http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/djeqzpk0ae2mphx6nsrcwg.png

Source: Half in Illinois and Connecticut Want to Move Elsewhere (http://www.gallup.com/poll/168770/half-illinois-connecticut-move-elsewhere.aspx#1)

When asked: regardless if they would move, if they had the opportunity, would you like to move to another state, or would you like to stay in your current state?
Oklahoma was #36 in percentage of people wanting to move, is 30% yes, 69% no, 1% no opinion.

When asked: looking ahead, when looking ahead how likely is it you will move in the next 12 months is it {extremely likely, very likely, somewhat likely, not too likely, or not likely at all}
Oklahoma was #27 7% extremely/very likely, 6% somewhat likely, 85% not too/not at all likely

How nice fewer people want to get out of the state of Texas.

Yup. Anyone getting itchy feet might want to check out the stats before they head to a given location.

Interesting. I would have thought California and Ohio would be higher and North Carolina would be lower.

Interesting. I would have thought California and Ohio would be higher and North Carolina would be lower.

It might be Californians want their government officials to leave, I could see that being a higher number than wanting to leave themselves here too.

Some thoughts: I have retired friends in Ohio with extended family. They often talk about the rust belt wave and how tough it was with many middle class families losing their jobs and lifestyle. That's been awhile ago and for whatever reason, they've adjusted and many former factory workers either already left or began concentrating on going into skilled labor/trades. Certainly they encouraged their children in that direction. Ohio is no young state and it's proximity to Chicago and other large cities allow many of their young to leave home with little angst but move back when they get that out of their system. So many people have deep roots there. The states they butt up against that have high rates of wanting to move have their own problems and policies that might not spill over to a nearby state.

As to California, we always hear about how many hate it, that it has an anti business climate, is expensive, has a wacked out government, etc. I think we tend to hear more from struggling middle class professionals who want to leave to try to get ahead rather than the poor who flock there in droves. There is a very strong Hispanic population with no desire to abandon that area and leave friends and family. It is a beautiful state and outside the cities, has a great standard of living. I have a number of friends and relatives there and some stay because it's "home," I have some gay friends who like the welcome atmosphere (although many hate the state, otherwise) and some are just hoping something will fall in their lap that will take them elsewhere but feel no burning desire to make it happen. My niece is a law student out there (seems to be the family business!) and she loves it.

As for North Carolina, that surprised me, too. Beautiful state, nice climate and lots of jobs compared to other places and being an old state, deep family roots.

Most of the places with a high number of people who want to leave have big cities that drew people for jobs rather than being raised there. Big cities have wonderful things in terms of entertainment but they also are stressful, dirty, very expensive, loud, etc. They tend to provide more public assistance and thus draw the most poor and the most affluent. That quickly makes the col rise for the middle class and they look elsewhere unless good paying jobs are plentiful. Houston and Dallas are sprawled out where people can find homes they can afford and still get good paying jobs. Not all cities manage that. And some cities are so poorly managed and have such crappy school systems that despite their other good attributes, people who can, move away. If you are a professional, that usually means you chose another big city because that is where the work is. Tradesmen and skilled labor have a bit more flexibility.

The only thing that makes me ever want to leave Oklahoma is the summer time heat.

Well said PennyQuilts.

Interesting that taxes and cost of living weren't so much of a catalyst for moving. Business reasons by far was the most important reason to move. Lifestyle was only middle of the road.

The only thing that makes me ever want to leave Oklahoma is the summer time heat.

That is what vacations are for!

Interesting that taxes and cost of living weren't so much of a catalyst for moving. Business reasons by far was the most important reason to move. Lifestyle was only middle of the road.

Lifestyle is what you make it. Sure, places like Colorado have skiing, others have the coasts for recreation and fishing, but I've always found that most people I know are able to find activities to fill their time. I don't find it that surprising that work is the biggest reason for relocation.

That is what vacations are for!

4 month vacations? For me the worst months for Oklahoma heat are June-Sept.

Moving! Ain't nobody got time for that.

4 month vacations? For me the worst months for Oklahoma heat are June-Sept.

Really? I adore June and most of July. I even like the second half of September.

Lifestyle is what you make it. Sure, places like Colorado have skiing, others have the coasts for recreation and fishing, but I've always found that most people I know are able to find activities to fill their time. I don't find it that surprising that work is the biggest reason for relocation.

