We have to seriously start doing something with the mentally ill in this country. Letting them walk the streets doesn't seem to be working out for us. Never mind that most of our mass shooting, including the one yesterday in DC, are committed by the mentally ill, but go to any large city and see how many mentally ill people are sleeping in parks, urinate (or worse) on sidewalks, and generally harassing the public at-large. Then top that off with child molesters and others of like mind.

I don't know where we draw that line but if you are hearing voices in your head you should never set foot in public again. That should just be a given. The fact that someone like this would keep their 'secret' security clearance is in itself crazy.

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NAVY_YARD_SHOOTING_GUNMAN_MENTAL_HEALTH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-17-08-03-32)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. law enforcement officials are telling The Associated Press that the Navy contractor identified as the gunman in the mass shootings at the Washington Navy Yard had been suffering a host of serious mental issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder. He also had been hearing voices in his head, the officials said.

The question is how do you define mentally ill? What state of mental handicap should be the line before locking people up? You mention "hearing voices" - that in its essence could compass much of the religious population. You are getting into a slippery-slope that could lead to a totalitarian police state when you start talking about doing something like this.

What needs to happen is psychiatric therapy needs to be cheaper and more available. $200 per session is ridiculous and a lot of insurance doesn't cover mental therapy. That needs to change.

fwiw, not all voices heard are screaming Lock and Load! and not all delusions are menacing.

done. -M


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbipC85M4aI

You mention "hearing voices" - that in its essence could compass much of the religious population. You are getting into a slippery-slope that could lead to a totalitarian police state when you start talking about doing something like this.

No doubt the risk for government abuse is there but we can't tolerate crazy people on the streets either. As for religious people hearing God - those people are crazy and should be put in a sanitarium for awhile. God is not talking to people. The bible is pretty clear on that subject. I know someone who says God talked to him in his closet. I told him God wasn't talking to him and he got a little angry about that. I suspect he is using steroids which would explain why he is hearing voices.

fwiw, not all voices heard are screaming Lock and Load! and not all delusions are menacing.

That is one of the problems though. With a mentally ill person the voices can go from 'pet cats' to 'kill cats' at any time. That is what makes them mentally unstable.

Several years ago I was eating lunch with my mother-in-law at a Taco Bell. While we were sitting there a woman sat down next to us with two trays of food. She put one in front of her and the other at the empty seat across from her, and then started having a conversation with no one. I don't remember what she started talking about but after a few minutes she started getting upset that the other 'person' wasn't eating their food. Then she started yelling at them saying that they always waste their food. That was are cue to leave - fast.

If this lady was hearing a voice asking her to order food, what other things could she hear? What if this voice told her it was safe to cross the street when it isn't? If nothing else, this voice was cost her money by ordering food it wasn't going to eat. Not only do we need to protect the public from the mentally ill, but we need to protect them from themselves.

fwiw, not all voices heard are screaming Lock and Load! and not all delusions are menacing.

I can't think of a single delusion that I don't find menacing...

I know someone who says God talked to him in his closet. I told him God wasn't talking to him and he got a little angry about that. I suspect he is using steroids which would explain why he is hearing voices.
I5Zk2vUmjpk

When my daughter was little, I remember taking her to a park in Midwest City. I was sitting on one of the benches watching her play on the playground equipment. An older lady sat down next to me and started talking about how someone or something was spying on her and trying to get to her through the electrical outlets in her house. (As a former bartender--cheap, unlicensed, psychiatrist--I listened politely, nodding from time to time. I'm not sure if I suggested buying some of those Child Safety outlet plugs or not).

Strangely, many, many years later, one of our next door neighbors apparently quit taking her meds and had a related breakdown. She cut all of the wires to her house as well as the lines for the AC units. She was wandering around, sharing the same sort of paranoia and, out of kindness and concern for her safety, we called the police. They seemed to handle the situation in an effective manner.

Is this a common delusion . . . ?
(Or are they really onto something?)
[insert Theremin arpeggio]

This really seems like its getting into communist/totalitarian territory to want to lock up anybody with any sort of delision, which could go as far as to be anything other than what the government mandates people believe. Who do you want to lock up?

