Nelson Mandela dies - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/05/world/africa/nelson-mandela/)

http://i.imgur.com/TugQgqE.jpg

The man lived to a ripe ol' age for someone who had to travel the rough road that he did.

It will be awhile before he will truly get to rest in peace. Family members will now begin the battle over where he will be buried.

So true. Spend that long in prison, especially a prison in Sudan, and you've already put in more than just about anyone else in one life.

"Sudan"?

judging by the frequency of my facebook friends' status updates, paul walker played a more influential role in history. i'm gonna have to say that's more than a little disappointing to me. -M

The real Nelson Mandela was not IMO as great as everyone else thinks.

The real Nelson Mandela was not IMO as great as everyone else thinks.

That's true of every great leader from Martin Luther King to Rush Limbaugh.
And probably on back to Og or Alley Oop.
(yet this doesn't prevent me from appreciating their positive contributions to society)

The real Nelson Mandela was not IMO as great as everyone else thinks.

Shocker! Please tell us who the "real Mandela" was, aside from the man who invited his prison guards to his inauguration and told his people, don't look to what past, look to the future and what we can do.

It's always easy to second-guess, criticize and nit-pick yet, if one believes that a reasonable definition of "Success" is that the world is a better place for one having been in it than if one had never been born and, in addition to that, that a generally positive legacy such as that left by Mr. Mandela is preferable to swimming through a wake of sh!t, then I'd have to say that Nelson Mandela falls on the good side--despite "the other stuff".

• Truth about South African icon at odds with public portrayal

By Pete Papaherakles

As South Africa’s 95-year-old Nelson Mandela lies in the hospital, the worldwide media portrays him as a larger-than-life heroic figure and the liberator of his people. But is that truth or fiction? And how will honest historians judge him?

The official story goes something like this: Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was born in 1918 into the Thembu tribe’s royal family. He studied law at two prestigious universities and became involved in “anti-colonial politics,” joining the African National Congress (ANC). He was committed to non-violent protest in gaining sovereignty for blacks. In 1962 he was arrested and convicted of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government and was sentenced to life in prison.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.dpuf)


Not saying people can't change , but he's a lot like Bill Ayers in a way.

• Truth about South African icon at odds with public portrayal

By Pete Papaherakles

As South Africa’s 95-year-old Nelson Mandela lies in the hospital, the worldwide media portrays him as a larger-than-life heroic figure and the liberator of his people. But is that truth or fiction? And how will honest historians judge him?

The official story goes something like this: Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was born in 1918 into the Thembu tribe’s royal family. He studied law at two prestigious universities and became involved in “anti-colonial politics,” joining the African National Congress (ANC). He was committed to non-violent protest in gaining sovereignty for blacks. In 1962 he was arrested and convicted of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government and was sentenced to life in prison.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.dpuf)


Not saying people can't change , but he's a lot like Bill Ayers in a way.

So you're a supporter of apartheid?

How'd I know you were going to use a rag like that. Haha. You've yet to post anything credible, from anyone credible.

According to the article, Mandela was an evil friend of European jewery, bent on destroying the only organizing force in Africa. Such benevolent Boers, you know. (I just threw up in my mouth a little bit)

Which part is untrue ?

• Truth about South African icon at odds with public portrayal

By Pete Papaherakles

As South Africa’s 95-year-old Nelson Mandela lies in the hospital, the worldwide media portrays him as a larger-than-life heroic figure and the liberator of his people. But is that truth or fiction? And how will honest historians judge him?

The official story goes something like this: Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was born in 1918 into the Thembu tribe’s royal family. He studied law at two prestigious universities and became involved in “anti-colonial politics,” joining the African National Congress (ANC). He was committed to non-violent protest in gaining sovereignty for blacks. In 1962 he was arrested and convicted of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government and was sentenced to life in prison.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.dpuf)


Not saying people can't change , but he's a lot like Bill Ayers in a way.

Kind of like those anti colonialism people in the late 1700's who sabotaged shipments in Boston harbor and conspired to overthrow the colonial government?

Which part is untrue ?