The downside to a lot of these lifestyle destinations like Colorado, SoCal, Florida, certain parts of the Atlantic seaboard, etc. is that everyone wants to move there with these idyllic images of perpetual paradise in their heads. A lot of these places have no real economic base and/or an outrageous COL. FWIW the most expensive place to live in the US is not NY or SF its Honolulu.

Obviously money isn't everything but jobs and the ability to make a living for one's self will always be the driving force behind the majority of moves.

The downside to a lot of these lifestyle destinations like Colorado, SoCal, Florida, certain parts of the Atlantic seaboard, etc. is that everyone wants to move there with these idyllic images of perpetual paradise in their heads. A lot of these places have no real economic base and/or an outrageous COL. FWIW the most expensive place to live in the US is not NY or SF its Honolulu.

Obviously money isn't everything but jobs and the ability to make a living for one's self will always be the driving force behind the majority of moves.

That's the issue with Charlotte. There are few places in this country that I would say have a better quality of life than Charlotte, but the economy is only ho-hum and people are still moving there in droves. A lot of people end up significantly underemployed as I was. That's when you have to decide whether career or lifestyle is more important. I am sure family and roots also play a part. Had my family not been in Oklahoma, I would have probably gone to Raleigh-Durham or the DC area.

I was brought up in San Francisco and San Diego; liked Arizona (4 years); looooooooved South Carolina (18 years); I like Oklahoma (not just because I have to be here) because I have had and do have the absolute best neighbors, and the cost of living is fantastic (1999 to present); and I hope to live the last chapter of my life along the coast of Oregon (Coos Bay or Astoria).

Man, I seriously wish I had a nickel for every time Charlotte has been mentioned on OKCTalk...

I wonder if results from the Gallup Poll would differ from those shown at the top of the thread . . .

Having lived in California now 20+ years, I can say that virtually everyone talks about leaving almost nobody does.

It sounds like a great idea just to head for someplace cheaper and with less traffic... And then you realize everywhere you look there are tons of tradeoffs (expensive places are expensive for a reason) and there is no utopia.

I've looked very hard at relocating to most major cities in the U.S., plus a few abroad. I may ultimately leave, but I haven't done it yet.


Almost took jobs in Seattle, Portland, Charlotte (yes, Charlotte), Bay Area and some others. Frankly these days, I'd be more inclined towards KC, Indy, Milwaukee or Pittsburgh. Really like the idea of older cities that have made a nice comeback.

. I may ultimately leave, but I haven't done it yet. Really like the idea of older cities that have made a nice comeback.

Ever consider Charleston, SC?

^

I don't like the South at all, which is one of the reasons I decided against Charlotte.


I love Minneapolis but it's crazy cold and snowy.

If you can stand the cold, Minneapolis offers a very vibrant, urban life and can legitimately be mentioned alongside places like Austin, Portland, and Denver.

And in my opinion, OKC is more genuinely Southern in culture than many of the urban centers on the Atlantic seaboard due to the fact they have had so many northern transplants. Oklahoma's Southernness is more undiluted. If you are adjusted to OKC then there should be no culture shock from places like Charleston, Columbia, Savannah, etc. Charlotte, thanks to their boom, has lost a lot of its Southernness.

^

I don't like the South at all, which is one of the reasons I decided against Charlotte...
I'm with you. "Southern hospitality" in general is a lie. It's still very clannish; a holdover from the people who originally settled there. Lots of nice words said to your face and not-so-nice behind your back too, according to friends who have lived in places like Memphis and Savannah.

And I'm sorry, the scars of slavery and Jim Crow are still evident, with a strong distrust and unease simmering right beneath the surface for a lot of people. You can often feel it in the air there; I was pretty shocked the first few times I traveled in the south. Sounds like Charlotte might be a little bit different thank to in-migration from other parts of the country.

In general I find that people in the midwest and more specifically plains states and those that border them, plus the southwest and mountain states, tend to be more nice/friendly than anywhere else in the country. In other words, "flyover states".

