes…get this…people just want to see more of the world at some point in their lives.

There are already a decent amount of transplants heading into the area along with higher rates of retention, and it's worth noting that the growth OKC has experienced to this point has preceded Maps III and the huge amount of private investment in the Urban Core.

Edmond and Norman are 2 very strong suburbs that any city in the nation would be glad to have that will continue to serve the Metro area very well.

OKC's economy is as strong and diverse as it has ever been in its history, and though there is more work to do in that area, there has been and continues to be discernible progress.

OKC is for really the first time in its history, finding things that bring national attention. On a smaller scale, having something like the SkyDance Bridge on I-40 gives people making a cross-country journey something to remember the city by. On a medium scale, you have something like the OK River. It already hosts major regional/national rowing tournaments, and is really only in its infancy in terms of development, things to do, and overall excitement about the district…and it's not so far away from housing a US Olympic facility. On a large scale, OKC has the Thunder.

All these things contribute to a city that is well on its way to becoming an upper Tier-III city…but the changes don't happen overnight. And yet…as behind as we are as a city, somehow we've managed to be one of the fastest growing in the US…In that way, I don't understand the complaining. In 5 years when Maps III is almost done, all the new housing downtown, and an overall better developed city vis-a-vis the previous 25 years…OKC is going to be sitting quite pretty with very strong growth numbers.

Edmond and Norman are 2 very strong suburbs that any city in the nation would be glad to have that will continue to serve the Metro area very well.
Guthrie and MWC are great assets as well. Even though Guthrie is a ways from the core, is could turn out to be a fairly significant tourist attraction and grow from itself becoming a valuable asset. Yukon is also growing at a fast rate, so we could see Yukon becoming a major suburb for the OKC Metro. Of course, MWC can become great to, they just need some major TLC.

Exactly. Just look at OKCTalk.

This city's biggest cheerleaders on this board are living elsewhere, some having moved very recently and by choice. There are a few more posters that I know are planning to leave soon, and these are positive people, not debbie downers. I know people have different reasons for living where they do, but if OKC is really a city that has "arrived," why are OKCTalk's young, educated cheerleaders leaving by choice for places like Seattle, Denver, Austin, etc? It's easy to admire the progress in OKC and look at it through rose colored glasses when you live in some higher tiered city that already has all the amenities that OKC can possibly get within the next 10-15 years and you don't have to deal with the frustrating things about living here.

How can OKC become a city where people WANT to live in even when presented with other options? It's a real problem that so many people, even those who are happy with the direction that OKC is going, still want to leave for greener pastures. That means, despite all the progress, there is something that OKC is still doing wrong.

As for the attitude you speak of, the only way that is going to change is to have a big transplant boom like Raleigh and Charlotte have seen.

Terrible logic here. I am assuming you are referring to me as one of the people who have moved. I didn't move because I don't like OKC, I moved because I had an excellent opportunity in another city. It happens, its called life. Americans are mobile...nobody lives in the same town forever. I know several people who are making plans to leave Dallas. Does that mean DFW is in trouble? Why did you leave Charlotte?

You assume that since people on a message board are moving than that means everyone else is leaving and they are doing so because this place is a dump. No offense, but you love to use these logical fallacies and I find them to be infuriating, frankly. OKC is growing and has ranked in the top 10-12 big metros in terms of growth for some time now. Not a top 5 "boomtown" that people on here love to reference, but healthy above average growth with strong domestic in-migration a/k/a people moving in from other parts of the country. You can look at the data here (http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/pop/popm/cbsa36420.asp).

One major problem I see with OKC is that its citizens are sedentary and poorly traveled. Moving and traveling doesn't necessarily change *where* you want to live, but rather *how* you want to live. So what happens is you have a bunch of people complain about the city without knowing what it is they actually want, or, think they want to change, resulting in a massive segment of the population who are not contributing to making OKC a better place (if not making it a worse place), if for no other reason than because they don't know what a better place actually is.

A can-do attitude goes a long way to actually making progress as a city. If these people think that getting out of the city is going to somehow open up all sorts of new doors (obviously notwithstanding very distinct opportunities in certain fields that OKC simply doesn't have), they're sorely mistaken. 15 years ago…sure, maybe…in 2014, not even close.

If you want to learn how to speak Turkish, or you want to sing on Broadway, etc. the city ought not be faulted in any way or seen as a lesser than city because those opportunities don't exist here. But the average person I've met and talked to doesn't seem to have those very distinct ambitions that would preclude OKC from being a perfectly fine destination to live.

I know for a fact you are wrong. There are so many factors in play, but I swear to it on my life, I know of various companies that have bypassed OKC for two things.... airport and our highway/road network. Both are undesirable and are lacking big time.

Prove it. Where has any company stated they bypassed OKC because of our highways? Or were you sitting in on their board meetings where they discussed relocation?

