View Full Version : We Have a Race for Governor



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soonerguru
12-18-2013, 01:20 AM
Joe Dorman, who has been working for years to get storm shelters in schools, has announced his exploratory run for Governor as a Democrat against Mary Fallin.

On paper, this looks like an uphill battle, but he is well positioned for this race: The people of Oklahoma wildly support his storm shelter issue, and Republican intransigence on this matter is well known. IMO he is the best possible candidate to run against Mary, who will have to defend herself not only on this common-sense issue, but also on the wackjob Janet Barresi, who is a probable loser against Freda Deskin and a major political liability.

Win or lose, Dorman will make this a race and will remind Oklahomans of the disaster of having 100% Republican governance. Here's hoping his "exploration" is affirmative and he moves forward, because Oklahomans deserve a choice.

Rep. Joe Dorman to explore run for governor | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2013/12/17/rep-joe-dorman-to-explore-run-for-governor/)

Jeepnokc
12-18-2013, 07:15 AM
Joe is a great guy and would be great for Oklahoma. As a State Rep, he spends a lot of time out with the citizens and has been very accessible. Look forward to hearing more on the issues.

BoulderSooner
12-18-2013, 07:20 AM
The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue and this guy has very very little chance to win the governorship

And "disaster". Not so much

Midtowner
12-18-2013, 07:57 AM
I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

LakeEffect
12-18-2013, 08:30 AM
The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue...

They would?

tomokc
12-18-2013, 08:56 AM
I'd like to see storm shelters in schools, but the path to that reality goes through the bureaucracies of state government and education, is fraught with emotional arguments from the parents of children living and deceased, doesn't specifically address how existing schools would phase in shelter construction, and at half a billion dollars, will attract every shady contractor in this part of the country. But those questions come way down the road. The three immediate questions are:

1. Where does the money come from?
2. What is the source of repayment?
3. What is the cost of maintaining these shelters?

Nick
12-18-2013, 09:58 AM
The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue and this guy has very very little chance to win the governorship

And "disaster". Not so much

Per usual, your profound insight and thoughtful commentary is thoroughly appreciated.

Bunty
12-18-2013, 10:04 AM
The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue and this guy has very very little chance to win the governorship

And "disaster". Not so much

You mean if Oklahomans feel that storm shelters are really a must for their school children, they will go to vote yes on a local bond issue to build them, just like they have to do when it's decided it's time to vote on replacing an old school with a new one?

onthestrip
12-18-2013, 10:17 AM
First, Im really glad an notable Dem might put their hat in the ring. Sure he has a very uphill battle but I think he can hammer Fallin on a number of issues such as poor edu funding, state employee pay, justice reform inaction, and non expansion of medicaid. This is a couple hundred thousand people that Dorman could attract as voters.


I'd like to see storm shelters in schools, but the path to that reality goes through the bureaucracies of state government and education, is fraught with emotional arguments from the parents of children living and deceased, doesn't specifically address how existing schools would phase in shelter construction, and at half a billion dollars, will attract every shady contractor in this part of the country. But those questions come way down the road. The three immediate questions are:

1. Where does the money come from?
2. What is the source of repayment?
3. What is the cost of maintaining these shelters?

Regarding storm shelters...while it is a noble cause by Dorman, I think this is an issue best left locally. Let school districts, cities, counties or whatever decide on the need for shelters. That said, I have no idea whether it would pass or not in a statewide vote. And I wonder if spending $500million on actual education improvements wouldnt save more lives in the end..?

jdross1982
12-18-2013, 10:29 AM
I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

Midtowner - "I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs."

Can you please explain to me how teachers dont like to be held accountable for their jobs?

Teachers for the most part want to be held accountable, they want to have performance raises and bonuses for excelling in the classroom. What teachers dont want is for a grade system that is not an accurate assessment of the jobs they are doing. Like it or not, Oklahoma has a wide diversity of students throughout the state and they have different backgrounds. There are teachers in OKCPS for example that have students who their familes just moved from Mexico and the child does not speak any english. These students if they do know some english, maybe only know a few letters in the alphabet. Yet these same students are judged the same as those who come from afluent backgrounds, who can afford tutors, who have two parents in the home at night to help them with their studies and make sure they are done.
Teachers want to be judged and held accountable by a system that acknowleges where a student is at the first of the year and compared to where they are at the end of the year. Instead, the system judges based on every student regardless of their background and says a 1st grader should be at 7 (1-10 scale) regardless if that student was a 1-2 to begin the year.

The complaint towards Janet Barresi is that she is a former dentist who has had no educational background and who put her kids through private school and yet she has chosen to demonize public schools across the state instead of reaching out to anyone in the educational system to come up with a plan that everyone can agree upon.

warreng88
12-18-2013, 10:47 AM
Finally the Red Dirt Report stopped humping Ed Shadid's leg enough to talk about something else:

In exploring the idea of running for governor, Dorman would wage a campaign that focuses on all Oklahomans | Red Dirt Report (http://www.reddirtreport.com/red-dirt-politics/exploring-idea-running-governor-dorman-would-wage-campaign-focuses-all-oklahomans)

SoonerDave
12-18-2013, 10:51 AM
They would?

Seems a safe presumption considering the group hired into get the petition filed couldn't even get enough signatures on the ballot to mandate a vote.

I hate this notion that seems to exist that implicitly believes businesses exist solely to be taxed to further other agendas. Translating the emotional devastation of lost children from last May into public policy and legislation without some degree of due diligence seems hardly a smart way to solve a problem. This initiative preys on emotions, not smart planning, for a certainly laudable objective, but we need to pursue that objective intelligently - not just "well, here's a tax, turn it back on, then sell some bonds. Poof!" It isn't that simple. There *has* to be fiscal sanity in the mix.

