This has quickly become a big story around here

Texas teen survives skydive after parachute mishap in Chickasha (http://www.okcfox.com/story/24564715/texas-teen-survives-terrifying-free-fall-after-parachute-problem)

"Someone's going to take responsibility, and it's not gonna be that 16-year-old that's laying in a hospital bed," Joe said. He would not comment on what legal action his family might or might not take against the company."

Not sure what I think about this. No one forced her to jump out of that airplane.

There are industry safety standards. Most skydiving schools/companies require x-amount of tandem jumps before being cut loose to go at it on your own. There is also the fact that commons sense should have played a roll in this Dad's decisions. Most logical minded parents are not going to let their child skydive or do just about any life threatening sport without some type of formal training and practical application. Long story short he will be lucky if he recieves enough money to pay the medical bills from the incident and the bills that will come as a result of her condition.

"Someone's going to take responsibility, and it's not gonna be that 16-year-old that's laying in a hospital bed," Joe said. He would not comment on what legal action his family might or might not take against the company."

Not sure what I think about this. No one forced her to jump out of that airplane.

That's a ludicrous statement to make. She had expectations that her chute was going to operate correctly and it's clear she wasn't the one to pack and inspect it. If this was due to negligence then legal action is needed.

Ehhh, looks like bad planning on the part of the parents and a very risky business model on the part of the business owner.

All parents are different, but I didn't let my 16-year old 'make all the plans' when it came to anything that could potentially kill him. The whole reason they require parental permission is the assumption the parent will actually be providing some mature oversight.

Personally, I'd never jump as a new skydiver without a tandem partner (regardless of my age) - simply because I have no idea how I or my body will react. Blacking out, puking, panicking are all real possibilities.

As the business owner, allowing 16-year old and non-tandem first jumps is most likely a sign of the owner's greed to offer something the others don't in a reckless attempt to make more money. That business model comes with risk and I can see scenarios where this bites him in the financial butt.

That's a ludicrous statement to make. She had expectations that her chute was going to operate correctly and it's clear she wasn't the one to pack and inspect it. If this was due to negligence then legal action is needed.

Cab you not just state your opinion without first attacking me?

After reading that article there is something fundamentally wrong with those parents (and I use the term 'parents' in strict biological definition).

seems like there is blame on both sides. but the good thing for all is the girl survived what seems to be an amazing set of circumstances.

Cab you not just state your opinion without first attacking me?

I didn't attack you, I attacked your statement and my opinion is your statement is ludicrous.

I would think that the parents would have had to sign some kind of release before the girl jumped. Especially since she is a minor.

I didn't attack you, I attacked your statement and my opinion is your statement is ludicrous.
So your answer is no.

I would think that the parents would have had to sign some kind of release before the girl jumped. Especially since she is a minor.

The article said her parents signed releases.

"Someone's going to take responsibility, and it's not gonna be that 16-year-old that's laying in a hospital bed," Joe said. He would not comment on what legal action his family might or might not take against the company."

Not sure what I think about this. No one forced her to jump out of that airplane.

Something to think about before sighting the waiver to pretty much any legal right to sue.

I went to that place with a large group of newbies about 20 years ago.... After sitting through the jump class. I talked myself out of jumping with or without and instructor. The landing zone at that place was just down right scary. You have huge power lines on one side and a heavy treed and bob-wired fence on the opposite side that you have to come in between. At the time they only required one tandem jump before you could do it on your own. Saturday they all did the tandem jump , then Sunday we went back down and a few of them did the single , a couple of the guys decided to not do the single. The two that did one went off without a hitch, the other literally had to lift his feet up to miss the power lines then ended up panicking and came in hot landing with the wind which pushed him through the bob-wire. It ripped damn near all of his clothes off ,cut up and bruised we thought he was dead cause he didn't move a muscle for it seemed like forever until we got over to him. It was quite a scary experience to say the least, after that we all decided there was no sense in ever jumping out of a perfectly good airplane again.

