View Full Version : Lifechurch.tv building a New Location in North OKC



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Tydude
07-06-2013, 01:25 PM
Lifechurch.tv to add a location in north Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/lifechurch.tv-to-add-a-location-in-north-oklahoma-city/article/3859419)

Sonny_Crockett
10-25-2013, 11:44 AM
Interesting.

Sadly the BGCO and the Southern Baptist Convention (which engulf the Bible belt/Oklahoma) have been Craig Groeschel/Lifechurch.tv's biggest critics. More and more people are leaving SBC Churches and going to Life/Victory/Journey Norman etc.

ThomPaine
10-25-2013, 11:45 AM
Drove by the site today, huge.

venture
10-25-2013, 11:47 AM
I wonder if they are having any Black Friday sales?

Pete
10-25-2013, 12:09 PM
It's 20 acres of a rather narrow strip of land that fronts the west side of Broadway Extension just south of Britton Road.

That land used to belong to OPUBCO.

Garin
10-28-2013, 06:40 PM
The whole approach that most of these covenant churches go about attracting people is IMO silly. Coffee bars, trampolines, moon bounces, DJ's , rock concerts, feel good services. It's like they a compitetion of who can give you the most crap.

RadicalModerate
10-28-2013, 08:09 PM
The whole approach that most of these covenant churches go about attracting people is IMO silly. Coffee bars, trampolines, moon bounces, DJ's , rock concerts, feel good services. It's like they a compitetion of who can give you the most crap.

I have to agree. I prefer endless pairs of Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door and leaving copies of The Watchtower, along with hoards of pairs of Mormons in black slacks and white shirts with narrow ties, on bicycles, clogging up the roadways, to trampolines and moon bounces, too.

It makes me want to shave my head, don an orange robe, put some little cymbals on my fingers and go around annoying people at airports chanting "Nam m'yoho renge kyo." Except instead of chanting for World Peace I'd probably be chanting for a Mercedes Benz convertible.

jbkrems
10-28-2013, 08:35 PM
I'm not a Baptist, but I don't go to a megachurch, either. I think that some churches, really ALL churches, need to be attracting people into their doors !!! Why ??? Let's get to the bottom line here, folks, if we are not getting people saved in our churches, we are not doing our job, the Great Commission. People need to be coming into these churches so that they can get saved and discipled. Is there a problem with these contemporary approaches to getting people in ? Nowhere in the Bible does it say don't put a coffee shop in your church. Or for that matter don't set up a moon bounce for the kids. Or for that matter don't include a DJ or rock concert as part of your worship service. These things are NOT prohibited in the Bible. So, RadicalModerate, when did you or anyone else become the judge of these other churches ? I don't judge other churches who do not do things the way we do it at my church. I may agree or disagree with certain things, but that's just an opinion and I do not have to express it all the time. I would applaud ANY church that is having people walk the aisle to get saved and give their lives over to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen ?

Plutonic Panda
10-28-2013, 09:03 PM
I'm not a Baptist, but I don't go to a megachurch, either. I think that some churches, really ALL churches, need to be attracting people into their doors !!! Why ??? Let's get to the bottom line here, folks, if we are not getting people saved in our churches, we are not doing our job, the Great Commission. People need to be coming into these churches so that they can get saved and discipled. Is there a problem with these contemporary approaches to getting people in ? Nowhere in the Bible does it say don't put a coffee shop in your church. Or for that matter don't set up a moon bounce for the kids. Or for that matter don't include a DJ or rock concert as part of your worship service. These things are NOT prohibited in the Bible. So, RadicalModerate, when did you or anyone else become the judge of these other churches ? I don't judge other churches who do not do things the way we do it at my church. I may agree or disagree with certain things, but that's just an opinion and I do not have to express it all the time. I would applaud ANY church that is having people walk the aisle to get saved and give their lives over to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen ?I have a very strong opinion of Life Church as well as other mega churches. I will not go into detail, as I've already told myself I won't get into political debates on this forum and weeeeeelllll. . . .