And in my opinion, OKC is more genuinely Southern in culture than many of the urban centers on the Atlantic seaboard due to the fact they have had so many northern transplants. Oklahoma's Southernness is more undiluted. If you are adjusted to OKC then there should be no culture shock from places like Charleston, Columbia, Savannah, etc. Charlotte, thanks to their boom, has lost a lot of its Southernness.

Depends strongly on which aspects of the Southern culture you're talking about and I don't care to get into the reasons I generally don't like the former confederate states.

That's OK. I did it for you.

I don't like the South at all...

Gotta share this with ya. Remember, I was a California boy. One of my first experiences in South Carolina took place in the scrambled egg capital of the world, Lamar, SC. My Son was on the 10 year old Dixie League All-Star Baseball Team. After his game, we went up to the food stand and ordered 2 chili dawgs and 2 cokes. The lady gave us 2 Dr. Peppers. I said, "we ordered coke." She replied, "Dr. Pepper is all we sell." We got our chili dawgs and went back to the bleachers to watch the game in progress. I took a bite of my chili dawg and discovered they had forgot to put the hot dog on the bun. Same with my Son's chili dawg. We went back to the food stand and I informed the lady they forgot to put a hot dog on our chili dawgs. She asked me, "did you ask for a hot dog?" I said, "What? I ordered a chili dawg!" Cost me 2 more dollars to get 2 hot dogs added to our chili dawgs.

That's OK. I did it for you.

To some degree.


I will say that even before I moved away from Oklahoma and had effectively never lived anywhere else, I could always feel a cultural shift just traveling to Arkansas. And it only increased as I headed south and east.

I've always had a flat accent and remember getting strange looks when people heard me speak; like I was a Connecticut Yankee or something.


I had a good friend in the FBI in Memphis and my buddies and I used to roadtrip there a lot, and that place seemed like a different planet. Always felt a bit uncomfortable there.

I remember interviewing for a job in Charlotte when I still lived in OKC and I literally had a hard time understanding some of the people, especially on the phone.

If I had a nickel for the times that I was sneered at for ordering UNsweetened tea at a restaurant... ...sometimes it's small things that make or break your opinion of a place.

To some degree.


I will say that even before I moved away from Oklahoma and had effectively never lived anywhere else, I could always feel a cultural shift just traveling to Arkansas. And it only increased as I headed south and east.

I've always had a flat accent and remember getting strange looks when people heard me speak; like I was a Connecticut Yankee or something.


I had a good friend in the FBI in Memphis and my buddies and I used to roadtrip there a lot, and that place seemed like a different planet. Always felt a bit uncomfortable there.

I remember interviewing for a job in Charlotte when I still lived in OKC and I literally had a hard time understanding some of the people, especially on the phone.

When reality shows based in your part of the world are subtitled for the rest of the country, you might have a problem succeeding in business and inter-personal relations with folks from elsewhere.

.sometimes it's small things that make or break your opinion of a place.
And sometimes bigger things. My buddies and I drove to the 1968 Orange Bowl and stopped in Selma to call our parents. We found a restaurant and parked. This local guy was leaning against the corner of the building watching us. He had a rifle cradled in his arms. The pay phone was in the "colored section" of the restaurant. We could not wait to get out of that place. We were hungry but decided we could drive all the way to Miami if we had to rather than eat there.

Depends strongly on which aspects of the Southern culture you're talking about and I don't care to get into the reasons I generally don't like the former confederate states.

I don't seem much resemblance to Oklahoma in the DC area and I agree with the poster that the culture changes fairly quickly as you move across states. For the most part, I loved the people in Virginia in terms of friends, neighbors and colleagues. What I DIDN'T like was the nasty, lazy, sullen attitude of clerks and employees in convenience stores, grocery stores, etc. It is very different than around here and just south of DC, you are lucky if you get someone to make eye contact with you. I made a few road trips towards North Carolina from Northern Virginia and practically by the mile, people got nicer and friendlier with smiles and didn't make you feel like they hated looking at you.

I had friends from New England visiting a few years ago and we went somewhere where there was a line. One of my friends was downright nasty to an old woman with a cane who made a wrong turn and ended up caught on stairs and had to break through our line to get out the door. I mean, the woman was frail and clearly scared as she labored down the stairs only to be told she was going the wrong way and NO I won't move so you can get out the "in" door. Later, when I was talking to a woman in line behind me who had her hands full with some toddlers, I told her I would tell her when the line started moving again (she couldn't see it from where she was standing). The nasty friend actually chewed me out and told me that "You don't owe her that information." I just looked at her and said, "Well, that's true. But in Oklahoma, people are actually nice to each other." I couldn't/wouldn't stand living in a place where people had that attitude.

