View Full Version : Please read: Why I am hard on OKC



bchris02
05-20-2014, 08:30 PM
Most people on this forum hate my posts and wish I would just stop posting here. Quite frankly I don't blame them as sometimes they can be over the top negative (I do post positive posts but most people don't seem to notice them). I sincerely apologize for having offended the people of this great city by my negative posts. Let me explain though why I post the way I do.

First of all, I don't, in reality, hate living here as bad as you would think from reading my posts. The angst I have about living here isn't entirely the fault of the city or any inferiority it may have to somewhere like Charlotte. Living in a small/midsized city compared to a large one of course has sacrifices, but day to day life somewhere like OKC isn't that much different. Urban areas in this region of the country (the Southeast + Texas + Oklahoma) are pretty much all designed and laid out similar and have similar offerings, some on a larger or smaller scale.

I have roots in OKC way back and I want to see it succeed. Sometimes I am not patient enough. I am used to how fast things moved in Charlotte or look at what's happening in Dallas or Austin and wish that for OKC, but I realize that in most places things don't happen that fast. I get discouraged when there is a setback or when a big project that has been teased about dies, such as Steve's mixed-use development that would make Dallas or Kansas City jealous. I get discouraged when a Stage Center Tower that was supposed to be 30 stories, then 20, gets revealed to be only 14 stories. Things are happening here though. Things have improved drastically here over the past 10-15 years and if the national economy holds up its likely just the beginning. It's amazing the life that the Thunder has brought to downtown. There are many times when things such as the arts festival are going downtown that I think to myself "this place is actually pretty cool."

OKC even has things that are better than Charlotte. First, downtown OKC feels a lot more dense and built up than Charlotte does at street level. Though pedestrian activity in the CBD has a ways to go, I have had numerous friends from Charlotte ask me if OKC was bigger than Charlotte when touring them through the CBD. Though they have been doing a ton of infill in the past few years, when I lived in Charlotte there was far too much surface parking right in the CBD. OKC, specifically Bricktown, feels larger and more active if you hit it the right night than the smaller mixed-use developments in Charlotte such as the Epicentre and the NC Music Factory. For all the criticism I give Lower Bricktown, it really feels the most "Charlotte", being that its Disneyfied and lacks character. The Paseo is a real jewel that I think doesn't always get the attention it deserves. Though it still has a ways to go, I love what is happening in Midtown/Auto Alley and think within the next five years, it will be an amazing place and a focal point of OKC's young professional life (if its not already). Speaking of Auto Alley, it's another jewel and Charlotte doesn't have anything that compares.

As far as day to day life in the city, the only things I drastically miss about Charlotte are nice grocery stores (along with liberal liquor laws) and the citywide urban beautification, an area OKC really needs to work on. I sometimes miss the retail but its not like I spent a lot of money at Neiman Marcus anyways.

My negativity stems from two things. First, I didn't want to leave Charlotte but had to because of my job situation so I had a negative attitude straight out of the box. My family is in rural eastern Oklahoma so I stayed with them while job hunting. Secondly, I have had a difficult time finding my niche in OKC. I am late 20s, single, and asexual. I also have social anxiety and I could care less about sports or country music (a common interest for most Okies). The culture here being overwhelmingly centered on family, sports, getting married young, and settling down has made it difficult to relate to a lot of people in my age group here. I am sure that's simply where I've been hanging out but I didn't have near this kind of trouble when I lived in Charlotte. Because of this, there are some days that get mindnumbingly lonely and I really feel like I would leave OKC if I could. However, when I really think about it I would rather not go through the hassle. I would like to find my niche here and be happy here if it's possible.

Lastly, whenever I see what is called "blind boosterism," sometimes its hard for me to resist posting a refute for it and many times people interpret that as me slamming OKC. I will try to be kinder when I do that and once again, I apologize for the offense that I've caused.

Anyways, I hope what I've posted here explains things from my perspective and why I post the way I do. I will do better going forward to try to be more positive and tone down the negativity.

wunderkind
05-20-2014, 08:50 PM
I understand what you're saying about the feel of various cities, including OKC, and I've also read a number of your posts.
It can be hard to meet people, but I'm curious, what are your interests? Like, what do you do for fun and recreation?
Oklahoma can seem really family-focused at times, but theres lots of other stuff going on...

ljbab728
05-20-2014, 09:03 PM
Thank you for your thoughts. I am one who often disagrees with you but it's not a bad thing to have someone to point out our warts constructively. It helps those of us who love it here remember why we do and what we need to keep doing to make it better.

PennyQuilts
05-20-2014, 09:23 PM
Honestly, not to be contrary but I haven't interpreted your posts as all that negative. You're just in transition and I think any fair minded person would get that. You wrote a lovely post and sound like a lovely person. I wonder if you might enjoy doing some nature related things - you have jumped right in on the weather and nature related activities can be fun for people a bit solitary by personality. Some of our younger set at your point in life might have some suggestions. I sincerely hope you find your feet. About all I can say about your frustrations in OKC's development is that I'm willing to bet most cities have experienced the same sort of thing. The difference is in timing and instead of being the recipient of the work of others, you will be able to say you experienced OKC's growing pains. Bet you'll be proud you knew her when, some day.

