View Full Version : Urban Vs. Suburban



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Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:19 PM
How about a civilized urban vs. suburban discussion?

I want OKC to have the beauty of the option. I realize urban living will likely win out here on this board, and that's fine.

I want the option for people to live in a place such as this:
http://arkell78.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/europe-urban-landscape-cityscape.jpg?w=510&h=286
http://www.toddarch.co.uk/cmsfiles/projects/residential/urban.jpg
http://www.sustainablecityblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Low2No-Arup-Helsinki-rendering.jpg
http://www.mech.hku.hk/sbe/case_study/case/jap/next21/next71.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WJ59-CpyBpQ/TB5x2EQYZMI/AAAAAAAAAKM/Idk34bB2xFQ/s1600/Paris+neighborhood.jpg
http://www.travelingwithmj.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Paris-neighborhood.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/78/83/03/788303b853a7b41a6271848a350490d2.jpg
http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/washington-dc/images/s/vacation-rentals.jpg
http://mazdamellenia2014.imagehostinghosting.com/di-chevy_chase_washington_dc_area-045f02ceba827b263827077b25331c44.jpg
http://washingtonsuites.smugmug.com/Local-Area-Attractions/The-Mall-Washington-DC/i-QGVp7r3/0/XL/2009_10_01_Washington_DC0172-XL.jpg
http://anglotopia.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/South-Kensington.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/european-urban-landscape-11259695.jpg
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/71/67371-004-81D9BA1E.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k305/crimsonblake/Southlake-brownstones.gif
http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/10/42/14/2237228/5/628x471.jpg

I want these kinds of places in OKC... I also want these

http://www.mytemperature.com/images/house.jpg
http://journal.c2er.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/800px-Crofton_Parkway_spring.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RaQgT.jpg
http://www.immigrate-to-a-new-life-in-perth.com/images/WoodlandsHouse5.jpg
http://www.airphotona.com/stockimg/images/01258.jpg
http://shaddockhomes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Frisco-Texas-Home-Builder.jpg
http://www.eandhphoto.com/_Media/suburban_house.jpg
http://www.blackbathroom.net/wp-content/uploads/2009-09-modern-suburban-house-design.jpg
http://www.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/designboom_suburban_beach_house01.jpg
http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/general-u-s/32699d1229630472-photos-your-houses-area-img_1472.jpg
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1829/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1829-1342.jpg
http://www.sdcwa.org/sites/default/files/images/suburban-neighborhood2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/South_San_Jose_%28crop%29.jpg

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Shopping/dining/staying at places like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Zwickau_Shopping_Mall.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2778042735_a7314013d5.jpg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/08/11/Others/Images/2013-08-11/LP_urbandesign341376251043.JPG
http://readerareadevelopment.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/tacara.jpg
http://www.jameshardie.com/images/streetscapes_vol04_pro2.jpg
http://www.urbburbblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/new-urbanism.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_L_KOKt6Ri6k/TUYp69pyYcI/AAAAAAAAAVs/6IxZdMM8aNA/s1600/new_road_brighton.jpg

and this

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9tl_56meGlE/TSnh4hLxgxI/AAAAAAAAA-U/-faBQ0-LG7Y/s1600/MARITIMO+MALL.jpg
http://www.bdp.com/Global/Projects/Wuxi%20Ikea%20Shopping%20Mall/04a_Wuxi-Ikea-Shopping-Mall_outside.jpg
http://www.edsaplan.com/files/media-image/portfolio/village-of-marbella-traffic-patterns-green-walls-933.jpg
http://www.herschmanarchitects.com/Portals/8/Images/portfolio/shopping/shopping3.jpg
http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/10/15/1255656861_2516/539w.jpg
http://img1.10bestmedia.com/Images/Photos/18365/westheimer-speedway_28_550x370_20111025171749.jpg
http://www.pcdltd.com/wp-content/gallery/creekside-at-town-center/pastprojects_b_04_big.jpg

