View Full Version : River Grandstand



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Pete
12-15-2013, 11:20 AM
development
|category1=River
|category2=Maps 3
|category3=
|category4=
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|project=
|address=
|status=dead
|owner=
|cost=$10 million
|architect=Rand Elliott
|start=
|finish=
|contractor=
|height=
|sq. feet=
|acreage=
|other=Maps 3 project; may also include floating stage
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|image=http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/grandstandwiki1.jpg
|

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Plutonic Panda
07-24-2014, 06:20 AM
Is this going to be built?

Snowman
07-24-2014, 06:23 AM
Is this going to be built?

It is budgeted for in phase 4 of the MAPS3 river projects, so as long as their is not some major overrun with building the whitewater course/buildings then yes. Of course their could be major changes from the concept to what actually gets built.

David
07-24-2014, 08:02 AM
I have to wonder what the plans are for getting people to the grandstand. Looking at the area on Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4562456,-97.5031506,472m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), that part of the south bank of the river doesn't look particularly accessible without a fair bit of a hike. The closest parking is the lot on the west side of Lincoln, but even getting to it is a bit of a maze based on the streets I am looking at.

Lincoln already has a pedestrian walkway on the east side, you could drop a staircase off the side of it right at the south bank to provide a bit better access so people walking from the boathouses don't have to go all the way down to Byers to get off the bridge. Maybe an elevator too for disability support.

jn1780
07-24-2014, 08:11 AM
I have to wonder what the plans are for getting people to the grandstand. Looking at the area on Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4562456,-97.5031506,472m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), that part of the south bank of the river doesn't look particularly accessible without a fair bit of a hike. The closest parking is the lot on the west side of Lincoln, but even getting to it is a bit of a maze based on the streets I am looking at.

Lincoln already has a pedestrian walkway on the east side, you could drop a staircase off the side of it right at the south bank to provide a bit better access so people walking from the boathouses don't have to go all the way down to Byers to get off the bridge. Maybe an elevator too for disability support.

This is Oklahoma City, the solution almost always involves building a road and parking lot. lol

Snowman
07-24-2014, 04:52 PM
I have to wonder what the plans are for getting people to the grandstand. Looking at the area on Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4562456,-97.5031506,472m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), that part of the south bank of the river doesn't look particularly accessible without a fair bit of a hike. The closest parking is the lot on the west side of Lincoln, but even getting to it is a bit of a maze based on the streets I am looking at.
They have already used one of the vacant fields on the south side of the bridge for overflow parking and run the tram back and forth to it, though I would not be surprised if they eventually bought some land near it and put in surface lots, also the city might allow a temporary permit for on street parking (especially the N/S streets) for a couple days of the year, since the biggest events are somewhat of a tournament style (with one off events mixed in) so by the second or third day of even the largest events some tapering off will occur as teams get knocked out.



Lincoln already has a pedestrian walkway on the east side, you could drop a staircase off the side of it right at the south bank to provide a bit better access so people walking from the boathouses don't have to go all the way down to Byers to get off the bridge. Maybe an elevator too for disability support.

So far has not been funded and nothing in MAPS3 specifically indicates money will go to this but the boathouse district plan has had elevators and stairs on both sides from the bridge to the pedestrian trails since it was first released around ten years ago
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_QJCmVrtNDjI/Sm0gVj9N5lI/AAAAAAAAAWc/Qz20A3PW5tM/s576/Special%20Features.jpg

David
07-24-2014, 05:28 PM
Hey, there we go. Exactly what I was thinking.

catcherinthewry
07-24-2014, 07:45 PM
I have to wonder what the plans are for getting people to the grandstand.

Zip Line!

UnFrSaKn
07-25-2014, 02:50 AM
Pushed back?

OKC whitewater project bids come in high | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5072811)

UnFrSaKn
07-25-2014, 09:45 AM
Bill Crum:

10:35
Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

Plutonic Panda
07-25-2014, 03:14 PM
Well that kind of sucks. I mean, it would be nice to have a grassy hill as an option to sit on, but don't you think a grandstand would the river feel more "official" for events?

Snowman
07-25-2014, 04:42 PM
Well that kind of sucks. I mean, it would be nice to have a grassy hill as an option to sit on, but don't you think a grandstand would the river feel more "official" for events?