Just know that I think they represent nothing even remotely close to what they claim to represent and if I were a councilman or any person in charge of making the decision of deciding to issue permits for these "churches" to build here, they wouldn't be here. That's all I'm going to say.

venture
10-29-2013, 12:02 AM
I have a very strong opinion of Life Church as well as other mega churches. I will not go into detail, as I've already told myself I won't get into political debates on this forum and weeeeeelllll. . . .

Just know that I think they represent nothing even remotely close to what they claim to represent and if I were a councilman or any person in charge of making the decision of deciding to issue permits for these "churches" to build here, they wouldn't be here. That's all I'm going to say.

I've always felt odd looking at these mega or "big box" churches. I think that part of that comes from growing up a traditional Catholic in a church with beautiful architecture and pastors living in rectories. I'm talking...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/ToledoCathedralHolyRosary.jpg/250px-ToledoCathedralHolyRosary.jpg http://www.dailystandard.com/picts/2009/02/13/2009-02-13_9_full.jpg

Not this fad of big box stores...errr "churches"...

http://weddingmapper.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/photos/9/30/173929_l.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2188/500/320/sechristian.jpg

http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/images/metachurch.JPG

Oh and the homes of these so-called pastors?

http://floatingaxehead.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/beach-mansions.jpg?w=614

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/robert-freeman-home-e1343845906460.jpg?w=450&h=227

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m335/dmhlt48/Miscellaneous/Minister_Helicopter_Home-Mansion_Hilliard_zps634689be.jpg

All of those homes are of "pastors" of these big box "churches". To me, this is simply a glaring example of legal tax evasion hiding under a non-profit organization while sucking the money out of their flock...ahem...sheep. This is why I am a huge proponent of eliminating ALL tax exemptions and deductions. Flat tax everyone...either via a sales tax or income tax. Everyone pays their portion...no skirting around the rules.

Plutonic Panda
10-29-2013, 12:24 AM
Come on, Venture, don't get me going man lol

I agree with you though 100%

venture
10-29-2013, 12:32 AM
Come on, Venture, don't get me going man lol

I agree with you though 100%

LOL it's okay. I'm channeling you in my comments so you don't have to. :)

RadicalModerate
10-29-2013, 06:30 AM
So, RadicalModerate, when did you or anyone else become the judge of these other churches ?

I can't speak for "anyone else" . . . but where was the judgmentalism in my preferences regarding trampolines, water slides, coffee shops, etc.(as part of the "worship experience") as compared to Scientology or Nichiren Buddhism?

bombermwc
10-29-2013, 06:58 AM
I dont want to make this into a religous debate thread or anything so i'm just going to give a few comments.

1 - mega churches are not new and they are not unique to the new-age nondenominational world. Mega churches have been around for a long time, and are rooted in the traditional denominational world (and MOSTLY exist there still). Southern Baptist, Methodist, and Pentacostal mainly. Where do you think Life Church started from...hello Metro Church. First Southern of Del City, Asbury UMC in Tulsa, St Lukes in OKC, the list goes on and on. The mega/smaller debate isn't new, no more than the debate between smaller and large schools is.

2 - nondenominational churches aren't new either - we all want to find somewhere that speaks to us. For generations, people have found alternate methods to worship outside of the box that's presented to us as the only option (ie the one our parents attended). Why do you think the reformation came about? You think the debate here is a big deal....we've got nothing on Martin Luther folks.