Wish you well and am glad you're in OKC and on OKCtalk. Again, you seem like a nice person.

Celebrator
05-20-2014, 09:29 PM
Thank you, but I will say again what I just said very recently in a post. Don't let so much fear and pessimism into your thinking. Your only true home is your own thinking. When you come to that realization, you can work out any problem.

.

Tigerguy
05-20-2014, 09:29 PM
A few things for everybody to remember:

There are a lot of people with a lot of personalities posting here. Further, all of the people have different thought processes and perspectives. It's like having a bunch of temperamental cats in close proximity. This being the internet, there will be times when the claws come out and the fur flies, sometimes for no good reason. We often forget that etiquette is a two-way street...

I, like you, want to see good things for this city. I, like you, don't like to see things get downsized or negatively changed. The fact is, though, changes can happen. For all of the plans that are bandied about, it's not final until the concrete is poured. If we can accept that changes may be a part of the process instead of getting stuck on what was planned or our pie-in-the-sky visions, the forums may get a bit more boring, but there will also be a lot less stress and (maybe) many fewer silly posts. (This isn't to say that all complaints are without merit. This is to say that we need to chill and think about what we want to post. Sometimes such things are better left untyped.)

Something for you:

What do you enjoy? You don't have to answer that here, but if it's possible, have a good time doing something you like every so often. I know I've got a situation or two that I wish was different, but when I'm in my happy place, it feels good--and it carries over into what I do next. A happiness boost here and there is definitely a good thing. As the city evolves, you may yet find your niche. If not, just try to have a good time until you find the place where your niche truly is.

To almost close, here's a Taoist parable that I think speaks to some of discord we encounter 'round these parts: Taoist story - Who knows what is good and what is bad? (http://www.movebeyond.net/know-no-limits/who-knows-what-is-good-and-what-is-bad/)

To actually close, I'm not a big fan of country music, either, so you have at least one kindred spirit. :)

TAlan CB
05-20-2014, 09:48 PM
I know what you mean about beautification. I lived in Raleigh for 7 years and use to think Charlotte was a little ' run down', only to realize that Durham was about the same. Generally speaking OKC is a 'pit' compared to eastern cities (I now live in the Atlanta area), but compared to what it was 10 years ago, it has made vast improvements. But, it has not been universal. Some areas of OKC use to be quite nice and well-maintained and have now become run down. Most OKies are still stuck in the urban sprawl mind set - the neighbors have stop cutting the grass so it is time to move to a 'new neighborhood'. But far worst than the landscaping is the political environment. Though always a little on the conservative side (nothing wrong with that) Oklahoma has become Tea Party central, and conservative has become intolerance. Timmothy McVeigh set off a bomb (and I was near by) - and in the end he won, Oklahoma has become, politically speaking, the toxic place he wanted. It is no longer the land of diversity and amused acceptance - but of ignorant hate speech, and 'my way or no way' I miss Oklahoma more than most will ever realize ....but it is impossible to go home.

ljbab728
05-20-2014, 09:55 PM
Timmothy McVeigh set off a bomb (and I was near by) - and in the end he won, Oklahoma has become, politically speaking, the toxic place he wanted.

HUH? Timothy McVeigh won nothing. I can't believe anyone could possibly say that.

Thesaurum
05-20-2014, 09:56 PM
You have never offended me, but I applaud your resolution. You didn't ask for advice but I suspect you're going to get some.

Action dispels anxiety bchis. Resist the paralysis of indecision. Join something that you think might appeal to you that requires you to be occasionally physically present. Perhaps that 'Rage-Against-the-ODOT-Machine' known as Friends for a Better Boulevard; it has urbanist folk who believe in a cause, have a vision and who apparently serve liquor at some of their meetings.:)

Seriously, sometimes just showing up for something to do vollunteer work is the best medicine for social anxiety and becoming part of the community. https://www.volunteermatch.org/search?l=Oklahoma+City%2C+OK%2C+USA

I'll stay tuned to see the new bchris in action. You have my best wishes.

DavidD_NorthOKC
05-20-2014, 10:07 PM
Perhaps that 'Rage-Against-the-ODOT-Machine' known as Friends for a Better Boulevard; it has urbanist folk who believe in a cause, have a vision and who apparently serve liquor at some of their meetings.:)

I love that!! Maybe we should open every FBB event with 'Sleep Now In The Fire'!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w211KOQ5BMI

DavidD_NorthOKC
05-20-2014, 10:17 PM
But seriously bchris - I am originally from NC and understand much of what you are saying. There are a few very frustrating things about Oklahoma to be sure. But the people are genuinely welcoming and nice regardless of most other considerations or differences. (There are always exceptions but that is true for everywhere.) The growth and changes in OKC have been amazing even if I think we are in danger of making some serious mistakes in the near future. But even at that, in a few years you will probably look back in amazement at the changes that occur while you are here.

