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catch22
07-13-2013, 03:00 PM
This is more of a rant...

Was flying in last night from Chicago. There were a lot of foreigners coming to OKC for the first time. (Asian and Middle East) I couldn't help hear the lady behind me...

"Yeah, OKC is a small city. Mostly agricultural. Like cows, not goat or sheep. It's not a real pretty town, very rural. Including what we call the suburbs, there are around 450,000 people that live here. Downtown doesn't have people, it's not like Chicago. Most of the better restaurants are on the north side in Edmond or in Norman. Downtown is mostly just business. There are a few tall buildings, but not many. A few energy companies are here, but most of our economy is agriculture. As far as sports go we really only have football, like American football, kind of like rugby, and we also have a basketball team."

This went on for 20 or 30 minutes and I could not believe my ears. I had to hold every grain in my body back from turning around and saying something.

I sincerely hope the average OKC resident knows more about this city than this lady. If not we have a local perception problem, not a national one.

kevinpate
07-13-2013, 03:06 PM
... If not we have a local perception problem, not a national one.

No more calls, this one's a winner.
Truth is, there are far more gents and ladies like your lady on the plane than there are up to date folks like Sid, betts, and <insert any one of numerous OKCTalkers here>

bchris02
07-13-2013, 03:54 PM
This is the kind of thing I would expect somebody from the coast to say about OKC who has never been here and just going off a stereotype. I can't believe anyone who lives here would misrepresent it like that.

kevinpate
07-13-2013, 03:59 PM
This is the kind of thing I would expect somebody from the coast to say about OKC who has never been here and just going off a stereotype. I can't believe anyone who lives here would misrepresent it like that.

In her mind she may well believe she was spot on in her points. Plop yourself down in some never been trendy and won't ever be trendy spot in town. Get a soda or a simple black coffee and then sit back and listen. There are many throughout the metro that would think she was one smart cookie.

catch22
07-13-2013, 04:10 PM
The man asked her how long she had lived here, she said 10 years. 10 years is plenty time to get up to speed...especially since the last ten have been the most exciting since the 1890s

Roger S
07-13-2013, 04:26 PM
The man asked her how long she had lived here, she said 10 years. 10 years is plenty time to get up to speed...especially since the last ten have been the most exciting since the 1890s

I don't know... I have friends who have lived their entire lives here and can't find their way across town.

bchris02
07-13-2013, 05:40 PM
I don't know... I have friends who have lived their entire lives here and can't find their way across town.

A lot of people in OKC live in their own bubbles. I know a lot of people in Edmond who never, ever go to downtown OKC.

mcca7596
07-13-2013, 05:45 PM
I will say... one good aspect of a suburban viewpoint is that from a car you have a larger sense of surroundings as opposed to being on foot, albeit not as intimate.

Rover
07-13-2013, 06:28 PM
This is just one more thread to try to say how stupid and backward suburbanites are. But even if these gross caricatures are even close to reality, it reminds me of all the urban experts on this site who profess to know all about cities and have virtually no experience outside of OKC or Oklahoma, or at most, the US. LOL. What is the point of this thread?

If your friends are so stupid and myopic, you either need to change friends or you are part of their club. Most of the people I know in OKC are cultured, not only know about OKC but invest in it, run businesses in it, and finance a lot of this progress, all the while living in those awful suburbs. This incessant suburbanite bashing is just stupid. Those that think living in downtown automatically makes them worldly probably have no clue what worldly is.

CuatrodeMayo
07-13-2013, 06:31 PM
Did you even read the OP?

OKCisOK4me
07-13-2013, 06:34 PM
I'd be on a no-fly list after hearing her say that, had I been you.

bluedogok
07-13-2013, 07:30 PM
This is the kind of thing I would expect somebody from the coast to say about OKC who has never been here and just going off a stereotype. I can't believe anyone who lives here would misrepresent it like that.
I haven't lived in OKC for 10 years and know more about what is going on there through this site, reading news, family and friends than a lot of people who have lived there their whole life. Some people just choose to be ignorant of their surroundings.


A lot of people in OKC live in their own bubbles. I know a lot of people in Edmond who never, ever go to downtown OKC.It isn't just OKC, there are a whole bunch of people that I know in Austin who never seem to get out of their bubble in Austin. They seem to think anything that requires "crossing the river" (Colorado River/Town Lake/Lady Bird Lake) requires planning a trip and these weren't "old people", these were 20-30 somethings. If it doesn't happen in their bubble or in a food/entertainment district they don't know anything about it. They might venture down to New Braunfels to go tubing (mainly to drink) but not much more than that. They were shocked that I rode all over the Hill Country and told them about places they had no idea existed. Seemed to me the "transplants" got out of town and explored more than the locals.

catch22
07-13-2013, 07:32 PM
This is just one more thread to try to say how stupid and backward suburbanites are. But even if these gross caricatures are even close to reality, it reminds me of all the urban experts on this site who profess to know all about cities and have virtually no experience outside of OKC or Oklahoma, or at most, the US. LOL. What is the point of this thread?

If your friends are so stupid and myopic, you either need to change friends or you are part of their club. Most of the people I know in OKC are cultured, not only know about OKC but invest in it, run businesses in it, and finance a lot of this progress, all the while living in those awful suburbs. This incessant suburbanite bashing is just stupid. Those that think living in downtown automatically makes them worldly probably have no clue what worldly is.

Where did anyone even mention suburbs? She got the entire city wrong, not just downtown.....

flintysooner
07-13-2013, 07:38 PM
Where did anyone even mention suburbs? She got the entire city wrong, not just downtown.....
Post #8.

okcpulse
07-13-2013, 11:19 PM
She tanked hard core by the second sentence. Look, not everyone has to like Oklahoma City. That is okay. It is their opinion, their right. But it is not acceptable for any reason whatsoever to spread misinformation. She needs to be put under a gag order. Not only did she get the employment base wrong, she threw the most lively core of Oklahoma City - all of its central city districts - under the bus.

Wow. I will not ever allow my children to undertake such a disservice.