3 - "those big box churches are fake crap". you're welcome to that opinion. They definitely are NOT for me. However, i can appreciate their attractiveness for so many people. Members of my own family attend Life Church and have had a love/hate relationship with it. BUT, they still felt more welcome there than at the Methodist church we grew up in! I dont attend that methodist church anymore either. I've since joined a Disciples of Christ church. One MAJOR difference i see with my particular congregation fits more with these "new-age" churches than the old traditional model in that we welcome people of all kinds (and not just by saying it). So many people attend a church and "don't quite fit in", shall we say. Maybe they don't want to wear slacks, maybe they have a lot of piercings, maybe they are all tatted up. Pardon me mr southern baptist minister, i didn't realize that only a certain type of person was allowed to worship in your church and that you got to decide that. THAT is the root of this. The so-called churches not welcoming people because they dont fit into the box of what they think a member should be. That doesn't mean those people don't have faith...they're just having a hard time finding someone that will accept them. That's one place Life Church and those like it (Frontline, Journey, etc) work. They honestly accept people of all types and give them direction (which is what the service is all about right) for their worship. Maybe they prefer to sing to praise and worship music rather than an organ. So what. Does that make them any less of a Christian than you or I? And besides that, who are we to judge them? It certainly isn't our place to decide or judge what is right or wrong here. We chose a denomination (myself included) because of our personal opinions, not because God ordained that ours was the right and only way.

Garin
10-29-2013, 07:01 AM
LifeChurch.tv is part of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC) - a rapidly growing multi-ethnic denomination in the United States and Canada with ministries on five continents of the world. Founded in 1885 by Swedish immigrants, the ECC values the Bible as the Word of God, the gift of God's grace and ever-deepening spiritual life that comes through faith in Jesus Christ, the importance of extending God's love and compassion to a hurting world, and the strength that comes from unity within diversity.

What makes the Covenant unique from other denominations is the fact that while it strongly affirms the clear teaching of the Word of God, it allows believers the personal freedom to have varying interpretations on theological issues that are not clearly presented in Scripture.

The last sentence is the most dangerous part for the newly saved.

David
10-29-2013, 07:29 AM
Tax evasion? My brother is a pastor and I can promise you he pays income tax, I helped him with his taxes a few years back so I know this for an absolute fact.

Can you be more specific about what you mean, Venture?

FritterGirl
10-29-2013, 07:58 AM
My favorite vanity tag of all time was the one I saw two years ago displayed on a brand new E-Class Mercedes 4-door Sedan outside of Lowe's at Penn and Memorial. It simply said "God Biz." This pretty much sums up the idea of mega-churches to me. I wish I had taken a photo of it.

ABryant
10-29-2013, 08:35 AM
I've thought about this for a while. How to tax huge churches without putting a strain on small community churches. I have not figured out the answer, but it does bother me that some institutions can rake in tons of cash tax free, while others just survive. I'm not trying to judge the intentions of the institutions. Is just a internal philosophical debate for me.

Midtowner
10-29-2013, 08:37 AM
Tax evasion? My brother is a pastor and I can promise you he pays income tax, I helped him with his taxes a few years back so I know this for an absolute fact.

Can you be more specific about what you mean, Venture?

I'm guessing his beef is going to be what pastors count as income for tax calculation purposes.

Bellaboo
10-29-2013, 09:27 AM
I'm guessing his beef is going to be what pastors count as income for tax calculation purposes.

I would care to guess it would be high $ property tax evasion on their parsonages...?

bombermwc
10-30-2013, 06:51 AM
What makes you think that just because they are a large church, that they have to be doing something shady? I've seen churches in the most afluent parts of town almost go bankrupt because the wealthy members dont want to contribute to a united image, rather only to what projects they want done. At the same time, churches in economically depressed areas are strong and stable.

Pastors also have a salary approved by the board of that church. Just like anyone else, they also have bills. If their income surpasses their bills, then they are able to do things. Hopefully they spend the lionshare on that on programs to help people in/out of the church, and not just to put in more fancy lighting and crap.

LifeChurch isn't any different in this respect. I dont care for them, but it bugs me when people single them out as if their some "demon church". Hello....Tammy Faye Baker! When's the last time you saw someone on TBN that was an honest pastor...HA! If churches like these weren't speaking to people on some level, then they wouldn't have the congregations they do. Again, i dont attend there, but the new MWC campus has something like 6 or 7 services on Sunday now spread throughout the day. The parking lot in front of the place is absolutely full every single time. You'll see a couple thousand people flow through that place on a Sunday. You think they're all getting brainwashed or something? All the while, the church continues to grow all over the city. It's not my kind of church, but i seriously doubt that the place is doing shady stuff with their money if that many people are still being attracted to it every week. Now, i do not agree with how the amount of money a person gives there, changes how they view a person. I've seen that first hand with my sister's family so you can't tell me that doesn't happen. However, that's not really any different than it would be in other churches.

