View Full Version : Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II



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Dennis Heaton
05-11-2014, 08:57 AM
NOTE: This IS NOT an attempt to circumvent the Administrator's decision to close the Thread, "Let's Talk About Prayer."

It was my intention to bring to the discussion, the recent Supreme Court decision regarding "praying in public."

Just a reminder...please keep it civil.

__________________________________________________

"Supreme Court ruling tilts law to the right on public prayer"

A Supreme Court divided along both ideological and religious lines cleared the way Monday for local officials to open public meetings with explicitly Christian prayers, ruling that the Constitution does not require government-sponsored religious invocations to be "addressed only to a generic God.".

The 5-4 opinion puts the court's stamp of approval on a trend in conservative communities to include more overtly religious references in public meetings.

It is also likely to be read as implicitly sanctioning Christian and other religious displays on public property, including Christmas trees and Nativity scenes during the holiday season.

For decades, the court has been closely split on the proper role of religion in government settings. Monday's opinion tilts the law to the right and gives local officials considerably more freedom.

Justices rejected the idea — which had prevailed in previous rulings — that official invocations should be limited to "nonsectarian" references, such as the "Almighty" or "Heavenly Father." Rather, the court said Christian clerics may be invited to deliver prayers that invoke the name of Jesus Christ so long as no one is forced to join in saying the prayer.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, who spoke for the court's conservative majority, said those who "feel excluded or disrespected" by such religious invocations could simply ignore them. "Adults often encounter speech they find disagreeable," he said.

Throughout American history, he added, "ceremonial prayer" has been a regular part of public gatherings. Judges may not act as "censors of religious speech" by telling government officials that they've crossed the line by permitting Christian messages.

The dissenters, led by Justice Elena Kagan, said the court had crossed a line by approving a policy of "religious favoritism." She said the majority might view the case differently if a "mostly Muslim town" decided to open its meetings with Muslim prayers or a Jewish community always invited a rabbi to open its official proceedings.

"When the citizens of this country approach their government, they do so only as Americans, not as members of one faith or other," she wrote. "They should not confront government-sponsored worship that divides them along religious lines."

The five justices in the majority — Kennedy, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr. — are Catholic. Three of the four dissenters — Kagan and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer — are Jewish. The fourth, Justice Sonia Sotomayor, was raised Catholic but is not a regular churchgoer.

The case began when a town supervisor in Greece, N.Y., near Rochester, decided to invite local clerics to open the town's monthly meetings with a prayer. Between 1999 and 2007, all of the participating ministers were Christian.

Two residents who regularly attended the meetings, Susan Galloway, who is Jewish, and Linda Stephens, who is not religious, complained to the supervisor and then filed suit. They contended the town's policy of sponsoring Christian prayers violated the 1st Amendment's ban on an "establishment of religion."

No one disputed that the town could open its meetings with a religious invocation. The Supreme Court in 1983 upheld legislative prayers in a Nebraska case. But it was unclear whether such official prayers could invoke Jesus Christ.

The U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in 2012 that the Greece town council had gone too far, citing the "steady drumbeat" of Christian prayers.

That decision relied heavily on the opinions of former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who helped forge a previous majority around the idea that the government may not endorse or favor any particular religion.

But the current Supreme Court reversed the 2nd Circuit ruling and rejected the lawsuit. Ceremonial prayers are constitutional, Kennedy said, so long as they do not "denigrate nonbelievers or religious minorities, threaten damnation or preach conversion."

Thomas would have gone further and said the 1st Amendment does not forbid states or cities from establishing an official religion. Thomas says the 1st Amendment, when it was adopted, limited only the federal government.

Though the case involved a town council, the ruling applies to all levels of government, including state and county boards.

The Alliance Defending Freedom, an Arizona-based religious rights group that defended the town, said the ruling had "affirmed again that Americans are free to pray. Speech censors should have no power to silence volunteers who pray for their communities just as the founders did," said David Cortman, a senior counsel for the group.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington-based advocacy group that represented Galloway and Stephens, said it was disappointed. "The Supreme Court just relegated millions of Americans — both believers and nonbelievers — to second-class citizenship," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director. "Now all who attend meetings of their local boards could be subjected to the religion of the majority."

Bill Reilich, town supervisor of Greece, said Monday that the prayer practice would continue and that anyone who wanted to come and offer a prayer could do so.

"It's freedom of speech," Reilich said at a news conference. "It's beyond even religion. It's reaffirming what our country was founded on. It's much bigger than the town of Greece."

david.savage@latimes.com, May 05, 2014

kelroy55
05-11-2014, 09:44 AM
I have mixed feelings about public prayer. I think most are OK with it as long as it's their 'God' being prayed to. I can imaging the reaction to a Muslim prayer at a football game in the south.