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Having the option of transportation solutions such as these

http://sharing.krqe.com/sharewdpp/photo/2013/10/26/Detroits%20Next%20Bet_3769275_ver1.0_640_480.JPEG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ddZwFlIvdK4/UFKYBA9XO9I/AAAAAAAAD4c/c_DTrus5wGg/s1600/New-Urbanism-Detroit-Michigan-Renderings.jpg
http://www.roundaboutsusa.com/assets/galleries/634/netherlands_bike_lane_rbt.jpg
http://richmondva.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/picture1.jpg
http://www.chicagobikes.org/images/Kinzie.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Jerusalem_Light_Rail_08.jpg/1024px-Jerusalem_Light_Rail_08.jpg
http://raillife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/IMG_22101.JPG
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7234/7339864278_0ab29fb0f0_z.jpg
http://www.sustainabilityninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/seattle-light-rail.jpg
http://laist.com/attachments/laist_emma/high-speed-rail.jpg
http://blog.sfgate.com/tphilp/files/2011/09/high-speed-rail1.jpg
http://lifeofearth.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/bus-urban-transport-systems-photo.jpg
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luznimFTOV1qfdk3fo1_500.jpg
http://cities-today.com/wp-content/uploads/Guangzhou-BRT-2-C40-569x380.jpg

and these

http://royalepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/interchanges-photos-08.jpg
http://www.craphound.com/images/crazyinterchange.jpg
http://www.soulofamerica.com/phpwcms/picture/upload/image/us_cities/City%20Maps/Atl_85-20_Freeway_Xchange.jpg
http://laist.com/attachments/la_lisab/ca-163-freeway.jpg
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/katyfrway1211.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/24848555.jpg
http://www.houstonfreeways.com/HoustonFreeways/images/Desktop/Challenge/aerial/A06_249_21A_looking_NW_ADJ_ADJ_2500.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2296/2172747711_7a0c7c3614_z.jpg?zz=1
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Los_Angeles_Freeway_Interchange.jpg
http://www.ilike.org.uk/images/LA-Freeway-400.jpg


Now not all of these examples need to be to scale and most of them would likely be scaled down a little bit, but that is the general idea. I want an urban ring from I-240/I-35(to downtown) and then I235-I-44- Continued over I-40. All of that would be urbanized creating one of the biggest/dense urban cities in the US.

Now, I do like very large highways but I am NOT advocating for this:

http://aviewfromtheright.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/huge-highway-full-of-cars.jpg
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/replicate/EXID25863/images/Freeway_interchage_copy.jpg

OKC can and will become a great city and we can have balance between urban and suburban living. As technology gets more advanced, cement will be engineered to last longer and become stronger resulting in reduced road costs.

I will also post in a bit what I consider to be acceptable sprawl and out of control sprawl.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:23 PM
The poll is also based on no limitation what so ever. Money and feasibility are no object. If you had a choice on any of the four (1)Urban (2)Suburban (3)Ex-Urban (4)Rural; which would you pick?

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:24 PM
PS, this is also a special thread for Spartan, Just the Facts, and Paseofreak to understand I want new urbanism here and I want it to thrive and be successful. It seems that they think I am all about suburban and I am anti-urban.

bradh
01-06-2014, 08:25 PM
holy crap, Auchan Hypermarket! What a failed place that was in Houston!

Paseofreak
01-06-2014, 08:25 PM
Oh, I have so much to write here, but there's football on!

Just the facts
01-06-2014, 08:26 PM
The difference between urban and suburban development is the amount of taxes people want to pay. It seems a lot of people want 1/4 acre lots but they don't want to pay the tax rate to support 1/4 acre lot development. How much longer do you think that combination can last? Which option do you think will win-out in the end?

Just the facts
01-06-2014, 08:26 PM
Oh, I have so much to write here, but there's football on!

It's half-time.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:30 PM
holy crap, Auchan Hypermarket! What a failed place that was in Houston!If it failed, it was due lack of upkeep and scaled back. I guarantee you it would've been successful under certain circumstances. I did not know it was located in Houston though but I suspect if something like that were to placed on Memorial, it would be a huge hit.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:32 PM
The difference between urban and suburban development is the amount of taxes people want to pay. It seems a lot of people want 1/4 acre lots but they don't want to pay the tax rate to support 1/4 acre lot development. How much longer do you think that combination can last? Which option do you think will win-out in the end?So raise property taxes. Add a mileage tax. Raise the gas tax 10 cents. Legalize Marijuana and use that to support education resulting in a diversion of property taxes and other sorts to transit and highway funding. There are options for this.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:32 PM
Oh, I have so much to write here, but there's football on!Please do. I want a nice debate with people and want to hear their opinions on this.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:33 PM
And yes, it was me who voted for the suburban lifestyle. Not that it would be a surprise to anyone.

