Upon moving to OKC, one of the first thing that struck me is how much more noticeably blue collar this city is in nature as compared to Charlotte or even Tulsa, at least on the surface. However, it seems as of late a lot more educated professionals have been relocating here as well as state university graduates staying here rather than moving to Austin, Dallas, etc. With this in mind, there is no doubt the future of OKC is significantly more white collar than it has been in the past. For those who have been here longer and are more familiar with it, do you see this as a blue collar or white collar city? Is it becoming more white collar and if so, how far are we from the tipping point?

okc is very much a mix of both

I don't think I have ever really felt it was strictly one or the other, I could see an argument for it having been more blue than white collar. It seems like it has been a general trend between computerization, robotics and off-shoring that most US cities are less blue collar than they were in the past.

It seems like it has been a general trend between computerization, robotics and off-shoring that most US cities are less blue collar than they were in the past.

Most definitely.

Even with the millions of square feet in the Hobby Lobby distribution center, I bet the majority of their employees are sitting in front of a computer.

There are very few jobs anymore where you aren't sitting a desk most the time.

I will say one of the things I've noticed in my 4+ years of living here is that many folks here cut their teeth in blue collar work and transitioned to white collar. A lot of the folks you meet that work in O&G desk jobs have spent considerable time on a rig or in the field in some manner, and not just as part of some corporate training program. Same could be said for construction industry.

IKEA distribution center in Georgia. 24/7 with only 100 employees.

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One could make the argument that Oklahoma City is neither a White Collar City nor a Blue Collar City, neither dominates the other. When I think of white collar, I think of suit and tie jobs, and when I think of blue collar, I think of manufacturing/warehouse jobs. I think most jobs in Oklahoma City are business casual (call-center, health-care, and tech jobs). So should we say Grey-Collar city? lol...

OKC can be considered the Call-Center capital of the US, I mean we have some big call centers, Dell, AT&T, and AAA, just to name a few. Also we have big ones like Farmers Insurance, Paycom, and Optum.

Most definitely.

Even with the millions of square feet in the Hobby Lobby distribution center, I bet the majority of their employees are sitting in front of a computer.

There are very few jobs anymore where you aren't sitting a desk most the time.

This.

One could argue OKC may have a blue collar mindset/attitude. But just going off the traditional sense of blue collar as manufacturing/hands on type jobs, OKC is surprisingly white collar. Just look at the largest employers. Mostly office jobs.

Funny that the original post says that OKC is more blue collar than Tulsa, but the truth is there are far more manufacturing jobs in Tulsa (http://www.manufacturersnews.com/news/story/top-city-tulsa-sees-manufacturing-jobs-jump-2-point-7-percent-according-to-oklahoma-industrial-directorys-12-month-report). I also not seeing some mass exodus of educated professionals to Dallas or Austin, though I would imagine employment in some fields is better there than here.

This.

One could argue OKC may have a blue collar mindset/attitude. But just going off the traditional sense of blue collar as manufacturing/hands on type jobs, OKC is surprisingly white collar. Just look at the largest employers. Mostly office jobs.

Funny that the original post says that OKC is more blue collar than Tulsa, but the truth is there are far more manufacturing jobs in Tulsa (http://www.manufacturersnews.com/news/story/top-city-tulsa-sees-manufacturing-jobs-jump-2-point-7-percent-according-to-oklahoma-industrial-directorys-12-month-report). I also not seeing some mass exodus of educated professionals to Dallas or Austin, though I would imagine employment is some fields is better there than here.

10 years ago there was a lot of educated professionals leaving for Dallas, Austin, etc. Today that trend as slowed and continues slowing. OKC has the advantage of not (yet) having the fierce job market competition places like Austin have. That gives people an advantage when job searching here vs there.

The good thing about OKC is that if you want a job, and have at least a high-school education, or a college degree, you should have no problem finding a job. There are many "call-center" entry level jobs for college-grads or college students making $24,000/yr - $31,000/yr. At $31,000/yr you could afford a decent apartment and car.

10 years ago there was a lot of educated professionals leaving for Dallas, Austin, etc. Today that trend as slowed and continues slowing. OKC has the advantage of not (yet) having the fierce job market competition places like Austin have. That gives people an advantage when job searching here vs there.

My apologies bchris02....I think I misread your first post. But yes you are largely right.

There are also many more educated people moving to OKC for job opportunities.

OKC is growing pretty quickly now (close to a 20% 10-year clip) so you know there is a good amount of new people moving in.