Jim Kyle
05-11-2014, 10:39 AM
My opinion on public prayer is that all should follow the explicit command set forth in the Gospel according to Matthew: "go into thy closet and shut the door."

Several decades ago, a Methodist minister wrote a number of best-selling novels based on this passage. Google for "Magnificent Obsession" to find one of the best-known samples of his work...

Throckmorton
05-11-2014, 10:44 AM
Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

How About Let's Not...Part Infinity

Dennis Heaton
05-11-2014, 10:56 AM
My opinion on public prayer is that all should follow the explicit command set forth in the Gospel according to Matthew: "go into thy closet and shut the door."

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:6 (NKJV)

Dennis Heaton
05-11-2014, 10:59 AM
How About Let's Not...Part Infinity

Did you mean..."affinity?"

BBatesokc
05-11-2014, 11:27 AM
I have mixed feelings about public prayer. I think most are OK with it as long as it's their 'God' being prayed to. I can imaging the reaction to a Muslim prayer at a football game in the south.

I actually think most mature rational people are fine with public prayer regardless of the specific denomination, faith, beliefs, etc.

I'm agnostic (leans mostly to atheist) and I have spent all of my life surrounded by people from all different faiths. Many of which participate or instigate some sort of a group/public prayer from time-to-time. Its never been an issue with me or anyone I've known of similar beliefs. I've never heard a public prayer that didn't have a positive message that anyone from any faith couldn't/shouldn't support.

You can be praying to a house plant for all I care as long as it inspires you to live a life that takes the path of do as little intentional harm as possible.

kelroy55
05-11-2014, 11:29 AM
I actually think most mature rational people are fine with public prayer regardless of the specific denomination, faith, beliefs, etc.

I'm agnostic (leans mostly to atheist) and I have spent all of my life surrounded by people from all different faiths. Many of which participate or instigate some sort of a group/public prayer from time-to-time. Its never been an issue with me or anyone I've known of similar beliefs. I've never heard a public prayer that didn't have a positive message that anyone from any faith couldn't/shouldn't support.

You can be praying to a house plant for all I care as long as it inspires you to live a life that takes the path of do as little intentional harm as possible.

I agree but there are a lot of people out there who aren't mature rational people.

PennyQuilts
05-11-2014, 12:35 PM
I agree but there are a lot of people out there who aren't mature rational people.

That will never change. They shouldn't be the ones we decide gets to decide societal norms.

Jim Kyle
05-11-2014, 12:50 PM
That will never change. They shouldn't be the ones we decide gets to decide societal norms.Agreed -- but in this era of Political Correctness, they are!

kelroy55
05-11-2014, 01:10 PM
That will never change. They shouldn't be the ones we decide gets to decide societal norms.

and who gets to decide their voice doesn't count?

PennyQuilts
05-11-2014, 01:39 PM
and who gets to decide their voice doesn't count?

The voices of reason. Which - if you will take note are defined in this thread as rational mature folk.

kevinpate
05-11-2014, 01:54 PM
I noted in the earlier thread, and will do so again here. The district court applied existing law. The 2nd circuit reversed.
The S.Ct. didn't go out carving brave new territory, in my opinion, by holding the 2nd. Cir. got it wrong under existing law.
If memory serves, the town in question was not barring everyone but one faith to the exclusion of all other faiths.

Just about anyone, irrespective of their faith or lack of a faith, can find a way to be offended .. if they are of a mind to do so.

Edmond_Outsider
05-11-2014, 09:32 PM
I do not have a problem with public prayer. However, I do have an issue with people prothletizing during theses events or refusing to make it inclusive by making it specifically sectarian.

In the last year, one of my kids' school sports began each game with a prayer over the stadium PA. At least one included a typical baptist alter call..."if anyone here has not accepted Jesus as their personal lord and savior, come forward now and be saved..."

Begs the question of where they were intending the unsaved to come forward to, the 50 yard line? Were the refs qualified to take people's confession of faith?

This, of course, violates the Courts' rule that prayer is fine, proselytizing is not.

Every prayer all season was overtly Christian even though there were virtually every major religion present in the US represented on the team. It's Oklahoma. People don't think good manners includes respect for non-Christians.

Prunepicker
05-11-2014, 09:51 PM
"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your
door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who
sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:6 (NKJV)
To put this into context, Jesus isn't saying that public prayer is wrong. He's
centering on the hypocrites, and specifically the pharisees. The point is to
not be a spectacle and build yourself up while putting down others.