OKC is definitely a work in progress and will have some growing pains. It simply cannot be like Charlotte or any other eastern city nor should it be. We still have a lot of the old "that's just the way it is" around here with outsize influence resting in a few people and basically one industry. They often have too much ability to dictate what our elected leaders do and that is not healthy for the city or state. But those very same people and that industry does a lot of good as well - so I hesitate to paint them as bad or evil as some do when the frustration reaches a high enough level.

Don't hesitate to just show up and offer to help at just about anything. You will be welcomed and eventually you will find your niche. Choose to find the positive and try to let the negative roll off. Hang in there and I hope to meet you some time in the real world.

adaniel
05-20-2014, 10:30 PM
I appreciate your honesty and candor. It is not easy spilling your life on the internet.

I look at it this way. There is a reason you are here. It could be God, karma, fate, Muhammed, the stars, whatever your belief system is, but I don't think things happen in a vacuum. My current situation is a lot like yours. I will tell you I had no intentions of leaving OKC but I was in a job in where our management changed and I became so miserable over a 6 month period I actually gave myself an ulcer. I could have stayed and maybe found a new job there but I had an opportunity in Dallas that literally fell in my lap. I did and still do have deep reservations about relocating here but this new move has 100% been a positive for my career direction, not to mention no ulcers. So I embrace this area for what it is even though I know in the back of my head this is probably not were I want to permanently settle. In life you there will always be trade-offs but you have to prioritize what you want (in this case employment) and learn to compromise with what you can't have.

I do have some slight issue with your "blind boosterism" comment. Most people are here because they want to be here. I've never felt that people here on OKCTalk are above criticizing something in this city (and there is a lot that still can be improved here) but at the end of the day they love it here. I bet in Charlotte you knew a lot of New Yorkers who complained "wow the pizza/bagels here are terrible" or "things moved much more efficiently in NJ/NYC/LI compared to you slow southerners." Well, I hate to say, but that's you. I don't think you mean it, but people never respond well with "where I'm from"-type comments in any place. With that in mind never feel like you can't have an honest discussion about things. I think you should be more careful to frame it in a way that is not so condescending. Criticize the object, not the people behind the object. Its a good way to go through life as well.

One last thing, and I am probably straying out of my lane a bit. It is clear to me that between your posts here and on other sites/forums that you are having some issues with anxiety and depression for some time but have not properly dealt with it. I would really suggest you go see a mental health professional. There is no shame in seeking help for things you cannot control. I actually had a very close relative attempt suicide in January. We have known for years he had deep seeded issues but that side of our family views mental health with such disdain he never reached out. Not saying that will happen to you but why burden yourself with such things when you may not even have to? Social anxiety and depression are not things you have to live with.

In any event I really hope things get better for you.

MikeLucky
05-21-2014, 09:06 AM
At the risk of being the ahole in the room (not a huge risk... it's sometimes my thing), I will offer some advice that I wish I had received at your place and age...

The day you stop waiting for a city/place/person/people to provide YOU happiness, is the day your life begins. Take responsibility for your own happiness and WORK HARD to become a person that people want to be around. I'm going to repeat that because it's the most important thing you can hear right now. WORK HARD to become a person that people want to be around. Then you will be amazed at how life will begin to come to you, as opposed to the other way around. I know you have social issues and I know you used a lot of words to explain away all the things in your life you are not happy with in this thread. But, all I see are excuses and crutches. And, regardless of your justifications, the person you are on this board is not someone that I imagine a lot of people want to be around. Maybe harsh words, but you need to hear them.

So, you can continue to spend your time coming up with all the elaborate reasons why you aren't a happy person or why you say the things you say or do the things you do... OR you can use that time, energy, and effort to get out in the world and be a person that is happy in your own skin and it'll make you a person that others want to be around and invest THEIR lives with. Go to restaurants and sit at the bar to eat. Strike up conversations with the bartenders and even other patrons. There's nothing to lose with these conversations. You have to eat anyway, there's always a tv to watch, and the bartenders are paid to talk to you. Become a "regular" at a few places and you'll be surprised at the network of friends you can build just from doing that one little thing. That's just one example of many in this thread for you do be proactive about your own happiness.

Stop waiting for the world to come to your doorstep. Become a person that people enjoy being around and the world will notice. Or, you can just continue to write essays on a message board to justify to yourself why you are so unhappy. The choice is yours and yours only.

gopokes88
05-21-2014, 09:38 AM
I know what you mean about beautification. I lived in Raleigh for 7 years and use to think Charlotte was a little ' run down', only to realize that Durham was about the same. Generally speaking OKC is a 'pit' compared to eastern cities (I now live in the Atlanta area), but compared to what it was 10 years ago, it has made vast improvements. But, it has not been universal. Some areas of OKC use to be quite nice and well-maintained and have now become run down. Most OKies are still stuck in the urban sprawl mind set - the neighbors have stop cutting the grass so it is time to move to a 'new neighborhood'. But far worst than the landscaping is the political environment. Though always a little on the conservative side (nothing wrong with that) Oklahoma has become Tea Party central, and conservative has become intolerance. Timmothy McVeigh set off a bomb (and I was near by) - and in the end he won, Oklahoma has become, politically speaking, the toxic place he wanted. It is no longer the land of diversity and amused acceptance - but of ignorant hate speech, and 'my way or no way' I miss Oklahoma more than most will ever realize ....but it is impossible to go home.