Bellaboo
07-14-2013, 10:00 AM
Ha, same thing happened to me a few years back. A woman and her son, probably 9 or 10 years old were 1 row in front of me on the taxi way getting ready to take off at WRWA. The boy asked his mom, 'are those oil wells ?' Her reply was, 'Oh no, those can't be oil wells'. I leaned forward kind of between the seats and told them, no, he's right, those are producing wells and the moving part is called a pump jack, and these wells were drilled in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 thousand feet down.....she said, well we're from Virginia and I didn't think they would put them on an airport...I said well, this just happens to be where the oil is.

ErnestA
07-14-2013, 11:39 AM
Coming down on people who don’t know better, especially the suburbanites, isn’t the way to go. Residents have their own lives to lead, and folks being parochial in their cityview isn’t unique to OKC. Most people only go to where they need to go, and their interests may not require travelling to other parts of town. Lambasting the non- and ill-informed only heightens the perception of urbanists as elitists.

Not everybody in any city will be a civic booster. Most people experience places only as a consumer, not as something to cultivate. Instead, it’s up to the city government, local media, image makers (chamber and PR folks), businesses, and concerned citizens to introduce people to the city they live in. Through personal intelligence, this forum and other sites on the internet, this group on OKCTalk is much more informed than the average citizen. Not everybody has the time to keep up the way we do.

ErnestA
07-14-2013, 11:46 AM
Another thing: many people who live here are from other cities, especially from the largest ones like Dallas, New York, or LA. Their version of “the city” is based only on those places whose urbanity is much more mature than OKC’s. These people who expect every place to be like those cities are just as parochial as folks here who’ve never left Edmond.

Pete
07-14-2013, 11:46 AM
Haha... Revenge of the well-informed!!

I experienced something very similar on a flight into OKC where a blow-hard was trying to impress the flight attendants by running down the City.

He was right across the aisle from me and said something like, "Yeah, there is only like a million people in the whole state. Not much to do here... Yadda, yadda."

I could barely control myself as I thought, "Bud, you just spouted off on the wrong subject in the presence of the wrong guy." And of course, I proceeded to set the record straight with the latest populations stats, growth trends, some of the many Top 10 lists, info. about downtown development and what was coming, some of the better new restaurants, etc.

Shut him completely up and seemed to impress everyone else (the info., not me).


Testify, OKCTalk!!!

Spread the word across the land to those local and elsewhere... I assure you that everyone that knows me here in California knows all about OKC.

bradh
07-14-2013, 12:59 PM
Instead, it’s up to the city government, local media, image makers (chamber and PR folks), businesses, and concerned citizens to introduce people to the city they live in. Through personal intelligence, this forum and other sites on the internet, this group on OKCTalk is much more informed than the average citizen. Not everybody has the time to keep up the way we do.


They do that, trust me. Without the efforts of many in those groups you mentioned, especially the "evil" chamber as many of you on here discuss, the image would be worse.

ErnestA
07-14-2013, 01:40 PM
They do that, trust me. Without the efforts of many in those groups you mentioned, especially the "evil" chamber as many of you on here discuss, the image would be worse.

I know they do, thankfully. My point is that we can't expect all residents to keep up with city developments. I love what the chamber's done with their e-magazines and videos, but as others have said here, they almost do it too well -- giving some locals the impression that OKC is building at an exceptional rate for the country, when as most of us know, other downtowns are flourishing and busier than ours. That's why I'm glad we have that "OKC Not Alone in Downtown Investments" thread. I also cringe when I see almost all of the "high points" of the city shown in those videos. It's the equivalent of a movie trailer showing all the funny moments or dramatic developments. You have to leave room for pleasant discovery.

bradh
07-14-2013, 02:02 PM
It's cool Ernest, I was mostly just reiterating your post for anyone who didn't think so.

HOT ROD
07-15-2013, 03:05 AM
Another thing: many people who live here are from other cities, especially from the largest ones like Dallas, New York, or LA. Their version of “the city” is based only on those places whose urbanity is much more mature than OKC’s. These people who expect every place to be like those cities are just as parochial as folks here who’ve never left Edmond.

I agree with this, and this is why people in the know need to speak up. It doesn't hurt to jump in and correct the misinformation; something ala - I couldn't help but hearing your conversation about OKC; I've lived there for X years and know that OKC has 1.4+ million people in its metro area (and currently under a rapid growth spurt), has an economy based on OIL/Energy, Healthcare, Aerospace, Services, and Government (very little agri actually by comparison not that theres anything wrong with being an agri city), and that OKC has a growing downtown with more skyscrapers on the way (including at least one that will be announced any day now). I would also say that "you can't totally judge a city by these superficial things or by comparison to a world city like Chicago, but instead you should come to OKC with an open mind and you'll probably be shocked that the city is actually quite different than your friend first described it."

HOT ROD
07-15-2013, 03:12 AM
Ernest, in all honesty - what city doesn't highlight its positives in their chamber/moving here films? I don't think you need to be embarrassed that OKC has showpoints now and choses to highlight them in a film. It's not cheesy and believe me there ARE people moving to OKC from other cities who are interested in the WOW factor of OKC. Seattle CONSTANTLY uses the space needle to death and grunge music so why can't OKC use the Oklahoma River and Flaming Lips? Think Seattle didn't highlight the Sonics when they were here? Why is it lame if OKC does? Many, MANY Seattleites are moving to OKC (I personally know of 6 families that moved within the past few months). ...