The grandstands have never been high on what I would like to have seen done. Right now we only have one organic local yearly event that might plausibly get any use out of it, some years there would be more than if we hosted a larger national or international event, most of the rest would probably work best if it was just pretended like it was not there. However once you have them, they can make other events feel like hardly anyone came. Then there is the logistical issues created by putting it on the opposite side of the river from everything else, even if they put stairs flanking the river to the bridge that is going to feel like a long walk people will not want to do many times. There is pretty much a fact that most of the audience will either knows at least one of the people racing well or will be a family member, part of the reason sitting in the grass is popular is teams will bring tents/awning, lawn furniture and other things and set up group viewing area east of the where the finishline general viewing area. It makes the most sense to have these mini camps on the north side since they will have team members coming and going all day to launch and recover boats, and is where much of the people from your city will go if not either racing or going to the sort of rowing fair. This could end up causing a bit of an issue with where do you set up the food trucks and temporary event spaces, do you cater more to the grandstands or to the athletes. It also places people much further away from the permanent children's playground and courses that people might like to go over to before or after the people they know race. In some ways I could see doing more of the terracing like near the finishline tower in front of the boathouses like in the original district master plan would be better overall for events.

Mel
07-25-2014, 06:18 PM
I would just hike in our fold out camper chairs. Insects like me a whole lot more than I like them.

Laramie
07-25-2014, 06:44 PM
Oklahoma City needs aggressive progress. Propose something, by the time we study, plan and build--the projects are sometimes inadequate or obsolete.

Take a note from former Mayor Ron Norick, remember how he got MAPS approved? He took it to a committee of strategic leaders and citizens; he kept the press away along with the blood hound scrutinizers. This allowed us to get a jump start. Critics said that we didn't need a 20,000-seat arena based on the fact that we didn't fill the old Myriad. Did anyone stop to think that the Myriad was too small to attract any major significant events? Would the Hornets have relocated here temporarily after Katrina or would they have gone to Louisville?

The River Granstands is a great idea. The river grandstands includes a floating water stage, this will attract other events. You will attract and/or create more quality adventures.


https://sp1.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608021653983200009&pid=15.1&P=0

What city other than Detroit has this type of facility on the river? https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607987637845886168&pid=15.1&P=0


You want future water events? Get the city ready and armed with the facilities to move ahead.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

ljbab728
07-25-2014, 10:39 PM
Most people are not saying that we should just scrap potential plans for the grandstands completely. But, if there is a choice to be made, the Whitewater Center should have priority.

Plutonic Panda
07-25-2014, 10:49 PM
Man...

Laramie I agree with you!

I think the city just needs to try and get a maps 3 extension to finish funding the the full maps 3 as proposed. Do the original sidewalks plan and get the grandstands. Snowman, you make good points, but I still support the grandstands. There would just make the whole thing feel like a legit setup for me at least.

Bellaboo
07-25-2014, 11:08 PM
This grandstand can come with the next Maps, let's don't half ass the white water course.

We can through a world class velodrome in there too.

Plutonic Panda
07-25-2014, 11:15 PM
No you don't understand... I want a legit whitewater course but we can extend the maps 3 collection period to get more money

David
07-26-2014, 06:23 AM
IMO it would be better to make the next Maps vote a vote for new projects. We need something new to get people excited, not the same list as seven years previously with an (unfinished) next to some of the projects, especially if the ones in question are various small things like the grandstand.

Dennis Heaton
07-26-2014, 08:22 AM
Laramie...You asked, "What city other than Detroit has this type of facility on the river?"

This isn't a "river," but look at what happened in Miami...

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/8749d1406384532-river-grandstand-miami-marine-stadium-2.jpg

Miami Marine Stadium

OKVision4U
07-26-2014, 09:31 AM
Mayor / People.... This is what happens when we "Okie Down" a project. Just becuase they sell "cammo" lawn chairs in Bass Pro does not mean I want to use them at a US Rowing Event. Does my grandmother have to sit on the slippery grassy slope too ???

This project MUST have structure. The Grandstand provides that. This is not All Sports Stadium with a grass , red dirt hill. Who is the dumb okie that is suggesting this ??? Please.... The problem is not the the cost of this project, the problem is the dumb okie that always under estimates these things.

