View Full Version : Poor Persons and Casinos



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Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 07:57 AM
HB2759..."An Act relating to poor persons; prohibiting welfare recipients from entering casino; providing exception; directing Department of Human Services submit names of disqualified persons; requiring dissemination of list; specifying frequency; providing process for removing person from list; establishing penalty; providing for forfeiture; defining terms; providing for codification; and providing an effective date."

Next up...Poor Persons prohibited from buying cigarettes.

Bellaboo
02-24-2014, 08:07 AM
And beer....

kevinpate
02-24-2014, 08:22 AM
Can you imagine the outcry if it were amended to include folks with more than X late payments on their credit reports.

RadicalModerate
02-24-2014, 08:29 AM
Was it Thunder, or was it someone else, who was on that crusade in here, a few years ago, to prevent casinos from ripping off old people who were bussed in to play the slots? If the scenario had involved "commuter rail" it might have been Torea, but it didn't so it wasn't.

Midtowner
02-24-2014, 08:36 AM
I don't think the state can tell the Indians which customers they're allowed to cater to.

gjl
02-24-2014, 08:37 AM
But if they hit it big at the casino they are no longer poor and on welfare. What about playing the lottery?

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 08:40 AM
Can you imagine the outcry if it were amended to include folks with more than X late payments on their credit reports.

Child Support payments?

kevinpate
02-24-2014, 08:56 AM
I decided to go read the bill. It's broad as all get out. It would subject someone to being charged with a misd. offense in this situation, which has not one whit to do with the intent of the bill, which is precluding folks on welfare from using any of their funds to gamble.

Sue is on welfare, and works for an eatery in Riverwind down on Hwy 9. Let's say Rick's, as that is the only eatery name I have heard, though there are others. Sue's hubby, works part-time at the Love's across the highway. Combined income is meager and they qualify for state assistance. Sue can go to work freely, but can only enter Riverwind on work days and during work shifts. She can not stop by to see a co-worker, even to say hiya and the leave, if it is not a work day. Doing so risks being charged with a misd. She doesn't have to gamble to commit a crime. Mere presence inside the structure on a non work shift is a crime under the act.

Hubby Carl, the p-timer at Love's can not, when his work shift ends, walk across the highway and have a soda or a pizza with his Sue at Rick's when she gets off work. She can bring a pizza to the car, but it would be a misd. for him to visit her on a break (for he can not enter at all) or for the two of them to sit down after her shift and share a soda or a pizza. Again, he can not lawfully enter the building, even with zero intent to gamble, and she can't remain in the building, as her work shift has concluded and she is no longer present for employment duties.

Part of me does get the intent of the bill, but its extent is too far reaching if a husband and wife can not eat a pizza together at the end of her work day without risking criminal charges for having a meal in the food court of a casino.

OKCretro
02-24-2014, 08:57 AM
Playing the lottery or slots at a casino I call it a "stupid people tax"

BBatesokc
02-24-2014, 09:21 AM
Playing the lottery or slots at a casino I call it a "stupid people tax"

Is that your opinion in general or would you conceded its only 'stupid' if one overindulges or has not the funds to partake in the first place?

Bunty
02-24-2014, 09:37 AM
With poor people in mind, don't some of the casinos have penny slot machines?

RadicalModerate
02-24-2014, 09:42 AM
With poor people in mind, don't some of the casinos have penny slot machines?

Yes, they do. It's their version of a "gateway drug."

Achilleslastand
02-24-2014, 11:12 AM
But if they hit it big at the casino they are no longer poor and on welfare. What about playing the lottery?

As if that's an everyday occurrence.....
The odds of winning at the local Indian Casinos are even worse then the Las Vegas Strip. But then again they arent required to make public their payout odds nor regulated like the Las Vegas Gaming Commission.