Neither of us is a South Africa or Melson Mandela historian, but the fact is that he fought against one of the more prominent unjust systems we had at the time. War makes strange bedfellows.

Was it wrong to fight against apartheid?

I'm simply glad that Mr. Mandela almost certainly had A. Lincoln, M. Gandhi and M.L. King as real life inspirations rather than Sharpton, Jackson and Hinn. (and that he didn't get all scientific about misplacing his faith).

Which part is untrue ?

With respect to the part you quoted, who cares?: Would we denigrate a slave from 1860 for engaging in sabotage? With all due respect (which, in my opinion, is not much), have you posted a single thing that has included any "thought" with respect to whether it was appropriate or not? Lincoln feared he overstepped his powers with regard to slavery during the Civil War. Should we throw that up now that he's passed?

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

In 1994, the same year Mandela took power, the Hutu tribe killed 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Similar tribal genocides have taken place in Congo, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, Mali, Zimbabwe, Angola and many more African countries. Tribal savagery and genocide has always been a way of life for Africans.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

South Africa also has the largest number of people infected with HIV/AIDS in the world. In 2007, over 18% of adults, or 5,700,000 people had AIDS. In 2010, an estimated 280,000 died of AIDS.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.JWwJgQxX.dpuf)

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

In 1994, the same year Mandela took power, the Hutu tribe killed 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Similar tribal genocides have taken place in Congo, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, Mali, Zimbabwe, Angola and many more African countries. Tribal savagery and genocide has always been a way of life for Africans.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

South Africa also has the largest number of people infected with HIV/AIDS in the world. In 2007, over 18% of adults, or 5,700,000 people had AIDS. In 2010, an estimated 280,000 died of AIDS.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.JWwJgQxX.dpuf)

So, you're a supporter of apartheid?

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

In 1994, the same year Mandela took power, the Hutu tribe killed 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Similar tribal genocides have taken place in Congo, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, Mali, Zimbabwe, Angola and many more African countries. Tribal savagery and genocide has always been a way of life for Africans.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

South Africa also has the largest number of people infected with HIV/AIDS in the world. In 2007, over 18% of adults, or 5,700,000 people had AIDS. In 2010, an estimated 280,000 died of AIDS.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.JWwJgQxX.dpuf)

Do you read anything that isn't on the outermost fringes of political thought? You certainly never quote anything worth taking the time to read.

In 1962, Mandela was arrested along with 19 others, half of whom were White communist Jews...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3292/5763428843_ce57f1f3a9.jpg

seriously... pick any single 'fact' from that article and i'll pick it apart. -M

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

In 1994, the same year Mandela took power, the Hutu tribe killed 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Similar tribal genocides have taken place in Congo, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, Mali, Zimbabwe, Angola and many more African countries. Tribal savagery and genocide has always been a way of life for Africans.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

South Africa also has the largest number of people infected with HIV/AIDS in the world. In 2007, over 18% of adults, or 5,700,000 people had AIDS. In 2010, an estimated 280,000 died of AIDS.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.JWwJgQxX.dpuf)



Are you educated at all?

Are you educated at all?

I wouldn't refute a lot of the post-apartheid crime and HIV stats, but that's what happens when you dismantle an incredibly oppressive police state.

So, you're a supporter of apartheid?

Well, he's quoting as a source a paper that's been classified as a hate group by the SLC, published by an KKK supporter and alleged neo-nazi, who is also a holocaust denier and 911 truther. I had to check out some of the other articles there. Wow.

I wouldn't refute a lot of the post-apartheid crime and HIV stats

but that's the thing, there are some real stats in there but the interpretation is just completely out there. other things, though, like 5% to 50% unemployment just seem totally inflated. -M

• Truth about South African icon at odds with public portrayal

By Pete Papaherakles

I'm not too proud to beg to differ regarding Garin's source citation.

With a name like Papaherakles it has to be just as good as some blind dude wandering around with a lantern looking for truth but not seeing it when he gets his wish.

Well, he's quoting as a source a paper that's been classified as a hate group by the SLC, published by an KKK supporter and alleged neo-nazi, who is also a holocaust denier and 911 truther. I had to check out some of the other articles there. Wow.

so who cares about the commie jew ties... what i want to know is what kind of deals mandela made with the reptilians. -M

I wouldn't refute a lot of the post-apartheid crime and HIV stats, but that's what happens when you dismantle an incredibly oppressive police state.