Paseofreak
01-06-2014, 08:33 PM
For the record, I don't think you are anti-urban, i just think suburban development and lifestyle are inherently inefficient and the further the sprawl goes it becomes exponentially harder to support and overwhelms the capacity of existing infrastructure to accommodate, and is therefore unsustainable. This remains a discussion.

Urbanized
01-06-2014, 08:35 PM
Man, that was more work than one of my 20 paragraph posts.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:43 PM
For the record, I don't think you are anti-urban, i just think suburban development and lifestyle are inherently inefficient and the further the sprawl goes it becomes exponentially harder to support and overwhelms the capacity of existing infrastructure to accommodate, and is therefore unsustainable. This remains a discussion.It is no question whether--at this rate--sprawl and suburban building styles/practices are inefficient and take tons of more money to accommodate people(which makes it possible to live there)as opposed to urban living and I understand that.

If everyone lived in cities like Paris, think how much money and energy we could save...
http://i1.likes-media.com/uimg/4f55eacdde14b15d182de43875c5aff8.600x

My argument is, people like me want to live in suburban areas for--what "we" consider--increased quality of life. Nice large private back yards and front yards(something most urban housing doesn't have). Quietness and peacefulness... birds out, big trees and gardens, children playing in the yard not on the street, etc.

I can understand wanting live in an area like Deep Deuce having the convince of walking and being able to walk to work or just taking a quick 2 minute walk to the store and back if you ran out of eggs or milk. I actually want to try living in a place like Deep Deuce one day to see if I like it.

I actually like getting in my car and driving to the store(just wished it was Tom Thumb instead of Homeland) and getting some milk and eggs. I enjoy driving my car down the highway having my own air-conditioning settings, radio(blasting music), seeing something on the side of the road and being able to stop and pull over quickly, having nice comfortable/adjustable seats. You don't really get this with buses and other mass transit. However, you have to deal with traffic and such, but I can tolerate that and willing to accept it.

I can make an argument for buses as being able to text(not that people don't do it while driving anyways), getting work done, not having to deal with car maintenance and upkeep, no gas or fuel worries, not having to deal with traffic, being able to look out the window and admire the landscape etc. There are arguments for both sides.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 08:48 PM
Also, biking is awesome to. I ride a lot around Edmond and I want to buy a Cannondale 700 from Schlegel Bicycles in Auto Alley. I just need $1,800 lol

I plan on riding 15 miles a day and want to ride from Edmond to Downtown OKC at least once a week. I have done that on a mountain bike and it was hell, but it took me about 2 hours.

bchris02
01-06-2014, 08:56 PM
I agree. OKC should expand its options for both urban and suburban living. One thing that is the truth is for a city that is so suburban oriented like this one, we don't do suburbia very well. Other cities are light years ahead in many ways in the types of suburban shopping centers and neighborhoods being built. It would be nice to see suburban neighborhoods in OKC have more quality lifestyle centers, some even mixed use rather than travesties like Belle Isle (which is the standard in OKC). It would be nice to see more landscaping and beautification in suburban areas. We see some of that in Edmond and in Norman but not so much in OKC proper. Suburbia can grow and develop with more dignity than has been the norm in OKC. For instance, take a look at the suburban neighborhoods in the pictures above. Even the tract house subdivisions have sidewalks and landscaping. Why don't we see that in OKC? Why don't we see suburban shopping centers that have some class like those pictured above? Why do they all have to be like Belle Isle? This is another area, while not talked about much on OKCTalk, where the bar needs to be raised.

bluedogok
01-06-2014, 09:07 PM
For me, ex-urban bordering on rural at this point in my life. Preferably not working downtown like we do now, I am tired of working in downtown. We rarely go downtown (except for work) unless it is for a Broncos, Rockies, Avalanche game or some other event which is only a few times a year.

bchris02
01-06-2014, 09:10 PM
As for my choice in the poll, if I had my way I would prefer to live in suburbia but with easy access to urban amenities.

flintysooner
01-06-2014, 09:17 PM
I had to think about this.

Since being an adult I've lived in suburban areas near my work and other places I go regularly. I am a little over 5 miles away now and I was even closer when I lived in the Kansas City area. So living near work and church and other family and other responsibilities has always been a big factor in choosing a place to live.

