View Full Version : Ed Shadid Launches Formal Attack on MAPS 3 Conv Center in tandem with Mayoral Bid



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Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 05:55 PM
A petition has been filed to halt funding for a new hotel and convention center in downtown Oklahoma City, which would cost an estimated $250 million in MAPS 3 funding. Tim Farley (http://okgazette.com/oklahoma/by-author-800-1.html) January 2nd, 2014

A citizens group led by Oklahoma City’s Ward 2 Councilman Ed Shadid plans to ask voters to prevent the construction of the MAPS 3 downtown convention center.
Shadid claims city and Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce officials were not honest with voters before the 2009 MAPS 3 election, particularly with the convention center project and a related convention center hotel. The convention center could cost taxpayers an estimated $250 million, but the hotel would not receive MAPS 3 funding.

Voters approved the extension of the MAPS 3 one-cent sales tax in 2009, but not specific projects.

READ MORE HERE- Oklahoma Gazette News: Another hotel and convention center? (http://okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-20189-another-hotel-and-convention-center.html)

Pete
01-02-2014, 06:06 PM
Not sure if this is the best way to handle this but the whole thing with the convention center has been a bit shady.

1. Consultants say the CC won't work without an expensive, adjacent hotel
2. Consultants also say that the City would have to come up with at least $50 million to subsidize said hotel
3. The CC was moved up in the MAPS 3 schedule even though the hotel issue is completely unresolved
4. The City is in the act of acquiring very expensive land for the CC with the hotel issue unresolved


So, why are we moving forward with something we know won't work without another piece which is completely up in the air?

Why not resolve the hotel issue BEFORE we spend more money (plenty has already been spent on consultants) on the CC?

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 06:11 PM
I personally agree with Larry Nichols. He has stated that he thinks the free market ought to take care of the hotel needs.

Even our own Mayor Cornett, hasn't jumped on the "we should build a hotel" bandwagon.

I wasn't exactly the biggest supporter of the CC either. But after visiting many cities and actually participating in several conventions (both as a attendee and a vendor with a booth), I understand why there is a push for a new building / complex.

mkjeeves
01-02-2014, 06:13 PM
Some people might should have let Ed have his chickens.

OKCisOK4me
01-02-2014, 06:16 PM
Hey, if he wins, just send that ole money on over to the Streetcar project. That'd be fanTAStic!

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 06:17 PM
LOL. That's awesome Mkjeeves. This strikes me more as a ploy to change the conversation away from his personal matters. I do think that they can raise 6,000 signatures though. It is entirely possible.

Pete
01-02-2014, 06:17 PM
I personally agree with Larry Nichols. He has stated that he thinks the free market ought to take care of the hotel needs.

Meaning that we should just build the CC and hope someone wants to develop the hotel?

The problem with that is our paid consultants who told us we needed this in the first place are also saying it won't work without the hotel, and that the City will have to pump in at least $50 million. Or do I have that wrong?

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 06:19 PM
Hey, if he wins, just send that ole money on over to the Streetcar project. That'd be fanTAStic!

You missed the second part where they are running a second initiative to end the tax early instead of allowing the $250 million to accrue without a cause. Assuming they pull it off, I suspect that would really affect our timing in developing Regional Transit Authority framework vote.

OKCisOK4me
01-02-2014, 06:23 PM
Yep, missed that, Jeff!

I don't know who is worse...Ed Shadid against OKC or Obama against USA (for all the conspiracy nuts, lol).

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 06:24 PM
Meaning that we should just build the CC and hope someone wants to develop the hotel?

The problem with that is our paid consultants who told us we needed this in the first place are also saying it won't work without the hotel, and that the City will have to pump in at least $50 million. Or do I have that wrong?

The way I interpreted his comments is that the "free market" should handle the load in a distributed way. Of course, I personally believe that the streetcar connects almost all of the existing hotel stock to the site and there are plenty of sites still available along the line for hotels. Why do we have to do a Convention Center hotel like everyone else? Why can't transit connectivity to free market solutions resolve the issue?

Pete
01-02-2014, 06:27 PM
^

Because we paid a ton of money to consultants who told us we needed this and how to build it, and they were very specific about the attached hotel.

Seems like very dangerous business to disregard their advice in one area; just pick and choose what we want to do because of budget constraints?