This is by far the dumbest post I have ever read on this forum.
McVeigh won nothing except being one of the most evil people to ever live.

Liberals aren't tolerant of anyone's viewpoints but their own, and eventually they'll start to eat their own. MSNBC just screams diversity and inclusion.

When was the last time someone in Oklahoma lost their job because they were pro-gay marriage? Have the two lesbians in Tulsa suing the state over its gay marriage ban lost their jobs? No.

Because in ultra tolerant liberal land of California the last time someone lost their job for not being in support of gay marriage because of a religious belief was last week. Benham brothers: 'If faith cost us TV show, so be it' (http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2014/05/07/hgtv-nixes-benham-brothers-series-anti-gay-extremist-abortion/8810393/)

Tolerance is I disagree with you but I'm not going to harm you because of that disagreement, and if push comes to shove, I'll fight for your right to disagree with me.

Liberals will not tolerate intolerance.

I'll take Oklahoma's version of tolerance way before the liberals. That tide will turn and they will come for everyone in their path, even themselves.

kelroy55
05-21-2014, 09:48 AM
I may not agree all the time but still want you to keep on posting.

PennyQuilts
05-21-2014, 09:54 AM
HUH? Timothy McVeigh won nothing. I can't believe anyone could possibly say that.

Me either. It is absolutely disgusting and could only have been written by someone who wanted to believe it. But let's get back to topic which is to talk to our friend, bchris. who is struggling.

Dennis Heaton
05-21-2014, 10:40 AM
As an OLDER person...ain't never bothered me. As much as I might disagree with some of the posts on OKCTalk, by any number of members, I will always respect one's right to "speak their mind."

As I like to say...

7904

P.S. Just wanted to add (after reading OKCbyTRANSFER's Post), I NEVER had any notion of EVER living in Oklahoma. My Stepfather was a native of Broken Bow. I have pert much lived most of my life in Coastal states. But, here I am, smack dab in the middle of OK. My future plans are to move back to South Carolina or Oregon AFTER my Son graduates from High School. One thing is certain...it is gonna be tough to find a bunch of nicer people as I have in OKC.

OKCbyTRANSFER
05-21-2014, 11:10 AM
Bchris...allow me to add my thanks for your honesty. I am also not from here, and trust me, of all the palces I've lived in, both long and short term, the LAST place I imagined myself was here in Oklahoma. I have 7 years under my belt here now, it's taken me a long time to accept living here, and know what? I'm used to it. OKC has changed so much, and I enjoy see the downtown core become what it has...I moved here right as the Project 180 was starting and lived through the dirt, street closures, etc to what we have now.
I'll admit, there are things I hate about living here...being a single, gay male in the redest of states is not easy...being from the east coast I'm used to a much more liberal atmosphere, so that is very difficult for me. Change is coming, allbeit very slowly, and I have met some really nice friends here to help soften that blow. My job is here, I've established a life here, and will I be here forever? I really don't know what the future holds right now, but I'm at peace with my decision and hope you will also find it. This site has helped a great deal (thanks Pete and all)...I've learned so much about the city/area and see the passion the contributors here have for the area. Sorry to make it so long...

pedmond
05-21-2014, 11:52 AM
Bchris.... I don't post often, but I do like to read this forum from time to time and I can assure you I don't hate your posts, nor do I have a problem with you criticizing OKC or making comparisons to other cities. What I do have a problem with is when people slam you for what you've posted.

I'm in my sixties and grew up in OKC, worked and lived in Midtown during the seventies and over the last 20 years have seen OKC transformed. I'm thrilled OKC has made as much progress as it has, but if someone has a different viewpoint on how things should have been done or would like to see something different, I certainly don't have a problem with you or anyone else expressing their views.

Keep posting and best of luck.

Plutonic Panda
05-21-2014, 12:59 PM
McVeigh won nothing except being one of the most evil people to ever live.Ha. Give me a break. You do know why he did that, right? Now I am not justifying him killing the innocent people, he should've just gone after the people directly involved and he wouldn't have been so hated, but make no mistake, he is not "one of the most evil people to ever live". You need to brush up on your history if you think that.

Throckmorton
05-21-2014, 01:06 PM
but make no mistake, he is not "one of the most evil people to ever live"..

How many babies does one need to kill to get on that list?

Dennis Heaton
05-21-2014, 01:24 PM
How many babies does one need to kill to get on that list?

Might want to ask Dr. Nareshkumar G. Patel, MD (www Oklahoma city abortion dot com (Outpatient Services for Women-Home (http://www.oklahomacityabortion.com/)) THAT question.