-Pentacostals/Assembly of God?
-Birthers?
-9/11 truthers?
-People who think Obama is a Muslim?
-People who deny global warming?
-People who cling to any conspiracy theory?
-People who believe homosexuality can be changed?
-Super-intelligent people who come across as eccentric and outside the norm?

Help should be much easier to get for people who need it. It's ridiculous how difficult and expensive it is to get quality counseling in this country. We can't lock people up who have shown no sign of being a danger to others or themselves. Where would we put everyone? We would have to initiate a massive prison-building program to build enough prisons to hold everyone outside the norm of what's considered rational thinking.

If members of the Westboro "Baptist" Hate Coven (a.k.a. Phelps' Folly) in Topeka were on your list, I would have to give a grudgingly qualified, "maybe" . . .

I'm not saying they should be locked in a prison like a criminal serving time for a crime. I am saying if they display signs of being mentally unstable they should be put in a mental hospital where they can get the care and safety they need. Letting the mentally ill sleeping in a park and eat out of the trash can is not helping them. Asking a crazy person to know what is their own best interest isn't possible - they don't know what is in their own best interest. That is what makes them dangerous. Of course, most crazy people don't even know they have a problem so it would take a 3rd party (family member, spouse, or judge) to make the decision to have them institutionalized.

And yes, we have closed the vast majority of out state mental hospitals due to budget cuts starting in the early '70s so we would have to build new facilities. All closing them in the first place seems to have done is create more problems than the budget concerns were.

If members of the Westboro "Baptist" Hate Coven (a.k.a. Phelps' Folly) in Topeka were on your list, I would have to give a grudgingly, qualified, "maybe" . . .

I didn't think about them. I can see the merit in locking them up. I don't know how they've made it this long to be honest.

I didn't think about them. I can see the merit in locking them up. I don't know how they've made it this long to be honest.

Well . . . I guess we should both be expecting the arrival of the guys in the white jackets riding on those black helicopters.
Obviously we are both against Freedom of Speech and Assembly which means we are against The Constitution and we have to be crazy to be against The Constitution . . .

Hope we enjoy basket-weaving . . .

No doubt the risk for government abuse is there but we can't tolerate crazy people on the streets either. As for religious people hearing God - those people are crazy and should be put in a sanitarium for awhile. God is not talking to people. The bible is pretty clear on that subject. I know someone who says God talked to him in his closet. I told him God wasn't talking to him and he got a little angry about that. I suspect he is using steroids which would explain why he is hearing voices.


Moses, Abraham, and Noah - among others - would stridently disagree with you.

This really seems like its getting into communist/totalitarian territory to want to lock up anybody with any sort of delision, which could go as far as to be anything other than what the government mandates people believe. Who do you want to lock up?

-Pentacostals/Assembly of God?
-Birthers?
-9/11 truthers?
-People who think Obama is a Muslim?
-People who deny global warming?
-People who cling to any conspiracy theory?
-People who believe homosexuality can be changed?
-Super-intelligent people who come across as eccentric and outside the norm?

Help should be much easier to get for people who need it. It's ridiculous how difficult and expensive it is to get quality counseling in this country. We can't lock people up who have shown no sign of being a danger to others or themselves. Where would we put everyone? We would have to initiate a massive prison-building program to build enough prisons to hold everyone outside the norm of what's considered rational thinking.

The problem, however, is that certain elements of society have deemed themselves to be the perpetual and sole occupant of the Seat Of Socially Moral High Ground, and if you don't ascribe to their mantra, they think you should be locked up - because they think its for your own protection. It's all about the broader agenda of the government guiding and controlling what you should say, do, think, believe, and serving as the source of the benefits of society.

JTF's attitude on this is not unique. There are plenty of folks - some of whom have posted on this board - that have conveyed similar notions that anyone claiming communication with God should be locked up. Doesn't matter if that leadership has led to anything of beauty or to the benefit of anyone, the "communication" business alone is reason enough. Even the notion of religious affiliation is enough for some.

Yeah, that should scare the garbage out of you.

If you don't want to believe, fine. But when someone can say "you believe, therefore you should be locked up," without the slightest prior indication of committing a crime or even being the slightest danger to society, that's a problem. To heck with those things called rights or civil liberties.