Do NOT Okie Down another MAPS project. This is the "why" we have MAPS in the first place. To take projects ( Out of Committee ) and be successful. The Grandstands provide a level of "completion" to the river complex. The south side of the river needs just as much "attention" as the north side. I'm not saying have any boathouses, I'm just saying it needs to have the same level of professional attention to detail as the North side. ..a slippery grassy slope just lets the south wind blow grass and dirt in your face when you are watching these events.

Mayor, don't let this happen. Finish it w/ the same detail. Let's think bigger than a few people sitting in a cammo chair.

Urbanized
07-26-2014, 09:35 AM
Are you going to cut/paste the same post into every thread about the various river projects?

dankrutka
07-26-2014, 09:38 AM
I actually think just lining the hill with concrete slabs (like in front of the Finish Line Tower) would look better and make more sense. Again, this grandstand is going to be needed very few days in a year. Building seats into the hill would look good, be cheap, and meet the needs of events on the river.

OKVision4U
07-26-2014, 09:42 AM
Urb, I will do whatever it takes to make sure the Grandstand does not get cut. I will promise you that. Anytime we build projects on the cheap, we lose. Period! Quit spending out of your own pockets.

I will say many of you get too caught up in the "sand box" dialogue and lose sight on the big picture. That is where I come in. ....the adults taking the keys away from the teenagers.

David
07-26-2014, 09:59 AM
Oh, I had almost forgotten the other guy I wish Pete would ban.

Paseofreak
07-26-2014, 10:02 AM
Unbelievable! Pete???

jccouger
07-26-2014, 10:42 AM
10:35
Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

Hot Grandstand? The renderings shows a very large canopy. Being in the grandstand will provide the most shade & coolest temperatures along the entire river. As well as having the best view of whatever event you come to see. It also would increase capacity, for events which would help bring in more $ & grandstands normally has built in concessions. By increasing comfort at these events will increase quality of life (the reason we have maps) . The grandstand will also bring life to the south side of the river, which is very important.

Cutting the grandstands would be a horrible idea.

BrettM2
07-26-2014, 10:53 AM
Oh, I had almost forgotten the other guy I wish Pete would ban.

You forget that he's so much smarter than us. That's why he posts here... he gets things done because Mayor Cornett and Gov. Fallon read all his posts before making any decisions.

RadicalModerate
07-26-2014, 10:56 AM
I actually think just lining the hill with concrete slabs (like in front of the Finish Line Tower) would look better and make more sense. Again, this grandstand is going to be needed very few days in a year. Building seats into the hill would look good, be cheap, and meet the needs of events on the river.

I hope this isn't off-topic, but gabions almost always look more aesthetic and natural than concrete slabs.

Edited to Add: It just occurred to me that a lot of the concrete debris from Stage Center could be used in the construction of the aforementioned gabions rather than winding up in a landfill. It would be a good example of recycling/repurposing/steampunk/etc. If designed properly, in an ergonomic manner, the arrangement of the gabions could be multi-tasked as seating.

soonerguru
07-26-2014, 11:30 AM
you forget that's he so much smarter than us. That's why he posts here... He gets things done because mayor cornett and gov. Fallon read all his posts begore making any decisions.

;)

Plutonic Panda
07-26-2014, 12:01 PM
Urb, I will do whatever it takes to make sure the Grandstand does not get cut. I will promise you that. Anytime we build projects on the cheap, we lose. Period! Quit spending out of your own pockets.

I will say many of you get too caught up in the "sand box" dialogue and lose sight on the big picture. That is where I come in. ....the adults taking the keys away from the teenagers.I agree with you on this. I hope the grandstand doesn't get cut either. If it comes down to it, like others said, I'd rather see the whitewater course finished of the best build quality money can buy, I don't want to half ass this, but MAPS 3 should either be extended or a new sales tax added to make up for the projects that were cut.

Plutonic Panda
07-26-2014, 12:04 PM
Oh, I had almost forgotten the other guy I wish Pete would ban.Why is that? Are we just going to ban people you don't want to see or disagree with? I can understand Bchris being banned, but you want to ban someone who, from what I've seen, nearly has every post about positive things about the city and what he wants to see done? Instead of negative criticism, he just posts things he would like to see. Goddamn man, are you guys going to come after me next for posting about wanting bigger highways??? :p

David, I'm not trying to be hostile or argumentative with you, I'm just saying.