I was referring generally to his quote of AFP. It seems pretty par for the course.

I was referring generally to his quote of AFP. It seems pretty par for the course.

This is true. He's about a stone's throw from accusing Mandela of being a 33rd degree reptilian mason/ co-founder of the federal reserve banking cartel who murdered Obama's political opponents and planted crack cocaine on Rob Ford.

• Truth about South African icon at odds with public portrayal

By Pete Papaherakles

As South Africa’s 95-year-old Nelson Mandela lies in the hospital, the worldwide media portrays him as a larger-than-life heroic figure and the liberator of his people. But is that truth or fiction? And how will honest historians judge him?

The official story goes something like this: Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was born in 1918 into the Thembu tribe’s royal family. He studied law at two prestigious universities and became involved in “anti-colonial politics,” joining the African National Congress (ANC). He was committed to non-violent protest in gaining sovereignty for blacks. In 1962 he was arrested and convicted of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government and was sentenced to life in prison.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.dpuf)


Not saying people can't change , but he's a lot like Bill Ayers in a way.

This is one of the dumber things I've read on this board. Of course he was anti-colonial (every African and human should be anti-colonial if you believe in democracy) and the ANC only used violent resistance when it became absolutely necessary. Mandela was not a perfect man, but as a leader he's among the greatest the world has ever seen. He was basically Washington AND Lincoln for South Africa. RIP, Madiba.

This is true. He's about a stone's throw from accusing Mandela of being a 33rd degree reptilian mason/ co-founder of the federal reserve banking cartel who murdered Obama's political opponents and planted crack cocaine on Rob Ford.

I forgot to mention, just for example, his post that stated: "science is just an educate[d] guess as" further support of my point!

but that's the thing, there are some real stats in there but the interpretation is just completely out there. other things, though, like 5% to 50% unemployment just seem totally inflated. -M

My question on those stats is the following. Concerning the u/e and the crime rate, did the apartheid numbers that reflected SA as a bucolic paradise include the numbers from the "homelands" that SA maintained were independent countries that were recognized by no other country? If not then you are comparing two different countries.

Also curious as to what Hutus in Rawanda have to do with SA? Do the crime numbers in Houston reflect on Canadians?

That source that Garin cited is unadulterated garbage.

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

In 1994, the same year Mandela took power, the Hutu tribe killed 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Similar tribal genocides have taken place in Congo, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, Mali, Zimbabwe, Angola and many more African countries. Tribal savagery and genocide has always been a way of life for Africans.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

South Africa also has the largest number of people infected with HIV/AIDS in the world. In 2007, over 18% of adults, or 5,700,000 people had AIDS. In 2010, an estimated 280,000 died of AIDS.

- See more at: The Real Mandela | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.JWwJgQxX.dpuf)

This is completely and utterly historically inaccurate. These posts remind me a lot of Holocaust deniers. Very sick.

My question on those stats is the following. Concerning the u/e and the crime rate, did the apartheid numbers that reflected SA as a bucolic paradise include the numbers from the "homelands" that SA maintained were independent countries that were recognized by no other country? If not then you are comparing two different countries.

Also curious as to what Hutus in Rawanda have to do with SA? Do the crime numbers in Houston reflect on Canadians?

That source that Garin cited is unadulterated garbage.


This is completely and utterly historically inaccurate. These posts remind me a lot of Holocaust deniers. Very sick.


Yet there is a fairly large number of people that actually believe crap like that and wonder why people ridicule them when they try to defend it.

He did more good than bad. Something I think we all aspire to. Never a gentle way to get a jackboot off your neck.

He did more good than bad. Something I think we all aspire to. Never a gentle way to get a jackboot off your neck.

Yet the very same people who will denigrate Mr Mandela whine about non-existent tyranny in the US......and worship Ronald Reagan (and Cheney) who vehemently opposed sanctions designed to end apartheid. Thankfully today's Congress was not present in the Capitol and Reagan's veto was overridden.