* Does the same kind of shelter plan work for every possible school?
* Can some existing schools be modified to incorporate shelters more cheaply than others by virtue of their age or design?
* Are some schools already slated for rebuild/replacement due to their age? If so, can tornado safety be incorporated into their design in new/creative ways? Have read about at least one school that was built somewhat into a "berm" that had natural tornado protection - and it was cheaper than a full "safe room" kindred structure.
* Are some schools in districts that can be consolidated into ones with newer facilities that already have safety features incorporated?
* Has any comprehensive study been done to assess the kinds of shelters that should be considered, their costs, and how to apply the various types to the various schools?

And here's another nugget - for all the millions we might be throwing at this, how many of those districts would rather have the same money in new textbooks, teacher salaries, repair funds, and supplies?

This is turning into the ultimate wife-beating question - if you dare suggest you oppose this particular proposal, you obviously hate children, which is ad-hominem at worst and unconstructive at best.

jerrywall
12-18-2013, 11:00 AM
And there's a cold question that everyone ignores, because others will paint you as evil and hating the children...

What percentage of Oklahoma children have been injured/killed due to lack of shelters in schools?

.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001%?

OKCretro
12-18-2013, 11:39 AM
I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

better than Jerri askins "i promise I am not as liberal as the president campaign" what a joke

LakeEffect
12-18-2013, 12:08 PM
Seems a safe presumption considering the group hired into get the petition filed couldn't even get enough signatures on the ballot to mandate a vote.

I hate this notion that seems to exist that implicitly believes businesses exist solely to be taxed to further other agendas. Translating the emotional devastation of lost children from last May into public policy and legislation without some degree of due diligence seems hardly a smart way to solve a problem. This initiative preys on emotions, not smart planning, for a certainly laudable objective, but we need to pursue that objective intelligently - not just "well, here's a tax, turn it back on, then sell some bonds. Poof!" It isn't that simple. There *has* to be fiscal sanity in the mix.

* Does the same kind of shelter plan work for every possible school?
* Can some existing schools be modified to incorporate shelters more cheaply than others by virtue of their age or design?
* Are some schools already slated for rebuild/replacement due to their age? If so, can tornado safety be incorporated into their design in new/creative ways? Have read about at least one school that was built somewhat into a "berm" that had natural tornado protection - and it was cheaper than a full "safe room" kindred structure.
* Are some schools in districts that can be consolidated into ones with newer facilities that already have safety features incorporated?
* Has any comprehensive study been done to assess the kinds of shelters that should be considered, their costs, and how to apply the various types to the various schools?

And here's another nugget - for all the millions we might be throwing at this, how many of those districts would rather have the same money in new textbooks, teacher salaries, repair funds, and supplies?

This is turning into the ultimate wife-beating question - if you dare suggest you oppose this particular proposal, you obviously hate children, which is ad-hominem at worst and unconstructive at best.

I think people would see through it as well, but I'm sick of people just stating things as fact. Builder needs to back up his statements.

gjl
12-18-2013, 02:09 PM
Is the problem with poor performance in schools in Oklahoma really because of under funding?

SoonerDave
12-18-2013, 02:25 PM
Midtowner - "I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs."

Can you please explain to me how teachers dont like to be held accountable for their jobs?

Teachers for the most part want to be held accountable, they want to have performance raises and bonuses for excelling in the classroom. What teachers dont want is for a grade system that is not an accurate assessment of the jobs they are doing. Like it or not, Oklahoma has a wide diversity of students throughout the state and they have different backgrounds. There are teachers in OKCPS for example that have students who their familes just moved from Mexico and the child does not speak any english. These students if they do know some english, maybe only know a few letters in the alphabet. Yet these same students are judged the same as those who come from afluent backgrounds, who can afford tutors, who have two parents in the home at night to help them with their studies and make sure they are done.
Teachers want to be judged and held accountable by a system that acknowleges where a student is at the first of the year and compared to where they are at the end of the year. Instead, the system judges based on every student regardless of their background and says a 1st grader should be at 7 (1-10 scale) regardless if that student was a 1-2 to begin the year.

The complaint towards Janet Barresi is that she is a former dentist who has had no educational background and who put her kids through private school and yet she has chosen to demonize public schools across the state instead of reaching out to anyone in the educational system to come up with a plan that everyone can agree upon.

But here's my answer - when do taxpayers get to say "yeah, a student at a given age ought to perform at a given level?" When are taxpayers allowed to ask that question? If a student goes from a 1 to a 2, we're saying that's adequate? I will agree that blaming the teacher solely for not "hitting the 7" doesn't make sense, because that's the fault of the system but surely neither her nor her predecessor has really done anything to gut the infrastructure of public education and reinvent it such that the teachers are allowed to do the teaching. Our school systems need to get simpler, not more laden with PhD sophistry that doesn't appear to be serving our kids very well.

Perhaps Barresi isn't the answer - and I know the education lobby is aiming every possible nuclear device at her they can for their unbridled, writhing hatred of her - but since when did the powers that be decide that dentists were suddenly stupid? I hear this little aphorism all the time, "She's a dentist," as if that implies mouth-breathing, drooling moron,... to say nothing of the fact I'm delighted that we have someone in power that is outside the "conventional wisdom" of our oh-so-learned Education Establishment brethren that have had no small part in creating this mess right now. I had hoped she would aggressively push mandatory consolidation, but hasn't, and do something to fight the entrenched layers of bureaucracy, but she hasn't, but I sure don't want another stinking Sandy Garrett clone back in office.

onthestrip
12-18-2013, 02:31 PM
better than Jerri askins "i promise I am not as liberal as the president campaign" what a joke

Huh? Either way, I sure wish we would have got a chance to see Jari Askins in action. We most likely have a couple hundred thousand extra people with affordable health insurance and maybe we wouldnt be giving away money to school testing companies and private prison groups.


Is the problem with poor performance in schools in Oklahoma really because of under funding?

Im sure its not helping. Take a look around the country and Im guessing the states that put more money towards edu are probably outperforming the others. And whats that saying, you get what you pay for? There are a host of issues why we perform terribly but money certainly is playing a huge factor.

jerrywall
12-18-2013, 02:37 PM
That's a big thing to me. A lot of folks seem to be operating under some notion/lie that the education in Oklahoma was so great or on a great path during the past decades of Democratic control. 2 years into office people are upset that someone hasn't undone 20+ years of stagnation and failure? Especially considering the constant back fighting and sabotage that has happened by folks who are in place and entrenched thanks to those 20 years of failure.

