View Full Version : MAPS 4 Brainstorming



Pages : [1] 2

David
02-28-2014, 10:37 AM
Assuming I have my timelines right, the MAPS 3 tax started being collected on April 1, 2010, and will expire on December 31, 2018. Roughly speaking, we are about halfway through the collection period, but I think it would be a good idea to start roughing out some ideas to put forward for the MAPS 4 discussion starts on a wider level. Here is what I have been thinking so far:


Oklahoma River Velodome

This is primarily based on the ideas being presented in this thread (http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/32529-okc-net-zero-velodrome-dream-thesis-ou-grad-student.html). The Oklahoma River is one of the crown jewels of the entire MAPS project, and I think we need to keep doubling down on the sports and athletic infrastructure being built there. This project could give us yet another world class facility.


Public Infrastructure for Fiber Internet Service

Let's face it: we will not be getting Google Fiber any time soon, but why wait for Google? Nothing about their approach to building and running these networks is a secret. There may be opposition from the local internet providers, so the right approach here might be a public/private partnership with Cox or someone similar to cut that off at the head--plus that would give us someone to actually run the system.


Streetcar Phase 2

This one is fairly obvious in my mind, the streetcar committee already has plans for future routes, all we need to do is come up with the cash to build them.


So, any other ideas?

betts
02-28-2014, 12:10 PM
We've talked about doing something for neighborhoods and I've been thinking about that. The old neighborhoods have delightful old retail spaces like the Plaza, the Paseo and Capitol Hill that can serve as a community nidus. Thinking about those, I realized how poorly new neighborhoods are planned to allow a community gathering place. We can't build charming little retail areas with MAPS, but maybe we could create gathering places in existing parks - create community gardens with water and perhaps arbors with tables and chairs and a site for a small restaurant or snack bar adjacent. I'm just thinking about this so may have better ideas later.

bchris02
02-28-2014, 12:18 PM
I think more sidewalks, neighborhood parks, and beautification is a must. Each urban district should have its own theme with ornamental streetlights/stoplights, statues, public art, etc. People want to live in a visually attractive city and outside of a few places OKC has a very long way to go. I do like the idea of a Maps 4 Neighborhoods that incorporates these things.

warreng88
02-28-2014, 12:26 PM
Here is a poll I started several months ago to give you a start to ideas:

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/36221-what-would-take-you-vote-maps-iv.html

I think city-wide transit would be the biggest thing. I'm talking about buses, sidewalks, bike lanes (not trails), streetcar and an RTA, but that would be a bigger/regional (duh) issue. Also, it has been brought up that redoing some of the parks in the neighborhoods would be high on that list. Something for everyone, everywhere. I don't think another MAPS will pass if they focus is on DT, although it wouldn't bother me at all.

When I say buses, streetcar, RTA, etc, I mean the purchase of the actualy items, not O&M.

Midtowner
02-28-2014, 01:29 PM
We should build a spaceship and be the first city with a presence on the moon.

Plutonic Panda
02-28-2014, 01:50 PM
I think street car expansion would be good, but I'd really to see some separate packages for stuff. Have a transportation package for light-rail and street car expansion. This could be valued over a billion dollars.

Include MAPS4 at or around with 800 millions dollars worth of projects and an additional MAPS4Neighborhoods sub package at 500 million dollars which is general beautification, updating parks, new sidewalks and trails etc. A new GObond package will take of any streets that need widening to 4-6 lanes and added medians and such.

Now if we just get a rail division established for the state, we could work on commuter and hsr, and get ODOT to take out loans on highway construction, we could really achieve a lot.