Again, I think sometimes locals to OKC are the most critical of the city when in fact what the Chamber and other 'boosters' are doing IS what OKC needs to dispel the misinformation and ignorant who for some reason have a strong negative opinion about the city.

dcsooner
07-15-2013, 05:38 AM
(I personally know of 6 families that moved within the past few months). ...1.4+ million people in its metro area
Really. A little skeptical Hot Rod

catch22
07-15-2013, 06:18 AM
we are barely at 1.3. Not yet to 1.4

Just the facts
07-15-2013, 06:55 AM
(I personally know of 6 families that moved within the past few months). ...1.4+ million people in its metro area
Really. A little skeptical Hot Rod

I believe HotRod works for a certain aviation company that is expanding in OKC and moving several hundred jobs here.

warreng88
07-15-2013, 07:20 AM
I have a good friend who has lived in the Oklahoma City metro area for about 15 years now. He is currently an upper level employee at Midfirst. He lives in north Edmond with his wife and two kids. Another one of our friends lives a few miles from him. He works at CHK and his wife works at Devon. I live at 21st and May. I feel like most of our conversations have to do with Edmond development over OKC development. They think I live in the hood, no one wants to live in OKC because everyone of the schools are terrible, the crime rate is really high and everyone who lives here only lives here because they don't have enough money to live in Edmond. I also bring up things like the Oklahoma River development, Deep Deuce, Project 180, Core to Shore, Myriad Gardens, etc. but they (yes, even the one who works next to all of this) think no one enjoys any of these things and it is just a waste of money. The only thing they enjoy is the Thunder games which they go to about twice a year. I think there are some people (yes, I know more) who don't want to learn anything new about development and prefer to live in their happy, safe, little bubble rather than acknowledging that something good is going on near them and they choose not to be a part of it.

OKCTalker
07-15-2013, 07:53 AM
Haha... Revenge of the well-informed!!

I experienced something very similar on a flight into OKC where a blow-hard was trying to impress the flight attendants by running down the City.

He was right across the aisle from me and said something like, "Yeah, there is only like a million people in the whole state. Not much to do here... Yadda, yadda."

I could barely control myself as I thought, "Bud, you just spouted off on the wrong subject in the presence of the wrong guy." And of course, I proceeded to set the record straight with the latest populations stats, growth trends, some of the many Top 10 lists, info. about downtown development and what was coming, some of the better new restaurants, etc.

Shut him completely up and seemed to impress everyone else (the info., not me).


Testify, OKCTalk!!!

Spread the word across the land to those local and elsewhere... I assure you that everyone that knows me here in California knows all about OKC.

I just caught this thread. Like many of you, I've also been "the other guy" sitting on the plane setting the record straight. The best tool, I believe, is to share a few "inside tips" with the visitor so they've got some talking points and recommendations about the "cool places to go." Gives them some street cred about new places like shops in the Plaza District, Peloton, Packard's, and even about KD's double condo deal.

And the "OKC v. Edmond" thing seems to have become what "OKC v. Tulsa" once was. Live where you want, but don't run down another Oklahoman because he lives in a different zip code. That's like running down another university on the basis of your football team preference.

Bellaboo
07-15-2013, 07:55 AM
I believe HotRod works for a certain aviation company that is expanding in OKC and moving several hundred jobs here.

I think he works for Microsoft in Seattle, not totally sure though..

Just the facts
07-15-2013, 08:03 AM
I think he works for Microsoft in Seattle, not totally sure though..

Maybe, at one time he worked for Boeing.

ErnestA
07-15-2013, 11:36 AM
Ernest, in all honesty - what city doesn't highlight its positives in their chamber/moving here films? I don't think you need to be embarrassed that OKC has showpoints now and choses to highlight them in a film. It's not cheesy and believe me there ARE people moving to OKC from other cities who are interested in the WOW factor of OKC. Seattle CONSTANTLY uses the space needle to death and grunge music so why can't OKC use the Oklahoma River and Flaming Lips? Think Seattle didn't highlight the Sonics when they were here? Why is it lame if OKC does? Many, MANY Seattleites are moving to OKC (I personally know of 6 families that moved within the past few months). ...

Again, I think sometimes locals to OKC are the most critical of the city when in fact what the Chamber and other 'boosters' are doing IS what OKC needs to dispel the misinformation and ignorant who for some reason have a strong negative opinion about the city.

Hot Rod, they are terrific videos that show off the region well. I am proud of them. I just think they need to show some restraint and not be so comprehensive about showing the parts and places of the city we are most proud of. It might be debatable that they show all the highlights (especially the older videos that don't show Plaza or 9th Street), but the principle is to get people to come here and then when they get here, be pleasantly surprised that there are more nice places. Just my philosophy.

By the way, I was floater when OKCTalk began and was on the original MAPS forum with you on the Oklahoman website. Nice to trade comments with you again.

hoya
07-15-2013, 12:10 PM
I have a good friend who has lived in the Oklahoma City metro area for about 15 years now. He is currently an upper level employee at Midfirst. He lives in north Edmond with his wife and two kids. Another one of our friends lives a few miles from him. He works at CHK and his wife works at Devon. I live at 21st and May. I feel like most of our conversations have to do with Edmond development over OKC development. They think I live in the hood, no one wants to live in OKC because everyone of the schools are terrible, the crime rate is really high and everyone who lives here only lives here because they don't have enough money to live in Edmond. I also bring up things like the Oklahoma River development, Deep Deuce, Project 180, Core to Shore, Myriad Gardens, etc. but they (yes, even the one who works next to all of this) think no one enjoys any of these things and it is just a waste of money. The only thing they enjoy is the Thunder games which they go to about twice a year. I think there are some people (yes, I know more) who don't want to learn anything new about development and prefer to live in their happy, safe, little bubble rather than acknowledging that something good is going on near them and they choose not to be a part of it.

Some people are total suburbanites through and through. Nothing wrong with that, I was raised in the suburbs and you can have a very high quality of life there. But to ignore the developments going on downtown and think they are a waste of money is just foolish.

Pete
07-15-2013, 12:21 PM
I went to Putnam City in the late 70's (the hey day) and the large majority of my class now lives in far North OKC or Edmond -- that is, if they are still in OK. I know, I keep our class database. :)

While their kids were younger, all they knew or cared about was the schools, soccer/activities and family restaurants.

Well now all their kids are grown, suddenly most of them are very interested in what is happening in the Central City. In fact, I'm planning a class reunion for August and it will be atop Devon Tower; lots of people are staying at the Colcord overnight.