Mental health is expensive and I believe a lot of the same people who think the mentally ill should be locked up don't want to pay for their medical treatment. And then, where precisely do you draw the line on who should be locked up? Who makes those decisions? People who are hearing voices can be helped greatly with drug therapy, but how do you ensure they take their medications? And if you put them in a situation where they get their medications, some become amazingly functional and lucid, especially if they haven't been self medicating for years with drugs and alcohol.

I bet though, if we stopped locking people up for most victimless crimes, we'd have a lot more money to spend on treatment of the mentally ill. Trouble is, under those cirmstances, a bunch of people would rather have a tax cut. You frequently get what you pay for.

The problem, however, is that certain elements of society have deemed themselves to be the perpetual and sole occupant of the Seat Of Socially Moral High Ground, and if you don't ascribe to their mantra, they think you should be locked up - because they think its for your own protection. It's all about the broader agenda of the government guiding and controlling what you should say, do, think, believe, and serving as the source of the benefits of society.

JTF's attitude on this is not unique. There are plenty of folks - some of whom have posted on this board - that have conveyed similar notions that anyone claiming communication with God should be locked up. Doesn't matter if that leadership has led to anything of beauty or to the benefit of anyone, the "communication" business alone is reason enough. Even the notion of religious affiliation is enough for some.

Yeah, that should scare the garbage out of you.

If you don't want to believe, fine. But when someone can say "you believe, therefore you should be locked up," without the slightest prior indication of committing a crime or even being the slightest danger to society, that's a problem. To heck with those things called rights or civil liberties.

This.

The goal of an sort of progressive/curative mental assistance will be someone's return to public/free life. So even when folks are committed, the hope is that they'll be free. However, I know from personal experience in friends that there are always relapses, and that medications quit working over time (they have to regularly change/rotate medications for folks with mental disorders).

If you look into the history of mental illness and treatment in this country, you can be shocked. Many folks blame financial causes as the reason that so many mentally ill people were put on the streets in the late 70's/early 80's but the fact of the matter is that the massive closing of facilities was driven by the revelations of abuse, and the type of black holes the asylum system was. People were committed against their will for all sorts of reasons, with no hope of ever seeing freedom again.

Residential mental health treatment (except in the rare/extreme cases) is meant to be transitory and temporary. The goal should ALWAYS be to get folks back to living independently and freely, whenever possible. Otherwise, why would someone seek help? The biggest thing that needs to change is the social stigma is getting mental health care. The overwhelming majority of folks will benefit from some sort of counselling or mental health services in their life, yet it's still seen/treated as something to be ashamed of. Look at this thread. Just seeing comments here, would you want to be open about asking for help or admitting a problem?

Lowering the costs, better support systems, better access, and social acceptance are all critical in making the needed changes.

Moses, Abraham, and Noah - among others - would stridently disagree with you.

Okay, let me rephrase that. God isn't talking to people now. When people say God spoke to them I suspect what they are really saying is that they had a enlightening revelation (an epiphany if you will) of what they should or should not be doing - as in - God told me to help the poor. Yes he did, in the Bible in multiple places. He didn't tell you in your living room during Final Jeopardy. It is entirely possible though that you had the epiphany about how to help the poor while watching Final Jeopardy in your living room.

Here is the intro to a "Devotional" that I put together back in February of '98.
I think it points up a facet of human behavior—related to the thread topic—that has changed a LOT since then.

(Please feel free to click the AudioVisual link, below, to provide background music by which to read what follows)

=====

Perception is NOT Reality . . .

“Hey Mr. C. . . . Check it out,” the student said as I climbed back into the truck.

I had brought the young man into Guthrie to put the finishing touches on a community service project on which we had been working. I left him in the company truck while I went into an office to pick up a key. He was referring to a man squatting next to a retaining wall near the place we had parked: A person having what seemed to be an animated conversation with someone . . . someone who wasn’t there.

“I’ve been watching him since you left,” my protégé commented, indicating with a roll of the eyes and a finger twirled at the temple that he sensed that there was something, shall we say . . . “out of the ordinary” about the person he had been observing.

Having previously encountered the individual whom he indicated, I responded, “Yeah . . . Well . . . He’s just a little more into his own universe that the rest of us.” I backed out of the parking space and we went on about our business . . . leaving the stranger still talking and gesturing to the companion or companions only he could see.