FighttheGoodFight
05-21-2014, 01:28 PM
First, I didn't want to leave Charlotte but had to because of my job situation so I had a negative attitude straight out of the box. My family is in rural eastern Oklahoma so I stayed with them while job hunting.

Great post. I do not find any of your posts particularly bad or mean. We all want the best for OKC and Oklahoma.

I can see how being forced to move back to where your parents live can give a bad attitude to the area. My family is from rural Texas and I would never want to live there. I'm sure I would feel the same way.

I will say this. Don't group all of us Okies in the same pot. I think at your age and in your social circumstance there is still plenty to do. Find a good activity you actually enjoy doing and try to meet some people who do similar things. In college I got really into biking and found a group to ride with. Met some people who turned out to be really nice and I found a niche.

Wish you all the best.

PennyQuilts
05-21-2014, 01:29 PM
Ha. Give me a break. You do know why he did that, right? Now I am not justifying him killing the innocent people, he should've just gone after the people directly involved and he wouldn't have been so hated, but make no mistake, he is not "one of the most evil people to ever live". You need to brush up on your history if you think that.

Keep in mind the comment about McVeigh being one of the most evil people was in direct response to someone actually claiming mcveigh had won because conservative Oklahoma is one of the most toxic places, blah, blah. If someone was around when he did that, they might well believe he was one of the most evil. I don't think people can really know but in my book, blowing up babies puts him the race - the only difference is in the numbers. To suggest people, now, share mcveigh's mindset prompts people to point out that not only do they not share his views, they think he was evil.

Plutonic Panda
05-21-2014, 01:44 PM
How many babies does one need to kill to get on that list?If you kill one innocent baby you can be considered evil. The list is tecnically infinite, so any evil person would be on it, but being high up, I don't think Tim McVeigh would be.

Plutonic Panda
05-21-2014, 01:51 PM
Keep in mind the comment about McVeigh being one of the most evil people was in direct response to someone actually claiming mcveigh had won because conservative Oklahoma is one of the most toxic places, blah, blah. If someone was around when he did that, they might well believe he was one of the most evil. I don't think people can really know but in my book, blowing up babies puts him the race - the only difference is in the numbers. To suggest people, now, share mcveigh's mindset prompts people to point out that not only do they not share his views, they think he was evil.I agree. He did a horrible thing and I am no way trying to say he was justified in doing it.

That is really dumb though, to say Tim McVeigh won. He only wins if you would've let him. In my view, he went down in the book of losers. We prevailed, we rebuilt, and I honestly think we became a better city because of it. It actually gave us national recognition and we built a wonderful, world-class memorial honoring those who lost their lives in the blast.

If tAlan CB think he won, than that is his problem. He apparently failed to see how we came together during a time of crisis and rose above the ashes. To me, to suggest our politics are the way they are because of a guy who blew up a building, tells me whoever thinks that, has officially bought a ticket to board the all out crazy train.

Celebrator
05-21-2014, 01:56 PM
Well, one thing you have seen for sure since your original post went up last night, is that the people here are pretty hard to beat. You have had so many reach out and offer a friendly word or some advice on this very thread-- hat right there should count for something as to what makes this place special. I see it everyday and am constantly amazed at the kindness and caring of people in Oklahoma. Start with gratitude and it will take you far.

Teo9969
05-21-2014, 02:14 PM
Hey man, if nothing else, this thread has moved you from the "#1 hated poster" to the #2…right behind TAlan CB :lol2:

Seriously, I don't think you need to apologize to us for your posting. In reality, the person it affects the most is you. I think the frustration you see people show you is not so much a dislike of you but more disliking that your enjoyment is being robbed by all the negative posts. It's hard to watch people struggle with something when you're not…

At any rate, Cheers to choosing to find ways to enjoy things that are less than perfect!!

soonerguru
05-21-2014, 02:18 PM
bchris,

I have occasionally given you a hard time, but I've always liked you. Not a blind booster here, but maybe because I'm a big older it's easier for me to have perspective. OKC is improving steadily, and we are fortunate to have a site like this one to air public issues that formerly were swept under the rug in a back room. You bring many good ideas, and your perspective is welcomed. We just try to reel you in when you get a little hyperbolic in your negativity. Keep perspective.

Jim Kyle
05-21-2014, 04:22 PM
That is really dumb though, to say Tim McVeigh won. He only wins if you would've let him. In my view, he went down in the book of losers. We prevailed, we rebuilt, and I honestly think we became a better city because of it. It actually gave us national recognition and we built a wonderful, world-class memorial honoring those who lost their lives in the blast.I think you are both correct, contradictory as that must sound. I believe that McVeigh considered himself to be a true defender of our Constitution, and that he was horribly mistaken in that belief and terribly wrong in the tactic he chose to "defend the constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Specifically, I think he saw his action as a hammer blow against the forces that had taken his nation away from the path of righteousness, and consequently as an act in defense of our heritage.

Of course, he was wrong in that belief, and he chose a massively inapprooriate method by which to act.