We know the Boeing people are well-educated, as are those moved here from Houston by Devon.


Also, OKC has a program to reward employers adding new jobs. If you look at those reports, almost all the positions are highly-paid and definitely not blue collar.



BTW, manufacturing and distribution jobs have been largely replaced with customer service and call center types of positions at the lower end of the pay scale.

One thing I noticed in the DFW Metroplex is that they have a lot of "big box distribution center jobs". In many of the suburbs and outlying cities, you can find big distribution centers for CVS, Wal-Mart, Walgreens etc. These distrubtion centers employ hundreds of people at a time at like $10-$12/hr, then you have big box apartment complexes right next to them, with fast food restaurants, and a Wal-Mart, good set-up? I say yes, there is work to be done, no matter what the pay, people receiving a paycheck will provide a boost to the city's economy one way or the other, that is why the economy in DFW is so successful. Every employer that OKC brings does not need to be high-paying engineer or tech jobs.

This is an interesting concept to me... I think that it is kind of a difficult thing here in OKC to classify blue-collar versus white-collar. I think in some other cities that usually means "rich versus poor." But, it's not that cut and dry here, for sure. One thing I see a lot of here are people that do what would be normally considered a blue-collar labor type job, but actually make more white-collar type money. You know like the oilfield worker that drives a $50,000 truck, and whatnot.

Plus, I think OKC's relatively low cost of living blurs the line a bit... It seems like to me that a lot of people have really nice houses here, but it's not any sort of indicator as to whether they work behind a desk or performing manual labor.

The lines have been blurred with the spread of technology, but there's still a clear division between people who simply use technology, and those that have a mastery of it and design it. Because of this I think it's somewhat clearer to talk in terms of degrees.

OKC has a much lower percentage of people with college degrees than other cities the same size, and significantly lower percentages than the national average. So by the numbers we must therefore have fewer engineers, fewer scientists, and fewer medical experts than other places. Tulsa actually has about 1% more degreed folks than OKC does, and so it is possible that is what you're noticing. Whether or not real I've also noticed a more intellectual air in Tulsa as well. I'm not entirely sure what all factors may be driving that.

It is getting better here in OKC, but it is getting so much better so much more quickly in all the other major cities it is a bit disheartening. Better companies moving to the area will drive the number higher, faster, out of necessity. So there's still hope.

The good thing about OKC is that if you want a job, and have at least a high-school education, or a college degree, you should have no problem finding a job. There are many "call-center" entry level jobs for college-grads or college students making $24,000/yr - $31,000/yr. At $31,000/yr you could afford a decent apartment and car. Why would I want a job working in a call center when I have a college degree? Not to sound snobby or it is "beneath me mindset". "Most" call center jobs are entry level, require minimal skills and basic computer skills. I did not waste years of college to aspire to be a call center rep. Those jobs are a dime a dozen and a extremely high, turnover attrition rate. No Thanks:)

Why would I want a job working in a call center when I have a college degree? Not to sound snobby or it is "beneath me mindset". "Most" call center jobs are entry level, require minimal skills and basic computer skills. I did not waste years of college to aspire to be a call center rep. Those jobs are a dime a dozen and a extremely high, turnover attrition rate. No Thanks:)

Of course a person with a college degree does not want to work in a call center, but the point im trying to make is that if one had a hard time finding a job out of college there is work available until they find their "career job".

I worked at a call center for two years with a Master's degree until I finally got my break, and now I have a great job and receiving the salary I deserve.

OKC is very much blue collar. We lose our educated to bigger cities and most immigrants are from rural backgrounds.

But rather than working at a call center, getting an associates in a STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) field is the most advantageous course for young people in today's education marketplace. Of course the most profitable schools (private schools like Vatterott and expensive schools like OU) having marketing deparments designed to keep kids from making the smart choice, public community colleges.

Of course, what were we thinking. A public community college and an associate degree is "always" the most advantageous choice for students. LOL

There is no doubt that is good decision for many but to say that is the most advantageous is far fetched.

OKC is very much blue collar. We lose our educated to bigger cities and most immigrants are from rural backgrounds.

But rather than working at a call center, getting an associates in a STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) field is the most advantageous course for young people in today's education marketplace. Of course the most profitable schools (private schools like Vatterott and expensive schools like OU) having marketing deparments designed to keep kids from making the smart choice, public community colleges.

I know this was very much the case in the past. Do most young, educated people still leave OKC for Dallas, Austin, Houston, etc after graduating college? I thought that was starting to change given OKC's recent improvements. I also thought OKC was starting to become a more desirable place for young professionals, which it was not in the past.