People tend to go through stages where for the most part, young singles care about the city but then there is the child-raising period where almost everyone wants a big yard and good suburban schools. Then they start to come back, both in terms of where they live and where they want to spend their time.


I never, ever fault people for wanting to send their kids to Edmond / Deer Creek / Moore / Norman schools. My parents did the equivalent when I was growing up and I had an incredible educational and social experience. It's where I learned to love the community, after all.

I merely try to educate my friends and classmates on all the great things that are happening "in town" and hope they will re-engage when their priorities shift away from their kids.

And yes, I realize you can raise your kids in the 73102/03/04 but we all have to recognize that will always be a small percentage.

Spartan
07-15-2013, 03:07 PM
This is just one more thread to try to say how stupid and backward suburbanites are. But even if these gross caricatures are even close to reality, it reminds me of all the urban experts on this site who profess to know all about cities and have virtually no experience outside of OKC or Oklahoma, or at most, the US. LOL. What is the point of this thread?

If your friends are so stupid and myopic, you either need to change friends or you are part of their club. Most of the people I know in OKC are cultured, not only know about OKC but invest in it, run businesses in it, and finance a lot of this progress, all the while living in those awful suburbs. This incessant suburbanite bashing is just stupid. Those that think living in downtown automatically makes them worldly probably have no clue what worldly is.

Tell us how you really feel, Rover...

UnFrSaKn
07-15-2013, 04:46 PM
I had my first opportunity to explain what OKC is all about today while me and another guy waited at the Warren Theatre for a movie to start. We were the first two people at the IMAX. He actually started up the conversation because I usually keep to myself. The whole time, I was thinking about what I read on here about the stories of having to dispel misinformation or ignorance about OKC. We talked for about an hour and only the beginning was about the city. He was 49 and did construction and was from Houston. He was only here for that day or two and was headed to Waco afterwards. He had "been all over the country" and never saw such an amazing theater as the Warren. I agreed and told him it was even better after the movie started. I rambled on every little fact I could think of. He flat out, with a straight face asked me "what do people do in Oklahoma City?" To him it seemed that since there "was nothing to do in OKC" that people spend more time building fancy theaters and raising families. I know as well as anyone what's going on downtown and I showed him on my iPad all the growth we're having, all the facts and statistics you would hear on a TravelOK video. He said a lot of things that I'm having a hard time recalling all of it. He said that OKC is "20 years culturally behind" and "reminded me of Houston in the 70's". He said that in a good way and went on about how utterly terrible Houston is and that its full of egotistical self-absorbed people. He hoped that OKC would stay the way it is and never gain the negatives of the city he grew up in. He went on into stuff like how he is a single dad with a child and women who he comes across on the street in Houston give him odd looks are stare at his child or look away because they've "all had abortions and don't want to get married and have kid" and everyone in Houston is like that. It was kinda funny to me but I didn't laugh. He made it seem like Houston would be a sterile empty wasteland in 10-15 years because nobody raises families or has kids there. That's the basics of the conversation early on, then it went into comic book movies and anime stuff. It surprised me he appreciated those things and being a little younger than my parents and another generation.

Spartan
07-15-2013, 04:53 PM
I had my first opportunity to explain what OKC is all about today while me and another guy waited at the Warren Theatre for a movie to start. We were the first two people at the IMAX. He actually started up the conversation because I usually keep to myself. The whole time, I was thinking about what I read on here about the stories of having to dispel misinformation or ignorance about OKC. We talked for about an hour and only the beginning was about the city. He was 49 and did construction and was from Houston. He was only here for that day or two and was headed to Waco afterwards. He had "been all over the country" and never saw such an amazing theater as the Warren. I agreed and told him it was even better after the movie started. I rambled on every little fact I could think of. He flat out, with a straight face asked me "what do people do in Oklahoma City?" To him it seemed that since there "was nothing to do in OKC" that people spend more time building fancy theaters and raising families. I know as well as anyone what's going on downtown and I showed him on my iPad all the growth we're having, all the facts and statistics you would hear on a TravelOK video. He said a lot of things that I'm having a hard time recalling all of it. He said that OKC is "20 years culturally behind" and "reminded me of Houston in the 70's". He said that in a good way and went on about how utterly terrible Houston is and that its full of egotistical self-absorbed people. He hoped that OKC would stay the way it is and never gain the negatives of the city he grew up in. He went on into stuff like how he is a single dad with a child and women who he comes across on the street in Houston give him odd looks are stare at his child or look away because they've "all had abortions and don't want to get married and have kid" and everyone in Houston is like that. It was kinda funny to me but I didn't laugh. He made it seem like Houston would be a sterile empty wasteland in 10-15 years because nobody raises families or has kids there. That's the basics of the conversation early on, then it went into comic book movies and anime stuff. It surprised me he appreciated those things and being a little younger than my parents and another generation.

This is cultural war stuff that is best ignored from a lot of people... I'm sorry, but anyone expecting sympathy for breeding and not getting an abortion is just a loser in my books

kevinpate
07-15-2013, 05:01 PM
I think what caught my eye most on this tale is someone was one of the first ones at a movie and had an hour to talk. I did not get to movies that early even when I was taking my kiddos to shortly after midnight kickoffs for some of the Potter/Hogwarts tales.