Mr. Urbanized,

The farther south you travel, the more distinctly are iced tea styles. In Eastern Oklahoma, for example, there are two types of iced tea: pre-sweetened, and really pre-sweetened. Oklahoma City, by comparision, is entirely different. Pre-sweetened tea is rarely served, in my opinion, and iced tea is served with a slice of orange, rather than a twist of lemon.

I have never been a tea drinker (tastes like grass flavored water, to me) but husband is a big "unsweet" tea fan. Unsweet just seems like an odd name for a tea that is already sweet enough that it doesn't need added sugar.

I never heard of orange slices in tea but I guess it's good.

And sometimes bigger things. My buddies and I drove to the 1968 Orange Bowl and stopped in Selma to call our parents. We found a restaurant and parked. This local guy was leaning against the corner of the building watching us. He had a rifle cradled in his arms. The pay phone was in the "colored section" of the restaurant. We could not wait to get out of that place. We were hungry but decided we could drive all the way to Miami if we had to rather than eat there.

We, my wife and I, had a similar experience in the early 1980's in Meridian, Mississippi on our way to our new assignment in South Carolina. All I knew about the South was what I saw on TV or read in the newspaper/magazines. In Sumter (pronounced Sumtah) the railroad tracks really were the "dividing line" in a town of 30,000 residents.

To some degree.


I will say that even before I moved away from Oklahoma and had effectively never lived anywhere else, I could always feel a cultural shift just traveling to Arkansas. And it only increased as I headed south and east.

I've always had a flat accent and remember getting strange looks when people heard me speak; like I was a Connecticut Yankee or something.


I had a good friend in the FBI in Memphis and my buddies and I used to roadtrip there a lot, and that place seemed like a different planet. Always felt a bit uncomfortable there.

I remember interviewing for a job in Charlotte when I still lived in OKC and I literally had a hard time understanding some of the people, especially on the phone.

I've lived in Little Rock and have spent considerable time in Memphis and in Charleston SC. I personally think OKC is very much like Memphis but without the blues legacy, racial tension, and 100 ft tall oaks. The two cities share a lot more in common than they are different. Both have a blue collar and gritty vibe. Memphis' historic urban stock dwarfs OKC being that they never had an urban renewal disaster, but outside of Beale St just about any streetscape there could be in OKC and vice versa. Oklahoma is a Southern state through and through and a lot of people, even in OKC, speak with thick Southern drawls.

If there is one thing that makes OKC different from Memphis, Birmingham, or name any other Southern city, its the fact this city has a smaller African-American population relative to its size and there is less racial tension.

I don't seem much resemblance to Oklahoma in the DC area and I agree with the poster that the culture changes fairly quickly as you move across states. For the most part, I loved the people in Virginia in terms of friends, neighbors and colleagues. What I DIDN'T like was the nasty, lazy, sullen attitude of clerks and employees in convenience stores, grocery stores, etc. It is very different than around here and just south of DC, you are lucky if you get someone to make eye contact with you. I made a few road trips towards North Carolina from Northern Virginia and practically by the mile, people got nicer and friendlier with smiles and didn't make you feel like they hated looking at you.


On my last trip to visit family in Memphis I couldn't believe how rude and nasty some of the retail workers were. I had a few surly workers in OKC but I never heard a clerk be on the phone the entire length of my transaction talking to her friend while breaking just long enough to tell me my total. That happened at a CVS in South Memphis. Another time we were in a restaurant and when my mom asked for a refill the waitress belted out "Wait! Don't you see I'm busy?" The only time in my life I never left a tip.

I love to visit the city but really I can only do 4 days max there. I can't put my finger on that place but there is something very "off" with Memphis. I feel like once you go west of Little Rock, the attitudes aren't as negative, the feeling in the air isn't as heavy, etc. But then again, Oklahoma and Texas really aren't the south. They are heavily influenced by southern culture but its just different.