Ed's point is that the City knew the hotel had to be a part of this and that it would cost taxpayers a bunch of money, but they withheld that information. Now, it's come out and we're proceeding anyway?

As I said, I'm not sure this is the best way to handle the situation but it is one that needs to be addressed, and soon. They are already way down the line on this.


If the decision is to just take our chances with the hotel, that should be stated.

bchris02
01-02-2014, 06:28 PM
Hey, if he wins, just send that ole money on over to the Streetcar project. That'd be fanTAStic!

The convention center is more important, in my opinion, than the streetcar. As I said in the other thread, the Cox Center, today, is an appropriate convention center/arena for a city the size of Little Rock or Wichita. Does anybody seriously think the Cox Center will suffice for OKC in 20 years if population growth remains steady? What if the Peake had never been built and the Cox Arena was all that OKC had? It's incredibly shortsighted to attempt to derail this convention center. OKC will never get big name conventions - the kind of thing bring major dollars into the city and huge exposure to businesses and tourists - without this new convention center.

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 06:35 PM
Pete I guess I don't know what the dynamics are in the Convention Center being considered "successful". We are paying for the Convention Center structure with cash. In the basic sense, it is our new "living room" for the city and those visiting us.

If we don't have enough business, why don't we tear down the Cox and put that site up for redevelopment? Surely we would be at least meeting existing annual attendance with some new attendance as well? Enough to keep the place maintained you would think.

kevinpate
01-02-2014, 06:38 PM
... I do think that they can raise 6,000 signatures though. It is entirely possible.

Given the historic levels of nay votes on any MAPs project, if someone can't secure 6000 signatures, in record time, to force a vote to cut a temp tax by near on 1/3 and do away with a CC that even a lot of supporters aren't backflipping supporters but are lukewarm yeah, ok I can put up with it supporters, then frankly, they ain't even tried to get it done.

That's not to say I think it absolutely ought to be trashed. Only that if there is a project that someone can whip up folks over, it would be the cc. I don't think one even has to concentrate on the aginner crowd. There was no shortage of folks who loved other parts of MAPs that held their nose and now would be just as happy to not fret the cc bing on the horizon.

Sort of makes me wonder if Ed truly, truly hated the street car or if it was just used as a ruse to start whipping up emotions in general before hunting the big game.

Pete
01-02-2014, 06:39 PM
I'm just saying we need to have a specific plan before spending $250 million (at least) on something that won't work without the hotel.

It's not just the money... It's about having a possible white elephant taking the entire area between the Myriad Gardens and two other massive tax-fueled developments: the boulevard and Central Park.


It just seems capricious to go forward in this manner... Just hoping things will work out even though the consultants have told us that it won't.

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 06:49 PM
Sort of makes me wonder if Ed truly, truly hated the street car or if it was just used as a ruse to start whipping up emotions in general before hunting the big game.

Both. He wants the streetcar money for buses even though he doesn't have a solution for the ongoing operating costs of said buses. 2nd, he knows that the streetcar has historically been supported by a majority of Oklahomacitian's and has organized support. He has beat us up over the streetcar but we have beat him up on his attempts to "revoke the vote" for it as well. Nobody on the streetcar project doesn't support broader transit improvements. And that is why we support the formation of the Regional Transit Authority (ideally when the MAPS 3 tax was projected to end in 2017).

MAPS 3 passed and not installing it as promoted to the voters is incredibly patronizing by Ed.

betts
01-02-2014, 06:58 PM
Sort of makes me wonder if Ed truly, truly hated the street car or if it was just used as a ruse to start whipping up emotions in general before hunting the big game.

Ed only knows how to break, not to build. He represents chaos, not consensus. He's the worst thing I can think of for a city. Yes, he was truly against the streetcar. My guess is that he's looked at the popularity of the convention center project. It had the lowest approval of any of the projects. He figures if he has a chance with anything, it will be stopping the convention center. I do wonder, though, since none of the projects were listed on the ballot, how you legally remove something that no one voted on in the first place.

My second thought is: for someone who rails against the city spending money on things it doesn't need, what we really don't need to do is spend money to redo an election. Do we keep voting until he gets the answer he wants?