Life Church's parent, Metro Church, was notorious for the pastor saying "we need $150,000 more in today's offering. Bow your heads and let me see 10 people raise their hands to give 15K today". I'm not making that up.

Martin
10-30-2013, 07:06 AM
It makes me want to shave my head, don an orange robe, put some little cymbals on my fingers and go around annoying people at airports chanting "Nam m'yoho renge kyo."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4CizzE-zZo

Garin
10-30-2013, 07:09 AM
The one and only time I attend a life church service as the offering plate was being passed around, the pastor onsite said if anyone needs any of the money in the plate go ahead and take it. I was a little taken back by that approach. They are also building all of these churches on bank loans not cash. IMO thats not being a very good steward with GODS money.

Snowman
10-30-2013, 07:21 AM
While I don't think they will be accused of spending vast amounts of money to create architectural wonders in their church buildings, most of buildings I have seen them operate around here were long empty big box stores or office buildings that had been vacant for years, so it is also not exactly making the neighborhood look worse either.


I've always felt odd looking at these mega or "big box" churches. I think that part of that comes from growing up a traditional Catholic in a church with beautiful architecture and pastors living in rectories ...
http://weddingmapper.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/photos/9/30/173929_l.jpg

RadicalModerate
10-30-2013, 07:25 AM
The one and only time I attend a life church service as the offering plate was being passed around, the pastor onsite said if anyone needs any of the money in the plate go ahead and take it. I was a little taken back by that approach. They are also building all of these churches on bank loans not cash. IMO thats not being a very good steward with GODS money.

I saw something, such as what you described, occur during the offering at Victory Christian Center, around Thanksgiving, several years ago. It was pretty impressive, actually. The Bible says that the LORD loves a cheerful giver which to me implies that it's better not to give at all than to give grudgingly or to show off like some sort of Pharisee or whatever. But I'm not going to pretend to be a theologian and I can't be sure.

Of Sound Mind
10-30-2013, 07:29 AM
Life Church's parent, Metro Church, was notorious for the pastor saying "we need $150,000 more in today's offering. Bow your heads and let me see 10 people raise their hands to give 15K today". I'm not making that up.
Metrochurch was not Lifechurch's parent — not in the least. Lifechurch existed separately from Metrochurch and was growing significantly completely independent of Metrochurch before the two churches merged. Metrochurch's heritage, and particularly of that first pastor (after which two completely different pastors served subsequently), has never been reflected in Lifechurch.

Note: I am not a member of Lifechurch. I was a member of Metrochurch at the time of the merger and moved on to a new church a few months after the merger.

BoomerSooner06
10-30-2013, 08:19 AM
Garin- Please provide a link to backup your statement about accruing debt with new construction projects.

Unaudited 2013 Statement of Activities for LC.tv: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ext.lifechurch.tv/pdf/2Q_2013_Analysis_for_Website.pdf

BoomerSooner06
10-30-2013, 08:25 AM
While I'm not a member of Life Church, I can honestly say that few churches give as generously as LC.

2012 Year in Review Video for LC.tv: https://www.lifechurch.tv/2012review

cagoklahoma
10-30-2013, 08:36 AM
The one and only time I attend a life church service as the offering plate was being passed around, the pastor onsite said if anyone needs any of the money in the plate go ahead and take it. I was a little taken back by that approach. They are also building all of these churches on bank loans not cash. IMO thats not being a very good steward with GODS money.