BrettM2
07-26-2014, 12:13 PM
Why is that? Are we just going to ban people you don't want to see or disagree with? I can understand Bchris being banned, but you want to ban someone who, from what I've seen, nearly has every post about positive things about the city and what he wants to see done? Instead of negative criticism, he just posts things he would like to see. Goddamn man, are you guys going to come after me next for posting about wanting bigger highways??? :p

David, I'm not trying to be hostile or argumentative with you, I'm just saying.

Every one of his posts puts down Oklahomans in general, and posters here specifically, as ignorant people incapable of seeing his brilliance or doing anything positive/worthwhile to make OKC better. Not sure how that fits your profile of him.

Laramie
07-26-2014, 12:43 PM
Continue the MAPS momentum; do whatever it takes to get these projects finished (extension, MAPS IV). You don't want to tarnish the MAPS brand that has been established throughout the years.



http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

catcherinthewry
07-26-2014, 03:17 PM
are you guys going to come after me next for posting about wanting bigger highways??? :p


Hmmm, now that you mention it......except I wouldn't be too far down the list myself. :cool:

David
07-26-2014, 03:42 PM
Why is that? Are we just going to ban people you don't want to see or disagree with? I can understand Bchris being banned, but you want to ban someone who, from what I've seen, nearly has every post about positive things about the city and what he wants to see done? Instead of negative criticism, he just posts things he would like to see. Goddamn man, are you guys going to come after me next for posting about wanting bigger highways??? :p

David, I'm not trying to be hostile or argumentative with you, I'm just saying.

Two reasons. 1) His constant nonsensical condescension:


That is where I come in. ....the adults taking the keys away from the teenagers.

What the hell does that even mean??

And 2) His unending crimes against grammar. For proof of those, just review any post he has ever made.

Plutonic Panda
07-26-2014, 03:45 PM
Two reasons. 1) His constant nonsensical condescension:



What the hell does that even mean??

And 2) His unending crimes against grammar. For proof of those, just review any post he has ever made.
Well, now that I can't argue against lol

Plutonic Panda
07-26-2014, 03:47 PM
:Smiley031:Smiley031
Hmmm, now that you mention it......except I wouldn't be too far down the list myself. :cool:

OKVision4U
07-26-2014, 04:57 PM
Thank Panda! I want the Best for OKC, not the typical way of business we usually take.

....and guys, I'm not here for any grammar contest. It doesn't pay enough for me to be concerned w/ it.

Laramie
07-26-2014, 04:58 PM
Thank Panda! I want the Best for OKC, not the typical way of business we usually take.....and guys, I'm not here for any grammar contest. It doesn't pay enough for me to be concerned w/ it.

Amen!


I actually think just lining the hill with concrete slabs (like in front of the Finish Line Tower) would look better and make more sense. Again, this grandstand is going to be needed very few days in a year. Building seats into the hill would look good, be cheap, and meet the needs of events on the river.


Let's stay the course:

Cheap or inexpensive? If you build, go with a permanent grandstand, the river has been known to shift as it carves its own course. The grandstand will have a floating stage. Some of us would prefer a grandstand instead of a grass seat; something with restrooms & running water instead of those blue port-a-potties.

...Depending on remaining budget, the fourth phase could include improvements such as a grandstand, a floating stage , Lincoln Bridge enhancements, parking, additional landscaping, additional specialty lighting, whitewater enhancements, second 1,000 meters of lighting and additional windscreens

Source: City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/projects/river.html)

The grandstands & floating stage could allow for more events on the river...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Plutonic Panda
07-26-2014, 05:08 PM
Thank Panda! I want the Best for OKC, not the typical way of business we usually take.

....and guys, I'm not here for any grammar contest. It doesn't pay enough for me to be concerned w/ it.np man. You have some awesome ideas. Haters gonna hate ;)

Plutonic Panda
07-26-2014, 05:10 PM
Amen!




Let's stay the course:

Cheap or inexpensive? If you build, go with a permanent grandstand, the river has been known to shift as it carves its own course. The grandstand will have a floating stage. Some of us would prefer a grandstand instead of a grass seat; something with restrooms & running water instead of those blue port-a-potties.