OkieBerto
05-11-2014, 10:23 PM
Matthew 6:1
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

Most prayer I see is public...and it is done so that people will notice. I am sorry, but those people who prayer before every meal, even at McDonald's, yeah that doesn't get ya anywhere. So what is the point of public prayer? It is to show off their righteousness or their right to Heaven. The sad part is, even if there was a God listening to these prayers, he says that they will not be rewarded. Therefore, you are just talking to yourself.

I have seen a lot of believers in Texas trying to pray for rain, in a very public way, and these are the same people that do not believe in climate change. So if your pray isn't working, why aren't you trying to figure out why?

Of Sound Mind
05-12-2014, 06:30 AM
Matthew 6:1
…I am sorry, but those people who prayer before every meal, even at McDonald's, yeah that doesn't get ya anywhere…
Why's that? A prayer before a meal (for most) is about giving thanks to God for what He has provided. What is so offensive about that?

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 07:58 AM
What is so offensive about that?

I never stated I was offended by it. I am just saying what is the point? Their God clearly states that it doesn't reach him if you do it among others. Are you offended by my statement?

Of Sound Mind
05-12-2014, 09:02 AM
I never stated I was offended by it. I am just saying what is the point? Their God clearly states that it doesn't reach him if you do it among others. Are you offended by my statement?
I wasn't offended by your statement, just perplexed. Your subsequent answer clears up your position by demonstrating you clearly don't understand (and perhaps don't care to understand) what "God clearly states." The above cited passage and other relevant passages don't preclude praying in public places; rather they admonish those who make a public spectacle of their piety with lofty, yet often vacuous prayers that they wouldn't necessarily do in the same way in the privacy of their own home or closet. That isn't the same as a person or family who regularly offers a prayer of thanks before meals both in the privacy of their homes as well as in public view at a restaurant table.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 09:03 AM
Part of paganism includes cultivating an attitude of gratitude and respect for what you have and, if you eat meat, to consider the sacrifice made by an animal to which you benefited. Likewise, we are encouraged to appreciate the effort made by others to provide nourishment (i.e., bless the hands that prepared this meal).

I am not one who publicly says grace over a meal but IMO, an attitude of gratitude, thanks and appreciation is good for the soul and society. That's a little eddy of nonoffensive spirituality in the hustle and bustle of life and I don't know anyone who does that in an effort to prosyletize or show off. In these days, it tends to draw unwanted attention.

IMO, we should never reach a point where we take food and shelter for granted and saying grace reminds us of how blessed we are. Many are not so fortunate. If nothing else, this part of the conversation in this thread reminds me of that.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 09:20 AM
It is clear that people interpret the Bible as they see fit in their own lives. Basically I was just told how prayer works. Thank you kind religious people. My problem with public prayer is that most religious people think that it will fix problems in their personal lives and problems with the world in general. The quote, "all we can do know is prayer," is being used so often that we stop thinking of ways to fix problems with our brains. If God did create us, then he created that brain of yours. So use it and stop trying to have God fix everything for you. Stop using prayer as a crutch. I have not heard once that public prayer led to saving millions of people or changed our weather patterns or helped the stock market. I am sorry, I just do get it, but really thanks for telling me how it works.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 09:31 AM
It is clear that people interpret the Bible as they see fit in their own lives. Basically I was just told how prayer works. Thank you kind religious people. My problem with public prayer is that most religious people think that it will fix problems in their personal lives and problems with the world in general. The quote, "all we can do know is prayer," is being used so often that we stop thinking of ways to fix problems with our brains. If God did create us, then he created that brain of yours. So use it and stop trying to have God fix everything for you. Stop using prayer as a crutch. I have not heard once that public prayer led to saving millions of people or changed our weather patterns or helped the stock market. I am sorry, I just do get it, but really thanks for telling me how it works.

You've taken an unnecessary and erroneous leap. More prayful people adopt the "God helps those who help themselves" mentality than those that sit back and rely on god - and nothing in this thread suggests people routinely rely on god rather than their own initiative. I've been around religious people all my life and I personally believe in the power of prayer. That being said, I don't know anyone who, as a life strategy relies on prayer rather than their own acts. To suggest they do strikes me as a hammer looking for a nail.

kelroy55
05-12-2014, 09:42 AM
I do not have a problem with public prayer. However, I do have an issue with people prothletizing during theses events or refusing to make it inclusive by making it specifically sectarian.

In the last year, one of my kids' school sports began each game with a prayer over the stadium PA. At least one included a typical baptist alter call..."if anyone here has not accepted Jesus as their personal lord and savior, come forward now and be saved..."

Begs the question of where they were intending the unsaved to come forward to, the 50 yard line? Were the refs qualified to take people's confession of faith?

