After several recent trips to cities with major downtown historic art centers I started thinking it would be a big boost for OKC if the National Cowboy Hall of Fame were to relocate downtown. Not only would this boost downtown but I think it would also be a huge boost to the prominence of the center as well. Right now it is off the beaten path and barely visible from the highway and in a less the lack luster facility. Any out-of-towners would have to know it existed and where it was to even go to it. A downtown location would really enhance the awareness of it and place it in close proximity to a dozen hotel (by definition filled with visitors and out of town guests) plus it could get regular viewing on Thunder TV breaks. Their web site claims 10 million visitors since 1955 which is just over 170,000 year. They should be at 5 times that amount if properly located.

A new building for it would have to be huge and grand - even larger than life, yet close enough to the existing core that many visitors could walk to it or access it via regional mass transit. They could even break it into 4 or 5 separate museums (art, firearms, Rodeo Hall of fame, and Western Performers) each with it own building arranged in a museum district. Through in a facility for the Photography Hall of Fame and you could create a very special place. Along the east side of Central Park, maybe even using the International Harvester building, would be perfect.

Thoughts?

The city should convert the Indian museum into the Cowboy hall of fame.

The city should convert the Indian museum into the Cowboy hall of fame.

That's too far away (and that was AICC's first mistake).

I absolutely love the CHF at its current location. Plenty of parking and on the pretty side of town. There are other touristy things there like the zoo, Remington Park and some museums. The gardens around the building are lovely and peaceful. I wish I lived closer but, to me, downtown for that particular celebration of wide open spaces and freedom needs a place with trees, grass, birds and a long view.

. . . those Hurley's need to stay right where they are!! I'm a big booster of downtown, but everything doesn't need to be downtown!! We need "vibrant others" as well. . .and I'm with PQ. . .that place just calls for wide open spaces. Don't even want to think about End of the Trail surrounded by tall buildings and traffic.

The current setting is beautiful and unique, on Persimmon Hill. And the City has already pumped millions into that project.


I'd rather the City concentrate on finishing the AICCM and luring other cultural / education uses.

An OKC History Museum / Land Run Museum somewhere near the amazing Land Run Monument would be an obvious choise.

Would also like to see some some of incentive to get ASTEC downtown before they get too much further on their proposed location near the fairgrounds.

I figured there would be some who prefer the current location but think about the opportunity be passed up. This facility should be in a more prominent location that benefits both the facility and the surrounding area. Is NE63rd enhanced by the presence of this facility? Answer- nope. Is this facility enhanced by its location along NE63rd? Nope. That is the whole being less than the sums of the parts when what we need is the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

JTF, As a fan of many of your ideas, I have to agree with the others on this one. The Cowboy Hall of Fame (National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum) is in a perfect spot for what it is and what it celebrates. In my opinion, it would be totally out-of-place in an urban downtown setting.

It's certainly not off the beaten path as it resides right next to I-44 on one side and 63rd St on the other. It's not hard to find and it's located in a beautiful building. It should stay put.

You also have to take into account the foundation and the people that support it have great sentimental attachment to that site. They would never, ever want to move it.


OKC won this facility in what was somewhat of a competition and it took a ton of public support (and money) to get it open in the first place, after several stop-starts, far worse than anything we've seen at the AICCM.

Then, it was nurtured and grown time after time with lots of people working very hard to make that happen. It's now quite a complex with the grounds well integrated.

In fact, I visited for the first time in decades just a year ago and I literally didn't recognize the place. So much bigger and better and I was impressed with ever bit of the facility and the collections.


I really do think we should focus on new opportunities or other amenities that need a lot of investment at their current locations.

The Science Museum would be a much, much better candidate IMO, although again, they would probably never want to leave their location next to the zoo.

Well let me ask then - lets say it did locate downtown do you think it would have the ability to attract other cultural facilities to locate near it? In other words, do you think it could serve as major downtown anchor?

^
Depends on where it was located.