PennyQuilts
02-24-2014, 12:30 PM
I think it is unworkable but in all honesty, I'd just as soon welfare money be stretched a little further than for pizza at a casino. Most of us on budgets cut out eating out, first thing, when things are tight. Not expecting anyone else to do what I wouldn't.

tomokc
02-24-2014, 12:48 PM
Playing the lottery or slots at a casino I call it a "stupid people tax"

It's called that for a whole lot of reasons, and these two will convince anyone regardless of their intelligence: 1) More people lose in casinos than win; and 2) Unlike in some other states, payout rates in Oklahoma aren't required to be at a minimal level, in fact, they're not disclosed to any regulatory agency in the state.

kevinpate
02-24-2014, 01:01 PM
I think it is unworkable but in all honesty, I'd just as soon welfare money be stretched a little further than for pizza at a casino. Most of us on budgets cut out eating out, first thing, when things are tight. Not expecting anyone else to do what I wouldn't.

In the example, both folks are employed, although somewhat meagerly. To call eating a pizza not stretching their welfare money is, to me at least, a touch of an odd statement.

gjl
02-24-2014, 01:05 PM
Why is using your welfare money to gamble at a casino any worse than using your SNAP card to buy candy, chips, and a big gulp at the 7-11?

OKCretro
02-24-2014, 01:15 PM
Don't want to hijack the thread, but did see someone using their food stamp card at whole foods.

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 01:42 PM
Why is using your welfare money to gamble at a casino any worse than using your SNAP card to buy candy, chips, and a big gulp at the 7-11?

gjl...I have seen this same thing quite often at our neighborhood convenience store (dare I mention the name of the store again). I think this would be a very good subject to bring up to the Oklahoma Legislature, and if you wouldn't mind, I think I am going to send an e-mail to Rep. Todd Russ this afternoon and ask him about what you have brought up.

ljbab728
02-24-2014, 02:06 PM
Don't want to hijack the thread, but did see someone using their food stamp card at whole foods.

Well there you go then, obviously the bill needs to be amended to prohibit anyone on welfare from entering a Whole Foods store. :)

gjl
02-24-2014, 02:20 PM
With poor people in mind, don't some of the casinos have penny slot machines?

I'm going to guess you haven't played too many penny slots.

PennyQuilts
02-24-2014, 02:27 PM
In the example, both folks are employed, although somewhat meagerly. To call eating a pizza not stretching their welfare money is, to me at least, a touch of an odd statement.

There has been many a time in my younger years when even a Big Mac was out of the question. Eating out was always a special treat, often saved up for.

OKCretro
02-24-2014, 02:34 PM
Well there you go then, obviously the bill needs to be amended to prohibit anyone on welfare from entering a Whole Foods store. :)

to me its kind of like when you see a priest driving an escalade or someone using their obamaphone and getting an i5 with their govt coupon

trousers
02-24-2014, 06:19 PM
So regulating businesses is ok if it keeps the poor people out? Some people like big government a lot.

trousers
02-24-2014, 06:20 PM
I think it is unworkable but in all honesty, I'd just as soon welfare money be stretched a little further than for pizza at a casino. Most of us on budgets cut out eating out, first thing, when things are tight. Not expecting anyone else to do what I wouldn't.
So do we need to add Little Caesers, McDonalds, Taco Bell etc to this bill to fully round out all of the places that poor people don't need to go to?

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 06:39 PM
So do we need to add Little Caesers, McDonalds, Taco Bell etc to this bill to fully round out all of the places that poor people don't need to go to?

trousers...There's certainly nothing to be ashamed about to live within one's means (budget). That used to be a positive quality/characteristic that one could be proud of...even in the toughest of times.

PennyQuilts
02-24-2014, 06:47 PM
So do we need to add Little Caesers, McDonalds, Taco Bell etc to this bill to fully round out all of the places that poor people don't need to go to?

I think the "younger generation" has gotten so used to doing the fast food thing that they don't see it as a treat the way many of my generation did/do. So, in part, it is a generational thing. If they spent foodstamp money for expensive popcorn at the movies I would feel the same way - it is in the exact same category. To me, that is the type of thing you buy when you have discretionary income. Moreover, IMO, although I have no problem helping someone get back on their feet, if someone is so poor they can't feed themselves, they should have enough respect for the rest of us to be careful with the money we gave them. I don't think fast food is a good bargain for scarce public resources and would discourage it on that basis as well as because it is typically crappy food. But my short answer is - I think it is ridiculous for people on welfare to order from Taco Bell and the like.

trousers
02-24-2014, 06:50 PM
I agree with you on that point Dennis. I've done my share of living off of ramen.
I guess I just get irritated when we start get the stupid ass bills that do nothing but waste taxpayer money as they work their way through the process. Bills whose only purpose is to serve as grandstanding by some hack legislator.