They do not build with loans. There is a fund for the people who call LC home to give to the expansion of future campuses. It is called "Spaces and Places." Not only do they not build by borrowing, they will repurpose a building when possible. For example, NW Expressway campus used to be a Wal-Mart, the Yukon campus also had a previous life before Life Church. Midwest City had a previous life as well. I could continue, but you get my point. By expanding this way, they are able to reduce the cost, while returning life (pun not intended, but still happy) to empty buildings.

The church gives its resources to other churches. FREE. They have some of the very best church software available. Craig just released another book titled Fight and all his proceeds will be returned to the church. They allow people to download the Bible app for free, it is been downloaded over 100,000,000 times around the world.

They are about expanding the Church (capital C) not just their church and they do so by being good stewards.

bradh
10-30-2013, 11:19 AM
just wish they (and all these other places) would drop the .tv from their names. It's stupid.

venture
10-30-2013, 11:24 AM
just wish they (and all these other places) would drop the .tv from their names. It's stupid.

I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

David
10-30-2013, 11:31 AM
I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

Let me repeat my question in case you didn't see it. Can you be specific about the legal tax-evasion you believe to be happening?

bradh
10-30-2013, 11:32 AM
I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

The ".tv" thing doesn't help with their public perception to non-church goers, definitely.

venture
10-30-2013, 12:01 PM
Let me repeat my question in case you didn't see it. Can you be specific about the legal tax-evasion you believe to be happening?

Catholic priests make roughly 25-30k a year...which I have no problem with. Then you get into people like...

Ken Copeland - private jet and airstrip, $6 million lakefront mansion. Combined salary with wife is around $700k a year from the "church."
John Hagee - Cornerstone in San Antonio makes around $1 million a year in salary.
Charles Blake - $900k salary and 10,000 sq mansion in Beverly Hills.
Benny Hinn - around $1m a year salary.
Joel Osteen - did make $200k from the "church" but was called out and stops pulling a salary, living off book revenue now in his 17,000 sq ft mansion.
Ed Young - Fellowship in Dallas earns $1 million a year in salary from the "church" and has a 10,000 sq ft $1.5 million home.
Franklin Graham - Earn $1.2 million before saying he would donate more and took the salary disclosure private.

How exactly can a non-profit that should be acting in the ministry, doing God's work, and take care of people...afford to pay pastors that much? Sure the person will get hit with income taxes, unless they find enough deductions, but the "church" isn't being hit with income tax. To be clear, I'm for ALL non-profits to lose tax exempt status. No more exemptions - no more deductions.

Sonny_Crockett
10-30-2013, 12:27 PM
I know for a fact that the BGCO and most Southern Baptist churches in Oklahoma are against Life Church for several reasons (mostly because they're "Seeker Sensitive" and follow Rick Warren's model.) BGCO has also claimed that adults 18-45 leave SBC churches to attend Lifechurch/Victory Church/Journey Church etc.

Lifechurch's worship tends mixes in "secular" pop music into services and the reason for this is to bring in non-believers and make them feel comfortable.

Craig Groeschel doesn't endorse the prosperity/word of faith/TBN doctrine though he has endorsed TBN/The PTL Club/Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland/Joyce Meyer etc. and has spoken at Prosperity Churches like Hillsong Australia.

Groeschel was one of, if not the curator for "Multi-Site" churches. So if you attend a Lifechurch campus outside the main Edmond Campus, you watch Groeschel's sermons on the big screen. Also, many evangelicals like John MacArthur and John Piper have slammed "multi-church" sites and Groeschel in particular.

David
10-30-2013, 12:28 PM
Okay, that's what I was wondering about.

I can't say I have the same concern since the pastors themselves are paying income tax, but I can see where you are coming from.

cagoklahoma
10-30-2013, 01:30 PM
Venture,

Let me start by saying that I can understand your concerns regarding the 501c (#) tax exempt status. For many organizations, I would even agree. For example the NFL is a 501c(6) and is therefore exempt from taxation. So I agree that there is a definite need to reevaluate some of the subsections of the USTC Section 501. To remove that coveted status would have negative consequences in cities across the country as well as in countries around the world (not all non-profit work is done within our borders). Profit motive is the primary difference between non-profits and for profit organizations (FPO). We as a society have become dependent upon charitable organizations to do much of the work that typical FPO’s wouldn’t do. FPO’s would not do the charitable work of most non-profits because they wouldn’t make any money. Investors don’t really like doing charity.