But I still have farmland both rural and exurban. Truth be told I'd rather live on the rural farm if there were no other issues except my personal preference. And the poll question was to ignore constraints.

Of course in real life there are constraints that cannot be avoided.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 09:35 PM
Here are some more shopping centers

http://www.freewebs.com/jessiedatur1953/The%20Lifestyle%20Center.jpg
http://eptdesign.com/beta/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/huacao_lifestyle_center_03.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OSiubYl3CsM/S7QYRk1YaWI/AAAAAAAAAN0/9GLHbcv3tSA/s1600/lifestyle.jpg
http://blog.mlive.com/followthemoney/2007/10/large_Birkdale.jpg
http://www.forestcity.net/properties/shop/regional_enclosed_centers/PublishingImages/Orchard-Town-Center.jpg

ljbab728
01-06-2014, 09:41 PM
Plupan, I think we get what you're trying to say.

Midtowner
01-06-2014, 09:49 PM
I loved my time living in downtown OKC. When it came time to get a big boy house, I just didn't find anything downtown which met my needs--or at least nothing south of ~$200/square foot. When I could double my square footage, pay $75/square foot, have a 2 car garage and a yard for my then, desired but non-existent dog to crap in, the math for downtown didn't add up.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 10:06 PM
I loved my time living in downtown OKC. When it came time to get a big boy house, I just didn't find anything downtown which met my needs--or at least nothing south of ~$200/square foot. When I could double my square footage, pay $75/square foot, have a 2 car garage and a yard for my then, desired but non-existent dog to crap in, the math for downtown didn't add up.Just so you know, the poll does not factor in money. So if you had unlimited funds, pick whichever you would prefer.

flintysooner
01-06-2014, 10:45 PM
I don't care about shopping centers or bars or restaurants or basketball games or crowds of people. I am glad I've gotten to enjoy all those things but they hold no interest for me now.

But being out on the Gator in the pasture or along the creek, or being in the trees so far you can't tell one direction from another -- those things thrill me now -- even when it's 7 degrees or 105.

I like buildings, especially those that are nicely designed and quality I've only lived in apartments twice in my life. Neither experience makes me ever want to do it again voluntarily.

Mel
01-06-2014, 11:05 PM
I want to live out in the sticks. With butt eating dogs and my choice of weapons. Coded gate with camera. Ready for the walkers, and salesmen.

Plutonic Panda
01-06-2014, 11:08 PM
I want to live out in the sticks. With butt eating dogs and my choice of weapons. Coded gate with camera. Ready for the walkers, and salesmen.
http://www.mw2blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Juggernaut-Concept-2.jpg

Now imagine someone in this juggernaut suit walking up to your door after you shot them saying this: "sir, do you have moment to talk about Jesus Christ and possibly buy some Vacuum Cleaners" ;)

btw, couldn't tell whether you were serious or not. The way you worded it made it sound like you were being sarcastic.

ljbab728
01-06-2014, 11:23 PM
I want to live out in the sticks. With butt eating dogs and my choice of weapons. Coded gate with camera. Ready for the walkers, and salesmen.

Not me. I grew up and lived on a farm until I was 19. It had it's moments but I want no part of that any more.

MWCGuy
01-07-2014, 12:45 AM
I think my ideal place would be rural on the outside edge of the city. I want be close enough to where I can get the essentials if I need them at the last minute. I would be happy with 5-10 acres with a house right smack dab in the middle. I would like to have a descent sized back yard with a garden and front yard where me and the wife can sit on a porch swing and watch the sun set at night. I don't expect the city to bring services to me. I will pay for everything on my little piece of the world. I would be willing to help pay to maintain the street too. After all I believe the city should focus on the main routes, the side streets should be the responsibility of the home owners and the businesses on that street.