Plutonic Panda
02-28-2014, 01:57 PM
BTW, I say MAPS4 should have these following things


Oklahoma River Velodome
Miniature 200-300 ft. high artificial mountain along the river for mountain biking
highway beautification
oklahoma river beautification including the river further down and removing the ugly rocky edges
renovating the state fair adding a mono-rail system and renovating the space needle(making it 1,500ft. tall and adding the world first glass restaurant)
add a slow moving river tram service and pedestrian bridges over the river
lower brick town redevelopment project(redevelop entire lower brick town to new urbanist standards with removing the parking lots and turning them into multi-use mid rise)

Plutonic Panda
02-28-2014, 02:00 PM
Transportation package should include


500 million dollars for a street car expansion
500 million dollars to start a light-rail(this could either run from the airport to rental car site(not yet built) to future convention center or start the adventure district line)

Bellaboo
02-28-2014, 02:11 PM
How about building an endowment fund for future ops and maintenance for what's been built so far.

Community storm shelters strategically placed in high occupancy areas.

Connecting commuter rail.

David
02-28-2014, 02:20 PM
Here is a poll I started several months ago to give you a start to ideas:

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/36221-what-would-take-you-vote-maps-iv.html

I think city-wide transit would be the biggest thing. I'm talking about buses, sidewalks, bike lanes (not trails), streetcar and an RTA, but that would be a bigger/regional (duh) issue. Also, it has been brought up that redoing some of the parks in the neighborhoods would be high on that list. Something for everyone, everywhere. I don't think another MAPS will pass if they focus is on DT, although it wouldn't bother me at all.

When I say buses, streetcar, RTA, etc, I mean the purchase of the actualy items, not O&M.

Whoops, when I was searching for a similar thread earlier I looked for MAPS 4 but didn't think to search for MAPS IV.

bchris02
02-28-2014, 02:26 PM
I would like to see a space needle constructed downtown added to the skyline rather than on the fairgrounds. Lets do it like Calgary, Canada.

Plutonic Panda
02-28-2014, 02:30 PM
How about building an endowment fund for future ops and maintenance for what's been built so far.

Community storm shelters strategically placed in high occupancy areas.

Connecting commuter rail.I say no to community storm shelters..... all new construction should have a storm shelter included, esp. schools, apartment complexes, and new homes.

Plutonic Panda
02-28-2014, 02:31 PM
I would like to see a space needle constructed downtown added to the skyline rather than on the fairgrounds. Lets do it like Calgary, Canada.I wouldn't... I think the fair grounds is the best person.

catch22
03-01-2014, 06:04 PM
My MAPS4 would include:


$100 million dollar streetcar expansion. 23rd street, OUHSC, and Plaza
$250 million for NW expressway light rail. 23rd and Classen to NW Expressway, then NW Expressway to 63rd street.
$200 million for metro-wide sidewalk and walkability improvements
$20 million for bus stop improvements (~750k per route)
$80 million for commuter rail improvements (stops or rail infrastructure) inside OKC city limits.
$150 million in neighborhood specific improvements.


$800,000,000

Mine wouldn't pass because it's very focused on transit. In a ultra-conservative city I don't think an $800 million dollar transit focused tax would pass.

But one can dream.

bchris02
03-01-2014, 06:20 PM
My MAPS4 would include:


$100 million dollar streetcar expansion. 23rd street, OUHSC, and Plaza
$250 million for NW expressway light rail. 23rd and Classen to NW Expressway, then NW Expressway to 63rd street.
$200 million for metro-wide sidewalk and walkability improvements
$20 million for bus stop improvements (~750k per route)
$80 million for commuter rail improvements (stops or rail infrastructure) inside OKC city limits.
$150 million in neighborhood specific improvements.


$800,000,000

Mine wouldn't pass because it's very focused on transit. In a ultra-conservative city I don't think an $800 million dollar transit focused tax would pass.

But one can dream.

I like this idea, except I would build the light rail from downtown towards Memorial/Edmond rather than NWX. I am totally with you on sidewalks, especially south of 23rd. What's amazing to me is that many historic OKC neighborhoods built even in days before the sub-urbanization of America, such as the neighborhoods just south of Shepherd Mall, do not have sidewalks. I haven't seen that in any other city. I definitely think its past due for OKC to have a reliable bus system. Mention this though and people will look bewildered and say "who in their right mind would ride the bus?"