...Depending on remaining budget, the fourth phase could include improvements such as a grandstand, a floating stage , Lincoln Bridge enhancements, parking, additional landscaping, additional specialty lighting, whitewater enhancements, second 1,000 meters of lighting and additional windscreens

Source: City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/projects/river.html)

The grandstands & floating stage could allow for more events on the river...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif that is truly awesome!!!! Hopefully it gets built! It will be so exciting to see the river built up and I think it will be a fairly large player in OKC tourism once all said and done. If we do this right, we might have one of the best rivers in the country.

OKVision4U
07-26-2014, 05:13 PM
You forget that he's so much smarter than us. That's why he posts here... he gets things done because Mayor Cornett and Gov. Fallon read all his posts before making any decisions.

...and you think they never "observe" the one forum that is about their business ? ...Oklahoma City civics.. Ideas? Planning? ..Business trends ??? City & State desires direct from the people? ... I bet they even have a screen name too. :)

catch22
07-26-2014, 05:26 PM
Knowing Fallin's excellence, I'm sure she goes by the handle OKvision4U.

OKVision4U
07-26-2014, 05:34 PM
Knowing Fallin's excellence, I'm sure she goes by the handle OKvision4U.

no, this is not her's, but she does keep an eye on this forum. ...Mr. Cornett does too. It is their business to stay informed. ...Pete has this thing going well and it helps keep OKC and the State, more relative every day. :)

Laramie
07-26-2014, 05:36 PM
The whole thing in a nutshell, Steve Lackmeyer does a great job with his report on this:

River Attraction: Oklahoma River is becoming a big draw for Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/river-attraction-oklahoma-river-is-becoming-a-big-draw-for-oklahoma-city/article/3857471)

Time for Oklahoma City to have something that is second to none; let's do a world class job with what will eventually become a world class river.


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZ5lMv-XEhOvYMj5GCpAFlc-YxtL6cVtOkSXBM_ttWA_4XMkMJPg https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYMjUZ7EIs8jzLCMI2uMoaNNeszOzFF zGuML6ARSL-EvE2mSbC
The Future is Now!

http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Snowman
07-26-2014, 05:41 PM
Amen!




Let's stay the course:

Cheap or inexpensive? If you build, go with a permanent grandstand, the river has been known to shift as it carves its own course. The grandstand will have a floating stage. Some of us would prefer a grandstand instead of a grass seat; something with restrooms & running water instead of those blue port-a-potties.

...Depending on remaining budget, the fourth phase could include improvements such as a grandstand, a floating stage , Lincoln Bridge enhancements, parking, additional landscaping, additional specialty lighting, whitewater enhancements, second 1,000 meters of lighting and additional windscreens

Source: City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/projects/river.html)

The grandstands & floating stage could allow for more events on the river...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

After Devon opened there has never been that much of a line in the bathrooms there during events, after the CHK Boathouse and Whitewater building open the probably could do the events without bring in any port-a-potties, certainly after the OU boathouse and the Sandridge Pavilion open there is little reason not to just use the normal bathrooms. Also at least at some point there was also talk of the Boathouse taking over the maintenance of the river cruzer's bathrooms and making them open to the public, instead of just the cruzer passengers.

ljbab728
07-26-2014, 10:01 PM
The grandstands & floating stage could allow for more events on the river...


Please note that there are also plans to eventually include an amphitheater on the South side of the river in conjunction with Core to Shore as shown here.

http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/images/redevconcept.jpg

Laramie
07-27-2014, 02:14 PM
Please note that there are also plans to eventually include an amphitheater on the South side of the river in conjunction with Core to Shore as shown here.

http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/images/redevconcept.jpg

Wow!

Thanks ljbab728, you are observant. The drawing depicts an Amphitheater (bottom center); that's adds to the discussion about what is needed. Looks like a lot of duplication we don't necessarily need since there is a viable amphitheater at the Zoo. Was this one of the wish list projects like item #10. NFL stadium draft on the river?

We need to decide what we want to build and concentrate our efforts on a few quality developments; then phase other projects in which would allow flexibility to make changes.

The link below are videos about the trails, street car and whitewater park scale models:

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/)

Should we designate the south side of river plans for housing (residential) development and the north side for adventure and entertainment?

Do we need a grandstands and an amphitheater; or is the outdoor theater someone's idea to throw the south side a bone and a few scraps?