Why would I want a job working in a call center when I have a college degree? Not to sound snobby or it is "beneath me mindset". "Most" call center jobs are entry level, require minimal skills and basic computer skills. I did not waste years of college to aspire to be a call center rep. Those jobs are a dime a dozen and a extremely high, turnover attrition rate. No Thanks:)

I strongly agree with you here. This was why I left Charlotte. I was doing customer service in a call center there and couldn't find anything else. A lot of people with degrees there worked in call centers, I thought it was strange. I do want to say though that not all call centers are created equal. Some are much higher level, especially when you get into technical support, and a degree actually helps.


The lines have been blurred with the spread of technology, but there's still a clear division between people who simply use technology, and those that have a mastery of it and design it. Because of this I think it's somewhat clearer to talk in terms of degrees.

OKC has a much lower percentage of people with college degrees than other cities the same size, and significantly lower percentages than the national average. So by the numbers we must therefore have fewer engineers, fewer scientists, and fewer medical experts than other places. Tulsa actually has about 1% more degreed folks than OKC does, and so it is possible that is what you're noticing. Whether or not real I've also noticed a more intellectual air in Tulsa as well. I'm not entirely sure what all factors may be driving that.

It is getting better here in OKC, but it is getting so much better so much more quickly in all the other major cities it is a bit disheartening. Better companies moving to the area will drive the number higher, faster, out of necessity. So there's still hope.

Lately I've met a lot of educated people who moved to OKC from Tulsa. I agree with you that Tulsa has traditionally seen less brain drain than OKC which is probably why it still has more of a 'white collar' feel than OKC.

There is no doubt that is good decision for many but to say that is the most advantageous is far fetched.
It's not far fetched when a student complements their associates with a bachelors at a four year school.
OCCC has several ABET accredited programs in the STEM fields, and their credit transfers to even more ABET accredited four year programs in state.

The problem as bchris mentioned of brain drain is still alive and well. Specific politicians have made it a point to combat the perception but the facts haven't really changed. For instance there are only around 45 computer science undergraduate students at OU. A major step in reforming higher ed and making Oklahoma more intellectual would be to make the STEM fields free for accepted in state students. The program would explode and the spillover effect would be felt all over the state.

I love Oklahoma City and im sure you all do, but lets be real honest folks. Oklahoma City is "Blue Collar" to the core and i dont see that changing much very soon. Oklahoma City is pick up trucks and wrangler jeans and a t-shirt. I know this is a culture thing but stay here for a few weeks and im sorry you will not get any "White Collar" feel. Nightlife here is very red dirt country, Oklahoma City just hasnt seen enough transplants from the coast yet to ever get that "White Collar" feel. Oklahoma City is well, like i said before pick up trucks, wrangler jeans, and a t-shirt and a "not in my backyard" type attitude.

I love Oklahoma City and im sure you all do, but lets be real honest folks. Oklahoma City is "Blue Collar" to the core and i dont see that changing much very soon. Oklahoma City is pick up trucks and wrangler jeans and a t-shirt. I know this is a culture thing but stay here for a few weeks and im sorry you will not get any "White Collar" feel. Nightlife here is very red dirt country, Oklahoma City just hasnt seen enough transplants from the coast yet to ever get that "White Collar" feel. Oklahoma City is well, like i said before pick up trucks, wrangler jeans, and a t-shirt and a "not in my backyard" type attitude.

In my opinion, this describes the majority of the OKC metro area. However, there are areas that do not have the 'red-dirt' feel, most notably Edmond as well as parts of downtown. The brain drain in my opinion is something that feeds off itself. When I lived in Little Rock, I can say the city was noticeably more white collar than OKC, more like a small version of Tulsa. However, most young, educated people I met hated it there and went to Memphis or Dallas on the weekends and were always searching for an opportunity to get out of Little Rock to somewhere larger as soon as they could. I have heard people say the same thing about Tulsa. While OKC has an image problem that is the cause of some of the brain drain, I imagine educated people who do live here are happier than they are in some other places. If this city could just develop a cool, urban district on the level of what they already have in Tulsa it would be much better. Correct me if I am wrong.

Edmond is very provincial and has its own set of problems. My family is active in charitable work and I can tell you the Edmondites don't compare to the old money Oklahoma Cityans when it comes to giving. Inner OKC and Edmond are like mirror images of one another. One is interesting and diverse, the other is boring and superficial. It struck me a couple of days ago that OKC may be one of the largest American cities without a 4 year public school within its city limits. This sidestepping of the importance of education is what has led to only halting urban renewal despite the healthy local economy.