I love to visit the city but really I can only do 4 days max there. I can't put my finger on that place but there is something very "off" with Memphis. I feel like once you go west of Little Rock, the attitudes aren't as negative, the feeling in the air isn't as heavy, etc. But then again, Oklahoma and Texas really aren't the south. They are heavily influenced by southern culture but its just different.

I agree with all you said. We kind of joke about it at my house but we take frequent trips back east and while I love seeing my friends and family back east, and it is certainly very beautiful, we always heave a huge sigh of relief once we get west of the Mississippi. It is just different.

Oklahoma is a Southern state through and through.

Absolutely false, as has been noted repeatedly in this thread.

If there is one thing that makes OKC different from Memphis, Birmingham, or name any other Southern city, its the fact...

If I may finish that sentence for ya..."It's the fact that South Carolina Pork BBQ is the best in the entire United States!" :-)

If I had a nickel for the times that I was sneered at for ordering UNsweetened tea at a restaurant... ...sometimes it's small things that make or break your opinion of a place.

Go to Connecticut and ask for a chicken fried steak. They look at you like you are from another planet.

I have never been a tea drinker (tastes like grass flavored water, to me) but husband is a big "unsweet" tea fan. Unsweet just seems like an odd name for a tea that is already sweet enough that it doesn't need added sugar.

I never heard of orange slices in tea but I guess it's good.

Lemon slices are for tea, orange slices are for Blue Moon beer.

Go to Connecticut and ask for a chicken fried steak. They look at you like you are from another planet.

Seriously...this kind of stuff happens everywhere, not sure why the south is unfairly being knocked here (the race thing excluded). People are dicks in the NE/Mid-Atlantic.

Seriously...this kind of stuff happens everywhere, not sure why the south is unfairly being knocked here (the race thing excluded). People are dicks in the NE/Mid-Atlantic.

I think the point is to show that Oklahoma is in many ways quite different than the South, as the contrary point was raised a couple of times in this thread.

I haven't been to every state but of the ones I've been to the most unfriendly jerks were in New Jersey.

Go to Connecticut and ask for a chicken fried steak. They look at you like you are from another planet.

My ex-wife, born and raised in Oklahoma City, had never had Chicken Fried Steak before she met me. We were in our 40's when we got married. I taught her how to make it, Southern Style. She ended up turning out a better Chicken Fried Steak than I did. But, I got the cast iron skillet in the divorce!

I think the point is to show that Oklahoma is in many ways quite different than the South, as the contrary point was raised a couple of times in this thread.

Oh yeah, Oklahoma is not "the south."

"Oklahoma is a border region, neither North nor South, East nor West, neither all humid nor all arid, but rather like an old-fashioned quilt, made of many pieces, some complementary and some contrasting."


SETTLEMENT PATTERNS (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/s/se024.html)

IMMIGRATION (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/i/im001.html)

Oklahoma Emigration and Immigration | Learn | FamilySearch.org (http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Oklahoma_Emigration_and_Immigration)

Go to Connecticut and ask for a chicken fried steak. They look at you like you are from another planet.

Entirely different. I would have the good sense to not order a chicken-fried steak in Connecticut, where they not only don't offer it, they probably don't even know what it is. If I did make that mistake I suspect they would be more puzzled than derisive. All over the south just about everyplace has both sweet and unsweetened tea available; they just WANT you to drink sweet tea and often make a habit of rudely calling you out if you order it without sweetener. They MAKE A POINT of making you feel like you don't belong. If it is something that is offered on the menu, I don't expect to be insulted for ordering it.

Also, I agree with the point that (outside of the south) you shouldn't have to specify "unsweet". It's either tea or sweet tea. In the south it makes sense to specify it since the majority drinks the other type.

I don't have a problem with the fact that sweet is preferred in the south, and I have no problem specifying "unsweet" when I'm there; I just don't like being made to feel like an asshole for ordering something that they offer and likely regularly serve. To me it is indicative of character that they do so.

I haven't been to every state but of the ones I've been to the most unfriendly jerks were in New Jersey.

But see, I don't have the same problem with that. Jersey owns it; even celebrates it. Nobody goes there expecting to be treated in a welcoming, hospitable manner. The South cultivates this myth of southern hospitality and gentility, but the reality is actually quite different.

As has been debated many times before (here and elsewhere) Oklahoma is not easy to pin down in terms of region.