The AICCM will be bigger in scale but given where it's located, I don't think it will draw much else. They'll be lucky to get a hotel over there any time soon.

And any better location would be very expensive, especially now. Hard to imagine how this could work financially, especially because their existing facility would be hard to sell.

No, it doesn't need to move. There are other opportunities to add cultural facilities to the ones already there.

Even in its current location I think the Bruce Goff design for the Cowboy Hall of Fame would have been interesting.
Okie Mod Squad - OU School of Architecture: Style is the Ultimate Morality of the Mind, part 2 (http://okcmod.com/?p=3921)

skyline ink animation studio - Bruce Goff: A Creative Mind - Cowboy Hall of Fame 1956 (http://vimeo.com/25531491)

I may be a bit biased. I grew up in that neck of the woods and would walk to the CHF from school for our annual field trip. From the hill in the pasture where I lived I used to be able to see it shining on Persimmon Hill. I think it is perfect where it is. I also like going to the chuck wagon event on the grounds.

^
Depends on where it was located.

The AICCM will be bigger in scale but given where it's located, I don't think it will draw much else. They'll be lucky to get a hotel over there any time soon.

And any better location would be very expensive, especially now. Hard to imagine how this could work financially, especially because their existing facility would be hard to sell.

What if it was a MAPS IV project to construct 4 buildings of about 75,000 sq feet each on City owned land along the east side of the new Central Park - or maybe on the site of the Cox Center. The current facility is about 200,000 sq. feet. Too bad the Stage Center site wouldn't be available.

While located in Oklahoma City, and primarily supported by Oklahoma City/Oklahoma residents, the principals are actually representatives of a number of western states. I would think their approval would be needed for such a move.

JTF, have you been to the Cowboy Museum in the past decade? It's not as you represent it. They sunk over $30 million into it a few years ago. It is a beautiful, AAM-accredited facility. I'm just spitballing here, but I would estimate it would take a couple HUNDRED million dollars to build something of similar quality downtown, and as has been pointed out, they would never be able to replicate the charm of the site at any price.

But the most important thing, I think is that is a (the?) cornerstone of the Adventure District, which has gained much momentum in recent years. Pulling it out of the mix would be a crippling blow to an area that serves as an important front door to OKC visitors.

I think there are LOTS of other opportunities to continue to make downtown great without compromising other areas, starting with AICCM, as has been discussed already.

I have not been there in probably 10 years. If it was downtown I would have been there multiple times over the last few years. That is kind of my point. They only get 170,000 per year but should be doing 5X that based on the quality of the exhibits and its international appeal.

I have not been there in probably 10 years. If it was downtown I would have been there multiple times over the last few years. That is kind of my point.

Yes, but it's not necessarily true that they would have had better attendance in general during that time.


I completely understand your points and have posted frequently on the need to create critical mass downtown, I just think this is the wrong place to put any energy.


I will add that NE OKC is the most beautiful part of town and the Cowboy Hall and other attractions in the Adventure District provide about the only reason for most people to spend any time there. That in itself is very valuable to the community.

Would it help convince anyone if I said I am looking at a study that says the Cowboy Hall of Fame downtown would result in $2 trillion in economic activity over the next 20 years? j/k - there is no such study. :)

Just to understand this tight, you would put all the nice things in downtown and try to run the burbs into the ground?

Btw, I am a huge advocate for moving the Science Museum downtown which I'm sure you would support.

I would support the Science Museum moving downtown as well (along with the Firefighter Museum). You could create one heck of a museum mall.

1) John Travolta was in a film called "Urban Cowboy".
2) John Travolta was in a film called "Battlefield Earth".
3) Moving the Museum in question, "downtown", to "urbanize" it, would involve digging up a dead horse or two and having to rebuild the monuments to them, which might interfere with the proper development of streetcars, trollies, trains and upscale coffee shops. Not to mention the conflicts involved with that pile of dirt just south of downtown supposedly dedicated to Native American/Indian Culture and so forth.