PennyQuilts
02-24-2014, 06:51 PM
So regulating businesses is ok if it keeps the poor people out? Some people like big government a lot.

Hmm. So you think people getting foodstamps should be able to spend it on anything they please? Because it sounds like you think it is "big government" to provide foodstamps with any strings attached. That's a pretty fringe attitude. We already don't allow them to use it for liquor or cigarettes. How would telling them they can't spend it at fast food joints (such healthy food!) be any different or require more government regulation?

trousers
02-24-2014, 06:55 PM
Uhhh. Pretty sure this thread was actually about casinos. You are the one that wouldn't let Kevin's hypothetical pizza go lol.
If you remember the bill is about not letting welfare recipients go into casinos. You have somehow extrapolated that into me wanting a food stamp free for all.

And not to continue the derailing here but you can't spend food stamps at fast food restaurants.

PennyQuilts
02-24-2014, 06:59 PM
Uhhh. Pretty sure this thread was actually about casinos. You are the one that wouldn't let Kevin's hypothetical pizza go lol.
If you remember the bill is about not letting welfare recipients go into casinos. You have somehow extrapolated that into me wanting a food stamp free for all.

And not to continue the derailing here but you can't spend food stamps at fast food restaurants.
Hahaha - those were directly responsive to your posts. Kevin brought up eating in the casino, which brought up fast food and you bit. :) Oh well, we're just having fun here.

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 07:00 PM
State Regulations/OKDHS Policy might say Food Stamps shall not be used to purchase beer, liquor or cigarettes...but we know there are "stores" (owners) out there that get around that, when the "customer" is willing to pay the "asking price."

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 07:04 PM
And not to continue the derailing here but you can't spend food stamps at fast food restaurants.

PaPa Murphy's is pretty fast! But, I know what you are saying.

BTW, I got sick and tired of the "ramen." I switched to Hurst's 15 Bean Soup.

trousers
02-24-2014, 07:08 PM
State Regulations/OKDHS Policy might say Food Stamps shall not be used to purchase beer, liquor or cigarettes...but we know there are "stores" (owners) out there that get around that, when the "customer" is willing to pay the "asking price."
Yeah. Usually isn't too long until those stores get their SNAP machines pulled too. OKDHS OIG has a group of inspectors that actually go undercover for the stings.

MustangGT
02-24-2014, 07:51 PM
Eliminate 99% of the locations that accept the leaches EBT cards and problem solved. Leaches will not patronize business that do not take the state cards. And yes I consider those on welfare as leaches.

trousers
02-24-2014, 07:58 PM
Never mind

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 08:23 PM
MustangGT...Not everyone on welfare is a "leach." Just the ones that would rather spend their benefits at the casinos instead of on their children. There are way too many custodial parents out there that haven't seen Child Support in years. I am sure most of them don't take Food Stamp assistance for granted and are not the ones spending their weekends at the casinos.

Midtowner
02-24-2014, 08:42 PM
Not sure why you're still discussing this. The state can't tell the tribes who they can and cannot do business with.

PennyQuilts
02-24-2014, 08:53 PM
MustangGT...Not everyone on welfare is a "leach." Just the ones that would rather spend their benefits at the casinos instead of on their children. There are way too many custodial parents out there that haven't seen Child Support in years. I am sure most of them don't take Food Stamp assistance for granted and are not the ones spending their weekends at the casinos.

Too many children are living in poverty in single parent homes. As a society and as individuals, we don't want to judge and I get that - but there are times when I wonder how culpable we are when we, as a society, don't take a stronger position helping young people make better decisions. How often do we, as parents or grandparents say nothing when our young daughters shack up with some jerk who is likely never going to amount to anything? As often as not, we actually encourage them in the relationship and hope for the best. How often do we, as friends, not tell our dear ones that the person they are with is not good for them?