Not the South (that's Alabama!), not the Midwest (that's Michigan!), not the Southwest (that's Arizona!), etc., etc.

Southern Central Great Plains is the most accurate but no one is going to use that. As negative as it is, "Flyover States" evokes the most central part of the country which at least gets people thinking about the proper general area.


FWIW, I can tell you that most people here in California think of Oklahoma as the Midwest more than anything.

One of my good friends from the East Coast always introduces me this way (because he knows it pisses me off): "This is Pete. He's from one of those big rectangular states somewhere in the middle."

But see, I don't have the same problem with that. Jersey owns it; even celebrates it. Nobody goes there expecting to be treated in a welcoming, hospitable manner. The South cultivates this myth of southern hospitality and gentility, but the reality is actually quite different.

The distinction is...The South, and then there is...The Deep South.

Southern United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States)

7713

But see, I don't have the same problem with that. Jersey owns it; even celebrates it. Nobody goes there expecting to be treated in a welcoming, hospitable manner. The South cultivates this myth of southern hospitality and gentility, but the reality is actually quite different.

That really surprises me based on my own experience and just about everyone I know. Consistently. I have heard people absolutely marvel at how friendly and welcoming southern people are - often from northerners. I've never heard that about the northeast/midAtlantic beyond the routine, "they weren't nearly as rude as I expected." You're not, by any chance from New Jersey, are you? ;)

As has been debated many times before (here and elsewhere) Oklahoma is not easy to pin down in terms of region.

Not the South (that's Alabama!), not the Midwest (that's Michigan!), not the Southwest (that's Arizona!), etc., etc.

Southern Central Great Plains is the most accurate but no one is going to use that. As negative as it is, "Flyover States" evokes the most central part of the country which at least gets people thinking about the proper general area.


FWIW, I can tell you that most people here in California think of Oklahoma as the Midwest more than anything.

One of my good friends from the East Coast always introduces me this way (because he knows it pisses me off): "This is Pete. He's from one of those big rectangular states somewhere in the middle."
I just say Southern Plains but hasten to add we have 11 separate Eco regions and if you get off the interstate, you can actually see them.

... You're not, by any chance from New Jersey, are you? ;)

Nope, Kansas/Oklahoma my whole life. And i know quite a few people who have had the same experiences I have had, as apparently some in this thread have also. Perhaps you and your friends were fortunate enough to not be exposed to the other side of the veneer...

Nope, Kansas/Oklahoma my whole life. And i know quite a few people who have had the same experiences I have had, as apparently some in this thread have also. Perhaps you and your friends were fortunate enough to not be exposed to the other side of the veneer...

You'll have to explain the other side of the veneer because I prefer to be honest and open about things rather than coy. What in the world are you talking about?

As has been debated many times before (here and elsewhere) Oklahoma is not easy to pin down in terms of region.

Not the South (that's Alabama!), not the Midwest (that's Michigan!), not the Southwest (that's Arizona!), etc., etc.

The thing is, Oklahoma is nothing like Michigan. It's nothing like Arizona. But it IS culturally similar to Alabama. Take a trip east to Fort Smith, Arkansas. Fort Smith really feels like a suburb of OKC. Once you get to Little Rock you start getting into more of the racial tension, but the culture is still very similar. It is very different when you go up to Indiana or Minnesota. Go to Utah or Arizona or New Mexico and its like another world compared to Oklahoma. Oklahoma is a Southern state and OKC is a Southern city. Any midwestern and Southwestern influence there may be in this state is minuscule compared to the predominant Southern culture.

Being similar in some respects to the South does not make Oklahoma part of it.

I have never, ever heard anyone from Oklahoma say they are from the South or that they are a Southerner. Never.

Hello all! I grew up in Oklahoma City but I'm originally from southwest Oklahoma. I have always thought of Oklahoma as "The South" and until relatively recently had never really looked into the question of what region our state belongs in. To be honest it shocked me how some people could be so passionate that Oklahoma doesn't belong with the South, and so I've done some very amateur research into the question.

If anyone is interested in giving me their 2 cents about Oklahoma, I would be thrilled to hear it!

Edit: Conversely, if anyone is interested in mine, I would be more than happy to post some of what I've found (mainly historical stuff).