This, of course, violates the Courts' rule that prayer is fine, proselytizing is not.

Every prayer all season was overtly Christian even though there were virtually every major religion present in the US represented on the team. It's Oklahoma. People don't think good manners includes respect for non-Christians.


I've wondered that if they have a prayer before the game for player safety and health and somebody gets hurt, does that mean God didn't like that player?

SoonerDave
05-12-2014, 09:49 AM
It is clear that people interpret the Bible as they see fit in their own lives. Basically I was just told how prayer works. Thank you kind religious people. My problem with public prayer is that most religious people think that it will fix problems in their personal lives and problems with the world in general. The quote, "all we can do know is prayer," is being used so often that we stop thinking of ways to fix problems with our brains. If God did create us, then he created that brain of yours. So use it and stop trying to have God fix everything for you. Stop using prayer as a crutch. I have not heard once that public prayer led to saving millions of people or changed our weather patterns or helped the stock market. I am sorry, I just do get it, but really thanks for telling me how it works.

I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.

This is not how I view prayer. It is not a magical incantation to a genie in the hopes that I will get a wish granted.

Prayer is, for me, a personal humility accepted with desire and exhortation for us to pray to our sovereign God. Sometimes, private, personal prayer is the very hardest of all, because it is there where I am most exposed (certainly more to myself than to God), and have to come to grips with my own sin and shortcomings as a person. It is in that vein that a verse just shortly after 6:1 that has really compelled me to be humble in all of my prayer - and that's Matthew 6:7:


"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that
they shall be heard for their much speaking"

Prayer must be a heart exercise of faith. It's an act of sacrifice because it is an express acknowledgement that we are not in control, when most of us desperately want to be, and want the world to know it. That's our nature. That's "heart aspect" of prayer what this entire first portion of Matthew is all about - doing it for the sake of showing everyone else, which is obviously an empty effort. And I think a great many in the broader Christian community should take this particular scripture with greater, personal weight, emphasis, important (and none of those are precisely the right words). If I am asked to lead a prayer in my Sunday School classroom, I do so with a heavy sense of responsibility that goes along with intercessory prayer. It mustn't be about me, and my leading a prayer makes that even more difficult. I lament so much the fact that so many view prayer as only a "do this for me, to that for me" experience. And if that's how Christians are treating it, it's pretty tough to blame others if that's how its being perceived.

When I lead my family in a prayer at mealtime, whether at home, or a restaurant, it's simply to acknowledge that I and my family believe God provided what He did to us, that we don't deserve it, yet He provided it anyway in accordance with His sovereign will - and to offer a tiny amount of thanks in my wholly inadequate way.

I can't control anyone else's interpretation or thought or notion of why or how I pray. And the results of prayer are far, far too complex for me to expect to recognize the exact consequence - all I know is that we are exhorted to pray, and to do so constantly, and try as best I can to keep my prayers in a manner that suits Psalm 19:14:


Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 09:52 AM
You've taken an unnecessary and erroneous leap. More prayful people adopt the "God helps those who help themselves" mentality than those that sit back and rely on god - and nothing in this thread suggests people routinely rely on god rather than their own initiative. I've been around religious people all my life and I personally believe in the power of prayer. That being said, I don't know anyone who, as a life strategy relies on prayer rather than their own acts. To suggest they do strikes me as a hammer looking for a nail.

So you are saying prayer can fix things?

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 09:57 AM
When I lead my family in a prayer at mealtime, whether at home, or a restaurant, it's simply to acknowledge that I and my family believe God provided what He did to us, that we don't deserve it, yet He provided it anyway in accordance with His sovereign will - and to offer a tiny amount of thanks in my wholly inadequate way.

I can't control anyone else's interpretation or thought or notion of why or how I pray. And the results of prayer are far, far too complex for me to expect to recognize the exact consequence - all I know is that we are exhorted to pray, and to do so constantly, and try as best I can to keep my prayers in a manner that suits Psalm 19:14:

Why would one not deserve food and shelter and Love from God?

I really appreciate your answer. It wasn't telling me how to pray, but merely stating why you do it. I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

Dubya61
05-12-2014, 09:58 AM
... At least one included a typical baptist alter call..."if anyone here has not accepted Jesus as their personal lord and savior, come forward now and be saved..." ...

First, you're right. That was inappropriate, but it made me chuckle. I suddenly thought of all the times I was on the phone with some one I did NOT love in a familial way but the typical "sign off" that I employ with my family ("Love ya, bye") escaped just before I hung up.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 09:58 AM
I've wondered that if they have a prayer before the game for player safety and health and somebody gets hurt, does that mean God didn't like that player?