Here are the MAPS 3 survey results: City of Oklahoma City | MAPS 3 survey results (http://www.okc.gov/about_okc/maps_3_survey.html)

Projections of our growth: MAPS IV will probably be eight year collections in the neighborhood of $1 billion in projects. Oh, what about MAPS V? Time to replace the Chesapeake Energy Arena or the team moves to Seattle? Just kidding...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Snowman
07-27-2014, 06:00 PM
Thanks ljbab728, you are observant. The drawing depicts an Amphitheater (bottom center); that's adds to the discussion about what is needed. Looks like a lot of duplication we don't necessarily need since there is a viable amphitheater at the Zoo. Was this one of the wish list projects like item #10. NFL stadium draft on the river?

There have been plans for an amphitheater in C2S since the first draft, I think the original was larger though and would have held more people than the Zoo one.


Do we need a grandstands and an amphitheater; or is the outdoor theater someone's idea to throw the south side a bone and a few scraps?

The amphitheater is probably on the south side because that way you get a view of both the river and downtown's skyscrapers from the audiences seats, which are generally considered good views when doing a structure like that. Plus when C2S was originally in planning there was no reason to expect anything like the Boathouse District as we know it, I want to say it was penciled in as possible low rise residential, Regatta Park (the area around the Chesapeake Boathouse) might have made it into some of the later versions.

Laramie
07-27-2014, 06:35 PM
There have been plans for an amphitheater in C2S since the first draft, I think the original was larger though and would have held more people than the Zoo one.

The Zoo Amphitheater has held crowds of up to 20,000. The official capacity is 11,200. They must have planned one hell of a venue on the river for MAPS III.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

bombermwc
07-28-2014, 07:37 AM
I"m curious to see what they find when they look over the proposals to see how they were so far off in their estimates, or better yet, why the bids all think it should be so expensive. I'm wondering if the firms added too much padding or grossly inflated their cost estimates. You don't really get into something like this and miss the estimate by 50% and not have something really wrong going on. Either the group that created the estimate was woefully uneducated on something, or we're getting taken for a ride on expenses.

I don't necessarily agree with this, but john w public will probably not really be too hot to agree to an extension for river projects like this. I say that because most people won't ever even go down to the river, so they dont feel any connection/ownership to the project. In relative terms, it's a small slice of the populous but will take quite a bit of capital. I'm 100% for it, but i'm just playing devil's advocate here to keep the enthusiasm grounded in practicality. MAPs3 hasn't produced much yet, and so to the public, momentum doesn't exist. The can't go down and see the park yet, heaven forbid we get anything going on the CC, now there are cost over-runs on a project that hasn't even started to get built yet. So to ask for an extension at this juncture, would not be a good plan. Especially since the previous extension was seen as a a way to cover their butts in miscalculation. Again, hey i'm all for this stuff and the MAPs approach to collections is far superior for these public projects than anything i've seen elsewhere....but if you dont keep the public interested on a broad scale and give them something they can see for it, they start to lose interest. And THAT becomes an issue for the next round. Just IMO here, i feel like the city wants to keep pushing MAPs-style programs so we don't have to kick them back into gear after they've stopped, but that they are in danger of losing the general public's interest after MAPs3's project choices. MAPs4 is going to have to touch things more people use every day instead of just the big trophy stuff.

Laramie
07-28-2014, 11:34 AM
You touched on one key items:


bombermwc: MAPs4 is going to have to touch things more people use every day instead of just the big trophy stuff.

Go ahead with what we planned (Grandstands and the Amphitheater). Our river will continue to grow with events and attractions. Let's stay the course, plan for the future expansion and developments...

Are the bids on the Whitewater project over projections because these developers know that there is a $30 million contingency fund?

Not to that say that MAPS brand is safe; however, the survey or a new survey could tell you more about what people value. Here are five of the top items listed on the MAPS III survey:

1. Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) 668. (Expand the streetcars system; pilot a few wireless street cars)
2. Infrastructure, Including Streets 188. (Go after matching grant items from the Federal Government.)
3. Trails 140 (Let's loop with few inner spoke wheels into the city).
4. General Parks Improvement/Expansion 123 (Every major city park could use more attention)
5. Beautification (includes trees, streetscapes) 117 (on going...)

All of these items have been somewhat addressed in the MAPS III initiative. Continue to include these in MAPS IV along with a few big trophy stuff items (as you referred to them).