Terrible logic here. I am assuming you are referring to me as one of the people who have moved. I didn't move because I don't like OKC, I moved because I had an excellent opportunity in another city. It happens, its called life. Americans are mobile...nobody lives in the same town forever. I know several people who are making plans to leave Dallas. Does that mean DFW is in trouble? Why did you leave Charlotte?

You assume that since people on a message board are moving than that means everyone else is leaving and they are doing so because this place is a dump. No offense, but you love to use these logical fallacies and I find them to be infuriating, frankly. OKC is growing and has ranked in the top 10-12 big metros in terms of growth for some time now. Not a top 5 "boomtown" that people on here love to reference, but healthy above average growth with strong domestic in-migration a/k/a people moving in from other parts of the country. You can look at the data here (http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/pop/popm/cbsa36420.asp).

Don't let facts get in the way of their opinion. :)

You know, for every one of these "big" teaser things, we do actually get a few in0-fill projects, which actually excite me even more. You can't get a Devon Tower every other block, but if you can put one of those in and then get a few smaller projects (or even better, renovate something that's been sitting), then that's even better. There were a few exciting things that i really wish could have happened, like Cotton Exchange, but instead we get some crappy things like Centennial. But as much as i hate the way the Centennial is built, at least it's been able to be a successful mixed-use structure. We didn't get a 30 floor hotel, but we did at least get a few brick-faced hotels that are WAY better than what COULD have been put in (regardless of how much you might dislike them). So as unexciting as some things are, be thankful that they aren't 100% suburban stucco.

He is still alive, you know.

Yes, they are waiting until he dies so they can rebuild Boston City Hall and Plaza (which won an award btw) without offending him.

How many visitors are leaving and returning to live in OKC, how many natives are leaving? I visited and my wife (from Indiana) and I decided to retire here and my story is not the exception, but the rule. OKC needs to improve a lot more. You've read about Raleigh's growth, enough said. Raleigh's DT is not as big as OKC, but the ATTITUDE is very different. Take a look at the what can we do to improve OKC thread, much truth can be found in those posts. How many say they are looking to leave OKC

we will simply have to agree to disagree. yes Raleigh has had a huge population growth. OKC also is growing. Perhaps I don't surround myself with the negative people which is just how I roll. but within my close circle are people from Atlanta, LA, San Diego and Seattle who have chose to move to OKC. there is a lot of Great attitude in OKC I see it all the time. A handful of negative folks don't affect my decisions. as I stated before many of those people will move and be just as miserable because that is how they live.

that being said back to the topic

Over the last several years, Oklahoma has been experiencing positive migration from every single state, and that trend is accelerating.

As recently as five years ago, more people were moving to Texas (and a few other states) than moving to OK from them; but that trend has completely reversed and picking up strong steam in the other direction.


People in the U.S. are very mobile -- they are going to move. But stats show many more are moving to Oklahoma than away from it.

And as OKC is the biggest population center and the place that is growing much faster than anywhere else in the state, I'm sure if you could break down the numbers just for the city they wold show very, very strong moves in one direction.


As mentioned, this trend is accelerating. With the extremely low unemployment rate and very strong growth in jobs, you can bet in five years all these indicators will even be much more favorable.

Terrible logic here. I am assuming you are referring to me as one of the people who have moved. I didn't move because I don't like OKC, I moved because I had an excellent opportunity in another city. It happens, its called life. Americans are mobile...nobody lives in the same town forever. I know several people who are making plans to leave Dallas. Does that mean DFW is in trouble? Why did you leave Charlotte?

I actually was NOT referring to you. You didn't so much leave because you wanted to but because you had to for your career and to get away from a bad job situation here. Very similar to why I left Charlotte actually.

Exactly. Just look at OKCTalk.

This city's biggest cheerleaders on this board are living elsewhere, some having moved very recently and by choice. There are a few more posters that I know are planning to leave soon, and these are positive people, not debbie downers. I know people have different reasons for living where they do, but if OKC is really a city that has "arrived," why are OKCTalk's young, educated cheerleaders leaving by choice for places like Seattle, Denver, Austin, etc? It's easy to admire the progress in OKC and look at it through rose colored glasses when you live in some higher tiered city that already has all the amenities that OKC can possibly get within the next 10-15 years and you don't have to deal with the frustrating things about living here.

How can OKC become a city where people WANT to live in even when presented with other options? It's a real problem that so many people, even those who are happy with the direction that OKC is going, still want to leave for greener pastures. That means, despite all the progress, there is something that OKC is still doing wrong.

As for the attitude you speak of, the only way that is going to change is to have a big transplant boom like Raleigh and Charlotte have seen.



Kudos, You got it:wink:

^

Actually, all that's already been proven to be completely false.

But I know you guys have no interest in facts, especially when they contradict what you prefer to believe.

But companies passing up OKC For Dallas isn't because of interchanges. It's a variety of reasons including quality of life, amenities, infrastructure, state business climate, etc.