And, does he really think that he can redirect that money somewhere else? He wants money for the bus system, but he's doing a marvelous job of uniting multiple coalitions against him. People will vote against things because he proposes them, regardless of their merit. He truly is a narcicisst. Bad, bad, bad personality trait for someone leading people - unless you want a dictator.

onthestrip
01-02-2014, 07:05 PM
I'm just saying we need to have a specific plan before spending $250 million (at least) on something that won't work without the hotel.

It's not just the money... It's about having a possible white elephant taking the entire area between the Myriad Gardens and two other massive tax-fueled developments: the boulevard and Central Park.


It just seems capricious to go forward in this manner... Just hoping things will work out even though the consultants have told us that it won't.

I'm having a hard team believing the thinking that the new convention simply won't work without a 500+ room hotel that we are supposed to subsidize. I say build the convention center and wait it out or simply don't build a hotel and let them do what current convention goers do now, stay at on of the other dozen downtown hotels.

flintysooner
01-02-2014, 07:12 PM
Ed only knows how to break, not to build. He represents chaos, not consensus.I was just reading comments from people on his facebook page and came to the same conclusion. Those commenting do not seem to me to want to build anything but destroy everything possible.

Pete
01-02-2014, 07:12 PM
I'm having a hard team believing the thinking that the new convention simply won't work without a 500+ room hotel that we are supposed to subsidize. I say build the convention center and wait it out or simply don't build a hotel and let them do what current convention goers do now, stay at on of the other dozen downtown hotels.

But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

Urban Pioneer
01-02-2014, 07:25 PM
But what does "will work" mean?

One has to assume it will generate enough of it's own revenue to keep the lights on and the building maintained?

LakeEffect
01-02-2014, 07:26 PM
But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

Isn't a separate consultant on board and under contract w/ the Alliance to develop specific funding/development ideas for the hotel? Not sure when that will be ready, but I think it's relatively soon...

onthestrip
01-02-2014, 07:27 PM
But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

First, I see this new convention simply as a shiny new replacement for our current and not attractive center. I'm sure it can get a few more events and host more at once but I'm not expecting it to bring comic con or the consumer electronic show, because we won't get those big events with or without a hotel. I'm fine with it being a new, modern update to the cox center.

Second, I'm not inclined to believe everything these consultants say. The ones we have mostly heard from were picked by the powers that be to "consult" us because they will show positive things about the convention industry. Shadid did or tried to bring in a consultant that says the opposite about the convention industry.

We voted and passed this maps because of the things in it and nothing more. I think as soon as we don't build something as was stated on the ballot, or try to add more, we can kiss the maps franchise goodbye.

flintysooner
01-02-2014, 07:36 PM
First, I see this new convention simply as a shiny new replacement for our current and not attractive center. I'm sure it can get a few more events and host more at once but I'm not expecting it to bring comic con or the consumer electronic show, because we won't get those big events with or without a hotel. I'm fine with it being a new, modern update to the cox center.

Second, I'm not inclined to believe everything these consultants say. The ones we have mostly heard from were picked by the powers that be to "consult" us because they will show positive things about the convention industry. Shadid did or tried to bring in a consultant that says the opposite about the convention industry.

We voted and passed this maps because of the things in it and nothing more. I think as soon as we don't build something as was stated on the ballot, or try to add more, we can kiss the maps franchise goodbye.I agree with all this. If there is such success a new hotel is mandated then that issue can be addressed then. The Myriad is becoming less and less functional.

Pete
01-02-2014, 07:39 PM
I'd be far more okay with this if it was a certainty that we would be demolishing most or all of the Cox Center in the near future.

It's far more likely we'll have two huge boxes taking up two entire borders of the Myriad Gardens.

Plutonic Panda
01-02-2014, 08:26 PM
This convention center needs to be built with a nice luxurious tall hotel.

bchris02
01-02-2014, 08:31 PM
This convention center needs to be built with a nice luxurious tall hotel.

My vote is for something like this.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/d2/44/e1/the-westin-warsaw-exterior.jpg

It's probably a longshot though.

PWitty
01-02-2014, 08:46 PM
But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

The consultants are probably accustomed to CC's having hotels attached to them, so they're obviously going to make recommendations based on their previous experience. That previous experience being that there should be a hotel attached. I doubt they have seen enough without attached hotels to recommend it with confidence, but that doesn't mean it couldn't work.

flintysooner
01-02-2014, 09:21 PM
There is little doubt that it would work better with a convention hotel and probably for some of the better events a hotel will be a necessity.