“Perception” . . . Our personal picture of the universe in which we exist . . . Is an interesting, wonderful and sometimes mysterious thing. Each of us has a unique vision of the world: How it is . . . How it could or should be.

No two perceptual frameworks are exactly the same. No single perceptual framework is perfect or complete. Of course, to a large extent, people do share a “common vision” regarding “common things.” Yet, perception in certain areas can be altered and hopefully enhanced through instruction, training and experience.

==========
(End of snippet, back in "real time") . . .

Today, many years later, you see people all over the place wandering or driving around, apparently having animated conversations with someone who isn't there. Except, in "reality" they are actually plugged into The Hive Mind via a virtual, electronic umbilical cord, on a hands-free cell phone . . . and we think nothing of it!

Perhaps "eccentric" is best defined by the circles in which one operates?
sTFVMMCwsss

"There are none sane in this world except me and thee.
And sometimes I wonder about thee . . ."
~Antique, Eccentric, Quaker Saying

(call me crazy, but i think any band featuring a pedal steel guitar is cool. almost as cool as Gary Larson's "Far Side" cartoons.=)

I remember a comedian saying that thanks to Bluetooth headsets and gesture-operated tablets/smartphones it was getting harder to tell who the crazy people are.

I remember a comedian saying that thanks to Bluetooth headsets and gesture-operated tablets/smartphones it was getting harder to tell who the crazy people are.

Waaay, back in 99, I was on a business trip in DC. I was shopping for a new tie, while talking on hands free to my assistant who was prepping me for the meeting. At one point, and officer came up to me to see if I was alright. Evidently, the staff at the store had called the police for the "crazy" guy "talking to himself".

So let me ask this. While in Philadelphia last month we were sitting outside a museum. A guy matching every image of a homeless person comes along and starts 'boxing' a plant. After he threw a few punches at it he walked over and started 'bobbing and weaving' with a tree. He then went and started the 'rope and dope' act with a fire hydrant. If not for having my wife and kids with me it might have been funny - but I don't know if my 12 year old son looks like a crape myrtle to him or not, and we weren't the only people with kids in the area. Based solely on that action should this person be allowed to freely walk the streets of Center City Philadelphia or not. I vote for 'not'.

Okay, let me rephrase that. God isn't talking to people now.

John 10:27: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."


When people say God spoke to them I suspect what they are really saying is that they had a enlightening revelation (an epiphany if you will) of what they should or should not be doing - as in - God told me to help the poor. Yes he did, in the Bible in multiple places. He didn't tell you in your living room during Final Jeopardy. It is entirely possible though that you had the epiphany about how to help the poor while watching Final Jeopardy in your living room.

Really? Of all the cries of arrogance I've heard tossed toward Christians for claiming a relationship with Christ and having at least some understanding of God's will, I have to say this is one of the biggest ones I've heard going the other way - that someone presumes to know that God could not possibly have spoken to someone at a given point in time.

You might read or at least research someone like Corrie Ten Boom, a Nazi holocaust survivor, who said she "never felt God's love" so deeply as when in a prison camp, embracing the hands of one of her captors, as she prayed for the ability to forgive him.

Nah, the Power of the Trebek is drastically more formidable, I guess.

Have you heard God speak to you SoonerDave?

You know - never mind. Just for the sake of the debate lets say that anyone hearing the voice of God spoken directly to them by God is not by definition crazy. What about people hearing other voices? Can we call them mentally ill? If I hear my dead Uncle Chester telling me to throw knives at kids in the park would that make me crazy (especially since I don't have a dead Uncle Chester)?

If you talk to god, you are praying; if god talks to you, you have schizophrenia. ~~ Szasz

Have you heard God speak to you SoonerDave?

You know - never mind. Just for the sake of the debate lets say that anyone hearing the voice of God spoken directly to them by God is not by definition crazy. What about people hearing other voices? Can we call them mentally ill? If I hear my dead Uncle Chester telling me to throw knives at kids in the park would that make me crazy (especially since I don't have dead Uncle Chester)?

JTF, I'll answer anyway.

Yes, I have.