We can't control what our young people/loved ones do but I think most of us have gone to the extreme of not being honest with them. There is a fundamental difference between being honest and being judgmental. I am not sure how much it would help in an individual situation but if, as a culture, we were more honest with each other instead of enabling poor decisions, it could start turning things around. I think a lot of us want to support our loved ones and not upset them. Speaking only for myself, I have been on the receiving end of excellent advice from people I knew loved me with a message I didn't want to hear. Awkward conversations, certainly, but I don't recall ever blaming them for speaking hard truths from a position of love.

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 09:03 PM
Not sure why you're still discussing this. The state can't tell the tribes who they can and cannot do business with.

Midtowner...I'll be sure to clear all future inputs with you before posting. LOL!!!

RadicalModerate
02-24-2014, 09:34 PM
At first I thought that the typo "leach" was an accidental, unconnected, reference to the draining away of stuff like minerals by the action of water or some other liquid. And then I realized that it sort of fit perfectly within the context of the discussion. If you think about it for a minute.

Since it wasn't capitalized, it couldn't have been a reference to that noted British scientist or zoologist or whatever. (or could it?(!))

Dennis Heaton
02-24-2014, 09:57 PM
Since it wasn't capitalized, it couldn't have been a reference to that noted British scientist or zoologist or whatever. (or could it?(!))

Why am I suddenly searching YouTube for "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous?"

kevinpate
02-25-2014, 07:31 AM
There has been many a time in my younger years when even a Big Mac was out of the question. Eating out was always a special treat, often saved up for.

Ok PQ, I'll go along. Nothing in my example suggested one way or the other if wanting to share a pizza at Sue's work after her shift was a common event or a special event that was saved up for at 1.00 tucked a way a month. So, let's add your criteria. Even with a possible employee discount, let's say Sue and her hub could only manage this pizza meal once every 7-9 months. Should it be a misd. offense solely to eat a pizza at Rick's? Again, neither is gambling, merely eating a pizza at a food court located in a casino.

kevinpate
02-25-2014, 07:38 AM
FWIW, I don't think the bill has a chance of standing as an enacted law. It's simply the notion that so long as our current legislature doesn't like X, it can be criminalized, along with any other incidental conduct, just to be sure the big bad X can be attacked. I might some day learn to love the party of small government, assuming one ever comes into being again.

positano
02-25-2014, 07:59 AM
I can't imagine the "last thing on Earth" scenario that would cause me to actually read this bill, but for those that have, I don't suppose the author has thought through the complexities of jurisdiction in Indian Country? Who is it exactly that they believe will enforce this law, much less prosecute it?

Just the facts
02-25-2014, 08:50 AM
Here is the deal - once you give someone money telling them what they can do with that money is impossible. That is something that should be thought of BEFORE giving them money. If someone on OKCTalk gave me $100 and I earned $100 at work and then I went and spent $100 on lap dances and $100 of food for my kids - which $100 went to which activity? It's like pouring your water and my water into the same glass. Once it is mixed you can't tell me what to do with your water.

Maybe instead of giving people a SNAP card with cash on it they get coupons for specific food items, for example, they get a milk coupon instead of $4.00. Since everyone's dining habits are different the recipient could select the type of food coupons they have from a pre-selected list of choices. Even if the recipient sells the coupon to a third party, at least we know that public dollars are going to buy milk eventually, as someone has to use the food voucher before it expires.

Dennis Heaton
02-25-2014, 09:33 AM
Just the facts...May I copy that and send it to Rep. Todd Russ?

Dennis Heaton
02-25-2014, 09:35 AM
Maybe instead of giving people a SNAP card with cash on it they get coupons for specific food items, for example, they get a milk coupon instead of $4.00. Since everyone's dining habits are different the recipient could select the type of food coupons they have from a pre-selected list of choices. Even if the recipient sells the coupon to a third party, at least we know that public dollars are going to buy milk eventually, as someone has to use the food voucher before it expires.

Kinda-sorta like the WIC program?