So not having a 4 year public university within the city limits is sidestepping education? Do you want to just create a 4 year college just to say we have it? That's a stretch.

10 years ago there was a lot of educated professionals leaving for Dallas, Austin, etc. Today that trend as slowed and continues slowing. OKC has the advantage of not (yet) having the fierce job market competition places like Austin have. That gives people an advantage when job searching here vs there.
Most of the younger people that I knew in Austin (who were not originally from Austin) moved there because of lifestyle and not jobs, many of those were from places like Georgia or Louisiana. They moved there liking the place and hoping they could find a job, most were reps in the interiors industry. The ones my age moved there for jobs in the 80-90's and stayed.


Why would I want a job working in a call center when I have a college degree? Not to sound snobby or it is "beneath me mindset". "Most" call center jobs are entry level, require minimal skills and basic computer skills. I did not waste years of college to aspire to be a call center rep. Those jobs are a dime a dozen and a extremely high, turnover attrition rate. No Thanks:)
Not all who work in call centers are CSR's, there are management people. I also think that perception is changing about OKC in that industry as many have seemed to locate in smaller markets like Midland and Lubbock, they have some large AT&T call centers there.


I love Oklahoma City and im sure you all do, but lets be real honest folks. Oklahoma City is "Blue Collar" to the core and i dont see that changing much very soon. Oklahoma City is pick up trucks and wrangler jeans and a t-shirt. I know this is a culture thing but stay here for a few weeks and im sorry you will not get any "White Collar" feel. Nightlife here is very red dirt country, Oklahoma City just hasnt seen enough transplants from the coast yet to ever get that "White Collar" feel. Oklahoma City is well, like i said before pick up trucks, wrangler jeans, and a t-shirt and a "not in my backyard" type attitude.
I didn't own a pair of cowboy boots or Wrangler jeans until I moved from OKC to Dallas in 1991, didn't have a pickup until I moved from OKC to Austin in 2003. Groing up in OKC I was a Polo dress shirt and slacks kind of guy and we had plenty of places to go out at. There are plenty of "white collar types" headed to country bars in the DFW area. I knew plenty of people from the "coasts" in Dallas or Austin who loved the country side of things as well and went there way more often than I did. There are pickups all over the major cities of Texas, a nice pickup can cost the same as a BMW or Mercedes and are just as plush.

OKC is very much a mix, depending upon what you are looking for as are most of the cities in this part of the country. If the "coastal" mentality is what you are looking for, then by all means move there.

No a urban public university would serve the modern urban population. OU and OSU, as well as the other land grant schools were built over 100 years ago. These schools require an extra $12000/year minimum in transportation and residential costs compared to a commuter school. The needs have changed, needs that include affordable urban 4 year degrees in technology especially. Upgrading OSU-OKC to a four year school would be the cheapest route.

Most of the younger people that I knew in Austin (who were not originally from Austin) moved there because of lifestyle and not jobs, many of those were from places like Georgia or Louisiana. They moved there liking the place and hoping they could find a job, most were reps in the interiors industry. The ones my age moved there for jobs in the 80-90's and stayed.

I would agree that young people who leave OKC are probably more apt to do it because it doesn't offer the lifestyle they seek rather than because they can't find jobs here. Things are slowly changing but by and large this is a very 'get married and have a house full of kids by age 30' kind of city. The more OKC offers for active people in their 20s and 30s, the more it will retain its college graduates in my opinion.


Edmond is very provincial and has its own set of problems. My family is active in charitable work and I can tell you the Edmondites don't compare to the old money Oklahoma Cityans when it comes to giving. Inner OKC and Edmond are like mirror images of one another. One is interesting and diverse, the other is boring and superficial. It struck me a couple of days ago that OKC may be one of the largest American cities without a 4 year public school within its city limits. This sidestepping of the importance of education is what has led to only halting urban renewal despite the healthy local economy.

I don't know, I don't really see how you can say OKC isn't friendly to urban renewal with all the improvements going on in its core right now. I will point out that it still has a long way to go but it started from a much more dire situation than most cities (imagine how long it will take to completely revitalize Detroit). OKC in particular is very pro-development, sometimes too much so, as compared to other places. As for a four-year university, I guess I've never considered that as being a real problem because there are so many in the metro area even though they may not be in the OKC city limits. UCO in Edmond for example has tuition rates right along with the urban universities in other states you reference.