And people love the "Dentist" thing, but ignore that Barressi has a degree in Education. She worked with special needs children in the public schools, and ran a summer clinic for them. Let's not even talk about her work establishing Independence Middle School (yeah, total failure there, huh?).

BoulderSooner
12-18-2013, 02:39 PM
Huh? Either way, I sure wish we would have got a chance to see Jari Askins in action. We most likely have a couple hundred thousand extra people with affordable health insurance and maybe we wouldnt be giving away money to school testing companies and private prison groups.



Im sure its not helping. Take a look around the country and Im guessing the states that put more money towards edu are probably outperforming the others. And whats that saying, you get what you pay for? There are a host of issues why we perform terribly but money certainly is playing a huge factor.

More future unfunded liabilities No thanks

SoonerDave
12-18-2013, 02:49 PM
Huh? Either way, I sure wish we would have got a chance to see Jari Askins in action. We most likely have a couple hundred thousand extra people with affordable health insurance and maybe we wouldnt be giving away money to school testing companies and private prison groups.

Im sure its not helping. Take a look around the country and Im guessing the states that put more money towards edu are probably outperforming the others. And whats that saying, you get what you pay for? There are a host of issues why we perform terribly but money certainly is playing a huge factor.[/QUOTE]

In fact, a reply to a similar discussion in a different thread pointed out an example of just the opposite - of two Wisconsin districts very similar in size, composition, income, etc, but one spent something on the order of 59% of its total budget on administrative/overhead, and had results statistically the same as the other that spent only 51% on admin/overhead.

Throwing money at education won't fix it. Throwing money hasn't fixed it in, what, five decades? Gutting the system, getting rid of the bureaucracies and bureaucrats that suck up the money and issue the fiats and re-empowering the teachers is what's required. But no one will ever do that. We get folks like you who say "just keep throwing money at it, and eventually it will get better." And constantly rationalize the practice by the quivering-voice mantra of, "it's for the children." People who want to throw money at the education system don't want to fix it. They want the status quo, because the status quo will always return the bad results allowing the same tired rhetoric of "throw more money at it." Why would anyone who benefits from the system ever be motivated to fix it, when its inherent system is a self-perpetuating waste machine?

Fixing education is the hard work no one wants to tackle. Teachers and the students in their charge are the ones that pay the price for our educational system.

adaniel
12-18-2013, 03:00 PM
I let results speak for themselves when it comes to education in this state.

CNBC Best States for Business 2009 OK Education rank: 46 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/31392646)

CNBC Best States for Business 2013 OK Education rank: 48 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100824779)

With the caveat this is a pretty simplistic view, OK has started from a low position and actually regressed. It really doesn't matter in regards to the governor's race, as Barriesi is likely to get bounced in the GOP primary. Her challenger Joy Hofmeister is already significantly outraising her. (http://newsok.com/challenger-for-oklahoma-schools-superintendent-position-outraises-opponent-in-campaign-funds/article/3900152) Most people I know who are for Barresi (and there aren't a lot) are usually voicing their support for a defensive crouch, which is never good.

Now as far as Dorman is concerned, fantastic guy who likely does not stand a chance. But Fallin cannot just cakewalk her way into reelection, IMO its bad for democracy. She is the type of candidate who would not win if this state was more politically balanced. Whereas people like TW Shannon have their group of dedicated fanboys, I can't really say Fallin has a dedicated base. If I am not mistaken, in 2010 with a dramatic state and national GOP victory she actually under performed compared to most OK Republican candidates. Alas, I think she will pull off reelection but stranger things have happened.

Urbanized
12-18-2013, 03:00 PM
I've known Joe for a number of years. He's pretty much a centrist, and he's good people. That said, he definitely has an uphill battle in this state.

Midtowner
12-18-2013, 03:01 PM
Can you please explain to me how teachers dont like to be held accountable for their jobs?

Teachers for the most part want to be held accountable, they want to have performance raises and bonuses for excelling in the classroom. What teachers dont want is for a grade system that is not an accurate assessment of the jobs they are doing. Like it or not, Oklahoma has a wide diversity of students throughout the state and they have different backgrounds.

You do realize that the grading system is a constant work in progress. That said, by "wide diversity of students," are you suggesting that some races do not learn as well as others? Or that poor children are incapable of mastering things middle class kids can do? That's demonstrably false.


There are teachers in OKCPS for example that have students who their familes just moved from Mexico and the child does not speak any english. These students if they do know some english, maybe only know a few letters in the alphabet. Yet these same students are judged the same as those who come from afluent backgrounds, who can afford tutors, who have two parents in the home at night to help them with their studies and make sure they are done.

And they should be judged by exactly the same standards. Otherwise, you are writing them off as unteachable because of surmountable challenges. Your example isn't an example, it's an excuse--and a crappy one.


Teachers want to be judged and held accountable by a system that acknowleges where a student is at the first of the year and compared to where they are at the end of the year. Instead, the system judges based on every student regardless of their background and says a 1st grader should be at 7 (1-10 scale) regardless if that student was a 1-2 to begin the year.

What teachers want is a system where we can continue to fail children solely because they have been failed in the past. That's unacceptable. The Dept. of Education has already mandated that children must be able to read before being promoted out of the 3rd grade. That's just one of many things and it's going to pay off huge.


The complaint towards Janet Barresi is that she is a former dentist who has had no educational background and who put her kids through private school and yet she has chosen to demonize public schools across the state instead of reaching out to anyone in the educational system to come up with a plan that everyone can agree upon.