I don't think such a transit oriented Maps4 would pass though in OKC. I would scrap the steetcar expansion and the commuter rail improvement and replace it with something people in Deer Creek would support.

catch22
03-01-2014, 06:23 PM
Classen and NWX both have wide medians that can fit two tracks in. Memorial Rd is about 17 miles north of downtown, while 63rd is 6 miles. People in Edmond or N OKC. can take commuter rail into the city.

Urban Pioneer
03-01-2014, 09:15 PM
Don't forget the "tornado wall"!

ljbab728
03-01-2014, 10:22 PM
I like this idea, except I would build the light rail from downtown towards Memorial/Edmond rather than NWX. I am totally with you on sidewalks, especially south of 23rd. What's amazing to me is that many historic OKC neighborhoods built even in days before the sub-urbanization of America, such as the neighborhoods just south of Shepherd Mall, do not have sidewalks. I haven't seen that in any other city. I definitely think its past due for OKC to have a reliable bus system. Mention this though and people will look bewildered and say "who in their right mind would ride the bus?"

I don't think such a transit oriented Maps4 would pass though in OKC. I would scrap the steetcar expansion and the commuter rail improvement and replace it with something people in Deer Creek would support.

I don't like it because it neglects the Capitol Hill or southside area.

bchris02
03-01-2014, 11:20 PM
I don't like it because it neglects the Capitol Hill or southside area.

I agree that Capitol Hill has a tremendous amount of potential, but does it need MAPS assistance other than maybe an extension of the streetcar there? I am also sure the neighborhood specific improvements could have some things for Capitol Hill.

soonerguru
03-01-2014, 11:44 PM
Transit and beautification. I would be thrilled with both. This city needs to look better.

ljbab728
03-01-2014, 11:45 PM
I agree that Capitol Hill has a tremendous amount of potential, but does it need MAPS assistance other than maybe an extension of the streetcar there? I am also sure the neighborhood specific improvements could have some things for Capitol Hill.
I'm referring specifically about transit and there was not mention at all about that for the south side.. A large part of Capitol Hill does have sidewalks but I'm sure many need repair and I suspect that parks could benefit, also.

trousers
03-02-2014, 07:51 AM
Uhhhhh....velodome? Sorry but I don't think that's an idea that is really going to get city wide traction.

David
03-02-2014, 10:57 AM
Uhhhhh....velodome? Sorry but I don't think that's an idea that is really going to get city wide traction.

Would you have expected a rowing or kayaking venue on the river to gain city-wide traction?

trousers
03-02-2014, 11:13 AM
Would you have expected a rowing or kayaking venue on the river to gain city-wide traction?
Nope I sure wouldn't have but I see this next MAPS vote being the most contentious one yet. I just don't think spending a large chunk of money on something like a velodome is where the next MAPS should go. I think that kind of project just reduces the chance of it being passed.
You think that police, fire, high noon, etc have put up a fight so far? Hey everybody we're spending $XXX on a fancy bike track on the river.

bchris02
03-02-2014, 07:46 PM
This city needs to look better.

+10,000

OKC is probably the ugliest city visually I have ever been in anywhere and I have been all over the US. Climate can't be used as an excuse. Dallas has a slightly better climate but its overall the same yet there is a night and day difference between the visual appeal of the average Dallas neighborhood and the average OKC neighborhood. Desert, blue collar cities like El Paso are more visually appealing than OKC. There are a few exceptions here of course. Parts of downtown are attractive as well as Auto Alley, the Plaza, and Classen Ten Penn. Of course the Paseo is a visually attractive neighborhood. A fast majority of the city though is just ugly. I don't think the issue can be solved by a MAPS though. I think some MAPS money could go towards various things to jump start neighborhood improvements but in the end the free market, better planning, and/or zoning is going to have to be the change.