I grew up suburban however, I don't like today's version of suburban it's too close for comfort and too cookie cutter for my taste. I like to more than a few feet between my walls and my neighbors. Right now I'm doing the apartment thing I don't care to be so close that I know when my neighbors flush.

betts
01-07-2014, 06:37 AM
I've lived on 24th and Shartel, in a slighter nicer neighborhood in inner outer Oklahoma City, in Quail Creek, in Deer Creek on 3 acres, in Nichols Hills and now downtown. So I've experienced pretty much everything available here but farm or ranch living. The only one in which I ended up unhappy was Deer Creek. I hated driving, I hated taking care of all that land, I hated the close communication with undesirable wildlife that happened quite frequently ( possums in the garage, snake in the bathtub, scorpion in the sink, skunks on the deck). I now have no children at home and didn't want to care for a big yard and I wanted all the restaurants and activities downtown. I would be blissfully happy if I had a 10' x 25' yard. A tiny bit of green is really all I crave. But, when I had kids, Nichols Hills was the best place I lived, primarily because of its close proximity to the Plaza. I loved having Crescent Market so close, loved that my kids could bike or walk to the drugstore for lunch with friends, loved the shopping in the Plaza and restaurants and shops on Western. I loved bumping in to friends when I was put shopping or dining. I think neighborhood retail pockets, like what's happening in the Plaza district, the Paseo, 23rd St. and Capitol Hill make for the best type of living for people who do want a bit of yard. There's just nothing like having a bikeable or walkable center for dining, retail and grocery shopping close by. It makes you feel so much less isolated, so much more connected to your little community. A bit of yard is nice for kids, gardening, pets. If I were younger, I'd buy a house near the Plaza District and get super involved with the schools in that neighborhood. It's amazing what effect parents can have on schools.

Right now though, even though I'd love a tiny yard, I love being close to Bricktown, downtown and Midtown more.

flintysooner
01-07-2014, 06:46 AM
I think my ideal place would be rural on the outside edge of the city. I want be close enough to where I can get the essentials if I need them at the last minute. I would be happy with 5-10 acres with a house right smack dab in the middle. I would like to have a descent sized back yard with a garden and front yard where me and the wife can sit on a porch swing and watch the sun set at night. I don't expect the city to bring services to me. I will pay for everything on my little piece of the world. I would be willing to help pay to maintain the street too. After all I believe the city should focus on the main routes, the side streets should be the responsibility of the home owners and the businesses on that street.
Pretty much the way I feel about it.


I grew up suburban however, I don't like today's version of suburban it's too close for comfort and too cookie cutter for my taste.
Exactly!


I like to more than a few feet between my walls and my neighbors. Right now I'm doing the apartment thing I don't care to be so close that I know when my neighbors flush.
I experienced that and disliked it immensely. I also was amazed at how violent and angry my neighbors could be with each other. Made me appreciate all the places I'd ever lived before that.

If I ever get to build an apartment building - and I hope to someday - then one of my goals for the project is to have the units quiet. And I'd like to do something to individualize the doors so as to help other tenants find their own places and not mine.

flintysooner
01-07-2014, 06:56 AM
I've lived on 24th and Shartel, in a slighter nicer neighborhood in inner outer Oklahoma City, in Quail Creek, in Deer Creek on 3 acres, in Nichols Hills and now downtown. So I've experienced pretty much everything available here but farm or ranch living. The only one in which I ended up unhappy was Deer Creek. I hated driving, I hated taking care of all that land, I hated the close communication with undesirable wildlife that happened quite frequently ( possums in the garage, snake in the bathtub, scorpion in the sink, skunks on the deck). I now have no children at home and didn't want to care for a big yard and I wanted all the restaurants and activities downtown. I would be blissfully happy if I had a 10' x 25' yard. A tiny bit of green is really all I crave. But, when I had kids, Nichols Hills was the best place I lived, primarily because of its close proximity to the Plaza. I loved having Crescent Market so close, loved that my kids could bike or walk to the drugstore for lunch with friends, loved the shopping in the Plaza and restaurants and shops on Western. I loved bumping in to friends when I was put shopping or dining. I think neighborhood retail pockets, like what's happening in the Plaza district, the Paseo, 23rd St. and Capitol Hill make for the best type of living for people who do want a bit of yard. There's just nothing like having a bikeable or walkable center for dining, retail and grocery shopping close by. It makes you feel so much less isolated, so much more connected to your little community. A bit of yard is nice for kids, gardening, pets. If I were younger, I'd buy a house near the Plaza District and get super involved with the schools in that neighborhood. It's amazing what effect parents can have on schools.

Right now though, even though I'd love a tiny yard, I love being close to Bricktown, downtown and Midtown more.
Great post. I think you definitely made the right move and found the sweet spot for your tastes.

I also have no kids at home although we still are caring for a parent which is a significant restraint. But I don't buy much stuff anymore and a lot of what I do buy comes from Amazon or other Internet based suppliers. So in my rural vision I'd be loathe to give up Internet.