But the Cox needs to be replaced even for existing convention business and that business is currently working without a hotel.

So I really do not have a big problem with building the center first without a hotel just to replace the Cox.

That said I would have no problem at all voting in favor of helping finance a convention hotel either.

zookeeper
01-02-2014, 09:27 PM
My vote is for something like this.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/d2/44/e1/the-westin-warsaw-exterior.jpg

It's probably a longshot though.

Hard to believe that's in Poland. Warsaw under communism was so dreary.

RadicalModerate
01-03-2014, 08:28 AM
I'm not sure about any connection between this gentleman and Ed Shadid, yet he expresses some interesting thoughts here
9toccDfkfvg

shawnw
01-03-2014, 09:29 AM
I do wonder, though, since none of the projects were listed on the ballot, how you legally remove something that no one voted on in the first place.

Maybe he's doing an end-around to kill the streetcar. Legally invalidate one MAPS III project and invalidate them all, stop the tax collection immediately after the vote, all projects not yet funded die.

bradh
01-03-2014, 09:30 AM
I can't believe this clown seems set out to destroy the one thing that turned this city around.

RadicalModerate
01-03-2014, 10:16 AM
I can't believe this clown seems set out to destroy the one thing that turned this city around.
By "the one thing" are you referring to the MAPS concept/projects or the imaginary Convention Center? (oh, those pesky pronouns--and articles)

bradh
01-03-2014, 10:35 AM
By "the one thing" are you referring to the MAPS concept/projects or the imaginary Convention Center? (oh, those pesky pronouns--and articles)

MAPS as a whole

RadicalModerate
01-03-2014, 10:49 AM
MAPS as a whole

Glad you clarified that . . . =) I think that MAPS was one of the most brilliant, productive and positive ideas that ever blessed OKC. I also believe funds shouldn't be monopolized by any sort of "good ol' boy" network simply to line "their" pockets at the expense of alternative concepts that could be more generally appreciated, in every sense of that term. After all is said and done, Mick Cornett is one of the best spokespersons ever for OKC and "doing the right thing" (see his TED Talk elsewhere in here, for example). I'd vote for him . . . but I can't because I live in one of the "suburban islands" surrounded by OKC. So I can't imagine why any of this means anything to me, no how. =)

betts
01-03-2014, 11:38 AM
Maybe he's doing an end-around to kill the streetcar. Legally invalidate one MAPS III project and invalidate them all, stop the tax collection immediately after the vote, all projects not yet funded die.

That's my question. How do you legally invalidate one when it wasn't on the ballot? No one voted for or against a convention center specifically, or anything else.

shawnw
01-03-2014, 11:52 AM
I guess I meant invalidate all of them to invalidate the one... so he's going after the CC but doesn't mind the collateral damage of the streetcar and other projects dying...

bchris02
01-03-2014, 11:52 AM
Without MAPS, OKC would be nothing but a giant Amarillo. This city would probably be losing population at a brisk rate by now. It would be on the list with Detroit as being a failed city. MAPS saved OKC, so it's absolutely mind boggling anybody would oppose it or want to tarnish the MAPS brand. Politicians will do some insane things however to please special interest groups or a good ole boy network. Mayor Ray Baker pretty much killed Fort Smith, Arkansas in the 1990s and early 2000s with his cronyism and stiff opposition to economic growth of any kind. I would hate to see OKC go down that route.

SoonerDave
01-03-2014, 11:53 AM
We've got a real rock-and-hard-place problem here, but it sure seems like there's an opportunity for someone in the private side to propose some kind of unique public/private partnership to get the hotel built. What about a TIF district?

I know the history of the CC is a bit sketchy, and I do believe MAPS 3 was constructed primarily to get a relatively less-than-popular convention center constructed. All that said, it was on the ballot, the ballot passed, and a CC is on the way. We know the consultants are urging us to do a hotel in tandem with it, and unless we think there's something sinister about the consultant's motives, we should take that recommendation seriously.