betts
03-05-2014, 03:21 PM
Actually, all the old neighborhoods have a lot of charm. Even Classen Ten Penn, fixed up, could be charming. Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Gatewood, Edgemere, Crown Heights, Putnam Heights: I love the architecture in these neighborhoods. The problems started in the 50s and 60s with the ranch house, IMO. That is one ugly style of house and it hung on until the 60s and 70s, which had an even uglier unnameable style that you can see in Quail Creek and neighborhoods started at that time. Then we got into what is called the "North Dallas style", which is a little bit of a take on the more attractive styles of the teens through early 40s. I always thought the newer neighborhoods suffered from lack of sidewalks and structured trees planted near the sidewalks, which gives you the charming tree-lined streets that many of us admire. Especially in the 60s and 70s around here, people started to get creative with their landscaping, or worshipped the lawn so much that they didn't want to mar it with trees. So, as the houses aged, you didn't get growth of trees along the street to soften the ugliness.

Just the facts
03-05-2014, 03:38 PM
I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.

OKCRT
03-05-2014, 03:50 PM
I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.

Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

Achilleslastand
03-05-2014, 03:56 PM
Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

Please explain in detail how the aforementioned areas will reap the rewards of a strong downtown?

betts
03-05-2014, 04:00 PM
If we get rail transit between Edmond and Norman, MWC and Yukon or the airport, if you put stops near Britton, 23rd, Capitol Hill, Stockyards you won't have to give them money. They'll get TOD that trumps anything the taxpayers can do. That might be the best argument for the next tax to be a dedicated tax for transit.

warreng88
03-05-2014, 04:01 PM
I would think the majority of MAPS 4 (if presented at all) would be transit oriented and would pair with the 2017 General Obligation bond. The MAPS 3 tax is up December 31, 2017. The 2007 GO Bond was done in December as well. The GO Bond would take care of streets, sidewalks, trails and other infrastructure. MAPS 4 could focus more on more streetcar (possibly to Capital Hill), bus upgrades (if not done already), the transportation hub expansion, etc. I just don't see another MAPS passing if it is not for transit and focused too much on DT.

king183
03-05-2014, 04:15 PM
Assuming I have my timelines right, the MAPS 3 tax started being collected on April 1, 2010, and will expire on December 31, 2018. Roughly speaking, we are about halfway through the collection period, but I think it would be a good idea to start roughing out some ideas to put forward for the MAPS 4 discussion starts on a wider level. Here is what I have been thinking so far:



MAPS 3 ends December 2017, not 2018, so we're are closer to the end of the program and the beginning of the campaign for the next than a lot of people realize. I would imagine the planning for MAPS 4 would begin in 2015 and a campaign to begin forming in early 2016, approximately two years from now.

Urbanized
03-05-2014, 05:18 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't let the tax expire and give the citizenry a break for a year or more while projects are wrapped and enthusiasm builds for the brand again, much as they did after the "Finish MAPs Right" extension of the first MAPs expired in '99.

One of the key features that has helped maintain the MAPs brand is the clear understanding that it is not a permanent tax and is very project-driven. The knock among some on MAPs 3 (before the criticism descended into just plain bitter and divisive politics) was that it was "a tax in search of projects." I don't believe that, as I think a number of them were critical for OKC and others will be very nice additions, but letting it expire and allowing folks to start clamoring for specific projects could perhaps fend off any citizen fatigue.

David
03-05-2014, 07:10 PM
MAPS 3 ends December 2017, not 2018, so we're are closer to the end of the program and the beginning of the campaign for the next than a lot of people realize. I would imagine the planning for MAPS 4 would begin in 2015 and a campaign to begin forming in early 2016, approximately two years from now.

Ahh, thanks. I wasn't sure if I was doing the math on that correctly.

gopokes88
03-05-2014, 10:22 PM
I like the transit ideas. I think maps 4 needs to be core/outer core/suburb focused if you want a maps 5 (which will probably include a new thunder arena, heck maps 4 might. The peake turns 25 in 2024.) The suburbs will need to see a direct benefit from these to keep them voting for them. Sidewalks, beautification, and light rail/street car expansion would all be worthwhile.

soonerguru
03-06-2014, 12:25 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't let the tax expire and give the citizenry a break for a year or more while projects are wrapped and enthusiasm builds for the brand again, much as they did after the "Finish MAPs Right" extension of the first MAPs expired in '99.