Of course, if Mick Cornett, Ed Shadid and The Developers could all get together in support of this idea . . .
We could have a Klusterfukke of, as yet, unachieved dimness.

I think we need to wait to see the magnificent progress of The Shopping Utopia up there on Western, just south of The Kilpatrick, before any final judgment on this matter is rendered.

If "we" move the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Center to the State Fairgrounds, would anyone object to transporting Stage Center to CHoFaWHC's current location?

Say . . . Didn't the former Gaylord Dynasty attempt something like this a couple of decades ago?

I would support the Science Museum moving downtown as well (along with the Firefighter Museum). You could create one heck of a museum mall.Didn't even know there was a Fire Fighter Museum, that is pretty cool. I really want to see a new science museum built downtown and built to be better than the one in Dallas! I know it likely won't ever happen due to the renovations of the current facility, but man that would be awesome.

3) Moving the Museum in question, "downtown", to "urbanize" it, would involved digging up a dead horse or two and having to rebuild the monuments to them,...

Which brings me to one of my other ideas - downtown could use a couple of cemeteries - where some famous Oklahomans alive today might choose to be buried in the future. You have to start making history at some point in time.

Which brings me to one of my other ideas - downtown could use a couple of cemeteries - where some famous Oklahomans alive today might choose to be buried in the future. You have to start making history at some point in time.What kind of cemeteries where you thinking of? Like this one in China but on a smaller scale?

http://www.philippines-travel-guide.com/images/chinese-cemetery-manila.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-0099-c08e-05d2/chinese-cemetery-manila-philippines+1152_12773663527-tpfil02aw-22763.jpg

I bet it's been 40 years since I've been to the Cowboy Hall of Fame. I should probably go check it out again.

Maybe more like this.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Paris%20New%20Years%202013-14/Montmartre/CAM00501_zpsewxuvf6t.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/KerryinJax/media/Paris%20New%20Years%202013-14/Montmartre/CAM00501_zpsewxuvf6t.jpg.html)

I bet it's been 40 years since I've been to the Cowboy Hall of Fame. I should probably go check it out again.

When was the last time you were downtown?

Rather than move museums DT, why not better promote the long existing museum district. There's the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum and the Science Museum and the Firefighter Museum is close proximity. Also nearby are the 45th Infantry museum and the softball hall of fame & museum. In addition there is of course the zoo, the track/racino and a bit to the north the amusement park.

Seems to make more sense to improve what exists than to start it over.

I wonder how many Millennial Hipsters would visit the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum if were located within easy walking or bicycling distance . . . I would guess about the same number as today.

When was the last time you were downtown?

Dec 12th for the BC Clark party thing they do every year. Free wine and hors d'oeuvres. I know someone that works there and they raffle off a lot of nice expensive things every year. Then the wife and I at at Toby Keiths. I really don't go downtown too much. Maybe 4-5 times a year.

I bet it's been 40 years since I've been to the Cowboy Hall of Fame. I should probably go check it out again.

You really should. They are doing a fabulous job with it. It is a treasure. We support it and have family tickets and I go 2-3 times a year.

How about if we move Downtown closer to The Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum?
('course, we shouldn't expect to keep up with Jacksonville, FLA, on account o' they beat OKC out o' the Number One Ranking for Urban Sprawl, yet . . .)

The Thunderbird Chapter of the Telephone Pioneers of which I'm a member used to have their monthly luncheons at the CHOF. I never went to one of those either. So is there a restaurant there or some kind of dining facility?

The Thunderbird Chapter of the Telephone Pioneers of which I'm a member used to have their monthly luncheons at the CHOF. I never went to one of those either. So is there a restaurant there or some kind of dining facility?


There is a restaurant.

Dining on Persimmon Hill (http://nationalcowboymuseum.org/info/DiningonPersimmonHill.aspx)

There is also a very nice banquet room which hosts many large gatherings.