Also I don't intend to have a "real" farm and, since money is no object, I would hire what work I needed done. I don't want to be enslaved to anyplace I live.

And I do think that is one of the issues that is causing suburban areas to decline. We've all learned that owning a home and grounds is expensive in terms of time and money. And our construction hasn't provided much in the minimal maintenance area.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 06:57 AM
For those who say they want to live in the country, which of these two options are closer to what you envision?

Nearest store miles away
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/rural1_zps1db6b038.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/KerryinJax/media/rural1_zps1db6b038.jpg.html)

Small rural village
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/rural2_zps8b0e1241.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/KerryinJax/media/rural2_zps8b0e1241.jpg.html)

flintysooner
01-07-2014, 06:59 AM
I personally want the first.

However, I am thinking about developing something like the second where the homes are clustered and actual farming and ranching is undertaken on the balance but the residents have access to the agricultural area.

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 07:38 AM
With money no object, I'd have some of each...apartment in Chicago near my kids and sprawling beach house in Florida, somewhat close to other family. However, I'd dump the Chicago place if my kids moved, it isn't that big of a draw for me on its own.

Otherwise, I'm pretty content for now with my acre about 7 miles out from middle of downtown in Council Grove down the street from Overholser. Barn that could have and has had a horse, a garage full of big boy toys, lots of room outside for the domestic animals to hang out and the wild ones to come and go. A good bit of my house is floor to ceiling windows without curtains and we enjoy having the outside part of our daily lives. Studio/workshop space and office at my business is just a few blocks away. I could have some but not all of that downtown for about ten times the money. Can't think of a reason why I would do that even if money were no object.

betts
01-07-2014, 07:53 AM
Additionally, I'd like a basement apartment in Lakeview (Chicago) to give me that bit of yard I crave and to be close to 2 of my kids - at least for the summer. Too bad my daughter likely thinks her basement is a wee bit too close.

PennyQuilts
01-07-2014, 08:46 AM
I personally think that if I didn't have grass under my feet and wildlife in abundance, I'd shrivel up and die. Concrete, to me, looks like a crypt for nature. I can't look at it without thinking of how the creatures who used to be there were wiped out to make room for malls and dental offices. I realize not everyone feels that way. Where we live is perfect for us - five acre lots situated so our view gives us more like twenty unimproved acres with a small stream for deer, fox, bobcats, owls, coyotes, etc. We can see the DT skyline off in the distance on a clear day but "going to town" is left for specific errands. The grocery store/Lowes/restaurants, etc are less than ten minutes away.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 09:55 AM
I can't look at it without thinking of how the creatures who used to be there were wiped out to make room for malls and dental offices. I realize not everyone feels that way. Where we live is perfect for us - five acre lots situated so our view gives us more like twenty unimproved acres with a small stream for deer, fox, bobcats, owls, coyotes, etc. We can see the DT skyline off in the distance on a clear day but "going to town" is left for specific errands. The grocery store/Lowes/restaurants, etc are less than ten minutes away.

Urban sprawl is the worst thing that ever happened to animals. We destroy sq. mile after sq. mile to build suburbia, pollute the environment along the way, and allow private ownership of waterfront land. When you get to that grocery store 10 minutes away how big is the parking lot?

heyerdahl
01-07-2014, 10:55 AM
Urban vs. suburban is a false question.

City/Town vs. Sprawl is the real question.

A city or town can offer suburban neighborhoods with nice homes and yards, as with most parts of Oklahoma built before 1930, and a few built up until the 1940s.

The difference is that cities and towns can provide those options:
- Efficiently for better infrastructure
- Without isolating social groups and land uses
- While allowing a choice between driving/walking/biking depending on the trip or preference

Sprawl provides those options by:
- Isolating land uses to make them far away from each other
- Isolating social groups to keep income levels separated
- Taking away all transportation options other than personal car

The point is, both city and sprawl can offer high and low density options, but a spatial arrangement as a city provides both high and low density options with greater efficiency, flexibility, and adaptability.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 11:07 AM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/9415253f928c558f96eaf5e5d159ec9b/tumblr_mnabuvFPPM1qkrc4io1_1280.jpg

Anonymous.
01-07-2014, 11:10 AM
Post #12 summed it up perfectly.