One of the key features that has helped maintain the MAPs brand is the clear understanding that it is not a permanent tax and is very project-driven. The knock among some on MAPs 3 (before the criticism descended into just plain bitter and divisive politics) was that it was "a tax in search of projects." I don't believe that, as I think a number of them were critical for OKC and others will be very nice additions, but letting it expire and allowing folks to start clamoring for specific projects could perhaps fend off any citizen fatigue.

I see your point, and I certainly understand why the politicos may want to do this, but it would be a mistake, IMO. The bottom line is that MAPS 4 will probably pass just like the other ones. Why waste a whole year?

soonerguru
03-06-2014, 12:27 AM
Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

I don't think the politics are there to do it this way. Not saying we should ignore downtown in the next MAPS iteration, but the focus needs to be on inner-city and outer-loop neighborhood improvement and transit.

Urban Pioneer
03-06-2014, 07:31 AM
I doubt they will let the tax lapse. Several Council members have their eyes on it eager for "their turn" for greater investment in other areas. Also, we are very close on going to each city with Regional Transit Authority framework.

I suspect this MAPS will be "MAPS for corridors"- transit, beautification, and economic development. There will also probably be more investment in the Oklahoma River area as well as the work they have done sets us up for larger national and international events.

The other factor in all this is the 2019 GO Bond issue as well. If the Council is smart, they will negotiate and plan the $1.6 billion that these two votes could provide together through a comprehensive plan.

Just the facts
03-06-2014, 08:57 AM
I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

With downtown approaching critical mass for self-sustainability OKC needs to start rebuilding the traditional neighborhoods I listed. Money for these areas could be used any number of ways and what works in Capitol Hill might not work in the Plaza district. Money could be used for street-scapes, to help remodel buildings, direct subsidy payments to retailers, seed money for a TIF district, establishment of neighborhood based transit, connection to rail based mass transit, or any number of other uses.

As an example, Britton could use the money to build a train station and town center to be on the OKC-Edmond commuter rail line and Capitol Hill could use the money to help fund residential development and mass transit to downtown.

king183
03-06-2014, 11:35 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't let the tax expire and give the citizenry a break for a year or more while projects are wrapped and enthusiasm builds for the brand again, much as they did after the "Finish MAPs Right" extension of the first MAPs expired in '99.

One of the key features that has helped maintain the MAPs brand is the clear understanding that it is not a permanent tax and is very project-driven. The knock among some on MAPs 3 (before the criticism descended into just plain bitter and divisive politics) was that it was "a tax in search of projects." I don't believe that, as I think a number of them were critical for OKC and others will be very nice additions, but letting it expire and allowing folks to start clamoring for specific projects could perhaps fend off any citizen fatigue.

I doubt this would happen, but if it did, it would be a major mistake. One of the key selling points about previous extensions was that it was not a tax increase, as it simply maintains the rate currently in place. If it were to expire and be brought up a year later, MAPs opponents would be able to rally opposition by arguing it is a legit tax increase. That could be deadly, depending on the political and economic atmosphere at the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Urbanized
03-06-2014, 05:29 PM
I doubt this would happen, but if it did, it would be a major mistake. One of the key selling points about previous extensions was that it was not a tax increase, as it simply maintains the rate currently in place. If it were to expire and be brought up a year later, MAPs opponents would be able to rally opposition by arguing it is a legit tax increase. That could be deadly, depending on the political and economic atmosphere at the time...

It (expiration) has already happened once before, with no adverse effects. The MAPs tax expired in 1999 and remained off for more than a year before MAPs for Kids brought it back. It would not be negatively co-opted with any success if they did it again. In fact, it would be an example of delivering on promises.