Some sort of public-private partnership, of what form I'm not necessarily smart enough to suggest, should figure out some out-of-the-box way to get this done. Because the other end of this is to get a resolution through the council to change the language of the MAPS resolution of intent to - guess what - include a hotel and have it financed via the MAPS tax. And that would do nothing but delight the Shadid crowd and inflame the anti-MAPS rhetoric. That's a bad plan, and surely Cornett knows it.

That's why someone from the private side has to come forward with some creative partnering arrangement to get this thing done. No matter the ulterior motives going in, we need to do this thing correctly.

RadicalModerate
01-03-2014, 12:06 PM
Perhaps "The Convention Center" is sort of a dumb as a fox, half-assed, "insider deal" concept, banking on the general goodwill fostered, initially, by MAPS? (as i said, previously, as an OKC Island Dweller: MAPS Good. convention center? hmmm. not sure.)

please note that the phrasing of the above question? was simply an outliers attempt to mirror the phrasing of the Thread Topic.
i should probably express appreciation to the OP for linking bicycles (tandem) and rocket science (launches).

trousers
01-03-2014, 12:13 PM
Perhaps "The Convention Center" is sort of a dumb as a fox, half-assed, "insider deal" concept, banking on the general goodwill fostered, initially, by MAPS? (as i said, previously, as an OKC Island Dweller: MAPS Good. convention center? hmmm. not sure.

This is the general feeling of a lot of people I know. They may not be in the same loop of info as this board but this is what they think and they vote accordingly.

warreng88
01-03-2014, 12:21 PM
Here is the Oklahoman coverage on it:

Oklahoma City councilman Shadid calls for votes to strip MAPS 3 convention center, end tax collection early

A pair of initiative petitions filed in municipal court by Oklahoma City Councilman Ed Shadid would challenge key aspects of MAPS 3 plan.

By William Crum
Published: January 3, 2014

Ward 2 Oklahoma City Councilman Ed Shadid is leading an effort to call a vote on whether to strip the $280 million convention center from MAPS 3 and end collection of the sales tax more than two years early.

Advocates have 90 days to collect signatures of at least 6,035 Oklahoma City voters. If they are successful, the question most likely would go before voters in March 2015, unless city council members were to agree to call a special election.

The convention center is one of eight projects promised to Oklahoma City voters who approved the 1-cent MAPS 3 sales tax four years ago.

The $777 million building program includes a new downtown park and streetcar system, sidewalks and trails, senior wellness centers and improvements to the Oklahoma River.

The convention center is the most expensive MAPS 3 project.

Shadid, who has said he is running for mayor in the March 4 election, has contended voters in 2009 were denied access to information that a hotel likely would have to accompany development of the convention center to make the project a success. He has said constructing a hotel likely would require taxpayer subsidies of $50 million to $200 million.

Shadid was ill Friday and was unavailable for comment.

Oklahoma City Clerk Frances Kersey said Harrah attorney Lance Cargill on Thursday afternoon filed two initiative petitions aimed at calling votes on MAPS 3.

One petition would specify that projects funded by the MAPS 3 sales tax could not include a convention center. The other would end MAPS 3 sales tax collections on July 1, 2015. The MAPS 3 sales tax as approved by voters is to run through 2017.

MAPS 3 is a pay-as-you-go public improvements program designed to avoid public debt and to leverage private investment. It is a successor to the original MAPS program approved by voters in 1993 and to MAPS for Kids, a program to renovate and upgrade public school buildings. Projects have been funded by successive 1-cent sales taxes.

MAPS is credited with laying the groundwork for the Oklahoma City renaissance, leveraging investments that revitalized downtown, created internationally recognized rowing and kayaking venues on the Oklahoma River, and transformed Bricktown into an entertainment district.

Oklahoma City councilman Shadid calls for votes to strip MAPS 3 convention center, end tax collection early | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-councilman-shadid-calls-for-votes-to-strip-maps-3-convention-center-end-tax-collection-early/article/3920296/?page=2)

What a dick...

warreng88
01-03-2014, 12:26 PM
I hope he gets absolutely obliterated in the Mayoral election. I would like to see more dirt on him and his life completely ruined to where he never steps foot in OKC ever again. I hope his practice goes under and has to move back to Chicago or SF.

shawnw
01-03-2014, 12:31 PM
Steve's point from the chat today is a good one:


Steve: ...I'm not aware of another time in our city's history when a sitting city council member attempted to overturn a previous vote by taxpayers.