And that's the single dumbest complaint anyone could have about her, mostly because it tells me you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

1) Her education background. Firstly, how is this even a thing? The State Superintendent of Schools sets policy for our 500+ school districts and oversees our whole educational system. The job is not remotely comparable to a district superintendent. They do totally different things. You're talking about CEO versus regional manager sorts of differences. Nothing in their job description is similar, so how is it you maintain that before being CEO of our school system for the entire state that being superintendent for a school district is valuable experience? The fact is that if you want experience, there is only one candidate on the ticket with any experience as the State Department of Education's CEO.

That's all well and good, but let me turn it up a notch.

She actually did have a ton of experience before her election. Before her election, she founded Independence Charter school and Belle Isle Enterprise. Here is an article going all the way back to 1998 discussing some of her involvement in Belle Isle Enterprise. Google is your friend. Facts matter.

School Board Holds Tight Rein Enterprise Schools Facing Issues | News OK (http://newsok.com/school-board-holds-tight-rein-enterprise-schools-facing-issues/article/2620902)

Further, she went on and founded Harding Charter Preparatory High School... you know, that school which admits students by lottery (not by selection as many seem to think for whatever reason), requires them to carry 100% AP course loads, has outstanding fine arts programs and I believe had the 2nd highest grade in the state (the first was the Elementary school at Carlton's Landing [a resort town at Lake Eufaula] with an enrollment of 12). And for many years, she chaired the boards or was on the boards of all of those schools. Charter schools are basically districts unto themselves, so in fact, she has a huge amount of experience with schools.

2) Her kids went to private school. Funny... I graduated from the same school they did and don't remember the tuition bill. At any rate, click on the link. That's one of her twin boys who played football for Edmond North and played a bit at OU. His twin brother played for Mike Stoops at Arizona.

Ben Barresi - College Football (http://oklahoma.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?Player=51150)

Finally, I want to dispel this idiotic notion that we need to just abandon some kids because they are incapable of learning. I want you to direct your attention to U.S. Grant High School in Oklahoma City. Here's a place which shows that not only do we have a problem of bad teachers in our system, but it's also a money and resources thing. U.S. Grant was awarded a $5MM grant over 5 years. Here's the actual grant application (it's pretty detailed)

http://ok.gov/sde/sites/ok.gov.sde/files/SIG-USGrantHSApp.pdf

In a nutshell, with those funds and with a plan, the entire old staff was laid off and asked to reapply for their jobs and all of the positions, including principal were opened up. With the new staff hired, intensive cultural classes and language classes were provided for the educators during the Summer (they were of course paid for their time). With language resources, a strong ESL (English as a Second Language) program and a new attitude where they now directly address the challenges these students came with, U.S. Grant has gone from what would have been an F three years ago to a strong B+ (89).

So when I hear these excuses of why kids can't be educated, it's bullcrap. All we have to do is come up with the cash and then really start holding these teachers responsible for their failures. There is no reason (except money) that this model can't be replicated elsewhere.

jerrywall
12-18-2013, 03:04 PM
I let results speak for themselves when it comes to education in this state.

CNBC Best States for Business 2009 OK Education rank: 46 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/31392646)

CNBC Best States for Business 2013 OK Education rank: 48 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100824779)

With the caveat this is a pretty simplistic view, OK has started from a low position and actually regressed. It really doesn't matter in regards to the governor's race, as Barriesi is likely to get bounced in the GOP primary. Her challenger Joy Hofmeister is already significantly outraising her. (http://newsok.com/challenger-for-oklahoma-schools-superintendent-position-outraises-opponent-in-campaign-funds/article/3900152)


These aren't really results though... they're rankings, which is something totally different. Additionally, these rankings are based on how often "Education" is mentioned in marketing materials. Nothing else. Not on metrics, results, nor facts. Just words of flyers. Really?

onthestrip
12-18-2013, 03:08 PM
More future unfunded liabilities No thanks

So you are fine with paying higher hospital/insurance costs to make up for the emergency room visits by the poor? And since medicaid expansion is primarily paid for by the feds, Ill let them worry about money issues. As it is right now, Oklahoma has a incredible amount of fed money waiting to help the uninsured, which would create a better and healthier workforce, help lower hospital costs and prevent rural ones from closing, and would be a gigantic stimulus to our state. And besides, I pay federal taxes, I want some of that to come back to our state rather than help another states health issues.




Throwing money at education won't fix it. Throwing money hasn't fixed it in, what, five decades? Gutting the system, getting rid of the bureaucracies and bureaucrats that suck up the money and issue the fiats and re-empowering the teachers is what's required. But no one will ever do that. We get folks like you who say "just keep throwing money at it, and eventually it will get better." And constantly rationalize the practice by the quivering-voice mantra of, "it's for the children." People who want to throw money at the education system don't want to fix it. They want the status quo, because the status quo will always return the bad results allowing the same tired rhetoric of "throw more money at it." Why would anyone who benefits from the system ever be motivated to fix it, when its inherent system is a self-perpetuating waste machine?

Fixing education is the hard work no one wants to tackle. Teachers and the students in their charge are the ones that pay the price for our educational system.

Has Oklahoma ever been guilty at throwing money at education. As far as I can remember we have always provided some of the lowest amounts to edu. We keep talking about cutting costs and inefficiencies in edu, but if you want to free up more money for the classroom look no further than the ridiculous amount of money being thrown at locking people up. Even our red state brethren Texas is smart enough to enact some justice reform that has saved millions and its only a couple years old. We would have no problem freeing up hundreds of millions that could go to education if we stopped locking up nonviolent criminals and throwing money at the private prison companies.

Midtowner
12-18-2013, 03:20 PM
Has Oklahoma ever been guilty at throwing money at education.

Actually, just a few posts ago, I showed how throwing money at U.S. Grant [yes, they had a good plan on what to do with it] actually worked.

Edgar
12-18-2013, 03:29 PM
I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

It was quite apparent early on that the dentist has a disdain for the people she is supposed to be leading and regards teachers unions as an evil empire. Nothing original with her. The "reform" is from the alec jeb bush chamber playbook to discredit public schools and promote their greedy voucher scheme, and if you like what letting the sharks in the tank did for health care in America, you'll love it when the profiteers get their mitts on the ed pie. The dentist is just a patsy.