When you make death an option, sometimes death is the outcome. Like in poker, the only way to go all-out is to go all-in.

A friend of mine jumps (or used to jump) regularly at this place. IIRC, the "solo" jump is actually a static line jump, so it is not nearly as risky as a true solo jump.

Static line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_line)

So your answer is no.

My answer is in my opinion your statement is ludicrous.

This particular teen was a static line jump. While surprised that any first timer would not be a tandem jump, I would be confuzzled beyond comprehension if anyone permitted first timers to jump solo and be responsible for chute deployment. That would seem akin to playing russian roulette with five shells in.

Something to think about before sighting the waiver to pretty much any legal right to sue.

People think waivers mean you can't sue - not true at all (especially in Oklahoma). You cannot avoid liability through a waiver if it can be shown you were negligent and negligence if often a debatable topic (meaning, you're going to court).

The article said her parents signed releases.

It doesn't say anything about signing a release. Just about signing a permission form. By release, I mean a form relieving the company of any liability should something go wrong. In other words, "Jump At Your Own Risk".

The parents are fully responsible for their minor daughter, and been very clear on how many hours of training there is to be, and if it was to be a tandem jump or a solo jump, etc.

It doesn't say anything about signing a release. Just about signing a permission form. By release, I mean a form relieving the company of any liability should something go wrong. In other words, "Jump At Your Own Risk".

The parents are fully responsible for their minor daughter, and been very clear on how many hours of training there is to be, and if it was to be a tandem jump or a solo jump, etc.

As I said above, signing a release doesn't mean much once lawyers get involved. Find one shred of negligence and the waiver goes out the window.

Actually, the far greater odds are that, like so many, many cases, the matter will get settled within policy limits, sans any assignment of liability in any direction. The docs and other med vendors will get paid at some level o their billings, the attorney and case costs will get paid, and the amount remaining for the minor, assuming a settlement before the teen reaches 18, will be tucked away into a restricted account at the conclusion of what's called a friendly suit. This concludes with a judge saying grace over who gets paid what, how much the minor gets tucked away, an explanation of the hurdles to reach any of the minor's funds prior to age 18, and a dismissal of the action.

Won't necessarily end that way of course, but when a minor is involved, if this were a betting event, the smart money would be to bet on this outcome the vast majority of the time.

I agree - which is why I think this was a risky business model for the owner. A payout by his insurance - even without admitting liability is going to be costly as far a coverage going forward.

As I said above, signing a release doesn't mean much once lawyers get involved. Find one shred of negligence and the waiver goes out the window.

You can file a suit for anything. Bates, you can sue me for being ugly, and you may be right, but that doesn't mean you'd win.

.

You can file a suit for anything. Bates, you can sue me for being ugly, and you may be right, but that doesn't mean you'd win.

.


That has ZERO to do with the topic. I guess in that scenario I could sue you for being clueless about the law...... but..... In this case, we are talking about being shielded from a lawsuit/liability/judgement due to a waiver. I simply pointed out that the waiver is meaningless if any negligence can be found.

The simple fact they are obviously going to allege negligence means its going to get expensive fast to try and defend the lawsuit (regardless of the precious waiver).

Oklahoma law does not allow a business to avoid liability simply because they have customers sign a waiver. Most personal injury and/or product liability lawyers will tell you a waiver is pretty useless other than to point out the obvious - what you're doing as a customer and offering as a business is dangerous.

I've used the example of the mechanical bulls that used to be in tons of bars. I use that example because I know a lawyer that won a couple of large verdicts and one settlement over those bulls. And in EVERY case the person hurt signed a waiver.

That has ZERO to do with the topic. I guess in that scenario I could sue you for being clueless about the law...... but..... In this case, we are talking about being shielded from a lawsuit/liability/judgement due to a waiver. I simply pointed out that the waiver is meaningless if any negligence can be found.

The simple fact they are obviously going to allege negligence means its going to get expensive fast to try and defend the lawsuit (regardless of the precious waiver).

Oklahoma law does not allow a business to avoid liability simply because they have customers sign a waiver. Most personal injury and/or product liability lawyers will tell you a waiver is pretty useless other than to point out the obvious - what you're doing as a customer and offering as a business is dangerous.

I've used the example of the mechanical bulls that used to be in tons of bars. I use that example because I know a lawyer that won a couple of large verdicts and one settlement over those bulls. And in EVERY case the person hurt signed a waiver.

One of the lawyer types like Midtowner can correct me, but I'm reasonably sure that business can't generally exculpate their own negligence - although I think that may be an exclusion against exculpating gross negligence. Ordinary negligence is more likely to get waved off, I think. It's one thing if you get hurt doing something dangerous, simply by virtue of the fact that its dangerous, but its another thing if the proximate cause of the injury was the failure of the other guy to do something routine he should have done. Then you get into industry standards and reasonable man tests and stuff like that.

Now, sometimes, to get around all that, some liability releases will also include liquidated damages clauses that try to say, in effect, "Okay, even if we screw up, and some court SAYS we screwed up, you agree in advance as part of the consideration for the service that any damages arising from such screw up are limited to $50" or some other token amount.

I did not read one single line in that article that mentioned anything about your backup chute.

My experience up at Cushing, when that place was still open (my jump was a couple of years before that plane crashed), was we went up very early in the morning, class started at either 8 or 9am where we learned all the details of SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures), this of course was after we signed our lives away, then we broke for lunch and when we came back we spent another couple of hours enacting safety procedures. They had harnesses rigged up to a system of polls to simulate a partial failure of your parachute--primary reason being a tangle in the chords--and they stated that this happens to about 1 in 25 jumpers or something like that. My dad recorded this session and I've never seen myself so serious because its your LIFE. We learned how to get out of that situation and this was only after learning and rehashing the procedure in the morning session. We had a backup chute but no one had to use it even once. Also, parachute gear is packaged only by certified instructors who have several 100 jumps under their belt.

If that dad only recalled 2 hours of instruction, then he was half asleep, not paying attention, or the company wasn't doing their job.

From another thread, but not out of place here -



A written, signed waiver is like an impenetrable shield ... if it is embossed onto a flirefly wing parchment and signed using a quill from Mother Goose that has been dipped in baby unicorn tears.

Oh, yours wasn't? Rut Rho Rhaggy.

How common are skydiving accidents? The kid that used to mow our lawn when I was growing up used to skydive and he died when his chute didn't open. Another kid we knew in Virginia also died in a skydiving accident.

There are only around 22 annual skydiving fatalities in the US according to the United States Parachute Association: Skydiving Safety (http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/SkydivingSafety/tabid/526/Default.aspx)


In the 1970s, the sport averaged 42.5 skydiving fatalities per year. Since then, the average has dropped each decade. In the 1980s, the average was 34.1; in the 1990s, the average was 32.3, and in the first decade of the new millennium (2000-2009), the average dropped again to 25.8. Over the past three years, the annual average continues its decline to 21.7.

I began jumping in college in the late 1970s, and quit a decade later after about 125 jumps out of everything from Darrell Duer's hot air balloon to a DC-3, and into everything from airports to back yards to Mackinac Island during the PATCO strike.

My initial training was similar to OKCisOK4me's: Early morning arrival at the DZ, training until a brief noon break, a little more training in the afternoon while instructors selected students for each load, and up we went. Unfortunately for me clouds rolled in, so I had to come back the next weekend. Jumps 1-5 were "static line," followed by "jump & pulls" (or "hop & pops"), and then progressively longer delays until competence & maneuverability were demonstrated as freefall speeds approached terminal velocity. As I got better I would be invited to jump with others and engage in "relative work." Lots of fun.

Skydiving is one of few things that people do where death is absolutely certain unless the participant takes action, and if a problem arises, he must correctly diagnose what it is, and select the appropriate remedy. Instantly.

After that static line jump from 3,500 feet, I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wanted to do it again, that same day. We could have but opted out--I think my dad wanted to get back home. I haven't jumped since. I think we did this in 2005, if I'm not mistaken. It scares me now to even think about doing it again. I would totally do the tandem jump but I don't know who would be able to strap all 6' 5" of me to their frame, lol.


Skydiving is one of few things that people do where death is absolutely certain unless the participant takes action, and if a problem arises, he must correctly diagnose what it is, and select the appropriate remedy. Instantly.

To add to this, from 3,500 ft, you have absolutely no time. If you're in a downward spiral, you have to try to untangle the chords (imagine being on a chained swingset and the chains above you are twisted so you sway your body to untangle them), and if not done, before you get to 1,000 feet, you have to clear your tangled chute with your right hand by pulling down and out on a D-ring that is built into your harness and then pull down and out with your left hand on another D-ring that deploys your emergency chute. This chute has no flaring option like your primary chute so your landing would be very similar to how a Army Paratrooper lands when they tuck, duck and roll. If your emergency chute is screwed then you go from SOPs to SOLs!

If this information is fresh in my mind now then I don't know what this dad was doing and I hope the company that exists down there did what they're suppose to do which is providing the proper training on a regular basis. The accidents are going to happen and unfortunately are unavoidable.

One of the worst things a parent can do is being whatever passes for hip nowadays and trying to be their friend. Kids have friends, what they need is guidance. Not guidance from an idiot though. Those should be spade or neutered before they sully, the way too shallow as it is, gene pool.

I've had a Private Pilots licence since 1986 and as long as the propeller is spinning, I never had any desire to exit any airplane while above the ground.

You can get many a adrenaline rush while on the ground. Flying on a pretty day is fun and most private planes have a bit of a glide ratio.

You practice emergency landings a lot with the power way pulled back but I never had an instructor stop the prop completely.

How common are skydiving accidents? The kid that used to mow our lawn when I was growing up used to skydive and he died when his chute didn't open. Another kid we knew in Virginia also died in a skydiving accident.
I have no idea what the stats are, PQ. I can absolutely guarantee you, however, that skydiving will not be the cause of my demise. :wink:

I thought about skydiving once or twice. I used to drink a wee more than I should.
As neither of these statements is true today, I'm thinking there might have been a connection back in the day.

A friends husband had an accident at this jump place that resulted in a hard landing. There was no ambulance called but when he finally sought medical attention, he had broken his back. Supposed to have their story aired on channel 4 at 10:00 on Thursday.
Even though my daughter has tandem jumped at the Chandler diving school, I have a strict theory about it. The only things that fall from the sky are moisture in several forms, bird sh!t and fools.

That has ZERO to do with the topic. I guess in that scenario I could sue you for being clueless about the law...... but..... In this case, we are talking about being shielded from a lawsuit/liability/judgement due to a waiver. I simply pointed out that the waiver is meaningless if any negligence can be found.

The simple fact they are obviously going to allege negligence means its going to get expensive fast to try and defend the lawsuit (regardless of the precious waiver).

Oklahoma law does not allow a business to avoid liability simply because they have customers sign a waiver. Most personal injury and/or product liability lawyers will tell you a waiver is pretty useless other than to point out the obvious - what you're doing as a customer and offering as a business is dangerous.

I've used the example of the mechanical bulls that used to be in tons of bars. I use that example because I know a lawyer that won a couple of large verdicts and one settlement over those bulls. And in EVERY case the person hurt signed a waiver.


It has EVERYTHING to do with this topic. The family can sue for negligence, but my point is they have to PROVE IT. Maybe the parents were negligent. I was just saying that I can't see the company not having them sign a waiver. I never said it would hold up. Every case is different, but I do know of a couple instances where a waiver made a big difference in the outcome, but those were't sporting events either. As far as being clueless, I'll let someone who actually IS a lawyer make that determination. .. Speaking of which, KevinPates description of a most
likely scenerio makes sense.

I have no idea what the stats are, PQ.

Read post #31 above.