I was sitting in a barbershop, minding my own business waiting for a haircut one day. The day was unremarkable.

Something, and I cannot tell you what, except perhaps the fact that the barbershop was directly across the street from a church, got me to thinking about God and Christ. And as vividly as I can remember anything, I remember being asked "Who do you say I am?". And it was repeated.

I have no question in my heart or mind God was calling me to make a decision about Christ.

"He is my Savior and my Lord." was my only possible reply.

I am a Christian JTF, not by my own words, or because I'm such a great guy, just a sinner saved by grace.

IF that makes me crazy in the eyes of some, or you, there's nothing I can do about it.

I remember a comedian saying that thanks to Bluetooth headsets and gesture-operated tablets/smartphones it was getting harder to tell who the crazy people are.

As you may already know, for years I have referred to the users of those devices as The Proto-Borg.
I think it was the little, blinking, blue light that freaked me out a bit when I first saw it.
I know . . . i know . . . That's Crazy Talk . . . today, i pay it no mind.
except, of course, on those rare occasions when i wonder:
how come phones are getting "Smarter" and people are getting dumber?.

1 Kings 19:11-13 (King James Version)

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

personally, i think that this is just as true today as it was when it happened.
even if the nuts in the "school of higher criticism" wants to nit-pick the issue of whether "'still small' voice" actually meant "still" in the sense of "not moving" or "not getting bigger". of course, i used to be a big J. Vernon McGee student so . . . wow. come to think of it, i'm STILL a J. Verson McGee student . . .

If you talk to god, you are praying; if god talks to you, you have schizophrenia. ~~ Szasz

I'd probably say something like that too . . . If I stumbled through life saddled with the name of an Assyrian Demongod.
So . . . What's the guy's first name? Dagon? Sigmund? Oscarwilde? Datazzhole? =)

So let me ask this. While in Philadelphia last month we were sitting outside a museum. A guy matching every image of a homeless person comes along and starts 'boxing' a plant. After he threw a few punches at it he walked over and started 'bobbing and weaving' with a tree. He then went and started the 'rope and dope' act with a fire hydrant. If not for having my wife and kids with me it might have been funny - but I don't know if my 12 year old son looks like a crape myrtle to him or not, and we weren't the only people with kids in the area. Based solely on that action should this person be allowed to freely walk the streets of Center City Philadelphia or not. I vote for 'not'.Did he look like Sylvester Stallone?

Did he look like Sylvester Stallone?

No, but he did look like he was a boxer at one time. He had pretty good moves. My wife and I both thought that he had probably taken too many hits to the head. Of course, that is what made it even more dangerous because he was strong enough and had the boxing knowledge to kill someone with his bare hands, even if the victim tried to fight back.

Jim K: There would have been a couple of exclamation points next to the "Like" ^^ if that feature was available.

Just to lighten it up a bit . . .
b7JpxavO9NE

THEY should have thrown a net over the entire crowd and hauled them away to the nearest PsychoGulag in the Archipelago.
Did you notice how they--not THE THEY, but they, the nuts and flakes comprising the crowd--cheered at the words, "crazy" and "insane"?
Did you see how few of them were texting or talking on phones during the performance?

JTF, I'll answer anyway.

Yes, I have.

I was sitting in a barbershop, minding my own business waiting for a haircut one day. The day was unremarkable.

Something, and I cannot tell you what, except perhaps the fact that the barbershop was directly across the street from a church, got me to thinking about God and Christ. And as vividly as I can remember anything, I remember being asked "Who do you say I am?". And it was repeated.

I have no question in my heart or mind God was calling me to make a decision about Christ.

"He is my Savior and my Lord." was my only possible reply.

I am a Christian JTF, not by my own words, or because I'm such a great guy, just a sinner saved by grace.

IF that makes me crazy in the eyes of some, or you, there's nothing I can do about it.

As much as I would love to talk to you about your conversation, let's just rule out religious dialogue as a sign of mental instability. What about my Uncle Chester telling me to throw knives at kids in the park. Would that put me over in the 'crazy' column?

You know, let me just cut to the chase. Do you SoonerDave think there are mentally ill people in the world?

Moses, Abraham, and Noah - among others - would stridently disagree with you.