Midtowner
12-18-2013, 03:33 PM
It was quite apparent early on that the dentist has a disdain for the people she is supposed to be leading and regards teachers unions as an evil empire. Nothing original with her. The "reform" is from the alec jeb bush chamber playbook to discredit public schools and promote their greedy voucher scheme, and if you like what letting the sharks in the tank did for health care in America, you'll love it when the profiteers get their mitts on the ed pie. The dentist is just a patsy.

Strange that none of the schools she founded were part of a voucher scheme, and in ever case outperformed their traditional public school counterparts. That said, I don't think there's any disdain coming from the Super's office directed at unions. Unions, educators and folks in general have had this insane hostility towards her from the get go. My wife teaches at one of the schools founded by Barresi and they do just fine. Not having tenure has kind of been great. If a teacher is bad at their job, their contract simply doesn't get renewed. No hearings or any of that nonsense are required.

Garin
12-18-2013, 03:54 PM
ive

soonerguru
12-18-2013, 09:47 PM
I've known Joe for a number of years. He's pretty much a centrist, and he's good people. That said, he definitely has an uphill battle in this state.

That's OK. He can fight to win but even if he comes up short, he will have done us a service.

Plutonic Panda
12-18-2013, 11:38 PM
And there's a cold question that everyone ignores, because others will paint you as evil and hating the children...

What percentage of Oklahoma children have been injured/killed due to lack of shelters in schools?

.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001%?If one of your children had died in a tornado due to a lack of shelter in a school, you'd likely look at that question differently.

jerrywall
12-18-2013, 11:44 PM
If one of your children had died in a tornado due to a lack of shelter in a school, you'd likely look at that question differently.

Certainly, and it's heart wrenching. But the realistic view of any threat is to consider both the potential of the threat and the cost to protect from it.

If one of your children died in a school due to a plane crashing into it, you'd be supportive of an air defense system being installed on the roofs of every school. Doesn't mean it's practical.

More kids have drowned in Oklahoma than have been killed by tornadoes, so maybe arks should be mandatory in all classrooms?

Now, don't take me wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything. In fact, I'm 100% in support of requirements for new school construction including sufficient shelters and looking at building what we can. It's just that the realities of economy require that these actuarial questions be asked.

MWCGuy
12-19-2013, 01:07 AM
I don't think throwing millions of dollars at building storm shelters is the answer for protecting Oklahoma's Children during severe weather. We all know how this scheme will turn out some districts will get the best shelters for the money while others get taken by fly by night companies and shoddy workmanship that is not discovered until years after the shelter is built. You also have the possibility of district officials building cheap and pocketing the money.

What we need to look at is the fact that single story, brick and mortar, flat roof school houses have to be phased out in this state. Moore Public Schools has 23 of these type elementary schools strung out around the district. Most of them are less than a mile from one another. Imagine how much safer if these schools were cut down to 12 or 6 four to five story(including basement/concourse level) facilities on the same size footprint as the average elementary school in Moore. If a tornado hit the old Central High School in Downtown OKC or Capitol Hill High School there is a pretty good chance the schools would survive structurally and the kids inside would as well with minor injuries from flying debris.

BBatesokc
12-19-2013, 05:40 AM
Joe Dorman, who has been working for years to get storm shelters in schools, has announced his exploratory run for Governor as a Democrat against Mary Fallin.

On paper, this looks like an uphill battle, but he is well positioned for this race: The people of Oklahoma wildly support his storm shelter issue, and Republican intransigence on this matter is well known. IMO he is the best possible candidate to run against Mary, who will have to defend herself not only on this common-sense issue, but also on the wackjob Janet Barresi, who is a probable loser against Freda Deskin and a major political liability.

Win or lose, Dorman will make this a race and will remind Oklahomans of the disaster of having 100% Republican governance. Here's hoping his "exploration" is affirmative and he moves forward, because Oklahomans deserve a choice.

Rep. Joe Dorman to explore run for governor | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2013/12/17/rep-joe-dorman-to-explore-run-for-governor/)

Definitely would love to see Fallin gone - but your post reads a bit pie in the sky and unrealistic to me. IMO he certainly isn't the 'best possible candidate' - mainly because he's going to get so few votes (comparably). I don't know enough about him beyond that opinion. May be a great guy with some great ideas - but rarely does that alone make for a victory. I'd like to see a candidate with more going for them (the whole package with financing and big backing). If this was a little local race I'd say he's got a good chance - Governor? Don't see that happening. At least not from this early on perspective.

SoonerDave
12-19-2013, 08:44 AM
Actually, just a few posts ago, I showed how throwing money at U.S. Grant [yes, they had a good plan on what to do with it] actually worked.

But having a sound plan that explains how funding is going to be used is precisely not "throwing money" at the problem. That's what perpetually irks me about the crowd that does nothing but spew "we don't fund education" rhetoric - give me a plan. How are we cutting waste? How are we cutting bureaucracy? How are we not doing all the things in the past that we already know don't work? We have a supplies and resources shortage problem. We have a teacher pay and, in some cases, performance problem. I never hear a, "we don't have enough bureaucrats" problem. When I hear "we don't fund education," I rarely if ever hear "this is how we solve these other problems with that money. We do hear a "send us money and get out of our way" problem from the bureaucratically controlled veneer of education. It sure sounds to me like Midtowner has experience or knowledge of one of the success stories, but the problem is most anyone following this thread would acknowledge that story is an outlier; it's an exception. Why does that have to be the case?

I do not pretend that there's a single magic bullet to "fix" education. But getting rid of the currently entrenched, smoke-filled-room, self-protecting middle-tier bureaucracy is a vital component to simultaneously eliminating the status quo and fostering the out-of-the-box solutions similar to that Midtowner has described that at least give us a start to fixing the myriad problems of education, even including societal issues that a school teacher in a six-hour classroom can't begin to fix.