No it means he stated that praying publicly does not work. So, like I said, it is just a display of religious belief not a conversation with God.

kelroy55
05-12-2014, 11:31 AM
Why would one not deserve food and shelter and Love from God?

I really appreciate your answer. It wasn't telling me how to pray, but merely stating why you do it. I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

but denied to many

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 11:45 AM
So you are saying prayer can fix things?

You are asking me if I think it can "Fix" things? I don't even know how to respond to the notion. I suspect we are using some of the same words but with different meanings.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 11:47 AM
No it means he stated that praying publicly does not work. So, like I said, it is just a display of religious belief not a conversation with God.

How do you know that? What empirical evidence do you have that this doesn't constitute a conversation with a spiritual being? If this is just a question of you don't believe in god or that he cares, that's merely an opinion. You can't prove one way or the other if a conversation is taking place.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 12:08 PM
Why would one not deserve food and shelter and Love from God?

I really appreciate your answer. It wasn't telling me how to pray, but merely stating why you do it. I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

I don't know how old you are but an entitlement mindset is very recent. In religious terms, particularly christian, the notion is that all good things are gifts from god - the emphasis on "gifts." You don't earn them, you aren't entitled to them, to assume you earned them suggests god is constrained by some sort of contract and most - or at least many - don't think an omnipotent god has that sort of constraints put upon him/her by a human. It also assumes that man is somehow innately worthy of the gifts from god and this runs afoul of christian theology set out in other threads and too lengthy to go into any detail, here. The theology is that man is innately flawed and god doesn't "owe" him anything - God is the ultimate sovereign who can give and take away as he/she sees fit.

Some of the fundamentalist christian churches/sects teach that by virtue of jumping through certain hoops god has made a deal to do what they ask or provide blessings. In my research, that is a distinctively minority position in the overall christian landscape but you see a lot of that in some fundamentalist churches. In other churches, that is just this side of heresy for the reasons I started out with. To equate prayer to "fixing" things or asking whether it "works" is not the mainstream christian position although many christians end up treating prayer kind of like magic.

But to sum up, the idea that food, water and the like is some sort of "right" (in terms of religion) is one of the huge disconnects between people of faith and people not of faith.

Christianity in this country is, and always has been, a couple of generations away from going away. Young secular people, today, not only don't follow the faith, they honestly don't understand the teachings, the attitudes or way people who do think. They definitely try to understand but applying what they believe and how they see the world results in coming up with theories that rarely get it right - the concepts are just too foreign and fundamental. That is not meant as criticism - it is merely an observation that to understand the christian faith, you have to back up and start distinguishing the differences in world view and attitude from the last generation to even have a platform to understand the theology.

Dennis Heaton
05-12-2014, 12:22 PM
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NKJV)

If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

BBatesokc
05-12-2014, 12:32 PM
Matthew 6:1
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

Most prayer I see is public...and it is done so that people will notice. I am sorry, but those people who prayer before every meal, even at McDonald's, yeah that doesn't get ya anywhere. So what is the point of public prayer? It is to show off their righteousness or their right to Heaven. The sad part is, even if there was a God listening to these prayers, he says that they will not be rewarded. Therefore, you are just talking to yourself.

I have seen a lot of believers in Texas trying to pray for rain, in a very public way, and these are the same people that do not believe in climate change. So if your pray isn't working, why aren't you trying to figure out why?

As pretty much a nonbeliever, all I've got to say is I'll take the attitude of those who pray over their Big Mac over the attitude/mindset you're displaying in your posts any day.

As I've stated before, I'm often surrounded by those of faith (all different faiths). Some of them gather and literally pray for hours upon hours. Others simply pause in silence before eating a meal or to focus on the positive in their life or even to acknowledge how much they don't have control over what goes on around them. Regardless, I couldn't define any of their denominations unless they specifically told me. All I know is their common good and their common positive attitudes - attitudes I prefer to include in my circle of influence.

I've known many a faith hypocrite, but I certainly don't let those few allow me to paint them all with the same cynical brush.

I can't imagine seeing the world, let alone the faithful, through your eyes.

BBatesokc
05-12-2014, 12:39 PM
So you are saying prayer can fix things?

I absolutely think prayer can have a positive influence on 'things' (which is about as close to 'fixing things' as I can come). While I don't think their is some form of a God that is specifically listening to and answering prayer, I definitely think the focus and positive attitude that comes with real prayer influences outcomes in one's lives. Call it Karma, call it your ora, call it positive thinking... I personally think its all about the same and the world is better for it.

The people I know that practice some sort of faith are far happier than those people I know that not only reject all forms of faith but also maintain a pretty cynical attitude in general.