(though I don't agree with wishing ill will on him personally)

betts
01-03-2014, 12:37 PM
This is the general feeling of a lot of people I know. They may not be in the same loop of info as this board but this is what they think and they vote accordingly.

Yeah, that's that "it's not fair that the rich are rich" attitude that seems so pervasive right now. Every building that is built, every piece of land that is sold, every park that is built, every statue that's erected makes money for someone - but not me. I haven't made a dime off a single MAPS project, nor will I. I don't have the money or the talent to be a developer, or contractor or whatever. I also don't have to take the financial risk they do. But, what I've discovered is that what makes them money frequently makes me happy. It improves my quality of life. And I'm more interested in my quality of life than worrying about whether someone made money improving my quality of life. And I vote accordingly.

kevinpate
01-03-2014, 12:38 PM
Ah, the scent of scorched earth ... smells like brimstone.

Pete
01-03-2014, 12:49 PM
Yeah, that's that "it's not fair that the rich are rich" attitude that seems so pervasive right now. Every building that is built, every piece of land that is sold, every park that is built, every statue that's erected makes money for someone - but not me. I haven't made a dime off a single MAPS project, nor will I. I don't have the money or the talent to be a developer, or contractor or whatever. I also don't have to take the financial risk they do. But, what I've discovered is that what makes them money frequently makes me happy. It improves my quality of life. And I'm more interested in my quality of life than worrying about whether someone made money improving my quality of life. And I vote accordingly.

It's really the way capitalism works, however it does get more complicated when there are billions in tax-payer money at work.

I'm all for developers making money but when there so much public investment in a concentrated area, there should be some public involvement in what is developed.

I don't see many people complaining about people getting rich on property outside of downtown.


As has been discussed so many times, downtown is the one area that belongs to all citizens and therefore it's a unique animal.

trousers
01-03-2014, 12:51 PM
Yeah, that's that "it's not fair that the rich are rich" attitude that seems so pervasive right now. Every building that is built, every piece of land that is sold, every park that is built, every statue that's erected makes money for someone - but not me.
Really? You do realize that there is a middle ground right?
I'm referring to people that have supported every MAPS project. People that want the downtown park, a modern transit system. But something about this convention center doesn't sit right.
I for one am not willing to let this one issue derail the whole thing but like I said a lot of I know are really starting to second guess the whole thing.

Pete
01-03-2014, 12:58 PM
I've never been happy with the way this whole convention center thing has transpired; to not being open about the study prior to the vote, to it being moved up in the timeline, to using a selection process that promised the best site for the CC and not what was best for OKC overall. And there are still a bunch of unanswered questions about what could be a very expensive hotel that will likely need substantial public support.

It's really too bad that Shadid has alienated himself to the point that he can't effectively address these issues -- because they do need addressing.

He could have also carried the torch for addressing the issues with the planning department, the Project 180 planning and budget and several other key areas that need to be put under a bright light.

Unfortunately, he's turned into a bit of a pariah and even when he is right and/or people may agree with his message, there is little trust.

David
01-03-2014, 01:01 PM
Really? You do realize that there is a middle ground right?
I'm referring to people that have supported every MAPS project. People that want the downtown park, a modern transit system. But something about this convention center doesn't sit right.
I for one am not willing to let this one issue derail the whole thing but like I said a lot of I know are really starting to second guess the whole thing.

So, is there any actual proof that building and operating the convention center is going to line the pockets of the big movers and shakers in the city? Seems like there would be some profit for whichever construction company builds it, but a lot of the money that goes that direction would just be paying wages.

Someone help me out here, because I just don't see the monetary benefit for Larry Nichols, to pick a not-completely-random example.

trousers
01-03-2014, 01:03 PM
You're asking if I have proof of what some people that I know perceive?

No.

David
01-03-2014, 01:05 PM
You're asking if I have proof of what some people that I know perceive?

No.

Well, next time you talk to the people you know, ask them.

trousers
01-03-2014, 01:09 PM
I really doubt that they have any documentation.

But they don't need any to vote, only their perceptions.

shawnw
01-03-2014, 01:11 PM
Let's say he is successful in getting the CC yanked (and/or part or all of MAPS3). How do we then have confidence, as voters, to ever vote for anything like that again, without fearing it might get repealed by a future vote/law suit?