I don’t believe the removal of tax exemption would be as big of a hit to Church as it would be to other service organizations, universities, chambers of commerce, and other social groups. Tithers don’t typically tithe because of the tax shelters. We do so because of our faith. There are plenty of ways to reduce tax liability that are perfectly legal, and the Church is not one of them.

Snowman
10-30-2013, 05:09 PM
I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

.org is an option for non profits but by no means a requirement, also it started out as more of a pain to obtain since you had do a verification step verses just sending in money and be done with it but even the requirement for non-profit status has been relaxed somewhat over time. Still a lot, if not most, organizations run with .com since that is what most people think when they think of a url.

.tv, .net, .info and other domains while never as popular as .com were also generally cheaper to buy and easier to get the name you want (though that may mean someone else could have the same second level domain name on a more popular top level domain). I heard a few years ago that .com has had at least ten times as many sites as all the rest combined. Often though they will buy the same second level domains from multiple top level domains, choose which one to serve all requests from and forward all the others to that, though some will use the specialized ones like tv or info for a sub-site that deals with that type of media.

RadicalModerate
10-30-2013, 05:33 PM
That whole .tv thing had me a little flummoxed for awhile.
I thought it was a plot by that Dayspring media dude to take over Christendom.
Turns out the "tv" after the dot stands for Tuvalu.
If you wanted to have an offshore bank account, that would be the place to have it.

Dustin
10-30-2013, 06:08 PM
Goodness... How many churches is this now? 20?

Dustin
10-30-2013, 06:12 PM
Also, I have family that attends life church and they love it.

I'm not big on church or religion, but I hear if you want to go to a church that is less preachy and more singing and dancing, this is the place to be.

bombermwc
10-31-2013, 10:45 AM
So far I haven't really seen any reasons here (at least informed ones) of why folks have a problem with Life Church.

And for those that discount the pre-recorded sermon, i hear you. There is something lost in not being able to interact with your congregation as you give the sermon. A church lives or dies by its pastor. If you attend LC, you probably like him. Each site has their own pastor, but the main guy is this man. So i'd like to know how else you can give a sermon in 20 different sites (6 or 7 times a day might i add) if you dont do it this way. If you go live, the cost of that is astronaumical compared to just playing a video (which is now prepped for online as well). As i've said many times, it's not for me, but i can appreciate why things are done this way.....and a lot of people are receptive to that. Especially with today's media focus, "watching" your pastor on "tv" can attract more interest (and think the younger congregation too) than a pulpit.

venture
10-31-2013, 11:04 AM
Since when is cost a concern for spreading the word of God? When that starts to become an issue, you know you've changed to a for-profit model (with in the guidelines of the law to see be "non-profit") and less about being a church preaching to the flock.

Rover
10-31-2013, 11:19 AM
Being prudent with your resources (conscious of costs) is very relevant and is an appropriate issue with churches. The implication that cost responsibility is somehow anti Christian is just ignorance.

Midtowner
10-31-2013, 11:33 AM
I would care to guess it would be high $ property tax evasion on their parsonages...?

Their parsonage, which is owned by the church and tax-exempt? Their cars which are owned by the church? I knew a priest once who had his own personal chef paid for by the church.

As with anyplace, in the religious world, it's good to be the king.

Midtowner
10-31-2013, 11:35 AM
So far I haven't really seen any reasons here (at least informed ones) of why folks have a problem with Life Church.