However he didn't specifically choose to massacre 19 babies; he didn't even do enough research to realize that the day care area would take much of the blast, or that the rest would be concentrated on the Social Security offices where civilians would be. He saw only that it was "The Federal Building" and he was striking a blow at the Federal government.

The rest, of course, he considered to be collateral damage -- a magnificently sanitized term lifted directly from DOD reports of some of our most honorable conflicts abroad. He didn't even choose to use Stalin's phrase about omelets and breaking eggs, which would have been equally appropriate.

He obviously failed in his purpose, and if anything, strengthened the Federal Government (at least temporarily) rather than damaging it in any way. Security measures stiffened, access to government offices became more restricted, and we became much less free to express opposition to The Powers That Be. Political Correctness became the order of the day.

So how can I believe that he won in any sense of the word? To put it simply, he made it obvious that we had strayed far, far indeed from the path envisioned by our Founding Fathers -- who were, themselves, rabid terrorists in the view of George III and company. He led enough people to believe that our government was no longer "by the people and for the people" to make possible the rise of the far right to positions of enough power to bring that government to a gridlock condition.

Many years ago I studied to become a professional writer under the tutelage of a man who was an avid historian and philosopher in addition to having published more than 800 short stories. Foster told me several times that he expected the nation to explode into a Second Civil War by the 1990s -- not between the North and the South, but between the Haves and the Have-Nots. Thankfully, he was wrong -- at least, about the timing. It remains to be seen whether his prediction ever comes true. The current political conflict is labelled as being between Liberals and Conservatives -- but both sides have become so polarized that neither a liberal nor a conservative from a hundred years ago would recognize either as they flounder toward no expressed common goal, and our government falls into disarray.

Bottom line: if Tim McVeigh sought to bring down the U.S. Government, he did go a significant way toward achieving his goal. It's up to us who feel that the return to the Constitution can be achieved by less violent means to see that his goal is never reached.

To get back to the thread topic after this aside, and address BChris -- We're not all blind boosters, nor do the vast majority of those who follow this (or any other) forum post a lot. For every poster, there are probably 10 or 12 silent lurkers. And for them as well as for the rest of us, your comments help us to view our city and our attitudes much more clearly that we could without your viewpoint. Keep it up. And thank you for a great explanation of your feelings. I suspect that more of us ought to do the same thing, and become more fully dimensioned individuals as opposed to anonymous message posters...

TAlan CB
05-21-2014, 07:34 PM
Ha. Give me a break. You do know why he did that, right? Now I am not justifying him killing the innocent people, he should've just gone after the people directly involved and he wouldn't have been so hated, but make no mistake, he is not "one of the most evil people to ever live". You need to brush up on your history if you think that.

Quite right, McVeigh was not evil, he was anti-government, narrow-minded, self-righteous ( sound a little like the current legislature?), desensitized by war, ... but mostly he was a coward.

Liberals can be just as self-righteous in their beliefs as conservatives - extremism is the problem. To paint with a large brush any group of people - or the way they believe is naive. When I spoke of a toxic environment in Oklahoma I was speaking in the political arena, not the entire population. My immediate family still lives there and they are all conservative - but they will be the first tell you that it has gone too far. None the less, I still enjoy going to football games at my alma maters - both OSU and OU. Your very statement("gopokes") "I'll take Oklahoma's version of tolerance way before the liberals." is precisely what I am talking about.

I understand feelings about the bombing, I was 3 blocks away when it went off - my sister was a nurse on duty in the emergency room many of the victims were taken to - a good friend was in the building and her emotional statement about the experience is on the walls of the capital building. That is why it is so hard to hear some of the same things he believed and stated come out of the mouths of OKlahoma leaders....

zookeeper
05-21-2014, 08:19 PM
Quite right, McVeigh was not evil, he was anti-government, narrow-minded, self-righteous ( sound a little like the current legislature?), desensitized by war, ... but mostly he was a coward.

Liberals can be just as self-righteous in their beliefs as conservatives - extremism is the problem. To paint with a large brush any group of people - or the way they believe is naive. When I spoke of a toxic environment in Oklahoma I was speaking in the political arena, not the entire population. My immediate family still lives there and they are all conservative - but they will be the first tell you that it has gone too far. None the less, I still enjoy going to football games at my alma maters - both OSU and OU. Your very statement("gopokes") "I'll take Oklahoma's version of tolerance way before the liberals." is precisely what I am talking about.

I understand feelings about the bombing, I was 3 blocks away when it went off - my sister was a nurse on duty in the emergency room many of the victims were taken to - a good friend was in the building and her emotional statement about the experience is on the walls of the capital building. That is why it is so hard to hear some of the same things he believed and stated come out of the mouths of OKlahoma leaders....

Actually, Oklahoma has always been extremely conservative. But to hear you say it's worse now? To imply it started with McVeigh? Oklahoma is as Oklahoma is. The only real liberal pockets are inside very small parts of Oklahoma City. The state as a whole has always been far, far right. (Since 1940 anyway.)