SoonerDave
01-03-2014, 01:14 PM
So, is there any actual proof that building and operating the convention center is going to line the pockets of the big movers and shakers in the city? Seems like there would be some profit for whichever construction company builds it, but a lot of the money that goes that direction would just be paying wages.

Someone help me out here, because I just don't see the monetary benefit for Larry Nichols, to pick a not-completely-random example.

I'm not naive enough to believe every aspect of every MAPS project is purely altruistic, and the CC is certainly no exception - and there's really little doubt that the public polling done prior to MAPS3 showed that a proposal for only a CC would not have passed. And I also remember all too keenly a friend of mine, who was driving me through downtown one day (WAAAAAAY before any of this became MAPS3, mind you), pointed to some land and told me "that's where the new convention center is going to be, " and that some folks had been advised to buy some what was otherwise unattractive property in that area....and guess what....that's exactly where its going to be built. So its hard not to scratch your chin and go, "hmmm...." at that.

That said, if we're going to build a CC, we need to do it right, so we've got to figure out the right way to get it done.

Pete
01-03-2014, 01:15 PM
I don't think the CC should be yanked but there is a conversation that should be had about this process, because it's made more that a few people uncomfortable.

And if want future MAPS projects to pass, I think the issues need to be addressed.

SoonerDave
01-03-2014, 01:19 PM
I've never been happy with the way this whole convention center thing has transpired; to not being open about the study prior to the vote, to it being moved up in the timeline, to using a selection process that promised the best site for the CC and not what was best for OKC overall. And there are still a bunch of unanswered questions about what could be a very expensive hotel that will likely need substantial public support.

It's really too bad that Shadid has alienated himself to the point that he can't effectively address these issues -- because they do need addressing.

He could have also carried the torch for addressing the issues with the planning department, the Project 180 planning and budget and several other key areas that need to be put under a bright light.

Unfortunately, he's turned into a bit of a pariah and even when he is right and/or people may agree with his message, there is little trust.

Great, great point, Pete - and that's the incredibly frustrating thing about all this as it relates to Shadid's campaign/candidacy. Why on earth he (Shadid) had to adopt the scorched earth policy escapes me. A constructive discussion about MAPS3 transparency would have been useful in lots of ways - but now any such notion is inherently tied to Shadid in such a way that it would be nearly impossible for it to gain any traction. Further demonstration of how corrosive a candidacy like his can be in ways one doesn't even realize.

Pete
01-03-2014, 01:20 PM
I'm not naive enough to believe every aspect of every MAPS project is purely altruistic, and the CC is certainly no exception - and there's really little doubt that the public polling done prior to MAPS3 showed that a proposal for only a CC would not have passed. And I also remember all too keenly a friend of mine, who was driving me through downtown one day (WAAAAAAY before any of this became MAPS3, mind you), pointed to some land and told me "that's where the new convention center is going to be, " and that some folks had been advised to buy some what was otherwise unattractive property in that area....and guess what....that's exactly where its going to be built. So its hard not to scratch your chin and go, "hmmm...." at that.

That said, if we're going to build a CC, we need to do it right, so we've got to figure out the right way to get it done.

One of the things that has added to the feeling of heavy-handedness in dealing with this project is the overwhelming influence of Larry Nichols.

This is his baby and everyone knows that. He's been heard saying it's his biggest priority.

Considering the MAPS committees were supposed to be citizen-driven, his huge and disproportionate influence doesn't seem right, regardless of the pureness of his intentions.

OKCisOK4me
01-03-2014, 01:23 PM
The convention center is more important, in my opinion, than the streetcar. As I said in the other thread, the Cox Center, today, is an appropriate convention center/arena for a city the size of Little Rock or Wichita. Does anybody seriously think the Cox Center will suffice for OKC in 20 years if population growth remains steady? What if the Peake had never been built and the Cox Arena was all that OKC had? It's incredibly shortsighted to attempt to derail this convention center. OKC will never get big name conventions - the kind of thing bring major dollars into the city and huge exposure to businesses and tourists - without this new convention center.

Where in my statement did you see me say that the convention center wasn't important? Hold yer horses there ol' bchris, lol.