That said, if a compelling case can be made for immediate passage of a MAPs 4 for defensible reasons, so be it.

king183
03-06-2014, 10:55 PM
It (expiration) has already happened once before, with no adverse effects. The MAPs tax expired in 1999 and remained off for more than a year before MAPs for Kids brought it back. It would not be negatively co-opted with any success if they did it again. In fact, it would be an example of delivering on promises.

That said, if a compelling case can be made for immediate passage of a MAPs 4 for defensible reasons, so be it.

Sure, but the political atmosphere is substantially different than in 1999, especially with respect to taxes. I don't think there's anyway a proposed "tax increase" would pass in this environment. That said, the political atmosphere could be different in 2017.

soonerguru
03-06-2014, 11:00 PM
It (expiration) has already happened once before, with no adverse effects. The MAPs tax expired in 1999 and remained off for more than a year before MAPs for Kids brought it back. It would not be negatively co-opted with any success if they did it again. In fact, it would be an example of delivering on promises.

That said, if a compelling case can be made for immediate passage of a MAPs 4 for defensible reasons, so be it.

The atmosphere has changed.

soonerguru
03-06-2014, 11:04 PM
With downtown approaching critical mass for self-sustainability OKC needs to start rebuilding the traditional neighborhoods I listed. Money for these areas could be used any number of ways and what works in Capitol Hill might not work in the Plaza district. Money could be used for street-scapes, to help remodel buildings, direct subsidy payments to retailers, seed money for a TIF district, establishment of neighborhood based transit, connection to rail based mass transit, or any number of other uses.

As an example, Britton could use the money to build a train station and town center to be on the OKC-Edmond commuter rail line and Capitol Hill could use the money to help fund residential development and mass transit to downtown.

I largely agree, but I think we need to be creating the next Paseo, Plaza, etc.

Just the facts
03-07-2014, 07:00 AM
I largely agree, but I think we need to be creating the next Paseo, Plaza, etc.

I hear what you are saying but OKC still has some historic urban neighborhoods that haven't even left the gate yet and they need to be helped along. Plus, once these tent-pole density neighborhoods start springing up people are going to want more of them. As demand grows the private sector will eventually take over all on its own. Some of Americas largest home builders are already doing this in other cities across the country. Toll Brothers, famous for the McMansion and sprawl, already has an urban division which accounts for 40% of income.

Toll Brothers City Living | About Us (http://www.tollbrotherscityliving.com/about/)

Likewise, big box retailers are rapidly becoming small box retailers and other national chains are developing urban concepts even faster. OKC just needs to supply a place for these concepts to locate, and what better place than our existing historic districts. In 10 years OKC could have 8 to 10 bonafide walkable urban neighborhoods all connected by mass transit.

Urbanized
03-07-2014, 07:09 AM
The atmosphere has changed.

In other words, it IS a permanent tax. Two can play at that game.

The anti-tax crowd can whip themselves into a frenzy either way.

mkjeeves
03-07-2014, 07:11 AM
I hear what you are saying but OKC still has some historic urban neighborhoods that haven't even left the gate yet and they need to be helped along.

Fixed. Otherwise spot on.

capt_john_97
06-06-2014, 01:38 PM
I think OKC needs to build some public swimming pools and not the spraygrounds!:mad:

LakeEffect
06-06-2014, 01:55 PM
I think OKC needs to build some public swimming pools and not the spraygrounds!:mad:

Public pool attendance has been trending way down, and the costs up, therefore OKC closed as many as possible.

capt_john_97
06-06-2014, 01:59 PM
Public pool attendance has been trending way down, and the costs up, therefore OKC closed as many as possible.

$6 to go to Will Rogers I can see why. Who wants to take their life into their own hands and go to one of the free pools? Reduce costs at the Water parks and attendance will rise. switch to salt systems instead of chlorine systems. Initial cost is higher but the return is better.