Yet there is a fairly large number of people that actually believe crap like that and wonder why people ridicule them when they try to defend it.

Very disappointing that some of them post here regularly.

Yet there is a fairly large number of people that actually believe crap like that and wonder why people ridicule them when they try to defend it.

Other than replacing 'is' with 'are' I am compelled to agree with your observation.

Other than replacing 'is' with 'are' I am compelled to agree with your observation.

Dammit RadMod! I thought about that but......darn grammar cop. Oh wait, that is usually me. :wink:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3292/5763428843_ce57f1f3a9.jpg

seriously... pick any single 'fact' from that article and i'll pick it apart. -M

In 1962, Mandela was arrested along with 19 others, half of whom were White communist Jews, in a police raid of ANC headquarters at a farm owned by Andrew Goldreich, also a communist Jew, at Rivonia, a Johannesburg suburb. - See more at: http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.Mg8MxWHf.dpuf


Here you go. Pick away

Nelson Mandela, R.I.P | National Review Online (http://nationalreview.com/corner/365631/nelson-mandela-rip-deroy-murdock)

RIP Mr Mandela. The world needs more like him and less of people like Garin.

Nelson Mandela, R.I.P | National Review Online (http://nationalreview.com/corner/365631/nelson-mandela-rip-deroy-murdock)


Completely backs what was in the other article. I never said that people cant change and after 27 years spent in prison one would hope you would soften as he did. I think it is important to look at a persons whole life not just the good parts. Its history that's being erased because no one feels it necessary to educate the young and uninformed in this country and across the world. I ask anyone to explain the Country of Africa with a straight face was it better 100 years ago or now?

Dammit RadMod! I thought about that but......darn grammar cop. Oh wait, that is usually me. :wink:

You know . . . I think "is" was actually correct in that context since "a large number" is singular.

"Country of Africa"?

"Country of Africa"?

Continent sorry.

Nelson Mandela Was On The U.S. Terrorist Watch List Until 2008 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/05/nelson-mandela-terrorist_n_4394392.html)

Well, he's quoting as a source a paper that's been classified as a hate group by the SLC, published by an KKK supporter and alleged neo-nazi, who is also a holocaust denier and 911 truther. I had to check out some of the other articles there. Wow.
Next thing you know he will be quoting Clayton Bigsby.

I'll bet Joseph Goebbels didn't have anything nice to say about Mr. Mandela either.
(but he invented The Big Lie theory so everything he said has to be taken with a grain of salt. kosher salt.)

And what's so wrong about being a friend of European Jewelry?
Don't they have diamond mines on the continent of South Africa?

In 1962, Mandela was arrested along with 19 others, half of whom were White communist Jews, in a police raid of ANC headquarters at a farm owned by Andrew Goldreich, also a communist Jew, at Rivonia, a Johannesburg suburb.

#1 what does being jewish have to do with anything? it's beyond odd that the author chooses to point out that these individuals weren't just communists but communist jews. the article in one sense implies that mandela is some sort of stooge to the interests of a group of white jewish communists, then later implies that mandela supported the wholesale genocide of white south africans. it uses a video that purports to show him saying "kill all the whites", with white people chanting along with the group. it doesn't add up.

#2 so mandela was arrested with members of the anc. the article tries to use that as evidence that mandela himself was a communist sympathizer even through his presidency. the reality is that the relationship was not based upon communist sympathies but that both groups had common interest in destabilizing the colonial government. as president, mandela sought to find reconciliation in both his appointments and his policies. granted, people like slovo received appointments but you have to acknowledge that people like de klerk were also given positions. the fact is, that individuals from a broad range of ideologies received appointments. many of the anc's political goals found little support under mandela, contradicting the article's claim that he was some sort of anc ally or sympathizer.

-M

I'll bet Joseph Goebbels didn't have anything nice to say about Mr. Mandela either.
(but he invented The Big Lie theory so everything he said has to be taken with a grain of salt. kosher salt.)

And what's so wrong about being a friend of European Jewelry?
Don't they have diamond mines on the continent of South Africa?