And for those that discount the pre-recorded sermon, i hear you. There is something lost in not being able to interact with your congregation as you give the sermon. A church lives or dies by its pastor. If you attend LC, you probably like him. Each site has their own pastor, but the main guy is this man. So i'd like to know how else you can give a sermon in 20 different sites (6 or 7 times a day might i add) if you dont do it this way. If you go live, the cost of that is astronaumical compared to just playing a video (which is now prepped for online as well). As i've said many times, it's not for me, but i can appreciate why things are done this way.....and a lot of people are receptive to that. Especially with today's media focus, "watching" your pastor on "tv" can attract more interest (and think the younger congregation too) than a pulpit.

Seems to me you have a cult of personality. If LC wouldn't be LC without Mr. Groeschel, is LC more about their leader or more about their message? Messages don't depend on the deliveryman to ring true or not.

venture
10-31-2013, 12:12 PM
Being prudent with your resources (conscious of costs) is very relevant and is an appropriate issue with churches. The implication that cost responsibility is somehow anti Christian is just ignorance.

If cost is a concern, then why spread themselves out so thin? Sure I've seen Catholic parishes close and consolidate due to costs, but they also don't have the high expenses that these big box "churches" willingly take on. If cost was an issue, maybe there should be more prudent purchasing. Does a church really need this?

http://sunnythomas.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/thfh-043.jpg?w=500

http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090725/Control_Room_610x405.jpg

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2012/03/31/85/20/lifechurch1_1310443a.jpg

Dubya61
10-31-2013, 03:04 PM
If cost was an issue, maybe there should be more prudent purchasing. Does a church really need this?

I mostly agree with you on the tax thing, but ...
Yes, a church really needs that if it's what connects to the people who want it.
There are a lot of flavors of church, and this particular flavor doesn't suit me (or bomberMWC or venture79, apparently), but it suits some, and if that's the way that they choose to tend to their spiritual needs, then it's fine by me.

venture
10-31-2013, 04:27 PM
I mostly agree with you on the tax thing, but ...
Yes, a church really needs that if it's what connects to the people who want it.
There are a lot of flavors of church, and this particular flavor doesn't suit me (or bomberMWC or venture79, apparently), but it suits some, and if that's the way that they choose to tend to their spiritual needs, then it's fine by me.

I suppose I can agree with that.

boscorama
10-31-2013, 07:51 PM
Sometimes it depends on what people want in a church. If you want to be a big fish in a small pond, a small church really needs people like you. If you want to blend in and flee at the end of the service, contributing nothing except some bucks in the offering plate, a mega church is a God send (npi).

bombermwc
11-01-2013, 06:36 AM
Seems to me you have a cult of personality. If LC wouldn't be LC without Mr. Groeschel, is LC more about their leader or more about their message? Messages don't depend on the deliveryman to ring true or not.

I think you're stretching my statement too far here. The Methodist church would agree with you, that the pastor should only be a messenger and your faith should not rely on that person. HOWEVER, for me, the pastor is as much about the church as the congregation. The pastor decides what director the sermons (and the church) take. The pastor is the flock leader. They are human and make bad choices as well, so no i'm not going to follow a pastor blindly over a cliff. One of the main points my pastor (and is true to the nature of Disciples of Christ) is to question and educate yourself. That being said, if the pastor comes into a church and that pastor sucks...that chuch is either going to fall or fire the pastor. So yes, i do feel like the pastor is linked to the success of the church.

If you knew me at all, calling me "a cult personality" would be laughable. I'm a moderate in basically all aspects of my life, but following blindly has never been something that's part of me....lol.

The same is true of any movement you know. How the message is presented is as important as what the message is. Politics is a good example. Those with the good ideas are often behind the scenes while the more (at least theoretically) eloquent folks present it. We all experience this. If you see two people standing on the side of the road holding a "hungry" sign, one dressed in a suit and the other dressed in rags, which are you more likely to believe honestly needs the help? 5 minutes earlier, someone might have given the one man a suit while the other might be ripping people off as he climbs into his BMW.