What we will need among the big trophy stuff items:


https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608019003997029703&pid=15.1&P=0 https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608004413988343459&pid=15.1&P=0 https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608026361273452831&pid=15.1&P=0
1. Economic Development 20. An incentive fund to attract new businesses (5 grants @ $20 million)

https://sp1.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608003585061617673&pid=15.1&P=0 https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608020043382787706&pid=15.1&P=0 https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608002996652343412&pid=15.1&P=0
2. Gateways to City 12. From: Tulsa I-44, Wichita I-35, Amarillo I-40 & Dallas I-35 junctions...


http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/espn1420.com/files/2013/03/Master-Plan-Pics-006-630x332.jpg
3. Football or Soccer Stadium 65. A riverfront stadium (MLS spec - 30,000-chair back seat starter) capable of future expansion.

OKVision4U
07-28-2014, 12:24 PM
The Grandstands on the river could be more lengthy in design too. I like having it stretched somewhat and having a taller finish line area. It doesn't have to be a massive structure, but one that will provide a great look for the River Experience as a whole.

One idea is to have provide an area for walking / running along the south side "boardwalk" of the river and bring it into a Marathon Course layout for finish lines ??

Plutonic Panda
07-28-2014, 03:06 PM
agreed!

bombermwc
07-29-2014, 07:18 AM
Laramie - i mostly agree, but i'm not sure that i would put economic development in as a MAPs program. MAPs is about stuff...always has been. People want something they can touch and use. I don't disagree that economic development is a major part of the success of the city, i'm just not sure people would want to vote to include it in a MAPs program. I would bet that most people would feel like it would simply be used to pay into pockets of large corporations and they wouldn't see how it serves the city. Again, i'm not disagreeing, but it might be better presented as part of the city budget or through something like the chamber rather than MAPs.

I'm definitely concerned about the grandstands/whitewater and that contingency budget. Something definitely stinks about this, and it's not the river....

Urbanized
07-29-2014, 08:10 AM
MAPS is and always should remain a capital projects fund focused on quality of life improvements. The thought was that QOL improvements would help retain existing talent and businesses (it has been very successful in this regard) and that I roved QOL and better talent pool would attract outside investment/expansions/relocations, and all indications is that this is now underway and picking up steam.

It was a rejection of the quick-fix massive-corporate-incentives-for-jobs route that (fortunately, in retrospect) failed to land the United Airlines maintenance facility that ended up in Indianapolis. The lesson we learned was that no amount of incentives could buy quality jobs if it sucked to live here. Selling out this vision and going back to the "please, PLEASE move here...we'll pay you..." route would be a fundamental step back in our efforts.

Laramie
07-29-2014, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the reminder bombermwc & Urbanized:

The economic development will come as a result of MAPS and not as a direct financial incentive. We learned that from General Motors along with several other maintenance facilities we attempted to pursue. These are capital improvement projects..


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Just the facts
07-29-2014, 11:21 AM
MAPS is and always should remain a capital projects fund focused on quality of life improvements. The thought was that QOL improvements would help retain existing talent and businesses (it has been very successful in this regard) and that I roved QOL and better talent pool would attract outside investment/expansions/relocations, and all indications is that this is now underway and picking up steam.

It was a rejection of the quick-fix massive-corporate-incentives-for-jobs route that (fortunately, in retrospect) failed to land the United Airlines maintenance facility that ended up in Indianapolis. The lesson we learned was that no amount of incentives could buy quality jobs if it sucked to live here. Selling out this vision and going back to the "please, PLEASE move here...we'll pay you..." route would be a fundamental step back in our efforts.

^This. Plus, no matter what happens the Bricktown Canal and downtown arena are not going to pack up and move to another city. Make OKC a nice place to live and people will want to live there for no other reason.

Larry OKC
07-29-2014, 03:52 PM
No need for it to be in any MAPS...we already have multiple economic development funding mechanisms that we use regularly...

Programs | Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City (http://www.theallianceokc.org/programs)

And there was the $75 million bond issue from 2007 that is used regularly (someone correct me but weren't all of these funded at least in part thru it: Boeing, Continental, Outlet Shoppes, Von Maur and Cabela’s etc??

The City of Oklahoma City - 2007 City Bond Election (http://www.okc.gov/bonds2007/BondInformation.aspx?propParam=11&propText=PROPOSITION%2011%20(ECONOMIC%20DEVELOPMEN T)&sectParam=Economic%20Development&sectText=Economic%20Development)