Bunty
06-07-2014, 10:16 PM
We should build a spaceship and be the first city with a presence on the moon.

An Oklahoma billionaire should get behind a project like that for Oklahoma City. More billionaires need to do something quite spectacular with their money. Unless they know a secret I don't, they can't take all that money with them when they die. If I was a billionaire, I would do something like that or build a skyscraper taller than Devon.

Bunty
06-07-2014, 10:18 PM
I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.

Why not simply turn those areas into Business Improvement Districts?

Bunty
06-07-2014, 10:24 PM
+10,000

OKC is probably the ugliest city visually I have ever been in anywhere and I have been all over the US. Climate can't be used as an excuse. Dallas has a slightly better climate but its overall the same yet there is a night and day difference between the visual appeal of the average Dallas neighborhood and the average OKC neighborhood. Desert, blue collar cities like El Paso are more visually appealing than OKC. There are a few exceptions here of course. Parts of downtown are attractive as well as Auto Alley, the Plaza, and Classen Ten Penn. Of course the Paseo is a visually attractive neighborhood. A fast majority of the city though is just ugly. I don't think the issue can be solved by a MAPS though. I think some MAPS money could go towards various things to jump start neighborhood improvements but in the end the free market, better planning, and/or zoning is going to have to be the change.

How nice of you to get around. But maybe that in part is why OKC tends to be ugly. Too many city leaders don't get around to see how other cities don't have to be ugly.

Just the facts
06-08-2014, 05:35 AM
Why not simply turn those areas into Business Improvement Districts?

That could be part of the solution but I was thinking more along the lines of street and sidewalk improvements, financial assistance to residential and commercial developers, parking garage construction, and public transportation improvements either through streetcar expansion of implementation of a neighborhood-based bus system.

ChrisHayes
06-08-2014, 07:21 AM
My ideal MAPS 4 would be all about beautification and public safety. Improve the visual appeal of the city and start building up fire and police forces. Both of those would probably go a long way to increasing the appeal of the city for both more people and businesses to relocate here.

Just the facts
06-08-2014, 08:11 AM
Can you give examples of improvements to 'visual appeal'?

Urbanized
06-08-2014, 08:36 AM
Why not simply turn those areas into Business Improvement Districts?

Some of them already are. BIDs are great for small projects and maintenance, but don't provide enough funding for large capital improvement.

Urbanized
06-08-2014, 08:42 AM
...Plus, once these tent-pole density neighborhoods start springing up people are going to want more of them. As demand grows the private sector will eventually take over all on its own. Some of Americas largest home builders are already doing this in other cities across the country. Toll Brothers, famous for the McMansion and sprawl, already has an urban division which accounts for 40% of income.

Toll Brothers City Living | About Us (http://www.tollbrotherscityliving.com/about/)

Likewise, big box retailers are rapidly becoming small box retailers and other national chains are developing urban concepts even faster. OKC just needs to supply a place for these concepts to locate, and what better place than our existing historic districts. In 10 years OKC could have 8 to 10 bonafide walkable urban neighborhoods all connected by mass transit.

I clicked in the link you provided and all I see are single, freestanding condominium projects. No town centers, no neighborhoods, no streetscapes.

Plutonic Panda
06-08-2014, 10:28 AM
The next MAPS really ought to be 90% mass transit based. Light-rail start to the airport from convention center(downtown), commuter rail improvements(hopefully there is already commuter rail by then), new buses, major Street car expansion, and new sidewalks.

Beautification and street can be included in the next GoBond package.

I also wish they'd put together another P180 bond to give a billion or so to redo literally every Street within I235/44/40 ring. Widen what streets need to be widened, add landscaping, re-construct them in concrete, add ped friendly features, bike lanes, redo the alleys etc.

Urbanized
06-08-2014, 10:33 AM
A billion wouldn't fund those projects on 10% of the streets in the area you just described. I fully support the idea of such projects, but it would need to be confined to arterial and other major streets with the hope that the surrounding neighborhoods would take inspiration from it.