The issue is what most people in OKC want, is the inefficient lifestyle. OKC is too far gone on the scale of pro suburbia. We have only just begun to pull that line on the scale back towards urban. Obviously the people on this forum are not a representation of the overall population in OKC.

But it starts somewhere, as a city we have left the starting line; I am excited to be a part of the beginning of what the new OKC will become.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 11:34 AM
I've said before, people want their acreage but they don't want to pay the tax rate necessary to provide services to that acreage.

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 11:37 AM
Everyone should be charged accordingly. On that note...we should assess a tax on every new downtown OKC resident to pay suburbia back for all the money we've handed over to revitalize downtown for them. $1 million a year per resident wouldn't begin to cover it for some years to come but it would be a good start.

Anonymous.
01-07-2014, 11:44 AM
Everyone should be charged accordingly. On that note...we should assess a tax on every new downtown OKC resident to pay suburbia back for all the money we've handed over to revitalize downtown for them. $1 million a year per resident wouldn't begin to cover it for some years to come but it would be a good start.

I know you are joking, but the problem with your theory is that people of OKC voted. People vote on what they want, sometimes without realizing what they actually want. In effect, OKC is voting in favor of new urbanism over suburbanism. And with the obvious success of downtown, this want is only going to grow.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 11:48 AM
If you could come up with a way to charge people for the lifestyle/landuse decisions I would be all for it. Any idea what the real cost of a gallon gasoline is?

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 11:49 AM
I know you are joking, but the problem with your theory is that people of OKC voted. People vote on what they want, sometimes without realizing what they actually want. In effect, OKC is voting in favor of new urbanism over suburbanism. And with the obvious success of downtown, this want is only going to grow.

^That's what I can't stand. The arrogance to believe when I voted for a ballpark that it was a license to co-opt that into a far reaching agenda. You're part of what's wrong with politics in OKC.

heyerdahl
01-07-2014, 11:52 AM
^That's what I can't stand. The arrogance to believe when I voted for a ballpark that it was a license to co-opt that into a far reaching agenda. You're part of what's wrong with politics in OKC.

Maybe your vote has changed, but 'the people' continue to vote for downtown improvements.

Those improvements to downtown in turn have increased property values and economic activity throughout the region.

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 11:55 AM
Maybe your vote has changed, but 'the people' continue to vote for downtown improvements.

Those improvements to downtown in turn have increased property values and economic activity throughout the region.

The last vote taken and every vote taken I have voted for downtown improvements. Are you saying that's all the last round of maps is?

Because some keep trying to tell us there was more than that spread around the city.

I voted for a streetcar and a convention center. That's not a like it or lump it, screw the burbs New Urbanism mandate.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 11:59 AM
^That's what I can't stand. The arrogance to believe when I voted for a ballpark that it was a license to co-opt that into a far reaching agenda. You're part of what's wrong with politics in OKC.

Do you think the City leaders in 1993 picked a downtown location totally by accident? Whether you knew it or not, you were voting for higher density and walkability way back in 1993. MAPS I had 9 projects:

Downtown Baseball Stadium
Downtown Arena
Downtown Canal
Downtown Library
Downtown Transit Link
Downtown River
Downtown Convention Center Rehab
Downtown Civic Center Rehab
Fairground Improvement

Did you ever wonder why 8 of 9 these were centered around downtown?

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 12:00 PM
You're telling us Mick's neighborhood BS is election year BS and his real plan is to let the burbs rot?

Anonymous.
01-07-2014, 12:05 PM
The last vote taken and every vote taken I have voted for downtown improvements. Are you saying that's all the last round of maps is?

Because some keep trying to tell us there was more than that spread around the city.

I voted for a streetcar and a convention center. That's not a like it or lump it, screw the burbs New Urbanism mandate.


Which is why my original post I said "By effect, OKC is voting in favor of new urbanism".

I do not see how you can even argue against this, it is simply a fact. Voting for things that embrace new urbanism is actually voting for new urbanism.

Again, the - younger, newer, the future - of OKC wants new urbanism when they don't even realize it (yet).


It sounds more like you have an issue with MAPS and the way the packages are presented?

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 12:06 PM
You're well on your way to convincing me OKC needs to deannex me. I don't want your services and you can't have my money.

heyerdahl
01-07-2014, 12:08 PM
You're well on your way to convincing me OKC needs to deannex me. I don't want your services and you can't have my money.