Oral Roberts

Back to the original topic: It wasn't budget problems, or even the revelation of horrible asylum conditions in such books and movies as "The Snake Pit" that caused most of the "mental cases" to be turned out on the streets. It was, in fact, the same judicial/legal mentality that has given us such illogical policies as "zero tolerance" in schools and caused kindergarteners to be expelled for pointing a finger at another student as if it were a gun.

Starting in the mid-50s, and gaining ground through the 70s and 80s, courts began holding that keeping the mentally ill confined to treatment centers was in violation of their civil rights. The mantra was "mainstreaming" and the general belief was that, like Professor Harold Hill in "The Music Man", the desired result (return to society's mainstream in this case) could be achieved by simply thinking the correct thoughts...

The result should have been predictable by anyone NOT themselves in need of mental assistance -- but as soon as the most severe schizophrenics were turned out of the places where their medication was assured, the situation began going down that road paved with good intentions...

The elephant in the room, of course, is that one size CANNOT fit all; each and every one of us is a mental case, even those who are 100 percent rational and functional. "Mental illness," just like physical illness, covers a continuum from "unnoticeably small" to "totally impaired" but all people have their individual quirks, that others may interpret as mental problems.

In fact, the definition of "sanity" may even depend on specific conditions and vary from time to time. I met an artillery captain in Korea who freely admitted that he got his greatest pleasure from killing people. He was on his second tour at the time, having been seriously wounded on his first -- and having a fist-sized hole in his back where the bullet had torn away muscle that never grew back. And the day after the shooting stopped in 1953, he applied for transfer to the advisory group in Viet Nam. His solution to his love of killing was to stay in the military and on the front lines, where killing the enemy was a good thing to do.

Most folk respond to my recollection of him with "The man was insane." On the contrary, I telieve he was one of the sanest people I ever met, since he recognized his inner drives and went to great lengths to channel them into socially acceptable areas. Had he returned to civilian life, then yes, he would have been insane -- and probably would have become notorious as a serial killer.

Is there an answer to the problem of the homeless? Not really, not in the sense that we can apply any sort of "one size fits all" bandage and magically make everything right for them. We have to view them as individuals, not as a group, and do what we can to meet the needs of each one of them. For some, it may be simply providing shelter and a chance to make one's own way in life. For others, it may mean providing medication and treatment. And for a few who are so far out of touch with what the rest of us call reality that they pose dangers to themselves and others, it may require confinement. Determing such needs on an individual basis would tax the wisdom of Solomon (Sulemain?) himself -- but we need to address it, and do so yesterday if not sooner!

Do you SoonerDave think there are mentally ill people in the world?

Absolutely.

Thank Jim. That is exactly what I would like to talk about. We need family members to look out for the best interest of these people without having to take on the financial burden of doing something. It was only last month a mentally ill man killed a family of 4 in OKC. I have to think that this family would still be alive today if they could have had their relative institutionalized for everyone's safety. Not only are the people dead but this person has to live the rest of his life knowing he killed his sisters, a child, and his mother.

http://kfor.com/2013/08/15/three-women-infant-found-dead-in-south-okc-home-suspect-in-custody/


Neighbors say they didn’t know the family well, but they had frequently seen Daniel Green walking the street. They say he often talked to himself or spoke to them about previous lives.

...

Megan also knew the suspect. However, she was shocked to find out he was the one arrested for the crime.

Megan said, “I didn’t think he’d ever do something like that.”

Absolutely.

What should we do with them?

It just dawned on me that all of this may have something to do with explaining why Vinita, Oklahoma--to this very day--has only one gas station.

Say! . . . Maybe Aubrey McC saw a future need for housing/ending homelessness/providing treatment and that is why The Campus on Western . . .
(nah. scratch that idea. nevermind.)

It just dawned on me that all of this may have something to do with explaining why Vinita, Oklahoma--to this very day--has only one gas station.

Say! . . . Maybe Aubrey McC saw a future need for housing/ending homelessness/providing treatment and that is why The Campus on Western . . .
(nah. scratch that idea. nevermind.)

It has three that I know of.

I can see the merit in locking them up. I don't know how they've made it this long to be honest.