Special Events Center (SEC) (http://nationalcowboymuseum.org/info/rentals/SEC.aspx)

You really should. They are doing a fabulous job with it. It is a treasure. We support it and have family tickets and I go 2-3 times a year.

I plead guilty to not having been there in years. However, I think for a long time that many of us locals got really tired of it in the 70's and 80's. That was in a time when you didn't ask people where to take people from out-of-town, we all knew: The Cowboy Hall of Fame. It seemed to be all there was! Of course it probably wasn't, but back then it sure seemed like it and things are so different now with many, many options. I have got to get back out there and see that place. So much has changed from all I've heard. Seriously, it's going on my to-go list (and soon). Thanks for the extra push, Penny.

I wonder how many Millennial Hipsters would visit the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum if were located within easy walking or bicycling distance . . .

There has been some talk of a doing a train on rail line that goes through the adventure district; I don't know what actual stops might have been considered but the Softball Complex, Firefighters Museum, the golf course, Oklahoma Railway Museum are all within walking distance of the existing track and the Cowboy Hall of Fame, Zoo, Science Museum, Remington Park look like could be accessible if new track was laid on the clear zone next to Grand Boulevard. The bridge under i44 at Grand even looks like it has the space to run a line through it without modification.

I wonder how many Millennial Hipsters would visit the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum if were located within easy walking or bicycling distance . . . I would guess about the same number as today.

You put a coffee/pastry shop, museum bookstore, and free wi-fi in it and you would have to beat them off with a stick.

I wonder how many Millennial Hipsters would visit the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum if were located within easy walking or bicycling distance . . . I would guess about the same number as today.

I barely fall into the Millennial category and it's probably my second favorite museum in town, after the Sam Noble Natural History museum. And I'm about as far from a cowboy as you can get.

I still don't understand why the exhibit with hundreds of different kinds of barbed wire is as fascinating as it is.

Anyone notice how the people who want to keep it where it is haven't been there in years and those of us who would like to go want it in a more convenient location? If you owned a business and the people who want to frequent your store want you to move and the people who don't visit your business want you to stay - who would you listen to?

Dec 12th for the BC Clark party thing they do every year. Free wine and hors d'oeuvres. I know someone that works there and they raffle off a lot of nice expensive things every year. Then the wife and I at at Toby Keiths. I really don't go downtown too much. Maybe 4-5 times a year.

So if this was downtown then 4 or 5 times a year you would either see this museum or be within walking distance of the entrance. Do you think being in that proximity would encourage you to visit, even if it was just to peruse the museum store?

Anyone notice how the people who want to keep it where it is haven't been there in years and those of us who would like to go want it in a more convenient location? If you owned a business and the people who want to frequent your store want you to move and the people who don't visit your business want you to stay - who would you listen to?

I'm actually pretty cool with where it is now. It's an attractive location and clearly a lot of money has been put into it. I'd rather see new things in downtown.

I guess I have to ask NoOkie - when is the last time you went, and how many times a year do you go downtown?

I guess I have to ask NoOkie - when is the last time you went, and how many times a year do you go downtown?

I went last spring. And I probably go downtown 15-20 times a year, on average.

Does anyone know if attendance at the OKC Museum of Art has improved since moving from the fairgrounds to downtown? I know from a 'place' perspective the OKCMA enhances downtown more than it enhanced the fairgrounds.

The current setting is beautiful and unique, on Persimmon Hill. And the City has already pumped millions into that project.


I'd rather the City concentrate on finishing the AICCM and luring other cultural / education uses.

An OKC History Museum / Land Run Museum somewhere near the amazing Land Run Monument would be an obvious choise.

Would also like to see some some of incentive to get ASTEC downtown before they get too much further on their proposed location near the fairgrounds.