UnFrSaKn
07-15-2013, 05:11 PM
He asked me my age and I told him I'm a Millennial. His experience here is that people my age all work for what they want and have jobs and make their own way in life. The Millennials he was used to in Houston all expected things to be given to them, were lazy and narcissistic.

adaniel
07-15-2013, 05:19 PM
I had my first opportunity to explain what OKC is all about today while me and another guy waited at the Warren Theatre for a movie to start. We were the first two people at the IMAX. He actually started up the conversation because I usually keep to myself. The whole time, I was thinking about what I read on here about the stories of having to dispel misinformation or ignorance about OKC. We talked for about an hour and only the beginning was about the city. He was 49 and did construction and was from Houston. He was only here for that day or two and was headed to Waco afterwards. He had "been all over the country" and never saw such an amazing theater as the Warren. I agreed and told him it was even better after the movie started. I rambled on every little fact I could think of. He flat out, with a straight face asked me "what do people do in Oklahoma City?" To him it seemed that since there "was nothing to do in OKC" that people spend more time building fancy theaters and raising families. I know as well as anyone what's going on downtown and I showed him on my iPad all the growth we're having, all the facts and statistics you would hear on a TravelOK video. He said a lot of things that I'm having a hard time recalling all of it. He said that OKC is "20 years culturally behind" and "reminded me of Houston in the 70's". He said that in a good way and went on about how utterly terrible Houston is and that its full of egotistical self-absorbed people. He hoped that OKC would stay the way it is and never gain the negatives of the city he grew up in. He went on into stuff like how he is a single dad with a child and women who he comes across on the street in Houston give him odd looks are stare at his child or look away because they've "all had abortions and don't want to get married and have kid" and everyone in Houston is like that. It was kinda funny to me but I didn't laugh. He made it seem like Houston would be a sterile empty wasteland in 10-15 years because nobody raises families or has kids there. That's the basics of the conversation early on, then it went into comic book movies and anime stuff. It surprised me he appreciated those things and being a little younger than my parents and another generation.

Wow that was an interesting conversation LOL. It doesn't surprise me. Most people I know from Houston have this very odd love/hate relationship with it, and most would live elsewhere if given the chance.

I hate when people ask that question, "What to people here do" So stupid....Hey, lets ask all 1.3 million people in the region to track their day for you. If you have a specific questions about popular activities thats one thing, but when people ask that question it is usually done in a condescending matter. I got it quite a bit when I went to the east coast a few weeks ago. It was always funny because my life and activities never differed that much from theirs.

With that in mind, maybe its because of the crowd I hang out with, but I've never had to deal much with natives badmouthing OKC. I'm sure it happens though. OKC is in that weird space that most mid sized cities with 1-2 million people occupy. Viewed as boring and dull by those from larger cities and a crime filled hellhole to be avoided by small townies. So in a way, OKC will always have to work a bit harder to kind of set itself apart. I, for one, am always talking up OKC when I go out of town. Sometimes I just get brushed off..."yeah, whatever, yokel". But lately, especially if I am in a nearby state, I will get something like,"oh yeah, I was in business up there a few weeks ago, it was actually a nice city." The image of this city from people in the South Central part of the country is surprisingly positive.

Back to your, um, odd, conversation. I kinda understand what that guy was saying when he referred to "behind the times." I consider myself pretty progressive, and yes there are definitely some things that this area needs to catch up with quickly. But in the same way, there is an old timey warmness and friendliness that is not even in comparably sized cities. Just look at the response after the tornado. It wasn't even a question whether people would volunteer, donate cash, etc. And as someone who has lived a lot of places, trust me this does not exist in the majority of places. Its something that has really kept me here. I don't think I could give that up.

Spartan
07-15-2013, 05:43 PM
He asked me my age and I told him I'm a Millennial. His experience here is that people my age all work for what they want and have jobs and make their own way in life. The Millennials he was used to in Houston all expected things to be given to them, were lazy and narcissistic.

Why even listen to or care what anyone says after they lament nobody cares gives them a cookie for following through with raising a child instead of abortion and then that all the Millennials are lazy, selfish, and narcissistic. These people are being shut out of society by they own damn selfs.

As for knowing about OKC, nobody knows that kind of stuff. Cities exist to most people in the gray space between Podunk and NYC, and it's easy for a city to puff itself up and convince some people that it's larger. Everyone in my family insisted once that Kansas City was larger than Fort Worth. KC is just a great city. As for OKC, the local home town appreciation has grown tremendously, and we all know that. The main thing missing from the collective conscious today is just exactly how low OKC fell and how high it can now rise if we get things right.

mdeand
07-15-2013, 05:49 PM
This thread reminds me how astonishing the ignorance of many Oklahomans is about their home. For a place that is wedded to the automobile I wonder if anyone takes theirs anywhere other than the grocery store and church. I remember about 15 years ago I had to suffer through a two-hour plane ride sitting next to a well-to-do lady who lived in Nichols Hills (why she was in coach was beyond me) who was lamenting on and on about how flat and uninteresting Oklahoma's terrain was.

Certainly, Oklahoma has a lot of open wheat field and some dull dusty roads out west, but her comments on that day irritated me to no end, especially since a few weeks before I'd done a 15-mile backpack hike in the Ouachita Mountains in LeFlore County and I would have killed for some flatness. This lady argued with me that there were no mountains anywhere in Oklahoma. I mentioned to her the Wichita Mountains (another favorite haunt of mine). She thought they were in Kansas somewhere.

OK, so some people don't travel too far by car. But, sometimes ignorant provincialism is measured by the city block.

When this lady learned I lived in Norman she said she used to attend football games there, but (and I'm not making this up) it was too far and you had to travel through those neighborhoods on Oklahoma City's south side to get there, so it was dangerous. Still, she traveled by plane to Chicago and NY all the time for shopping. Needless to say, her blood ran blue. I'm sure her children now live in Edmond.


It's no surprise to me that some do not know the great things that are happening in downtown Oklahoma City. Or, the interesting things that do happen in our state. An entire generation or two have been "educated" by the ignorant. Some people just don't get out much, unless it involves a plane ticket to the Big City.

bchris02
07-15-2013, 06:16 PM
(I personally know of 6 families that moved within the past few months). ...1.4+ million people in its metro area
Really. A little skeptical Hot Rod

1.4 million is including the Shawnee micropolitan area.

Midtowner
07-15-2013, 08:53 PM
They do that, trust me. Without the efforts of many in those groups you mentioned, especially the "evil" chamber as many of you on here discuss, the image would be worse.

Folks don't dislike the Chamber for the development work they do. We dislike the chamber because of the work they've done at the capitol to disenfranchise individuals and legislate in favor of the powerful.