Of Sound Mind
05-12-2014, 01:01 PM
I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.


but denied to many

That seems to belie nature/natural laws.

White Peacock
05-12-2014, 01:03 PM
To the subject, I'm 100% in favor of the First Amendment and all that it entails (within moral reason*). It may make me gag to see mass showings of the Christian faith put on display, but as long as they're not infringing on other folks' rights, then they're fully within their own.

I learned as a teenager that if you have an alternate/controversial faith, it's best to keep it to yourself in certain parts of the world. Oklahoma is one of them. I learned this by way of harassment, threats, and assaults. Not from my peers, but from adults. So as I grew older, I learned not to wear my faith on my sleeve, given that not everybody shares the sentiment that I shared in the above paragraph. My experiences have indeed cemented my belief that people should be allowed to be left peacefully to their own devices as long as they're not hurting anyone.

Jim Kyle
05-12-2014, 01:10 PM
The people I know that practice some sort of faith are far happier than those people I know that not only reject all forms of faith but also maintain a pretty cynical attitude in general.The boffins who deal in systems research are fond of something called "the Pareto principle" which holds that in any complex situation, about 20% of the input controls about 80% of the output -- regardless of the variables involved!

Over the years this principle has been detected and confirmed in many situations.

And years ago, I came to the conclusion that it even applies to human interactions with other humans and with their environment. Specifically, I found that over time, about 10% of those I dealt with were inherently "good" folk, another 10% were "evil" (and as a police reporter, I moved in many of the same circles that you track today), and the remaining 80% simply reflected my own expectations back at me! The Pareto conclusion was that both cynicism and pollyannaism were just Pareto at work, and either mindset then influenced my outlook toward the remaining 80% who reflect my own outlook back to me. Thus I could find the world to be only 10% good, or 10% evil.

That's the point at which I truly became laid back and determined to expect the best from everyone until events proved otherwise. So what has this to do with prayer? To me, it's a form of applying the teachings, in practice. Yes, it's led to my being conned a few times -- but it has also led to some deep friendships, and definitely to a more relaxed way of life. And in my opinion, living the teachings is far more important than verbalizing them.

Prunepicker
05-12-2014, 01:35 PM
... Their God clearly states that it doesn't reach him if you do it among others.
Where does He say that? It's not to be found anywhere in the Bible.

Prunepicker
05-12-2014, 01:43 PM
... I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it
is a right to all.
Food, water and shelter aren't rights but you have the right to seek them.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 03:15 PM
Christianity in this country is, and always has been, a couple of generations away from going away. Young secular people, today, not only don't follow the faith, they honestly don't understand the teachings, the attitudes or way people who do think. They definitely try to understand but applying what they believe and how they see the world results in coming up with theories that rarely get it right - the concepts are just too foreign and fundamental. That is not meant as criticism - it is merely an observation that to understand the christian faith, you have to back up and start distinguishing the differences in world view and attitude from the last generation to even have a platform to understand the theology.

I totally agree with this statement. Though religion will always be around. The majority of the world has a belief system. It isn't going away in any of our lifetimes.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 03:18 PM
The people I know that practice some sort of faith are far happier than those people I know that not only reject all forms of faith but also maintain a pretty cynical attitude in general.

They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator. I really wish I had that type of faith. Trust me, me as a non-believer is hard. I was raised in the church and now I can stand seeing people I love totally ignore the world they live in.

Dubya61
05-12-2014, 03:20 PM
They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator. I really wish I had that type of faith. Trust me, me as a non-believer is hard. I was raised in the church and now I can['t?] stand seeing people I love totally ignore the world they live in.

Did I understand you right? Is my edit above correct?
Why do you say that believers ignore the world they live in?

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 03:23 PM
I can't imagine seeing the world, let alone the faithful, through your eyes.

This coming from a man that has done so much to show us the cruelty of human trafficking. I see humans slowly killing themselves by destroying the earth, and then praying to a God to help them, which they can only have hope that he exists.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 03:26 PM
Did I understand you right? Is my edit above correct?
Why do you say that believers ignore the world they live in?

yes, your edit is correct. Science is being ignored because their faith says God can control weather. They ignore contraception because God creates all living things and has a reason for it. They ignore common sense for Faith.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 03:45 PM
They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator.
Er... No.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 03:48 PM
Er... No.

They are happier because they don't take the blame. They believe they have done nothing wrong. They are happier because it is easy for them to deny it.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 03:52 PM
yes, your edit is correct. Science is being ignored because their faith says God can control weather. They ignore contraception because God creates all living things and has a reason for it. They ignore common sense for Faith.