See the merit? So freedoms are only freedoms if one agrees with the content? I can only find one redeeming thing about Westboro folk. In my own opinion they do seem to be stellar at being bad examples of how to conduct oneself in public. But they have the right to expression and assembly, however wrong headed I may feel their views are. Doesn't mean I have to stand across the barrier and listen, or holla back.

It has three that I know of.

Are you sure? . . .
Are you sure you aren't a hitchhiker by the Interstate about whom the signs up there used to warn us drivers by? =)

Doesn't mean I have to stand across the barrier and listen, or holla back.

Doesn't mean that you don't have to neither (nor vice-versa). . . doesn't it? =)

[Old Joke Ending:
A: Why don't you take one lug nut off each of the other three wheels and refasten that one?
B: Wow. That's really smart. What the heck are you doing on that side of the fence?
A: I'm in here for being crazy . . . Not stupid.]

Are you sure? . . .
Are you sure you aren't a hitchhiker by the Interstate about which the signs up there used to warn us drivers by? =)

You never know

I can't think of a single delusion that I don't find menacing...

JTF's taco bell lady was hardly menacing. Came across a local version, never knew his name, always just referred to him as Sarge. Back when I was in classes, and for some time after while reading more than writing, it was common for me to study at night at what was then the Kettle on W Main. Could eat if I wanted without waking my lovely or the babies. Didn't have to muss with coffeepots, etc.

Sarge would wander in from time to time. By all outward appearances, Sarge was alone. But it never took long for someone new to realize that, at least for Sarge, his entourage numbered three. His reaction to the 'others' was always distinct. He didn't merely ramble, as some thought, he truly seemed engaged with the others, whether we saw them or not. So far as I know, Sarge never hurt anyone, except perhaps himself. i do not imagine he was at all loyal to whatever medication regimen he was supposed to be following.

I can think of many such situations I would not consider menacing at all. I can think of far more completely sane situations I would consider significantly more menacing.

But, I probably ought to also acknowledge I've known a lot of people both personally and professionally whose walks through life were somewhat different than the stereotypical strolls of the vast majority of folk.

If we were to start locking folks away at a far greater rate than it used today ... since no one wants govt. to spend what they already spend, then it has to come at the expense of something else. So, what do we do without to fund the meaningful care, medication and therapy of the ill? Or, for those who might hold a more callous view, to fund the minimally necessary expense in order to warehouse them folk what be different, cause after all, being different, that's bad.

If we were to start locking folks away at a far greater rate than it used today ... since no one wants govt. to spend what they already spend, then it has to come at the expense of something else. So, what do we do without to fund the meaningful care, medication and therapy of the ill? Or, for those who might hold a more callous view, to fund the minimally necessary expense in order to warehouse them folk what be different, cause after all, being different, that's bad.

Oklahoma County would probably be able to forsake a new jail if the mentally ill were treated in a hospital, instead of being locked up for the "crime" of being ill.

This far into the thread and nobody has mentioned that many of the psychotropic drugs only cause more havoc. The idea of "treatment" these days is a prescription. For many, that prescription becomes a time bomb.

This far into the thread and nobody has mentioned that many of the psychotropic drugs only cause more havoc. The idea of "treatment" these days is a prescription. For many, that prescription becomes a time bomb.

You are way ahead of us. We are still trying to figure out of there is even a consensus that a public solution should be involved at all.

Not true JTF. We presently do lock away dangerous folk. True, we do not lock away tree boxers in mass. Of course, we don't lock away bank robbers when they are at the Wal mart register buying note pads and pen the night, week, month before the heist. We're funny like that. And yes, sometimes it means someone who many know is a bit off does kill his family. Definitely tragic. But was he doing anything the six hours before, a day before, a month before, that indicated clear danger to self or others?

I've had hot under the collar gotta vent days. I know I wouldn't want someone making a lasting decision on my mental status based on a 10-20 minute jag when enough is enough of certain piles of bullfeathers.

I meant, we are trying to determine if there is an OKCTalk consensus. However, it seems most of our mental healthcare occurs after a violent act with people dead and neighbors saying, "He talked to himself but we didn't think he was dangerous."

I am a little confused by your last statement. Do you think I am suggesting that if someone drops a TV and yell's out "Crap, I can't believe I just did that" that they should be locked away forever never to hear from friends of family again - North Korea style?