Aside from finishing the AICCM, agree with this. Leave the Cowboy Hall alone. Rebuilding downtown doesn't mean going on a land grab to snatch other existing, iconic landmarks in what would be a rather naked effort to pull more folks into the core. Just as the Stage Center has never integrated into the broader soul of OKC but for a few who like its architectural uniqueness, the Cowboy Hall is as much an iconic part of Oklahoma City as anything we have, and thus trying to drag it downtown just doesn't make sense.

I beg to differ SoonerDave. By moving it downtown I think it would heighten its profile and awareness in the City and becomes more a part of community than ever before - but that is just me.

I barely fall into the Millennial category and it's probably my second favorite museum in town, after the Sam Noble Natural History museum. And I'm about as far from a cowboy as you can get.

I still don't understand why the exhibit with hundreds of different kinds of barbed wire is as fascinating as it is.

I trust you pronounce it "bob whar" . . .

So . . . How about a compromise? Stage Center stays where it is and is transformed into a satellite campus for the real thing and renamed The Urban Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum?

I trust you pronounce it "bob whar" . . .

So . . . How about a compromise? Stage Center stays where it is and is transformed into a satellite campus for the real thing and renamed The Urban Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum?

I can, when pressed, adopt the appropriate accent.

And I'm OK with the Urban Cowboy Hall of Fame, as long as it includes a shrine to Travolta.

Anyone notice how the people who want to keep it where it is haven't been there in years and those of us who would like to go want it in a more convenient location? If you owned a business and the people who want to frequent your store want you to move and the people who don't visit your business want you to stay - who would you listen to?

So besides you, who all wants to move the place?

It will have several mechanical bulls--each surrounded by a different type of bob whar--representing the end of the free range cattle drives from Texas to Kansas City.

I can, when pressed, adopt the appropriate accent.

And I'm OK with the Urban Cowboy Hall of Fame, as long as it includes a shrine to Travolta.

And if it is in the Stage Center...we can tie in the film exchange and have a showcase for Blazing Saddles. "Excuse me while I whip this out"

You put a coffee/pastry shop, museum bookstore, and free wi-fi in it and you would have to beat them off with a stick.

Right now it has a restaurant, hosts conventions, has concerts, workshops on the grounds, etc. It is a dynamic operation and there is always something new going on out there. Easy as pie to get to, no traffic and just beautifully laid out. You really, really, really owe it to yourself to visit. I have always loved it but compared to even fifteen years ago, it knocks my socks off.

I barely fall into the Millennial category and it's probably my second favorite museum in town, after the Sam Noble Natural History museum. And I'm about as far from a cowboy as you can get.

I still don't understand why the exhibit with hundreds of different kinds of barbed wire is as fascinating as it is.
OMG, I know what you mean. Last time I was there I spent 15 minutes looking at the barbed (bob) wire and even at the time was perplexed as to why I found it so fascinating. But it was! Good exhibit.

So besides you, who all wants to move the place?

Clearly on OKCTalk I am in the minority on this topic - but that is nothing new for me. When a group of people are trudging though the jungle someone has to be on point hacking away at the bushes.

KW5OeU1jOVw

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum (http://www.nationalcowboymuseum.org)

Do check it out, jtf. You may better see why the museum shouldn't be downtown. It's big and the grounds/layout was perfectly developed to compliment its current location. This is not a building where you go inside, shut the door and look at pretty exhibits. Absent the large grounds, it would just be another museum that was a checkmark to visitors.

Clearly on OKCTalk I am in the minority on this topic - but that is nothing new for me. When a group of people are trudging though the jungle someone has to be on point hacking away at the bushes.

Clearly.

The Prix de West is the biggest draw for me at the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum.

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum (http://www.nationalcowboymuseum.org)

Do check it out, jtf. You may better see why the museum shouldn't be downtown. It's big and the grounds/layout was perfectly developed to compliment its current location. This is not a building where you go inside, shut the door and look at pretty exhibits. Absent the large grounds, it would just be another museum that was a checkmark to visitors.

I've been there 3 times.

I've been there 3 times.

Oh, I thought you said not recently. My mistake, then.