Are you trying to say that this set of beliefs defines or is broadly shared by Christians? I don't see it and just for the record, plenty of scientific types are also Christian. Moreover, even the Catholics who are the biggest Christian denomination opposed to birth control in this country overwhelmingly use birth control. Your presumptions about what Christians believe beyond matters of faith are way off the mark. I have to wonder if your exposure to Christianity has been limited to a very limited and fundamentalist group of Believers. But even then, I've known plenty of fundamentalists who believe in birth control and mainstream science.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 03:53 PM
They are happier because they don't take the blame. They believe they have done nothing wrong. They are happier because it is easy for them to deny it.

Factor in the fundamental teaching on sin that nearly all Christians share and get back to me.

OkieBerto
05-12-2014, 04:33 PM
One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin. Also, some believe the crucifixion of Christ washed away all sins. It seems there are ways to get out of paying for those sins.

PennyQuilts
05-12-2014, 05:18 PM
One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin. Also, some believe the crucifixion of Christ washed away all sins. It seems there are ways to get out of paying for those sins.

Some believe their sin will be be covered so they are assured a place in heaven. However, No church that I know of, including many conservative churches like Southern Baptist or Assembly of God, teach that Baptism means man will no longer be a sinner. And many mainstream Christian churches do NOT preach once saved, always saved. All impose an ongoing obligation to confess and repent of their sin and many require good works as evidence of their changed heart. The Catholics are a whole different category of getting those sins forgiven.

You are mixing up a ticket into heaven (your sins won't keep you out) vs the fundamental obligation imposed on all Christians to search their soul on a continuous basis, confess their sins to god (and perhaps others) and repent (turn away from their sin). The notion that we are sinners and obligated to try to be a better, more godlike person is central to the Christian faith. You misunderstand if you think Christianity is about a free for all where believers are better than other people because they are forgiven their sins.

This is one if those basic theology things that is getting lost in translation. And that goes to the theology that you can't earn your way into heaven. Absent forgiveness, so the theology goes, no one gets in because sinners aren't allowed.

Few Christian believers behave to get into heaven. And few kick up their heels, sinning like mad, because they think they are going to heaven no matter what they do. The whole notion is illogical. People of faith try to be good people because that is the obligation placed upon them by their god/faith. You are attributing motivations that don't apply for the vast majority of believers.

Prunepicker
05-12-2014, 08:10 PM
One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin.
Wrong. Who said that?


Also, some believe the crucifixion of Christ washed away all sins. It seems
there are ways to get out of paying for those sins.
They may believe it but that's not true. Jesus' crucifixion was the final
sacrifice for our sins. In order to have our sins removes we must believe
that Jesus died for our sins.

I'm not sure where you get your information but it's very clear that it isn't
from the Bible.

zookeeper
05-12-2014, 08:14 PM
I highly recommend reading THE JEFFERSON BIBLE: What Thomas Jefferson Selected as THE LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH.
(http://www.amazon.com/JEFFERSON-Thomas-Jefferson-Selected-NAZARETH/dp/1936583224)
It is simply the words of Jesus Christ. An "all-red letter" version of the Bible. It was given to members of Congress after they were sworn into office until the last 1950's.

It gives you a new perspective on what Jesus of Nazareth himself had to say.

Prunepicker
05-12-2014, 08:16 PM
They are happier because they don't take the blame. They believe they have
done nothing wrong. They are happier because it is easy for them to deny it.
Not true. Not a single thing you said is true. I suggest you read the Bible
and learn what it says instead of relying upon making things up.

Would you discuss Shakespeare without reading what he wrote? According
to your replies the answer is yes. Why are you replying to something you
know nothing about? Seriously? That's intellectual bankruptcy.

Why would anyone try to debate something they know nothing about?

White Peacock
05-12-2014, 08:22 PM
Not true. Not a single thing you said is true. I suggest you read the Bible
and learn what it says instead of relying upon making things up.

Would you discuss Shakespeare without reading what he wrote? According
to your replies the answer is yes. Why are you replying to something you
know nothing about? Seriously? That's intellectual bankruptcy.

Why would anyone try to debate something they know nothing about?

In the interest of fairness, OkieBerto is not preaching the Bible; he's observing Christian behavior. You don't need to read a single word of the Bible in order to observe the behavior of those who claim faith in it, and undoubtedly the things that many of them say about their faith have no foundation in the book of their faith's founding. And although he's throwing up a straw man here and there, that is essentially the attitude many Christians have regarding their place in the world. It's less about their Christ, and more about their status as Christians, and all that they'd like that to mean.

You don't need Biblical citations to criticize modern Christian attitudes.