OKC4me
11-01-2013, 10:02 PM
What makes you think that just because they are a large church, that they have to be doing something shady? I've seen churches in the most afluent parts of town almost go bankrupt because the wealthy members dont want to contribute to a united image, rather only to what projects they want done. At the same time, churches in economically depressed areas are strong and stable.

Pastors also have a salary approved by the board of that church. Just like anyone else, they also have bills. If their income surpasses their bills, then they are able to do things. Hopefully they spend the lionshare on that on programs to help people in/out of the church, and not just to put in more fancy lighting and crap.

LifeChurch isn't any different in this respect. I dont care for them, but it bugs me when people single them out as if their some "demon church". Hello....Tammy Faye Baker! When's the last time you saw someone on TBN that was an honest pastor...HA! If churches like these weren't speaking to people on some level, then they wouldn't have the congregations they do. Again, i dont attend there, but the new MWC campus has something like 6 or 7 services on Sunday now spread throughout the day. The parking lot in front of the place is absolutely full every single time. You'll see a couple thousand people flow through that place on a Sunday. You think they're all getting brainwashed or something? All the while, the church continues to grow all over the city. It's not my kind of church, but i seriously doubt that the place is doing shady stuff with their money if that many people are still being attracted to it every week. Now, i do not agree with how the amount of money a person gives there, changes how they view a person. I've seen that first hand with my sister's family so you can't tell me that doesn't happen. However, that's not really any different than it would be in other churches.

Life Church's parent, Metro Church, was notorious for the pastor saying "we need $150,000 more in today's offering. Bow your heads and let me see 10 people raise their hands to give 15K today". I'm not making that up.

I went to MetroChurch my whole life, and I never heard Pastor Hogue ever say that..........

OKC4me
11-01-2013, 10:10 PM
If cost is a concern, then why spread themselves out so thin? Sure I've seen Catholic parishes close and consolidate due to costs, but they also don't have the high expenses that these big box "churches" willingly take on. If cost was an issue, maybe there should be more prudent purchasing. Does a church really need this?

http://sunnythomas.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/thfh-043.jpg?w=500

http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090725/Control_Room_610x405.jpg

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2012/03/31/85/20/lifechurch1_1310443a.jpg

How dare Life Church have a couple big screen TV's! Wow. Its wonderful for the local sports bar to have 30 TV's, but how dare a church have a couple TV's! I think I see some coffee out there too. Do they really need that?

RadicalModerate
11-01-2013, 10:56 PM
How dare Life Church have a couple big screen TV's! Wow. Its wonderful for the local sports bar to have 30 TV's, but how dare a church have a couple TV's! I think I see some coffee out there too. Do they really need that?

That is a difficult question to answer.
There is 'hell' . . . There are 'handbaskets' . . .
And then there are 'big screen tvs' . . .

I'm not sure where 'need' fits here . . .
other than the 'need' to complain.
about something.
much like
an infant. =)

no offense.

and who
is
they?

OKC4me
11-03-2013, 09:39 AM
That is a difficult question to answer.
There is 'hell' . . . There are 'handbaskets' . . .
And then there are 'big screen tvs' . . .

I'm not sure where 'need' fits here . . .
other than the 'need' to complain.
about something.
much like
an infant. =)

no offense.

and who
is
they?

I'm not even sure what your comment means?

Plutonic Panda
11-03-2013, 01:06 PM
I'm not even sure what your comment means?It means you are unaware of what it means.

ljbab728
11-03-2013, 09:03 PM
It means you are unaware of what it means.

What does that mean? :wink:

Plutonic Panda
11-04-2013, 12:00 AM
What does that mean? :wink:What does anything really "mean" anymore? lol ;)

bombermwc
11-04-2013, 10:34 AM
I went to MetroChurch my whole life, and I never heard Pastor Hogue ever say that..........


Well it came out of a former member of that congregation and said they heard it more than once. Not sure what to tell you there.

ThomPaine
11-04-2013, 06:50 PM
What does anything really "mean" anymore? lol ;)

Well, if you're seeking answers, I know of this really cool church... :wink: