View Full Version : Civic



Pages : [1] 2 3

Pete
10-15-2013, 06:07 PM
NE corner Couch & Lee
owner= Ron & Jason Bradshaw
cost= $6 million
Butzer Gardner
contractor= Lingo Construction
height= 3 stories
acreage= acres 0.8684
34 condominiums

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/civicflatswiki1.jpg

Information & Latest News
1/18/14: Proposed $6 million housing complex (http://m.newsok.com/proposed-6-million-housing-complex-would-face-civic-center-music-hall/article/3924977)
10/15/13: OCURA issues RFP (http://ocura-ok.org/sites/default/files/files/Lee%20Couch%20RFP_101613.pdf?utm_source=Alliance+N ewsletter+-+October+2013&utm_campaign=Alliance+October+Newsletter&utm_medium=archive)
Links
Downtown Housing Summary
Urban Project Summary
County Assessor Record 1 (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R013369360)
County Assessor Record 2 (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R013369100)
Gallery
http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/couchandlee1.jpg

Praedura
10-15-2013, 10:24 PM
This is great. That area definitely needs filling in. Even more obviously so once the new courthouse/police station are built.

I would also like to see the lot to the west developed too. That is, the area just south of Legacy and east of the Museum of Art, which is mostly parking now, along with a couple of inconsequential buildings. That space especially could use a beautiful new massive mid-rise building to frame Bicentennial Park.

ljbab728
10-15-2013, 10:30 PM
I definitely agree with the infill as long as additional parking is provided. Those are the principal parking lots for people attending events at the Civic Center.

Praedura
10-15-2013, 10:39 PM
Ok, concerning the RFP...

It's great that they're considering the urban density of the area and good street level interaction. And it appears they're going to insist on quality materials, which is only appropriate as it will be next to the Civic Center and you wouldn't want to detract from that great historic structure by having some cheapie knockout building right next to it.

Now, would residential make sense? Well, it's a good area with other residential just to the north. But I'm not sure being right next to a courthouse and police station would make it the most desirable living spot (but who knows... maybe some folks would like that feature and feel safer). But I doubt the police want a residential of much height looking down over their building.

I'm hoping for a good sized structure -- at least 4 or 5 stories -- 7 or 8 stories would be even better. So I opt for office space.

Given the immediate area, it would be appropriate to have some city offices or administrative arms of arts/civic organizations in there, perhaps on the ground floor. A parking garage to be included on the site.

Don't attempt a mid-century mod look to complement the new police station (that would have some on this board flipping out). Instead go for something like the Norick Library. That is, a new building, but made with materials and coloration that allow it to blend in with older structures such as the Civic Center.

ljbab728
01-17-2014, 11:05 PM
As per Steve's article about a new proposed housing complex facing Civic Center Music Hall.

http://newsok.com/proposed-6-million-housing-complex-would-face-civic-center-music-hall/article/3924977

ljbab728
01-17-2014, 11:07 PM
6217


The proposed Civic Center Flats consists of 16 one-bedroom units and 16 two-bedroom units that will either be for rent or sale. The three-story buildings would be on the northeast corner of Couch Drive and Lee Avenue between the Civic Center Music Hall and Sycamore Square.

The developers are Ron and Jason Bradshaw, whose other projects include the Maywood Apartments, Second Street Lofts and Brownstones at Maywood Park in Deep Deuce. The team also includes Butzer Gardner Architects and Lingo Construction.


Hans Butzer, project architect, said the designs were created in careful consideration of the Civic Center Music Hall.

“It's not about mimicking or competing with the Civic Center Music Hall, but about creating a really good urban edge,” Butzer said. “We're trying to do something very unique; simple, with timeless materials with masonry and brick. It will be nice place to walk and live.”

UnFrSaKn
01-18-2014, 04:41 AM
Proposed $6 million housing complex would face Civic Center Music Hall | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/proposed-6-million-housing-complex-would-face-civic-center-music-hall/article/3924977)
(Mobile link)

bchris02
01-18-2014, 07:23 AM
Pretty cool. Bringing more people into the arts district is definitely a good thing. I would like to see more infill on all sides of the Civic Center.

OKCTalker
01-18-2014, 07:23 AM
These are stark and unattractive, and will be built right up to the sidewalk without any apparent visual diversification. It looks like the worst of Soviet-era architecture, a block of blocks, only on a small scale.

I don't think OCURA's Cathy O'Connor is bowled over by it, whose only comment in Steve's article was "We think it's a good location for residential."

I'd rather have the additional parking.

mcca7596
01-18-2014, 07:30 AM
It would be better if there was a pop of color.

Pete
01-18-2014, 07:42 AM
From the RFP:


The general guideline for the selection of suitable exterior materials is
that they work well together visually and are compatible with materials
employed with other elements of the plan (paving, street furniture, etc.).

1. The number of exterior materials (excluding glass) should be kept
to a minimum. Generally, no more than three materials should be
considered.

2. Avoid using bright colors except as accent trim.

3. Bright luminous or fluorescent colors are not acceptable.

4. The use of reflective glass on the ground floor is prohibited.

5. The exterior cladding visible from the public street is to include a
minimum of 80% brick or masonry veneer. Flat faces, unfinished
concrete masonry blocks, and ribbed and corrugated metal panels
are not acceptable.

6. EIFS may be used as accent or exterior cladding but will not
exceed 20% of the total fašade area. Use of cast stone in lieu of
EIFS is encouraged.

7. Roof colors should be limited to cool tones with a high Solar
Reflectance Index (SRI).

8. Exterior cladding employing galvanized steel, bright sheet metals,
plastic, wood or asphalt shingles, or plywood siding is not
acceptable. (Appropriate use of architectural metals is acceptable.)

mcca7596
01-18-2014, 07:51 AM
Thanks for the info .

flintysooner
01-18-2014, 08:05 AM
$6M / 32 = $187,500 per unit cost

betts
01-18-2014, 08:11 AM
Is the area right next to the Civic Center the appropriate place for affordable housing? Once built, these aren't going anywhere for at least 25 years. And I don't think we're desperate for development anymore like we were when Legacy was approved.

Of course these wont be sold for $187,000 per unit.

DoctorTaco
01-18-2014, 08:52 AM
I for one think this is awesome. A lot of people already live in that area, arguably many hundreds, between Legacy, Montgomery, Sycamore Square, etc. I think those on this board forget that, and they forget how amazingly profitable the Legacy has been for its owners. Simply put, housing in this area works. With that in mind, this project raises the bar significantly for housing in this district. Great to see. Good street level interaction, etc.

CuatrodeMayo
01-18-2014, 09:26 AM
Street-level residential units facing Couch Drive is a mistake, IMO. The street level is this area should be reserved for public/retail functions.

Pete
01-18-2014, 09:29 AM
The OCURA RFP required proposals to be housing with no retail or other use requirement, which is a bit strange given how everything else on both sides of Couch is civic.

Chadanth
01-18-2014, 09:35 AM
The OCURA RFP required proposals to be housing with no retail or other use requirement, which is a bit strange given how everything else on both sides of Couch is civic.

Are they just riding the residential boom? I think they'd regret it in a few years.

Pete
01-18-2014, 09:37 AM
Are they just riding the residential boom? I think they'd regret it in a few years.

I was just trying to remember the last time OCURA put out an RFP that wasn't specifically for housing.

Spartan
01-18-2014, 09:45 AM
I'm feeling lenient today, perhaps. I love the design because it does reflect the Civic Center as much as te architect denies it. It sounds like they were really frustrated w the OCURA demands but really wanted the development nonetheless.

I also don't get where Betts' affordable housing question comes from. This might be the priciest multifamily done in years. I agree w everyone that retail should be done on the street level on Couch.

Pete
01-18-2014, 10:01 AM
The price per unit is always going to be higher in smaller complexes because they lack economies of scale.

For example, the RFP required structured/screened parking even though it's a pretty small development. And of course, fewer units to fund the common elements in general.

So, not sure the higher price tag means these will be luxury units necessarily.


Once we get a bunch of of these housing projects open for business it will be interesting to watch rents, both the general trend and how each property is priced in comparison to others.

Will the more inexpensive developments like Maywood Apartments be able to charge as much as Level, for example? Or will properties like the Metropolitan be able to get a premium?

Heretofore, there has been so much pent-up demand that virtually everything built has a waiting list and rents reflect that.

5alive
01-18-2014, 10:13 AM
Love it

Mississippi Blues
01-18-2014, 10:18 AM
I echo the sentiments of those that love it. I also agree that retail should be done on the Couch Drive side.

tomokc
01-18-2014, 10:34 AM
The AVERAGE price is $187,500 per unit, but the project is divided equally between one- and two-bedroom units.

Yes, OCURA's RFP called for toned-down designs, but I think this is a mistake in several areas:
- Nothing reflects or compliments the Civic Center's Art Deco design (Spartan - I'm not seeing it, so can you share what I'm missing?);
- There is no interaction with the street; and
- There is no attempt to soften the appearance (public art & landscaping used to be a development requirement, softened during the bust, and hopefully reinstated).

I'm no fan of the Legacy because of its stark appearance. This project - rather than seeking to emulate the Art Deco beauty of Civic Center (and other government buildings to the east) chose instead to repeat Legacy's blandness.

Spartan
01-18-2014, 10:53 AM
Looks like a 2014 take on Art Deco...a la the new Police HQ and Courts, OKCMOA (only the east half incorporating the old Circle Theatre is truly historic), and the Bicentennial Park redesign.

I agree with all of you though that Couch Drive should be made more vibrant than it currently is. The idea of a stylish oval around the Civic Center is an idea that needs to be made more emphatic.

You can play the averaging game w the price per unit of ANY development. They're all average numbers that don't reflect the full range.

Urbanized
01-18-2014, 12:16 PM
Centre Theater, actually...

metro
01-18-2014, 01:37 PM
I don't know how I missed this originally, but glad to see more infill.

Spartan
01-18-2014, 01:39 PM
Thanks, got my wires crossed with the Tulsa indie theater.

Just to get back to my point, this design clearly reflects a lot of context and appropriateness for this district. Expect to see more of this boxy, mid-century vibe on the western side of downtown. You even see it prominently in Film Row projects like Slivr and the Hart Building. Sometimes it looks like PWA Art Deco a la Civic Center and OKCMOA, sometimes it looks more art moderne a la the new OCPD HQ, sometimes it looks more organic Art Deco like the Bicentennial Park redesign. On Classen the new Sunbeam bldg looks more Prairie School, even.

I think this is all showing us an emerging trend of architectural theme on the western side of downtown that is very interesting. I love how well this style builds off of OKC's real architectural legacy, however, the challenge is to incorporate openness, mixed-use, and street life into this style and I've yet to see that done well. Also it's worth noting that the elementary school is a major failed attempt to employ this architectural style successfully.

Sometimes McUrbandesign is just better at delivering a project that reflects what we want today such as street vitality, but I'd still like to see this more contextual style tweaked to be more successful within the context of today's urban design philosophy. It really is all about context.

soonerguru
01-18-2014, 10:48 PM
Sexy.

Just the facts
01-20-2014, 10:44 AM
This is going to be one of my favorite projects in OKC.

bchris02
01-20-2014, 10:51 AM
This is going to be one of my favorite projects in OKC.

I agree. A little more color would be nice but I like the mid-century style. It's good to start seeing more diversity in the architectural style used for downtown projects.

Plutonic Panda
01-20-2014, 07:31 PM
Man I can't wait until all of these projects show up on Google maps and replace these surface parking lots. Someone should really screen shot those lots and start a thread of before and after.

bombermwc
01-21-2014, 06:29 AM
These are stark and unattractive, and will be built right up to the sidewalk without any apparent visual diversification. It looks like the worst of Soviet-era architecture, a block of blocks, only on a small scale.

If you look at the brick work more closely, you'll see that it actually matches that of the surrounding buildings...including the Civic Center. So this was actually an attempt to make it fit in instead of stick out like a sore thumb.

I applaud the way they aren't making it scream LOOK IM DIFFERENT. Not every building should be a rainbow.

Just the facts
01-21-2014, 06:44 AM
If you look at the brick work more closely, you'll see that it actually matches that of the surrounding buildings...including the Civic Center. So this was actually an attempt to make it fit in instead of stick out like a sore thumb.

I applaud the way they aren't making it scream LOOK IM DIFFERENT. Not every building should be a rainbow.

I 100% agree. What OKC is really needs is a base level of 'sameness' so the truly unique structures can stand out. As for being mid-century, I'm not sure who started that classification for this project but I'm not seeing it. To me it looks like a toned down art-deco in an attempt to compliment the existing art deco civic buildings without competing with them.

OKCbyTRANSFER
01-21-2014, 09:42 AM
Robert S Kerr was closed today in that area, are they starting work on this project? I wassn't able to tell from my place.

soonerguru
01-21-2014, 09:44 AM
I 100% agree. What OKC is really needs is a base level of 'sameness' so the truly unique structures can stand out. As for being mid-century, I'm not sure who started that classification for this project but I'm not seeing it. To me it looks like a toned down art-deco in an attempt to compliment the existing art deco civic buildings without competing with them.

Yes. You are correct. And I applaud them for that. The Civic Center and City Hall plaza is possibly the nicest public space architecturally speaking in OKC. It would be a travesty to mar it. This project appears to be an outstanding complement.

catch22
01-21-2014, 10:02 AM
Robert S Kerr was closed today in that area, are they starting work on this project? I wassn't able to tell from my place.

Doubtful. No permits have been issued, nor has it been approved by design. On a similar note, this was a response to an RFP, was this the winning bid, or just one of several proposals?

EDIT: I actually see now it was the only response to the RFP. But OCURA still has to say if it meets their guidelines to sell the land to the developer.

Pete
01-21-2014, 10:19 AM
Yes, first step is that OCURA has to approve the application -- they'll decide in their meeting next month.

Then, it has to go to Downtown Design Review, and they probably won't file an application until after OCURA decides (which I expect they will).

ljbab728
01-21-2014, 11:02 PM
Yes, first step is that OCURA has to approve the application -- they'll decide in their meeting next month.

Then, it has to go to Downtown Design Review, and they probably won't file an application until after OCURA decides (which I expect they will).
No doubt they will approve since it has the seal of approval from OKCTALK. That is the most difficult of all approvals. LOL

adaniel
01-21-2014, 11:09 PM
As someone who just posted a ranting thread complaining about the lack of condos and townhouses for sale in OKC, this project is a godsend! I really hope they decide to put these up for sale. At under 200K, I really think these would sell well and give for-sale housing a boost in the core.

Teo9969
01-21-2014, 11:24 PM
As someone who just posted a ranting thread complaining about the lack of condos and townhouses for sale in OKC, this project is a godsend! I really hope they decide to put these up for sale. At under 200K, I really think these would sell well and give for-sale housing a boost in the core.

$6,000,000 ¸ 32 = $187,500

No way these things sell for less than $225k, and probably over $250k…

Pete
04-16-2014, 11:40 AM
Some new renderings of this project from Butzer Gardner.

Difficult to see in the one site plan but the green units are 1 bedroom and the white are 2.



http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/7481d1397669877-civic-center-flats-ccflats2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/7482d1397669878-civic-center-flats-ccflats3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/7483d1397669878-civic-center-flats-ccflats4.jpg

soonerguru
04-16-2014, 03:00 PM
Nifty.

Chadanth
04-16-2014, 04:09 PM
Any indication if these are for sale or rent?

Pete
04-16-2014, 04:17 PM
Any indication if these are for sale or rent?

That has yet to be announced.

They still have to go through a few approval processes at which time we'll learn more.

Spartan
04-18-2014, 08:31 AM
Didn't realize there are two rows.

Spartan
06-19-2014, 07:20 AM
So this must be where OCURA is partnering w Bradshaw as a land equity partner, as reported by Steve.

betts
06-19-2014, 07:48 AM
I suspect Bradshaw's interest in Maywood Park has shifted to this, since he's sold the lots on which he was going to build the Maywood Flats as well as the Maywood Apartments.

Chadanth
06-19-2014, 08:12 AM
I suspect Bradshaw's interest in Maywood Park has shifted to this, since he's sold the lots on which he was going to build the Maywood Flats as well as the Maywood Apartments.

They sold off the existing Maywood building or the land for Maywood II?

Spartan
06-19-2014, 12:01 PM
They sold off the existing Maywood building or the land for Maywood II?

I think this is all separate from the Maywood Lofts on 2nd - which is a condo board structure.

Pete
06-19-2014, 01:24 PM
Steve has an article on this today:


The project calls for 34 condominiums, ranging in size from 800 to 1,400 square feet, with the average sales price of $300,000 with the smaller units to sell for less than $200,000.

Glad to hear these will be for-sale units.

David
06-19-2014, 03:34 PM
Less than 200? Hmn.

bchris02
06-19-2014, 03:37 PM
Good to see infill starting to pick up around the Civic Center and Museum of Art.

Pete
06-19-2014, 03:38 PM
^

I hope they hold to that.

These projects are always pitched with much lower price ranges than actually prove out.

There is nothing to prevent a developer from charging as much as they want once the project gets underway, and there is so little for sale I suspect there may be a lot of pent-up demand.


Still, glad to see some more for-sale units. We need things to start swinging back that way a bit, especially with a ton of apartments in the pipeline.

betts
06-19-2014, 04:24 PM
They sold off the existing Maywood building or the land for Maywood II?

Existing Maywood Apartments. As far as I know Bradshaw is still involved with Maywood II. He owns a few of the Brownstones that haven't sold, but that's about it, besides the land for Maywood II.

BoulderSooner
06-19-2014, 05:32 PM
Less than 200? Hmn.

190k for 800 sqft. Puts them at 237 a sqft. Which is pretty much the same as block 42 cav and 2nd ave

warreng88
07-18-2014, 07:09 AM
Looks like the Civic Center Flats are listed on zillow now:

Best Match
Type Price Beds/Baths Sqft Price/Sqft

# N2 For Sale $174,340 1 bd, 1.0 ba 758 $230
# N6 For Sale $174,340 1 bd, 1.0 ba 758 $230
# N7 For Sale $174,340 1 bd, 1.0 ba 758 $230
# N3 For Sale $174,340 1 bd, 1.0 ba 758 $230
# N4 For Sale $176,180 1 bd, 1.0 ba 766 $230
# N5 For Sale $176,180 1 bd, 1.0 ba 766 $230
# S2 For Sale $177,779 1 bd, 1.0 ba 763 $233
# S5 For Sale $177,779 1 bd, 1.0 ba 763 $233
# N13 For Sale $179,410 1 bd, 1.0 ba 770 $233
# N10 For Sale $179,410 1 bd, 1.0 ba 770 $233
# N1 For Sale $181,700 1 bd, 1.0 ba 790 $230
# N8 For Sale $181,700 1 bd, 1.0 ba 790 $230
# S8 For Sale $182,597 1 bd, 1.0 ba 782 $234
# S16 For Sale $183,770 1 bd, 1.0 ba 782 $235
# S1 For Sale $184,070 1 bd, 1.0 ba 790 $233
# N14 For Sale $184,536 1 bd, 1.0 ba 792 $233
# N9 For Sale $189,290 1 bd, 1.0 ba 823 $230
# S7 For Sale $189,520 1 bd, 1.0 ba 824 $230
# S4 For Sale $324,444 2 bd, 2.0 ba 1,423 $228
# S3 For Sale $324,444 2 bd, 2.0 ba 1,423 $228
# S10 For Sale $326,656 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,408 $232
# S12 For Sale $329,590 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,433 $230
# N12 For Sale $353,050 2 bd, 2.0 ba 1,535 $230
# N11 For Sale $353,050 2 bd, 2.0 ba 1,535 $230
# N16 For Sale $354,585 2 bd, 2.0 ba 1,535 $231
# N17 For Sale $354,585 2 bd, 2.0 ba 1,535 $231
# S11 For Sale $362,250 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,575 $230
# S9 For Sale $365,470 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,589 $230
# N18 For Sale $367,774 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,606 $229
# N15 For Sale $374,873 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,637 $229
# S13 For Sale $389,759 2 bd, 3.0 ba 1,717 $227

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Oklahoma-City-OK_rb/#/b/600-Couch-Oklahoma-City-OK-73012/35.469439,-97.52266_ll/

betts
07-18-2014, 07:15 AM
For a downtown area, that's about as affordable for sale housing as you'll see anywhere. For a little perspective, my daughter who lives in SF has a friend who just sold her 400 sq.foot apartment for $600,000. $1,500 a square foot. Yeouch!

soonerguru
07-18-2014, 09:18 AM
What a ridiculous jump in cost from the one bed units to the two bed units. This bldg has no amenities. I'm giving up on downtown living in this city.

Pete
07-18-2014, 09:26 AM
^

Yes, I don't believe there will be any amenities at all; apart from parking, although uncovered.