I've had a Private Pilots licence since 1986 and as long as the propeller is spinning, I never had any desire to exit any airplane while above the ground.

The pilot of a Twin Otter full of jumpers described one of the engines hiccuping briefly during the climb to altitude. He turned around to tell everyone that he simply had the mixture a little too lean, but they were already gone!

A friends husband had an accident at this jump place that resulted in a hard landing. There was no ambulance called but when he finally sought medical attention, he had broken his back. Supposed to have their story aired on channel 4 at 10:00 on Thursday.

This is one of the reasons that I don't watch local news. A guy we've never heard of broke his back, and he or a friend/family member called KFOR - that isn't newsworthy. I can promise that there will be no factual information, no context, no background on the industry or a presentation of injuries/fatalities at either this drop zone or around the country. No-one will be smarter for having watched this segment. They will never get back the 90 seconds they wasted watching it. But there will be an interview with an "eyewitness" who has more tattoos than teeth, whose ability to speak coherent English is in doubt, who knows - KNOWS - what happened and what should be done.

This is one of the reasons that I don't watch local news. A guy we've never heard of broke his back, and he or a friend/family member called KFOR - that isn't newsworthy. I can promise that there will be no factual information, no context, no background on the industry or a presentation of injuries/fatalities at either this drop zone or around the country. No-one will be smarter for having watched this segment. They will never get back the 90 seconds they wasted watching it. But there will be an interview with an "eyewitness" who has more tattoos than teeth, whose ability to speak coherent English is in doubt, who knows - KNOWS - what happened and what should be done.Where to begin? No tattoos, he had all of his teeth and spoke like an educated man. Expressed concern that no medical help was called even though he told them he was injured. Was taken straight to the hospital, by his wife, where he was strapped down and rushed into spinal surgery. There was another jumper in his group that broke his leg jumping the same day. Learned there is no regulatory body that monitors these schools and they operate without having to be licensed or inspected by anyone. No wonder there are no stats regarding safety or injuries. Other than that, I guess you were spot on.

This is one of the reasons that I don't watch local news. A guy we've never heard of broke his back, and he or a friend/family member called KFOR - that isn't newsworthy. I can promise that there will be no factual information, no context, no background on the industry or a presentation of injuries/fatalities at either this drop zone or around the country. No-one will be smarter for having watched this segment. They will never get back the 90 seconds they wasted watching it. But there will be an interview with an "eyewitness" who has more tattoos than teeth, whose ability to speak coherent English is in doubt, who knows - KNOWS - what happened and what should be done.

I'm guessing this is the story (you probably didn't watch).

Lawmaker working to change skydiving laws after teen falls 3,500 feet in Oklahoma | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2014/01/31/lawmaker-working-to-change-skydiving-laws-after-teen-falls-3500-feet-in-oklahoma/)

FYI - the news hour is full of stories about people you and I don't know. Exactly how is a followup story that has gone worldwide not 'newsworthy'? Sounds more like you just don't recognize news when you see it.

Since you don't watch the news..... guess what... sounded very factual, definitely in context to the followup, and they gave an overview of the industry locally and the potential problems.

Didn't see any tattoos, missing teeth either and the guy spoke very well.

But thanks for wasting our few minutes reading your totally baseless response.

Learned there is no regulatory body that monitors these schools and they operate without having to be licensed or inspected by anyone. No wonder there are no stats regarding safety or injuries. Other than that, I guess you were spot on.

Skydiving drop zones are regulated by both the Federal Aviation Administration and the United States Parachute Association. And you failed to read my post #31 above with a link to USPA-provided stats regarding safety or injuries. Other than that, I guess that YOU were spot on.

I've been involved in aviation - professionally and recreationally - for 35 years. I've been a pilot for 30 years, and have owned several airplanes and aviation companies. What I deeply resent is the media sensationalizing events because they are aviation related. If a person breaks his back in a car accident it most likely won't make the news, but if he breaks it skydiving, it does. If a motorist crashes his car and is uninjured, it most likely won't make the news, but if he crashes his airplane, it does. It's broken bones and bent metal in both cases, but one makes the news and the other doesn't, it harms aviation, and it unfairly leads people to believe that flying isn’t safe.