Pretty sure he learned everything he knew about propaganda from Pres. Wilson

#1 what does being jewish have to do with anything? it's beyond odd that the author chooses to point out that these individuals weren't just communists but communist jews. the article in one sense implies that mandela is some sort of stooge to the interests of a group of white jewish communists, then later implies that mandela supported the wholesale genocide of white south africans. it uses a video that purports to show him saying "kill all the whites", with white people chanting along with the group. it doesn't add up.

#2 so mandela was arrested with members of the anc. the article tries to use that as evidence that mandela himself was a communist sympathizer even through his presidency. the reality is that the relationship was not based upon communist sympathies but that both groups had common interest in destabilizing the colonial government. as president, mandela sought to find reconciliation in both his appointments and his policies. granted, people like slovo received appointments but you have to acknowledge that people like de klerk were also given positions. the fact is, that individuals from a broad range of ideologies received appointments. many of the anc's political goals found little support under mandela, contradicting the article's claim that he was some sort of anc ally or sympathizer.

-M


Why did Reagan have him on the terrorist watch list?

Why did Reagan have him on the terrorist watch list?

non sequitur. we can move on to this but you need to finish defending the quote we're discussing before changing the topic to other sources. -M

In 1962, Mandela was arrested along with 19 others, half of whom were White communist Jews, in a police raid of ANC headquarters at a farm owned by Andrew Goldreich, also a communist Jew, at Rivonia, a Johannesburg suburb. - See more at: The Real Mandela (Published Online 7/24/2013) | American Free Press (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873#sthash.1vqgLZlI.Mg8MxWHf.dpuf)


Here you go. Pick away

EZ PEAZY. First false claim that can be refuted.

On 5 August 1962, police captured Mandela along with Cecil Williams near Howick. Mandela was posing as a chauffeur and was stopped at a roadblock by security forces. He was arrested there, not on a farm. In fact there is a memorial there by the place he was arrested. Many sources have speculated that the CIA was the snitch source as the SA security forces did not have the capabilities to gather the information on his whereabouts.

This is silly. Garin is throwing out a ton of inaccurate history, which is completely lacking in context (e.g., using the Rwandan genocide to show Africans are savages and somehow connecting it to Mandela and South Africa), wrapped in logical fallacies and then we're supposed to spend all day writing cited posts to disprove it. Lol. I'm just going to put it on the record that it's inaccurate at best (incredibly racist at worst and more likely) and move on with my life.

Pete should consider closing threads such as this one if they're going to allow a stage for posts such as Garin's.

Just from this particular thread, it is obvious not much has changed with some of them......

When Conservatives Branded Nelson Mandela A Terrorist - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/12/06/when-conservatives-branded-nelson-mandela-a-terrorist/)

This is silly. Garin is throwing out a ton of inaccurate history, which is completely lacking in context (e.g., using the Rwandan genocide to show Africans are savages and somehow connecting it to Mandela and South Africa), wrapped in logical fallacies and then we're supposed to spend all day writing cited posts to disprove it. Lol. I'm just going to put it on the record that it's inaccurate at best (incredibly racist at worst and more likely) and move on with my life.

Pete should consider closing threads such as this one if they're going to allow a stage for posts such as Garin's.

While you are right, I think the Garins of the world should be permitted to continue talking. It merely reveals the true nature of the motivation behind much of what that particular faction does. The best defense against that garbage is sunshine and rational thought followed by action - especially in the voting booth. Mr Mandela would not want us to ignore there are still people like Garin and permit them to remain in the shadows.

Free speech has its price. Forums have an ignore function. It all balances out.

It's a shame the focus of this thread has changed from honoring a great man like Mandela to arguing with a bigot and an idiot.

^ True - Mr Mandela acknowledged and expressed regret for his part in all the things some people are still trying to vilify the man over. The critics have forgotten that desperate times often call for desperate measures and it is undeniable those were desperate times for those suffering under apartheid. How convenient for them to forget his first acts as President were to start the reconciliation between the people of South Africa. The ongoing attempts to diminish his legacy and reputation reveal more about those making those statements than Mr Mandela - they are the type of people he forgave for decades of oppression yet they are incapable of doing so themselves.