Midtowner
12-19-2013, 08:49 AM
But having a sound plan that explains how funding is going to be used is precisely not "throwing money" at the problem. That's what perpetually irks me about the crowd that does nothing but spew "we don't fund education" rhetoric - give me a plan. How are we cutting waste? How are we cutting bureaucracy? How are we not doing all the things in the past that we already know don't work? We have a supplies and resources shortage problem. We have a teacher pay and, in some cases, performance problem. I never hear a, "we don't have enough bureaucrats" problem. When I hear "we don't fund education," I rarely if ever hear "this is how we solve these other problems with that money. We do hear a "send us money and get out of our way" problem from the bureaucratically controlled veneer of education. It sure sounds to me like Midtowner has experience or knowledge of one of the success stories, but the problem is most anyone following this thread would acknowledge that story is an outlier; it's an exception. Why does that have to be the case?

I do not pretend that there's a single magic bullet to "fix" education. But getting rid of the currently entrenched, smoke-filled-room, self-protecting middle-tier bureaucracy is a vital component to simultaneously eliminating the status quo and fostering the out-of-the-box solutions similar to that Midtowner has described that at least give us a start to fixing the myriad problems of education, even including societal issues that a school teacher in a six-hour classroom can't begin to fix.

I provided you to a link with a 30-something page plan on how they planned to use $5MM to fix that site and the fact is they got the money, spent it and the plan worked. There is no reason except money that such a plan can't be executed elsewhere. The problem with U.S. Grant was demonstrably in this case, three things, a lack of a plan to fix things (fixed), a lack of a competent faculty and administration (fixed by the plan) and a lack of money to fund any plan (fixed by a federal grant).

Now that teachers can be fired for incompetence and insubordination (we actually had to pass a new law to get that) bad teachers and administrators can be replaced, but are not replaced nearly often enough.

No there's no magic bullet, but the fact is the schools need access to resources to fix whatever problems they have. Oklahoma kids are not born dumber than Massachusetts kids, but out massively outgunned education department leaves them dumber on the whole.

When the problem is money, the solution is money.

SoonerDave
12-19-2013, 08:51 AM
I provided you to a link with a 30-something page plan on how they planned to use $5MM to fix that site and the fact is they got the money, spent it and the plan worked. There is no reason except money that such a plan can't be executed elsewhere. The problem with U.S. Grant was demonstrably in this case, three things, a lack of a plan to fix things (fixed), a lack of a competent faculty and administration (fixed by the plan) and a lack of money to fund any plan (fixed by a federal grant).

Now that teachers can be fired for incompetence and insubordination (we actually had to pass a new law to get that) bad teachers and administrators can be replaced, but are not replaced nearly often enough.

No there's no magic bullet, but the fact is the schools need access to resources to fix whatever problems they have. Oklahoma kids are not born dumber than Massachusetts kids, but out massively outgunned education department leaves them dumber on the whole.

When the problem is money, the solution is money.

Uhm, Mid, sounds like you're angry with me - I'm trying to agree with you! Put together a solid plan, explain why and how the funding is needed and will be used, and execute the plan. I have no problem with that! ok? Money tossed into the current system to repeat prior mistakes is no solution to anything.

Midtowner
12-19-2013, 09:08 AM
Taking the U.S. Grant experience, they needed money for ESL classes and teachers. They needed money to educate their own teachers in cultural and language competencies. They needed money to pay tutors, they needed technology, they had to hire almost an entire new staff.

The reason right now why Western Heights cannot do exactly what Grant just did is because they don't have $5MM sitting around or even available.

And soon, we're going to be looking at technology and infrastructure problems because there's not enough money.

jdross1982
12-19-2013, 09:30 AM
Midtowner -

I am not saying poor/minorities/etc cannot be taught, not saying that at all. Just saying that everyone should "expect" each student to be at a "7" (just picking a number on the 1-10 scale) for a certain age group but to judge teachers by this very metric is not the correct way to go about fixing the problems. I am all for giving education more money and therefore raising taxes but only after the over head is brought to a minimum. All students should be taught the same and the expectations should be the same, but to grade teachers this way and paint every teacher with the same brush is a failed attempt to fix the problem. Several reasons for differences.
1) like it or not, a higher % of children living in poverty struggle with education not because of effort, not because of lack of understanding. It is because education does not fall at the feet of school teachers solely and is a 24/7/365 marathon that is aided by the teachers, parents, grandparents, siblings and the day care they attend. Everyone in these childrens lives have an impact on education and not trying to make an excuse but just stating facts. When there is a parent in the home,when the child gets home from school that is able to read to them, read with them, make sure homework is done and understood, and eating proper nutrition it enables the children to learn in a better environment than if those things are not available to them.

2) The education budget has been cut in Oklahoma which prevents teachers from being hired, or materials from being provided for them. Teachers get a $250.00 tax credit for materials they spend out of their own pockets each year, yet many teachers spend much much more than that and we know how much teachers get paid or dont get paid.

3) I am all for consolidation of school districts as the state has 520 total. This leads to multiple issues of having a superintendent who has less than 100 students in his district to ones that have 10's of thousands of students. Yes the pay varries between them but this leads to a lot of O/H. If schools were willing to combine districts especially in the rural towns that are close to one another (not give up their own schools - just consolidate them into one district) this would save those districst thousands each year that could be redirected into the classroom where the students need it. The same could be said for school districts in the urban setting and would result in greater savings.

4) Baressi has made it her mission to demonize teacher unions and all of their members (teachers). She has not acted as a CEO of a company (at least not one that is performing well) but as someone who doesn't care about the people she is trying to serve and has her own agenda that she is trying to push through.