Reporters and news editors do not understand aviation, and in most cases they don’t even try. When a reporter and photographer are assigned to prepare a story on an accident, the result is almost always the same: They go to the scene and find someone who claims that they witnessed it, place him in the foreground with the crash scene in the background, and say that it was spiraling down from the sky trailing flames and smoke before it crashed and went “boom.” (Studies have demonstrated that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, even when the witness to an airplane crash is a pilot.) If a news organization cared about factual reporting they would locate an industry expert who would provide factual, broad and accurate information about the crash, without speculating as to the primary cause or contributing factors, and then explain that the NTSB is investigating and is expected to release their preliminary report in a few days, and their final report many months later. But that isn’t titillating, it doesn’t attract viewers, and it doesn’t sell pickups or La-Z-Boys.

When I see local media consistently failing to accurately report events, it diminishes their value, and not just to me. But when I see them intentionally sensationalizing aviation stories about which I know a great deal – and it harms the industry – I take it personally. And most pilots I know do too.

But thanks for wasting our few minutes reading your totally baseless response.

Brian, I expected far better from you than this.

... But that isn’t titillating, it doesn’t attract viewers, and it doesn’t sell pickups or La-Z-Boys.
...


True, and not just regarding aviation.

Well the way I read your link, the USPA is an organization that schools are free to join as long as they want to follow their guidelines. Are any of the schools in this state affiliated with them? How do you expect to get accurate injury data when you have the type of incident that happened to this guy. No one even called for medical assistance when he told them he was hurt. When driven straight to a hospital from the jump site he was immediately taken into surgery. It's not hard to keep the injury numbers down like that. Other than your gross over simplification and off base derogatory description of who you thought would be the complaintant, I have no problem with your assessment of the world of aviation. You just chose to do it by attacking someone who did nothing to deserve it.

Brian, I expected far better from you than this.

And based on your original post - I guess we know exactly what to expect from you.

Wambo, you stated that there are no stats on safety or injuries (which I had already provided in this thread), and now you’re changing the subject to USPA’s policies & members, and how injuries should be reported. The simple answer is that it’s not possible, certainly not in a meaningful way. An ED might count the injury when the victim presents for treatment, but the drop zone operator, FAA and USPA would never know if an injury occurred, or even how to define the term "injured." I don’t understand your reference to a “complaintant,” and I don’t know who you claim that I attacked. If I’m attacking anything, it is news organizations who choose to sensationalize stories rather than convey accurate information, and do so by finding people who saw little and understood less, and putting them in front of the camera. To make my point I need only mention “Sweet Brown.”

I'm honestly trying to understand, do all jump schools belong to the USPA? Or is it an organization that is available if they apply for membership? If its a voluntary membership, do any of the state schools belong to it? The stats in your link are for USPA members. Does that mean every school or not? I'm not changing the subject at all. As more info comes out so do more questions. As far as the "complaintant", I was referring to the man who told his story on the news. The one you pre-judged as having "more tattoos than teeth", and who you doubted could speak coherent English. He stated that even though he informed them that he was hurt, no medical aid was called. You're right though, if the jump school didn't call for medical aid, I guess they can say no one was injured. That's what I was referring to about keeping the injury stats down.

For anyone who cares, the young lady was discharged from the OKC hospital and is headed for a rehab facility in the greater Dallas area.
Best wishes to her.

I'm happy for her.

Last year I read an article in Popular Mechanics on how to survive a fall
from 30,000 feet. Do I want to attempt this? No. Not even from 100 feet.

Skydiver stated that she blacked out after seeing the malfunction. Texas teen in Oklahoma skydiving mishap says she blacked out | News OK (http://newsok.com/texas-teen-in-oklahoma-skydiving-mishap-says-she-blacked-out/article/3933265)