Most of us are very much in favor of development, but not at any cost.

bluedogok
07-15-2013, 09:10 PM
This thread reminds me how astonishing the ignorance of many Oklahomans is about their home. For a place that is wedded to the automobile I wonder if anyone takes theirs anywhere other than the grocery store and church. I remember about 15 years ago I had to suffer through a two-hour plane ride sitting next to a well-to-do lady who lived in Nichols Hills (why she was in coach was beyond me) who was lamenting on and on about how flat and uninteresting Oklahoma's terrain was.

Certainly, Oklahoma has a lot of open wheat field and some dull dusty roads out west, but her comments on that day irritated me to no end, especially since a few weeks before I'd done a 15-mile backpack hike in the Ouachita Mountains in LeFlore County and I would have killed for some flatness. This lady argued with me that there were no mountains anywhere in Oklahoma. I mentioned to her the Wichita Mountains (another favorite haunt of mine). She thought they were in Kansas somewhere.

OK, so some people don't travel too far by car. But, sometimes ignorant provincialism is measured by the city block.

When this lady learned I lived in Norman she said she used to attend football games there, but (and I'm not making this up) it was too far and you had to travel through those neighborhoods on Oklahoma City's south side to get there, so it was dangerous. Still, she traveled by plane to Chicago and NY all the time for shopping. Needless to say, her blood ran blue. I'm sure her children now live in Edmond.


It's no surprise to me that some do not know the great things that are happening in downtown Oklahoma City. Or, the interesting things that do happen in our state. An entire generation or two have been "educated" by the ignorant. Some people just don't get out much, unless it involves a plane ticket to the Big City.
That is the attitude in most places, big cities, medium cities or small towns everywhere. Many of those in the "big cities" rarely get outside of their neighborhood or borough and have a myopic of their "own place" and that infects their view of the rest of the country. Provincialism lives everywhere.

bradh
07-16-2013, 12:19 PM
Folks don't dislike the Chamber for the development work they do. We dislike the chamber because of the work they've done at the capitol to disenfranchise individuals and legislate in favor of the powerful.

Most of us are very much in favor of development, but not at any cost.

such as?

Midtowner
07-16-2013, 05:09 PM
Tort reform and workers compensation reform just for starters.

bradh
07-16-2013, 07:15 PM
Their job is to promote business in OKC. By taking the stance that they do on those issues, they certainly aren't trying to disenfranchise the men and women who own small businesses in the metro and are members who rely on the Chamber to lobby and support the issues important to their livelihood.

HOT ROD
07-17-2013, 12:40 AM
Maybe, at one time he worked for Boeing.

JTF is correct; the folks I personally know who have moved to OKC are from Boeing. And many more is to come.

Dubya61
07-17-2013, 08:37 AM
Tort reform and workers compensation reform just for starters.

I don't know what they've lobbied to have done to "reform" workers compensation, so I won't address that at all, but, come on. Even you, a lawyer, can see that there's a need for tort reform, can't you?

hoya
07-17-2013, 08:46 AM
I don't know what they've lobbied to have done to "reform" workers compensation, so I won't address that at all, but, come on. Even you, a lawyer, can see that there's a need for tort reform, can't you?

I can't. Perhaps you can show me some real cases that have come up in the last 10 years that will prove such a need. Not "this lady I heard of got sued by the criminal who got a splinter while breaking into her house", but real cases.

Midtowner
07-17-2013, 09:46 AM
I don't know what they've lobbied to have done to "reform" workers compensation, so I won't address that at all, but, come on. Even you, a lawyer, can see that there's a need for tort reform, can't you?

Maybe, but hard caps on non-economic damages? Elimination of joint and several liability? Protections for the manufacturers of dangerous products? Just about everything they've done has been to put a thumb on the scales of justice in the favor of billion dollar companies at the expense of the victims of their insured. And rates haven't gone down. And they get away with it too. I'll bet you can't tell me what joint and several liability is without running an internet search. I'll bet you can't tell me how hard caps on non-economic damages will be able to put a price tag on human life. It's okay, you're not a lawyer. These are some complex things and the legislature who is passing these things doesn't even really understand what they're doing for the most part. I recall during the 2011 or 2010 tort reform efforts one of the Chamber legislators was being questioned in committee and couldn't even answer questions about the bill because he didn't write it.

There are some good blogs like this fully discussing the issue. Sorry to hijack the thread. The Chamber though, while doing a good job for business has WAAAY too much influence in state politics and anyone, conservative or liberal being that influential isn't a good thing for the rank and file plebs.

http://oklahomacity.legalexaminer.com/miscellaneous/oklahoma-2011-lawsuit-reform-the-dividing-line-between-the-establishment-and-real-conservatives/

Dubya61
07-17-2013, 09:59 AM
I can't. Perhaps you can show me some real cases that have come up in the last 10 years that will prove such a need. Not "this lady I heard of got sued by the criminal who got a splinter while breaking into her house", but real cases.

The Stella Awards

Time once again to review the winners of the Annual "Stella Awards." The Stella Awards are named after 81 year-old Stella Liebeck who spilled hot coffee on herself and successfully sued McDonald's (in NM). That case inspired the Stella Awards for the most frivolous, ridiculous, successful lawsuits in the United States.

Here are this year's winners:

5th Place (tie): Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, was awarded $80,000 by a jury of her peers after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was running inside a furniture store. The owners of the store were understandably surprised at the verdict, considering the misbehaving little toddler was Ms. Robertson's son.

5th Place (tie): 19-year-old Carl Truman of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical expenses when his neighbor ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr. Truman apparently didn't notice there was someone at the wheel of the car when he was trying to steal his neighbor's hubcaps.

5th Place (tie): Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he had just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of $500,000. In my opinion this is so outrageous that it should have been 2nd Place!

4th Place: Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas, was awarded $14,500 and medical expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next door neighbor's beagle. The beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced yard. The award was less than sought because the jury felt the dog might have been just a little provoked at the time, by Mr. Williams who had climbed over the fence into the yard and was shooting it repeatedly with a pellet gun.

3rd Place: A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, $113,500 after she slipped on a soft drink and broke her coccyx (tailbone). The beverage was on the floor because Ms. Carson had thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier during an argument.