BBatesokc
05-13-2014, 06:20 AM
They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator. I really wish I had that type of faith. Trust me, me as a non-believer is hard. I was raised in the church and now I can stand seeing people I love totally ignore the world they live in.

What an arrogant and ignorant statement. You don't even know the people whom I'm referring to yet you pretend to know all about them. Your statements are every bit as hypocritical as those of faith you'd cast aside.

Some of the best Christian people I know live in far greater a reality than I'm guessing you ever have. They are happier because they have focus and purpose - a purpose that goes fear beyond your cynical outlook on the world.

I can't imagine how lonely your world is.

OkieBerto
05-13-2014, 07:00 AM
Now all those who think what I have been saying is ignorant and arrogant can feel what the minority of us non-believers feel. Not a day passes with out examples of good religious people and horrible religious people. The only difference is, they claim to be that way because of their beliefs. I am who I am because of Christianity. I was raised the same way most everyone on this thread was raised, in a church. Sometimes the faith doesn't stick.

It is very ironic to say someone with my views lives in a lonely world, when the people who I disagree with have to make up a creator just to not feel alone.

PennyQuilts
05-13-2014, 07:53 AM
Now all those who think what I have been saying is ignorant and arrogant can feel what the minority of us non-believers feel. Not a day passes with out examples of good religious people and horrible religious people. The only difference is, they claim to be that way because of their beliefs. I am who I am because of Christianity. I was raised the same way most everyone on this thread was raised, in a church. Sometimes the faith doesn't stick.

It is very ironic to say someone with my views lives in a lonely world, when the people who I disagree with have to make up a creator just to not feel alone.

I don't dispute that you seem traumatized by whatever but you are looking at the world through your own filter and assuming others have your same attitude and worldview. Most don't.
I left the church a long time ago out of frustration with the theology. I definitely don't share your presumptions about the attitudes and motivations of people of faith. You are describing the human condition and instead of embracing that the world is full of imperfect people, you are projecting your own sack of rocks and trying to find something to blame. The church isn't the problem nor did it convert humans into hypocritical, self centered beings. You've decided an enormous multitude of people are pretty scummy with oddball opinions and strange motivations without ever knowing them. That isn't reality based. It is almost all your projection of a twisted stereotype. What you have described as sort of normal Christian thought strikes most of us with exposure to Christians as peculiar, illogical and strange.

OkieBerto
05-13-2014, 08:12 AM
I don't dispute that you seem traumatized by whatever but you are looking at the world through your own filter and assuming others have your same attitude and worldview. Most don't.

I agree, that is why I used the word minority. Also, does it make you feel better if someone like me was traumatized by something? Just because my worldview is different doesn't mean I am traumatized or something horrible happened to me. It is actually the opposite. I had a very pleasant childhood in the church. I was not wronged by the church or any of the people who were in it. Nor the University I attended, which was a private Christian College. I am just someone with a different opinion, yet you see me as wrong. Why?


I left the church a long time ago out of frustration with the theology.

We have something in common.


What you have described as sort of normal Christian thought strikes most of us with exposure to Christians as peculiar, illogical and strange.

This is how most Christians I know would describe me as a non-believer. This is what I am getting at, I don't blame any of you for feeling the way you do about what I said. I admit it is a very one sided view and is totally ignorant of me to say, but this is an example of how Christians usually treat those who do not believe like them. They go to extremes and instead of trying to reason with someone, they call them lonely, arrogant, ignorant and hypocritical. And since right now you are the majority, the majority should take some blame for it.

Dubya61
05-13-2014, 09:14 AM
In the interest of fairness, OkieBerto is not preaching the Bible; he's observing Christian behavior. You don't need to read a single word of the Bible in order to observe the behavior of those who claim faith in it, and undoubtedly the things that many of them say about their faith have no foundation in the book of their faith's founding. And although he's throwing up a straw man here and there, that is essentially the attitude many Christians have regarding their place in the world. It's less about their Christ, and more about their status as Christians, and all that they'd like that to mean.

You don't need Biblical citations to criticize modern Christian attitudes.

I would like to pile onto this train of thought and concur. From what I understand, OkieBerto is not some outsider who misunderstands the premise. He or she clearly has had some indoctrination into modern Christian behavior and had come to the conclusion that it is not for him or her. Further, I think it's evident that this is not some petulant whim. It's obvious to me that it's the product of some well-thought out personal analysis. Those who disagree with OkieBerto are more than welcome to debate it, but I believe that OkieBerto has made these conclusions with due diligence.
While I disagree with some with regards to religion, spirituality and morality, often times these conclusions that my theological "opponents" have are not flippant and will probably not be dissuaded by talking points and rhetoric.