BChris: I'm so glad you posted what you did. I know I have gotten frustrated with you on several occasions, yet I've always thought it was good you were at least involved. Sometimes it was how you reasoned your arguments as much as anything that I had problems with. But it sounds like in your post that you need to shed much of the past and begin looking ahead. Sounds so simple, huh? I certainly know that it isn't. Accepting yourself and liking yourself and not beating yourself up could be life-changing for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

TAlan CB
05-21-2014, 08:26 PM
bChris,

We all can get caught in the negative of any circumstance or place. I still brag about Oklahoma (avoiding politics less I get in trouble for having an opinion) despite what you may have read here. I was, at-first, disappointed by NC when I moved there from Dallas. But, I remembered what many others on this post have already advised, it is up to you. There is 'magic' in any land and place under the sun, and it is up to you to find it. Here is the magic of Oklahoma, the people are survivors - and as you have seen, they go on to thrive no matter what has happen to them. But there is also magic in the land - it is where the east meets the west, the south the north - both in land-forms and culture. The Witchita Mts and the Cimarron beneath the bluffs near the Alabaster Caverns. The Kiamichi and Skyline drives in the Southeast. The Salt Flats near Jet and Turner Falls in the south. The rolling hills and Tall Grass prairie near Bartlesville - and the Sky no matter where you are. Go to the lakes - you can travel on Lake Eufuala for a hundred miles from Gentry Creek landing to the dam and watch the water go from Red to deep blue beneath forested hills. Visit the Gilcrease and Philbrook Museums in Tulsa and discover that Oklahoma has two different kinds of big City. see Frank Loyd Wrights only tower in Bartlesville. But mostly, just get involved, do things, volunteer ... it gives you so much more than you give. When I travel to the NC shore on the outer banks - and now the Georgia Sea islands - I see all the wonder in the land, but I also look out to sea and in that moment I am home again because I see the sky.

TAlan CB
05-21-2014, 08:43 PM
Actually, Oklahoma has always been extremely conservative. But to hear you say it's worse now? To imply it started with McVeigh? Oklahoma is as Oklahoma is. The only real liberal pockets are inside very small parts of Oklahoma City. The state as a whole has always been far, far right.

BChris: I'm so glad you posted what you did. I know I have gotten frustrated with you on several occasions, yet I've always thought it was good you were at least involved. Sometimes it was how you reasoned your arguments as much as anything that I had problems with. But it sounds like in your post that you need to shed much of the past and begin looking ahead. Sounds so simple, huh? I certainly know that it isn't. Accepting yourself and liking yourself and not beating yourself up could be life-changing for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

Oklahoma has always been conservative? Generally yes, But "far far right" - not even by a long shot. Please, read the state constitution - the longest, Most Socialistic Constitution (technically Populist - and consequently frequently changed) of any state - and most countries. My family has been in Oklahoma since before statehood - married into the Cherokees to get land. The stories I've heard - leading me to get a degree to teach history - have conservative values, but very liberal state politics all through them. Most of those (liberal politics) were from rural strongholds, the cities were where the conservatives lived. I've lived half that history, and times do change.

zookeeper
05-21-2014, 08:58 PM
Oklahoma has always been conservative? Generally yes, But "far far right" - not even by a long shot. Please, read the state constitution - the longest, Most Socialistic Constitution (technically Populist - and consequently frequently changed) of any state - and most countries. My family has been in Oklahoma since before statehood - married into the Cherokees to get land. The stories I've heard - leading me to get a degree to teach history - have conservative values, but very liberal state politics all through them. Most of those (liberal politics) were from rural strongholds, the cities were where the conservatives lived. I've lived half that history, and times do change.

I was thinking 1940 on. I am fully aware of Oklahoma's populist and Socialist Party past. Socialist Oscar Ameringer did well in a run for Mayor of Oklahoma City, Debs won his highest percentage of the vote in Oklahoma than any other state in two of his runs for the presidency. But it dried up and fast.

The modern era shows no history at all of liberalism in the rural areas. Remember, Democrats were all there was until Henry Bellmon, I watched that, and they were as conservative on social issues, and most economic issues, than most Republicans today. The biggest influence on Oklahoma politics up until 1990, leaving out the current time so as to not debate that, was the Southern Baptists, without question.

Before you say, "Fred Harris," he was elected to the U.S. Senate running as a moderate. He went on to become one of the most progressive lawmakers in the history of the Senate. But that brought a crop of "SHED FRED" bumper stickers, polls showed him losing badly, so he chose to run for president instead. Twice. But before he left, he almost became Humphrey's running mate in '68 and served as Chairman of the Democratic Party. But he was hated back home here in Oklahoma, which was a shame, Fred Harris was a fighter.

In modern times, I believe Oklahoma has always been very far right. In my opinion, Jim Inhofe and Don Nickles were the two worst Senators in Oklahoma history and two of the worst the nation has ever had to put up with. To think Inhofe wants six more years is just disgusting. Another topic though...

venture
05-21-2014, 11:42 PM
In modern times, I believe Oklahoma has always been very far right. In my opinion, Jim Inhofe and Don Nickles were the two worst Senators in Oklahoma history and two of the worst the nation has ever had to put up with. To think Inhofe wants six more years is just disgusting. Another topic though...