And a sizeable slush fund.....

Exactly. Just look at OKCTalk.

This city's biggest cheerleaders on this board are living elsewhere, some having moved very recently and by choice. There are a few more posters that I know are planning to leave soon, and these are positive people, not debbie downers. I know people have different reasons for living where they do, but if OKC is really a city that has "arrived," why are OKCTalk's young, educated cheerleaders leaving by choice for places like Seattle, Denver, Austin, etc? It's easy to admire the progress in OKC and look at it through rose colored glasses when you live in some higher tiered city that already has all the amenities that OKC can possibly get within the next 10-15 years and you don't have to deal with the frustrating things about living here.

How can OKC become a city where people WANT to live in even when presented with other options? It's a real problem that so many people, even those who are happy with the direction that OKC is going, still want to leave for greener pastures. That means, despite all the progress, there is something that OKC is still doing wrong.

As for the attitude you speak of, the only way that is going to change is to have a big transplant boom like Raleigh and Charlotte have seen.

This is dumb. Most of the people that participate in this forum that have left OKC have done so primarily because of great job offers in other cities. Also, there is nothing wrong with people, who have lived here there whole lives, moving to other cities to try something different.

Also, I can see why you mentioned Austin, but using Denver and Seattle as examples of destinations is pretty weak. Denver and Seattle both have advantages that OKC as well as Dallas, and Austin will never have. If I chose to move to Denver, which I've considered, I would do so because of proximity to the mountains and the cooler summers. Aside from adding a white water rafting facility, those are advantages that OKC and other southern/midwestern cities can't compete with. It would have nothing to do with city amenities or my feelings about OKC as I can do most of what I would do in Denver in OKC. Seattle has the Pacific Ocean, is cooler (temperature wise), and is close to the mountains. Again, OKC can't compete with that if those are the amenities you seek.

I'm an educated cheerleader and I still live here....with no plans to leave either, and I travel all over the world, a lot.

This is dumb. Most of the people that participate in this forum that have left OKC have done so primarily because of great job offers in other cities. Also, there is nothing wrong with people, who have lived here there whole lives, moving to other cities to try something different.

Absolutely. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it and can more than understand why somebody would want to leave, especially if they've lived here their entire lives. I am just pointing out that actions do speak louder than words.

Absolutely. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it and can more than understand why somebody would want to leave, especially if they've lived here their entire lives. I am just pointing out that actions do speak louder than words.

If I left for that reason, which again, I've considered, it would have nothing to do with lack of development here, lack of ammenities, or my feelings for OKC. It would have everything to do with wanting to change it up for awhile, so I'm not sure actions mean anything in that case or others where people on this board have moved.

How many visitors are leaving and returning to live in OKC, how many natives are leaving? I visited and my wife (from Indiana) and I decided to retire here and my story is not the exception, but the rule. OKC needs to improve a lot more. You've read about Raleigh's growth, enough said. Raleigh's DT is not as big as OKC, but the ATTITUDE is very different. Take a look at the what can we do to improve OKC thread, much truth can be found in those posts. How many say they are looking to leave OKC
A friend of mine just related to me how a friend of his who used to live in Boston started coming to OKC on business. At first he almost dreaded coming here. But after a few trips he made an observation that, for him, it is easier to develop "community" with other people here than it is in Boston. He has subsequently moved here.

... If I chose to move to Denver, which I've considered, I would do so because of proximity to the mountains and the cooler summers.
I guess I would have to disagree with this as a reason to move to Denver. Denver, itself, gets almost as hot as OKC in the summer. I had to go there for business last summer and it was 105, and had been that way for a week they said. One of my friends just got back from Denver last week and said it was in the 90's.

Seattle has the Pacific Ocean, is cooler (temperature wise), and is close to the mountains. Again, OKC can't compete with that if those are the amenities you seek.
Can't argue with that one, though

I guess I would have to disagree with this as a reason to move to Denver. Denver, itself, gets almost as hot as OKC in the summer. I had to go there for business last summer and it was 105, and had been that way for a week they said. One of my friends just got back from Denver last week and said it was in the 90's.

Can't argue with that one, though

Yeah I really meant cooler summers in the mountains, but it is a drier heat in Denver than it usually is here which doesn't feel quite as oppressive when it does get that hot. It also takes longer to get up to those 100 + degree temps and they generally don't last as long.


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Absolutely. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it and can more than understand why somebody would want to leave, especially if they've lived here their entire lives. I am just pointing out that actions do speak louder than words.

But there's nothing about those actions that reflect on Oklahoma City. I'm sure sometimes there is a need to leave because somebody just flat out doesn't like it here, but that's not the case with many posting here at this forum. People leave great cities every day, people leave Charlotte, people leave San Diego, Austin, every city. Sometimes it's called a fresh start and requires a life reset. It's no reflection on the city they feel the need to leave; it's an inner, emotional, very personal decision based on things that have nothing to do with geography.