On the other hand, this guy shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets. He needs help even if he doesn't know he needs help.

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I think we can start by making places for the mentally ill much, much nicer.
We have beautiful homes and retirement communities for the elderly. They are little villages (sorry, had to use the word in here somewhere).
I'd fully support paying a small tax to build and maintain very nice, respectful facilities that are large enough to give people a sense of a life and home.

Massachusetts was way ahead of the curve on this one. They had a place, such as the one you may be describing, back in the early 50's. I think it was called "Shutter Island".

Okay, I'll bite. Who gets to determine that someone is "mentally ill" and what is the criteria? Who determines how restricted they are to be? Who determines when they are well, or all they always treated at the government's expense? Are there ghettos for these people? Institutions? Do we track them in society? and on, and on and on.

This is a highly complex and difficult problem for society. It isn't the obvious problems that are the issue, it is in the grey areas.

Okay, I'll bite. Who gets to determine that someone is "mentally ill" and what is the criteria? Who determines how restricted they are to be? Who determines when they are well, or all they always treated at the government's expense? Are there ghettos for these people? Institutions? Do we track them in society? and on, and on and on.

This is a highly complex and difficult problem for society. It isn't the obvious problems that are the issue, it is in the grey areas.

There are some obvious problems that are very much not addressed.

Watched the clip. When it was over watched the one toward the bottom center of the thumbnails of the homeless singer. Decent vocals.

As to the guy in the blue jacket, maybe he's a danger. Maybe he watched too many repeats of Matrix Reloaded and the James Woods ooh, piece of candy skit on Family Guy. Don't know, but I'd want more than that tape to authorize an EOD on him. And no, I wasn't comparing a 2-3 sec oh crap moment to a 20+ minute jag of anger. Not sure if you meant to or not, but that's not what I referenced, not even close.

I'm quite skeptical on what one sees/hears ever being adequate on its own. I once worked with a very talented individual. However, this coworker was prone from time to time to get in some of the biggest arguments I've ever heard ... loud, booming, scare small children and squirrels in nearby trees type arguments. So far as I recall, every one I heard involved my coworker and an invisible opponent. Never asked who it was. Never worried my coworker would ever exit the office and take five or fifty of us out. Eccentric perhaps, but definitely a first rate mind all the same.

cannabis is the cure.....

cannabis may or may not be a cure, but rumor has it it's absolutely what cues many what's for dinner discussions

cannabis is the cure.....
i'm not so sure about that . . . I think the guy in the last vidclip (at Post #52) was picking up imaginary roaches.
and I don't mean the kind with six legs.

Okay, I'll bite. Who gets to determine that someone is "mentally ill" and what is the criteria? Who determines how restricted they are to be? Who determines when they are well, or all they always treated at the government's expense? Are there ghettos for these people? Institutions? Do we track them in society? and on, and on and on.

This is a highly complex and difficult problem for society. It isn't the obvious problems that are the issue, it is in the grey areas.

I guess it would be the same doctors who are currently prescribing the medication these people are supposed to be taking. I imagine family members would consult with a doctor (or doctors) who would observe the individual to determine their mental state. This could be over a period of days or even weeks. If the family and doctor determine the person is mentally unstable they would have the person committed to a mental hospital at government expense. In this facility the patient would either live out the rest of their life in what ever level of 'care' was necessary or until they achieved some level of sanity that deemed them capable of returning to mainstream society. If the person is homeless and has no known relatives a panel of court appointed psychiatrists would evaluate the individual and decide the course of action (assuming the individual is unfit to speak for themselves before a judge).

The man who killed 12 people yesterday had already been diagnosed with a mental illness and his family was aware of it. He should have been placed in a hospital where he could have been receiving the treatment he required. When someone gets diagnose with TB we don't just let them walk out of the hospital and get on a plane.

This article is an excerpt from an article on how the mentally ill in Norway are treated. Of course Norway like every other industrialized country has universal healthcare but also the destigmatation of mental illness is mentioned. I think the stigmas in this country of mental illness as well as most insurance companies giving short shrift to care contribute to the debate of how to address the problem.

Schizophrenia Daily News Blog: How Mentally Ill in Norway are Treated (http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/002486.html)