The guy is 79...he'll be 87 when this new term expires. At some point he needs to take queues from others and learn when to pass it on to another generation. He's just a selfish old man who will probably die of health issues or old age in office and then we get to do the special election crap again.

venture
05-21-2014, 11:46 PM
BChris...

I appreciate your post. I've been tough on you in the past in the weather forms for the anxiety issues you have, and hope you find help with that. Don't lose hope or worry about what you post. I come from a home town in the rust belt that has a very negative populace with very little good to say about their own town. I would trade the temperament in a heart beat because that city has so much going for it, if only the energy was focused in the right direction. I do also understand that sometimes people can get a bit over the top and a bit too positive - but it's important to keep in mind that reality checks usually will greet them sooner or later. OKC has a lot of good going for it, but there are also some things that need changing - and will as a new generation takes over. I miss the water and large, tall trees in my backyard back "home"...but Oklahoma has a charm to it as well.

bchris02
05-22-2014, 11:23 AM
Thanks for the responses everybody!


My current situation is a lot like yours. I will tell you I had no intentions of leaving OKC but I was in a job in where our management changed and I became so miserable over a 6 month period I actually gave myself an ulcer. I could have stayed and maybe found a new job there but I had an opportunity in Dallas that literally fell in my lap. I did and still do have deep reservations about relocating here but this new move has 100% been a positive for my career direction, not to mention no ulcers. So I embrace this area for what it is even though I know in the back of my head this is probably not were I want to permanently settle. In life you there will always be trade-offs but you have to prioritize what you want (in this case employment) and learn to compromise with what you can't have.




I can see how being forced to move back to where your parents live can give a bad attitude to the area.

Adaniel, your situation does sound very similar to mine. Within about four months back in early 2012, some policy changes at my job in Charlotte turned what was the best time of my life into a life so miserable and stressful I was getting nosebleeds and passing out at work. I was worried I would have had a stroke if I would have stayed in that job. While in January 2012 I never would have left Charlotte in a million years, by May of that year it was looking inevitable. This move has been 100% the best thing for me career wise.

It's interesting you feel that way about DFW though, a place that I see as vibrant and exciting and where I would probably move if I left OKC. I think it goes back to an inherent desire in some people to get out and experience new and different things after college. For me that was Charlotte, for you that was OKC.

I guess it is a matter of perspective. While there are things OKC is lacking that Charlotte has (and Dallas even moreso), the best of OKC is very accessible compared to a lot of larger cities.




Stop waiting for the world to come to your doorstep. Become a person that people enjoy being around and the world will notice.

Agree. This goes for anybody if you want a life change you have to go after it yourself. You can't wait for things to just happen. I have been bad about that. Thanks.


bChris,

We all can get caught in the negative of any circumstance or place. I still brag about Oklahoma (avoiding politics less I get in trouble for having an opinion) despite what you may have read here. I was, at-first, disappointed by NC when I moved there from Dallas. But, I remembered what many others on this post have already advised, it is up to you. There is 'magic' in any land and place under the sun, and it is up to you to find it. Here is the magic of Oklahoma, the people are survivors - and as you have seen, they go on to thrive no matter what has happen to them. But there is also magic in the land - it is where the east meets the west, the south the north - both in land-forms and culture. The Witchita Mts and the Cimarron beneath the bluffs near the Alabaster Caverns. The Kiamichi and Skyline drives in the Southeast. The Salt Flats near Jet and Turner Falls in the south. The rolling hills and Tall Grass prairie near Bartlesville - and the Sky no matter where you are. Go to the lakes - you can travel on Lake Eufuala for a hundred miles from Gentry Creek landing to the dam and watch the water go from Red to deep blue beneath forested hills. Visit the Gilcrease and Philbrook Museums in Tulsa and discover that Oklahoma has two different kinds of big City. see Frank Loyd Wrights only tower in Bartlesville. But mostly, just get involved, do things, volunteer ... it gives you so much more than you give. When I travel to the NC shore on the outer banks - and now the Georgia Sea islands - I see all the wonder in the land, but I also look out to sea and in that moment I am home again because I see the sky.

That's one thing I really like about Oklahoma. There are so many different climates/terrain type in a very short drive. Drive an hour and a half southwest of the city and you can be in a semi-arid environment. Go southeast and I can get a small taste of western North Carolina with its tall, majestic pines, mountains, and biodiversity.

Bunty
05-22-2014, 08:30 PM
Actually, Oklahoma has always been extremely conservative. But to hear you say it's worse now? To imply it started with McVeigh? Oklahoma is as Oklahoma is. The only real liberal pockets are inside very small parts of Oklahoma City. The state as a whole has always been far, far right. (Since 1940 anyway.)



An interesting exception from being conservative was made in 1964 when Oklahoma voters did not pass Right to Work, while signaling the end to the Right to Work movement for the nation.