2nd Place: Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware, successfully sued the owner of a night club in a neighboring city when she fell from the bathroom window to the floor and knocked out her two front teeth. This occurred while Ms.Walton was trying to s neak through the window in the ladies room to avoid paying the $3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses.

1st Place: This year's runaway winner was Mrs. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Mrs. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32-foot Winnebago motor home. On her first trip home, (from an OU football game), having driven onto the freeway, she set the cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the drivers seat to go into the back & make herself a sandwich. Not surprisingly, th e RV left the freeway, crashed and overturned. Mrs.Grazinski sued Winnebago for not advising her in the owner's manual that she couldn't actually do this. The jury awarded her $1,750,000 plus a new motor home. The company actually changed their manuals on the basis of this suit, just in case there were any other complete morons around.
Here is the official website: The True Stella Awards: Exposing Lawsuit Abuse with TRUE Cases (http://www.stellaawards.com/)

These are from the mid-aughts, as recent as 2007. The guy that wrote "The Stella Awards" has moved on from his research and solicitation for info. Has anything been done since 2007 that would cause these actions to not be possible today?

Dubya61
07-17-2013, 10:01 AM
Maybe, but hard caps on non-economic damages? Elimination of joint and several liability? Protections for the manufacturers of dangerous products? Just about everything they've done has been to put a thumb on the scales of justice in the favor of billion dollar companies at the expense of the victims of their insured. And rates haven't gone down. And they get away with it too. I'll bet you can't tell me what joint and several liability is without running an internet search. I'll bet you can't tell me how hard caps on non-economic damages will be able to put a price tag on human life. It's okay, you're not a lawyer. These are some complex things and the legislature who is passing these things doesn't even really understand what they're doing for the most part. I recall during the 2011 or 2010 tort reform efforts one of the Chamber legislators was being questioned in committee and couldn't even answer questions about the bill because he didn't write it.

There are some good blogs like this fully discussing the issue. Sorry to hijack the thread. The Chamber though, while doing a good job for business has WAAAY too much influence in state politics and anyone, conservative or liberal being that influential isn't a good thing for the rank and file plebs.

Oklahoma 2011 Lawsuit Reform ? The Dividing Line Between the Establishment and Real Conservatives | Oklahoma City Legal Examiner | Oklahoma City Oklahoma Personal Injury Lawyer (http://oklahomacity.legalexaminer.com/miscellaneous/oklahoma-2011-lawsuit-reform-the-dividing-line-between-the-establishment-and-real-conservatives/)

You're right, that it's not my field, and I've no doubt that tort reform could easily go down the wrong path. But there certainly are some head-scratching things out there that make news in favor of tort reform.

Midtowner
07-17-2013, 10:02 AM
The Stella Awards

Time once again to review the winners of the Annual "Stella Awards." The Stella Awards are named after 81 year-old Stella Liebeck who spilled hot coffee on herself and successfully sued McDonald's (in NM). That case inspired the Stella Awards for the most frivolous, ridiculous, successful lawsuits in the United States.

Here are this year's winners:

5th Place (tie): Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, was awarded $80,000 by a jury of her peers after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was running inside a furniture store. The owners of the store were understandably surprised at the verdict, considering the misbehaving little toddler was Ms. Robertson's son.

5th Place (tie): 19-year-old Carl Truman of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical expenses when his neighbor ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr. Truman apparently didn't notice there was someone at the wheel of the car when he was trying to steal his neighbor's hubcaps.

5th Place (tie): Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he had just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of $500,000. In my opinion this is so outrageous that it should have been 2nd Place!

4th Place: Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas, was awarded $14,500 and medical expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next door neighbor's beagle. The beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced yard. The award was less than sought because the jury felt the dog might have been just a little provoked at the time, by Mr. Williams who had climbed over the fence into the yard and was shooting it repeatedly with a pellet gun.

3rd Place: A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, $113,500 after she slipped on a soft drink and broke her coccyx (tailbone). The beverage was on the floor because Ms. Carson had thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier during an argument.

2nd Place: Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware, successfully sued the owner of a night club in a neighboring city when she fell from the bathroom window to the floor and knocked out her two front teeth. This occurred while Ms.Walton was trying to s neak through the window in the ladies room to avoid paying the $3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses.

1st Place: This year's runaway winner was Mrs. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Mrs. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32-foot Winnebago motor home. On her first trip home, (from an OU football game), having driven onto the freeway, she set the cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the drivers seat to go into the back & make herself a sandwich. Not surprisingly, th e RV left the freeway, crashed and overturned. Mrs.Grazinski sued Winnebago for not advising her in the owner's manual that she couldn't actually do this. The jury awarded her $1,750,000 plus a new motor home. The company actually changed their manuals on the basis of this suit, just in case there were any other complete morons around.
Here is the official website: The True Stella Awards: Exposing Lawsuit Abuse with TRUE Cases (http://www.stellaawards.com/)

These are from the mid-aughts, as recent as 2007. The guy that wrote "The Stella Awards" has moved on from his research and solicitation for info. Has anything been done since 2007 that would cause these actions to not be possible today?

Oh for the love of God...

snopes.com: Stella Awards (http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp)

ETA:

What we all just witnessed there (and I'm going to pick on Dubya a bit, don't take it personally) is how woefully ignorant most folks are on this subject. As you saw, his opinion had been largely colored by totally false stories and half truths put out there by the insurance lobby to influence public opinion. Just for funsies, I went into court records to search for that RV case. It doesn't exist.

Tort reform is the most un-conservative "conservative" thing out there. Conservatives believe in personal responsibility but not if that personal responsibility is something which will make businesses pay the people they maim and kill.

Dubya61
07-17-2013, 10:22 AM
Oh for the love of God...

snopes.com: Stella Awards (http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp)

Sure, enough. All of those I listed I drew from their "NOT the real Stella Awards" section (damned that they'd have their own fake page), but they do have several on there that Snopes hasn't declared to be fake.