Just the facts
02-25-2014, 09:36 AM
Just the facts...May I copy that and send it to Rep. Todd Russ?

Send it to whomever you want.

trousers
02-25-2014, 09:59 AM
Kinda-sorta like the WIC program?

That's pretty much what it sounds like. I'm not against this.
It might just be simpler to add new restrictions to the existing electronic system to restrict certain foods, no soda for example.

gjl
02-25-2014, 10:35 AM
That's pretty much what it sounds like. I'm not against this.
It might just be simpler to add new restrictions to the existing electronic system to restrict certain foods, no soda for example.

Hmmmm, what about bottled water then. I mean you can get that free out of your faucet.

trousers
02-25-2014, 10:39 AM
Hmmmm, what about bottled water then. I mean you can get that free out of your faucet.

Water is actually essential for human life...and its possible that some people may live in areas with poor water.

JohnnyW
02-25-2014, 10:49 AM
In regards to welfare recipients, I don't believe that there should be any restrictions on what they use the money for. It's a supplement to their low income so that they may have some semblance of a normal life. It's not anyone's money but theirs. Do we need to restrict the welfare that is going to our retired senior citizens as well? I'm just not in favor of more control over the poor as they are already suffering enough.

Just the facts
02-25-2014, 11:00 AM
In regards to welfare recipients, I don't believe that there should be any restrictions on what they use the money for. It's a supplement to their low income so that they may have some semblance of a normal life. It's not anyone's money but theirs. Do we need to restrict the welfare that is going to our retired senior citizens as well? I'm just not in favor of more control over the poor as they are already suffering enough.

That is the fundamental question - are you giving them food to eat or are you giving them cash that they might spend on food to eat?

trousers
02-25-2014, 11:02 AM
In regards to welfare recipients, I don't believe that there should be any restrictions on what they use the money for. It's a supplement to their low income so that they may have some semblance of a normal life. It's not anyone's money but theirs. Do we need to restrict the welfare that is going to our retired senior citizens as well? I'm just not in favor of more control over the poor as they are already suffering enough.

So far we've only been referring to SNAP benefits (on card only for food) not TANF payments (on card, get $). As far as TANF cash payments go there is no way to say what a person can it on once it becomes cash.

gjl
02-25-2014, 11:23 AM
Water is actually essential for human life...and its possible that some people may live in areas with poor water.

How did humankind survive for thousands of years before bottled water?

trousers
02-25-2014, 11:34 AM
How did humankind survive for thousands of years before bottled water?

So maybe all poor people should just kill what they eat?

gjl
02-25-2014, 12:01 PM
So maybe all poor people should just kill what they eat?

Bad analogy. I expect better from you.

Dubya61
02-25-2014, 01:25 PM
In regards to welfare recipients, I don't believe that there should be any restrictions on what they use the money for. It's a supplement to their low income so that they may have some semblance of a normal life. It's not anyone's money but theirs. Do we need to restrict the welfare that is going to our retired senior citizens as well? I'm just not in favor of more control over the poor as they are already suffering enough.

I fully agree that the money given to welfare recipients should be spent under their own discretion. I disagree with viewing Social Security Retirement as welfare. For the most part, these payments are from an account that the worker and employer have been paying into.

The largest component of Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance federal program is the payment of retirement benefits. These retirement benefits are a form of social insurance that is heavily biased toward lower paid workers to make sure they do not have to retire in relative poverty. With few exceptions, throughout a worker's career, the Social Security Administration and the Internal Revenue Service, IRS, keeps track of his or her earnings and requires Federal Insurance Contribution Act, FICA and/or Self Employed Contribution Act, SECA, taxes to be paid on the earnings. The OASI accounts plus trust funds are the only Social Security funding source that brings in more than it sends out.

The amount of the monthly Social Security benefit to which a worker is entitled depends upon the earnings record they have paid FICA and/or SECA taxes on and upon the age at which the retiree chooses to begin receiving benefits.

Dennis Heaton
02-25-2014, 01:35 PM
Dubya61...I know I am getting older, but where exactly did you snatch those last two quotes in your post? I don't see them on this Thread anywhere...and I do have my glasses on today.