5) Teachers are all for congress to come up with a way to pay teachers for performance as an increase to the pay they are receiving. I dont think teachers should be able to reach tenure status as quickly as most districts allow, but I do think there should be some level of tenure they can reach after X amount of experience. Whether tenure means the same going forward as it does today remains to be seen.

soonerguru
12-19-2013, 11:15 AM
Definitely would love to see Fallin gone - but your post reads a bit pie in the sky and unrealistic to me. IMO he certainly isn't the 'best possible candidate' - mainly because he's going to get so few votes (comparably). I don't know enough about him beyond that opinion. May be a great guy with some great ideas - but rarely does that alone make for a victory. I'd like to see a candidate with more going for them (the whole package with financing and big backing). If this was a little local race I'd say he's got a good chance - Governor? Don't see that happening. At least not from this early on perspective.

Pie in the sky? I never suggested he would win. My point is he has been going around the state leading the efforts on a very popular issue, gaining support and name ID. As for financial backing, I think donors will come out of the woodwork to support him because there is a lot of animus toward Fallin.

Did anyone see Brad Henry winning against Largent? Brad was no multimillionaire with huge name ID. I realize it was an open seat, not going against an incumbent, but I have no doubt Dorman can make this a race.

I spoke to a pollster recently and he reminded me that Fallin has never really been as popular as people think. She underperformed in 2010 in a year when anyone with an R next to their name could have won anything. The intangibles are different right now, and if Dorman runs a smart, aggressive campaign, he could pull off an upset. But whether or not he wins, he gives voice to these issues.

Do people in Oklahoma want to eliminate the income tax when our school funding is the worst in the US?

Do people in Oklahoma want to eliminate the income tax when we cannot find funding to pay corrections officials a living wage?

And then he has this storm shelter issue, which is the kind of thing a smart candidate can use.

That's why he's the best candidate right now.

BoulderSooner
12-19-2013, 12:28 PM
Pie in the sky? I never suggested he would win. My point is he has been going around the state leading the efforts on a very popular issue, gaining support and name ID. As for financial backing, I think donors will come out of the woodwork to support him because there is a lot of animus toward Fallin.

Did anyone see Brad Henry winning against Largent? Brad was no multimillionaire with huge name ID. I realize it was an open seat, not going against an incumbent, but I have no doubt Dorman can make this a race.

I spoke to a pollster recently and he reminded me that Fallin has never really been as popular as people think. She underperformed in 2010 in a year when anyone with an R next to their name could have won anything. The intangibles are different right now, and if Dorman runs a smart, aggressive campaign, he could pull off an upset. But whether or not he wins, he gives voice to these issues.

Do people in Oklahoma want to eliminate the income tax when our school funding is the worst in the US?

Do people in Oklahoma want to eliminate the income tax when we cannot find funding to pay corrections officials a living wage?

And then he has this storm shelter issue, which is the kind of thing a smart candidate can use.

That's why he's the best candidate right now.

The issue he is leading around the state is not that popular.

Yes we should eliminate the state income tax

soonerguru
12-19-2013, 01:03 PM
Well we wil soon find out, Won't we?

LakeEffect
12-19-2013, 01:25 PM
Yes we should eliminate the state income tax

And replace it with what? More fees? More sales tax?

Midtowner
12-19-2013, 01:29 PM
And replace it with what? More fees? More sales tax?

As long as we can have the poor shoulder the burden, why not? That's what Republicans want these days, right?

MustangGT
12-19-2013, 01:29 PM
Win or lose, Dorman will make this a race and will remind Oklahomans of the disaster of having 100% Republican governance. Here's hoping his "exploration" is affirmative and he moves forward, because Oklahomans deserve a choice. Rep. Joe Dorman to explore run for governor | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2013/12/17/rep-joe-dorman-to-explore-run-for-governor/)

100% Democratic rule is JUST AS BIG A DISASTER to informed/intelligent voters.

onthestrip
12-19-2013, 01:29 PM
Pie in the sky? I never suggested he would win. My point is he has been going around the state leading the efforts on a very popular issue, gaining support and name ID. As for financial backing, I think donors will come out of the woodwork to support him because there is a lot of animus toward Fallin.

Did anyone see Brad Henry winning against Largent? Brad was no multimillionaire with huge name ID. I realize it was an open seat, not going against an incumbent, but I have no doubt Dorman can make this a race.

I spoke to a pollster recently and he reminded me that Fallin has never really been as popular as people think. She underperformed in 2010 in a year when anyone with an R next to their name could have won anything. The intangibles are different right now, and if Dorman runs a smart, aggressive campaign, he could pull off an upset. But whether or not he wins, he gives voice to these issues.

Do people in Oklahoma want to eliminate the income tax when our school funding is the worst in the US?

Do people in Oklahoma want to eliminate the income tax when we cannot find funding to pay corrections officials a living wage?

And then he has this storm shelter issue, which is the kind of thing a smart candidate can use.

That's why he's the best candidate right now.

I think this is a very smart move by Dorman, that is if he can get the storm shelter thing on the ballot and if it is a popular issue to voters. He gets them to come out and vote on storm shelters while also hoping to get some of their votes for Gov since he is the face behind the shelter movement. Although I still think the shelter thing is best left as a local decision, Dorman will be getting my vote regardless


The issue he is leading around the state is not that popular.

Yes we should eliminate the state income tax

Cut taxes when revenues are down? What a genius plan...
Oklahoma Legislature is projected to have about $170.8 million less revenue available to appropriate | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-legislature-is-projected-to-have-about-170.8-million-less-revenue-available-to-appropriate/article/3915826)

Midtowner
12-19-2013, 01:32 PM
100% Democratic rule is JUST AS BIG A DISASTER to informed/intelligent voters.

Agreed. What we need is a slim enough majority on either side which instills a healthy fear in legislators that if they start working for the lobbyists instead of the people, they can and will be replaced.

MustangGT
12-19-2013, 01:33 PM
Agreed. What we need is a slim enough majority on either side which instills a healthy fear in legislators that if they start working for the lobbyists instead of the people, they can and will be replaced.

Here is something we can wholeheartedly agree on.

Plutonic Panda
12-19-2013, 02:00 PM
Certainly, and it's heart wrenching. But the realistic view of any threat is to consider both the potential of the threat and the cost to protect from it.

If one of your children died in a school due to a plane crashing into it, you'd be supportive of an air defense system being installed on the roofs of every school. Doesn't mean it's practical.