See:

#4: Ron and Kristie Simmons. The couple's 4-year-old son, Justin, was killed in a tragic lawnmower accident in a licensed daycare facility, and the death was clearly the result of negligence by the daycare providers. The providers were clearly deserving of being sued, yet when the Simmons's discovered the daycare only had $100,000 in insurance, they dropped the case against them and instead sued the manufacturer of the 16-year-old lawn mower because the mower didn't have a safety device that 1) had not been invented at the time of the mower's manufacture, and 2) no safety agency had even suggested needed it to be invented. A sympathetic jury still awarded the family $2 million. from 2007.

Midtowner
07-17-2013, 10:30 AM
Sure, enough. All of those I listed I drew from their "NOT the real Stella Awards" section (damned that they'd have their own fake page), but they do have several on there that Snopes hasn't declared to be fake.

See:
from 2007.

Googled it, couldn't find a single news site reporting this. Just a bunch of blogs and people repeating what they read on the already discredited list. Also, just glancing at it, let's assume everything in there is true, just like with the McDonald's hot coffee case, the devil's in the details. The real Stella for whom the list was named was richly deserving of what she got considering McDonald's culpability. It's not as if the creators of this list, again, assuming they're not just making up lies, are going to discuss why that jury might have been sympathetic.

The true facts of the hot coffee case if you're interested:

The Actual Facts about the Mcdonalds' Coffee Case (http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm)

But the McDonald's case is instructive. The only way to stop a corporation from doing things which kill and maim customers in the name of profit is to make that activity unprofitable. If the company knows it can be smacked with a huge jury award and they have no way of predicting how much, they're going to be more careful. Read up about the Ford Pinto case where Ford knew statistically that something like a $15 fix per car would prevent hundreds of people from being killed or maimed, but predicted that the profits lost on that fix would be more expensive than fixing it, so Ford made the decision to kill and maim people for a little profit. It was all in memos, very cut and dry. Thing is-- Ford was hit with a HUGE jury verdict which revolutionized the cold calculus of auto safety in favor of the consumer.

hoya
07-17-2013, 10:39 AM
Edit:

Oops, ninja'd by Midtowner.

Dubya61
07-17-2013, 10:47 AM
Googled it, couldn't find a single news site reporting this. Just a bunch of blogs and people repeating what they read on the already discredited list. Also, just glancing at it, let's assume everything in there is true, just like with the McDonald's hot coffee case, the devil's in the details. The real Stella for whom the list was named was richly deserving of what she got considering McDonald's culpability. It's not as if the creators of this list, again, assuming they're not just making up lies, are going to discuss why that jury might have been sympathetic.

The true facts of the hot coffee case if you're interested:

The Actual Facts about the Mcdonalds' Coffee Case (http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm)

But the McDonald's case is instructive. The only way to stop a corporation from doing things which kill and maim customers in the name of profit is to make that activity unprofitable. If the company knows it can be smacked with a huge jury award and they have no way of predicting how much, they're going to be more careful. Read up about the Ford Pinto case where Ford knew statistically that something like a $15 fix per car would prevent hundreds of people from being killed or maimed, but predicted that the profits lost on that fix would be more expensive than fixing it, so Ford made the decision to kill and maim people for a little profit. It was all in memos, very cut and dry. Thing is-- Ford was hit with a HUGE jury verdict which revolutionized the cold calculus of auto safety in favor of the consumer.

The Roanoake Times reported on the filing of the lawsuit, but not the settlement.
Lawn mower death prompts parents to file $6 million lawsuit - Roanoke.com (http://ww2.roanoke.com//news/roanoke%5c12487.html)

Further, the "Stella Awards" webpage includes all the actual facts your source cites, plus:

Coffee is supposed to be served in the range of 185 degrees! The National Coffee Association recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." (Source: NCAUSA.) Exactly what, then, did McDonald's do wrong? Did it exhibit "willful, wanton, reckless or malicious conduct" -- the standard in New Mexico for awarding punitive damages?
I've not done any research into the Ford Pinto case (short of driving one in my youth), and I don't dispute your comments in that regard.

hoya
07-17-2013, 11:01 AM
The Roanoake Times reported on the filing of the lawsuit, but not the settlement.
Lawn mower death prompts parents to file $6 million lawsuit - Roanoke.com (http://ww2.roanoke.com//news/roanoke%5c12487.html)

Further, the "Stella Awards" webpage includes all the actual facts your source cites, plus:

I've not done any research into the Ford Pinto case (short of driving one in my youth), and I don't dispute your comments in that regard.

What you are wanting to do is relitigate the case. You become upset about specific facts or specific arguments. You say "boy what a dumb jury". But your solution is tort reform that simply makes recovery of damages much more difficult, regardless of the fact specific scenario.

You argue that the coffee was served at the right temperature. But the temperature of the coffee in one case does not bear any weight toward what legal remedies should be available. Tort reform that eliminates punitive damages doesn't just apply to the cases that offend you. What if McDonald's had kept their coffee at 211 degrees, one degree below boiling. They didn't, but your "tort reform" would protect them even if they had.

Let's go to the lawnmower case that may or may not exist.



#4: Ron and Kristie Simmons. The couple's 4-year-old son, Justin, was killed in a tragic lawnmower accident in a licensed daycare facility, and the death was clearly the result of negligence by the daycare providers. The providers were clearly deserving of being sued, yet when the Simmons's discovered the daycare only had $100,000 in insurance, they dropped the case against them and instead sued the manufacturer of the 16-year-old lawn mower because the mower didn't have a safety device that 1) had not been invented at the time of the mower's manufacture, and 2) no safety agency had even suggested needed it to be invented. A sympathetic jury still awarded the family $2 million.

So your solution is to make it harder to recover damages. But let's change the facts. Let's say that it was a new lawnmower. Let's say that there were plenty of available safety options that the company chose not to use because it would cost an extra $5. And let's say that the mower was being used properly when it went out of control and killed the little boy.

How do your proposed reforms prevent jury awards in your hypothetical case, but allow large awards in my altered hypothetical case?