You could always vote with your feet, as they say.

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 12:10 PM
I'm not a quitter and I was here before you. Or are you like JTF and you don't live here either?

OKVision4U
01-07-2014, 12:11 PM
If I'm picking a place, that little suburb called Malibu ain't bad.

That way I don't have to cross that 405. ...and I can get that In-n-Out burger off PCH & Washington in Santa Monica.

In reality, it would be something completely different.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 12:13 PM
If you took the $770 million from MAPS III and spread it evenly across 650 sq. miles over 12 years what could you build with it? Answer, nothing. I am not even sure you can plant and maintain grass for that price; but concentrate the majority of that money in a small area and you can change the whole City.

mkjeeves
01-07-2014, 12:16 PM
You might want to take a look at that poll and see what people prefer on this heavily Urbanista infected forum. You might also consider how close the votes are on the Maps projects and then keep telling us how this is a mandate for your agenda. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Just the facts
01-07-2014, 12:17 PM
You could always vote with your feet, as they say.

Where would he go - the whole country is going new urbanism. Jacksonville is largest city in the US by land area and here is what was in our paper on Sunday.

Aundra Wallace: Downtown's transformation should mean great things throughout Jacksonville | members.jacksonville.com (http://members.jacksonville.com/business/2014-01-05/story/aundra-wallace-downtowns-transformation-should-mean-great-things)


Things will be great in Jacksonville in 2014 because downtown is undergoing a transformation that will be felt throughout the entire city. As urban renewal has become a priority for stakeholders on every level across the region, our collective efforts are beginning to yield powerful results.

It’s no secret that revitalizing downtown Jacksonville is essential in attracting jobs and a diverse workforce. Strong downtowns create a competitive advantage for developers and businesses looking to invest in a city by providing a high quality of life and live-work-play balance. Successful downtowns create a beneficial cycle where employers are attracted by the large pool of employable talent, and talent is drawn to the abundance of job opportunities.

The good news is that we know that downtown Jacksonville matters to the community at large. Jacksonville Community Council Inc.’s recent JAX2025 visioning process surveyed 14,000 people to determine what type of city we want to become. Downtown Jacksonville was overwhelmingly identified as both the biggest challenge Jacksonville faces, and the most pressing area where we want to see improvement.

betts
01-07-2014, 12:32 PM
If you took the $770 million from MAPS III and spread it evenly across 650 sq. miles over 12 years what could you build with it? Answer, nothing. I am not even sure you can plant and maintain grass for that price; but concentrate the majority of that money in a small area and you can change the whole City.

What Mayor Cornett is already working toward is an RTD. That's not just spreading money over the city, but requires the suburbs to do the same. A rail and improved bus system would spread transit-oriented development through the city. That should be the next tax voters will be asked to decide upon. I don't think all the people in his neighborhood alliance are worried that he's going to let them rot. Not when we have tangible evidence that he's looking beyond downtown.

And why is MAPS for Kids always left out of the discussion, when it was not at all downtown-centric?

flintysooner
01-07-2014, 12:38 PM
I've said before, people want their acreage but they don't want to pay the tax rate necessary to provide services to that acreage.Where our farm is in Oklahoma City there is only one city service provided which is trash collection. There is no water or sewer. The city did not build the roads nor does the city maintain the roads. Police presence is nonexistent and very limited. Fire service is mainly interested in grass fire containment and often they can't get to the fire anyway. Ambulance will come though.

PennyQuilts
01-07-2014, 12:41 PM
Urban sprawl is the worst thing that ever happened to animals. We destroy sq. mile after sq. mile to build suburbia, pollute the environment along the way, and allow private ownership of waterfront land. When you get to that grocery store 10 minutes away how big is the parking lot?

A lot of it depends on how much the environment is fractured. If you break it up so that migratory patterns are disrupted or if creatures' breeding grounds are broken up, you'll have a lot worse problem than a small area here and there they can work around. And a lot depends on where you are in terms of migration or sensitive animals. When I look at NYC, I am honestly aghast that the rich area it sits on was destroyed. It is right smack in the middle of a major coastal fly way for the entire east coast. There are plenty of areas where towns and villages here and there haven't caused much of a problem. But a city? Everything under it is pretty much dead. Coyotes and some small generalist mammals or birds might venture back but for the most part, you are looking at a post apocalyptic nightmare for wild things.