More kids have drowned in Oklahoma than have been killed by tornadoes, so maybe arks should be mandatory in all classrooms?

Now, don't take me wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything. In fact, I'm 100% in support of requirements for new school construction including sufficient shelters and looking at building what we can. It's just that the realities of economy require that these actuarial questions be asked.You make good points and I somewhat agree with you. I would support building storm shelters in all schools seeing as we are right in the heart of tornado alley.

I don't have kids either so it's not a big deal to me, but it would've been for those in that elementary school in Moore. Installing air defense systems and including arks in schools would make sense if we had seasons of plane crashes and severe floods, but we don't. We have tornado seasons. If we use your perspective, why should anyone anywhere waste money on tornado shelters? That is like saying that schools should spend no money upgrading their security in response to the recent school shootings because a very minuscule amount have died compared to the ones that haven't. Just my 2 cents on it. I support it anyhow.

Plutonic Panda
12-19-2013, 02:02 PM
I don't think throwing millions of dollars at building storm shelters is the answer for protecting Oklahoma's Children during severe weather. We all know how this scheme will turn out some districts will get the best shelters for the money while others get taken by fly by night companies and shoddy workmanship that is not discovered until years after the shelter is built. You also have the possibility of district officials building cheap and pocketing the money.

What we need to look at is the fact that single story, brick and mortar, flat roof school houses have to be phased out in this state. Moore Public Schools has 23 of these type elementary schools strung out around the district. Most of them are less than a mile from one another. Imagine how much safer if these schools were cut down to 12 or 6 four to five story(including basement/concourse level) facilities on the same size footprint as the average elementary school in Moore. If a tornado hit the old Central High School in Downtown OKC or Capitol Hill High School there is a pretty good chance the schools would survive structurally and the kids inside would as well with minor injuries from flying debris.So do it over a course of five years and have a certain committee oversee who builds the shelters and have them inspected to ensure they will last and hold-up.

MWCGuy
12-20-2013, 04:04 AM
So do it over a course of five years and have a certain committee oversee who builds the shelters and have them inspected to ensure they will last and hold-up.

A committee selected by our lovely sleeze ball legislature that has been known since statehood and is still known to this day for nepotism and corruption. Don't think so. I fear that we are going to blow millions of dollars on this just like every other problem the government program just find out that the shelters were not built strong enough or they simply can't be built strong enough to survive a large tornado.

JIMBO
12-22-2013, 01:30 PM
Most tornados occur from April trough June, and from 4pm to 9pm.

Wouldn't it be wiser to just close schools early when weather conditions warrent?

ljbab728
12-22-2013, 09:30 PM
Most tornados occur from April trough June, and from 4pm to 9pm.

Wouldn't it be wiser to just close schools early when weather conditions warrent?

That sounds like a good idea on it's face but it could pose significant hardships on many parents much like snow days do in the winter.

Jeepnokc
12-25-2013, 10:29 PM
Brogdon announced today that he is running for governor as a Republican today. Looks like Mary gets to spend a little money in the primary. On the democratic side, you have Joe Dorman and RJ Harris so there will be a primary there also.

soonerguru
12-25-2013, 11:00 PM
Brogdon announced today that he is running for governor as a Republican today. Looks like Mary gets to spend a little money in the primary. On the democratic side, you have Joe Dorman and RJ Harris so there will be a primary there also.

Harris is a libertarian. I don't see that being much of a race. And what is Brogdon going to run on? Fallin not right wing enough? I don't see that making much of an impact.

Snowman
12-26-2013, 06:41 AM
Most tornados occur from April trough June, and from 4pm to 9pm.

Wouldn't it be wiser to just close schools early when weather conditions warrent?

A lot of the schools already release students before 4:00, the 2013 tornado(s) which lead to students deaths in Moore were between 2:56–3:35

There ends up being two poor outcomes if you are closing due to weather conditions, either wait so late that you may well be putting people at more risk by being stuck in traffic when it comes through or releasing so early will be always be so overly broad that almost never will it be for a case it really helped those at the school and it will always cause a huge disruption for the schools, parents and their employers.

Jeepnokc
12-26-2013, 07:51 AM
Harris is a libertarian. I don't see that being much of a race. And what is Brogdon going to run on? Fallin not right wing enough? I don't see that making much of an impact.

Don't underestimate the importance of a primary. On the GOP side, it will cause Mary to spend money (which she has plenty of) but as you pointed out......who can be right wing enough. Although we are a very conservative state, Brad Henry was successful because he was more central than left. There are a lot of registered republicans like myself that the party is running off because it is moving so far right. The primary will force Mary and Brogdon to run a far right campaign which may alienate even more middle of the road republicans. That is part of the problem the GOP has had nationally the last several elections. They have to run far right to get nomination and then were unable to move back more central for the general election. Granted though the GOP carried every county in OK.

soonerguru
12-26-2013, 10:14 AM
Don't underestimate the importance of a primary. On the GOP side, it will cause Mary to spend money (which she has plenty of) but as you pointed out......who can be right wing enough. Although we are a very conservative state, Brad Henry was successful because he was more central than left. There are a lot of registered republicans like myself that the party is running off because it is moving so far right. The primary will force Mary and Brogdon to run a far right campaign which may alienate even more middle of the road republicans. That is part of the problem the GOP has had nationally the last several elections. They have to run far right to get nomination and then were unable to move back more central for the general election. Granted though the GOP carried every county in OK.

I suspect the Oklahoma Dems have hit rock bottom. With Hilary as the nominee, I would expect improvement in state performance for the Democrats.

Bunty
02-01-2014, 03:25 PM
Gov. Fallin wants to raise property taxes to pay for storm shelters: Mary Fallin Calls for Largest Property Tax Increase in State History | Oklahoma Democratic Party (http://okdemocrats.org/2014/01/mary-fallin-calls-for-largest-property-tax-increase-in-state-history/)

But the most it probably means is that your property taxes only go up if you vote to allow them.