So not having a 4 year public university within the city limits is sidestepping education? Do you want to just create a 4 year college just to say we have it? That's a stretch.

Hey, it worked for Claremore. :D

No a urban public university would serve the modern urban population. OU and OSU, as well as the other land grant schools were built over 100 years ago. These schools require an extra $12000/year minimum in transportation and residential costs compared to a commuter school. The needs have changed, needs that include affordable urban 4 year degrees in technology especially. Upgrading OSU-OKC to a four year school would be the cheapest route.

UCO is a commuter school and most people spend the same amount of money traveling to Edmond that they would going to OSU-OKC.

And the answer isn't to open a brand new university to steal students from UCO and OU...The answer is commuter rail that arrives exactly at those locations so students who live by Crossroads Mall can jump on the N/S line and land at either campus...and it should be free for students. Great place to do your last minute homework too.

Seriously. It's either close UCO and open it up in OKC or wait 50 years until this state can support a 4th major public university...

Because UCO is 14.5 miles from downtown OKC, it isn't a realistic option for OKC students as a commuter school. A progressive location for a university would be downtown OKC itself. It is hard to argue with people when they won't state what their real fears are.

I would agree that young people who leave OKC are probably more apt to do it because it doesn't offer the lifestyle they seek rather than because they can't find jobs here. Things are slowly changing but by and large this is a very 'get married and have a house full of kids by age 30' kind of city. The more OKC offers for active people in their 20s and 30s, the more it will retain its college graduates in my opinion.
It is surprising how many don't fit into this, I was 39 when I got married (my only marriage). Granted, most singles at that age are divorced with kids but there are more than I realized that were in the same category even in OKC. I ended up marrying someone in a similar position in Austin (why I moved there), 38 and never married and she was from a small West Texas town that most married out of high school, even more so than OKC.

I love Oklahoma City and im sure you all do, but lets be real honest folks. Oklahoma City is "Blue Collar" to the core and i dont see that changing much very soon. Oklahoma City is pick up trucks and wrangler jeans and a t-shirt. I know this is a culture thing but stay here for a few weeks and im sorry you will not get any "White Collar" feel. Nightlife here is very red dirt country, Oklahoma City just hasnt seen enough transplants from the coast yet to ever get that "White Collar" feel. Oklahoma City is well, like i said before pick up trucks, wrangler jeans, and a t-shirt and a "not in my backyard" type attitude.

Do you know how many people in my very white collar office wear boots on a regular basis? Go to a trendy or nice restaurant DT on a Friday night and see how many people are wearing boots. These same people are about to plop down $200 for a meal. A nice pair of boots costs in excess of $300. This has less to do with being white or blue collar and more to do with the local dress of this area. Same deal with Nashville or Texas. Frankly, most places in the SE or SW part of the nation dress more casually than people on the coasts. Again, its not a question of whether an area is white or blue collar.


Because UCO is 14.5 miles from downtown OKC, it isn't a realistic option for OKC students as a commuter school. A progressive location for a university would be downtown OKC itself. It is hard to argue with people when they won't state what their real fears are.

For the record there is a downtown consortium of local colleges at the Ron Norrick Library. And Langston has a branch campus off Lincoln that serves the NE part of town.

And are we really complaining about a 15 mile drive? Plenty of people do it everyday. UCO is the same distance from downtown OKC as UTD Dallas is from their downtown. Public transportation could be improved though. OU has a fantastic shuttle (Sooner Express) between OKC and Norman.

Sooner Express is nice to have, but it isn't all that fantastic, due to its limited operation.
I sometimes use it myself. But, that's only if I can be free and clear of my business before 9 am, or can bring along other work if I know I won't wrap up the main tasks until between 10-2:30.

If I can not pop in pop out early am, the first afternoon bus back is not until nearly 3 pm, with other runs at the tail end of the typical work day.

There is no night time service either, in either direction. More's the pity. It would be great if there were more options between Norman and OKC, for students, and folks like me who enjoy coming into OKC, but don't truly have need for a vehicle while here and could do without the hassle of having to park/retrieve one.

Sooner Express is nice to have, but it isn't all that fantastic, due to its limited operation.
I sometimes use it myself. But, that's only if I can be free and clear of my business before 9 am, or can bring along other work if I know I won't wrap up the main tasks until between 10-2:30.

If I can not pop in pop out early am, the first afternoon bus back is not until nearly 3 pm, with other runs at the tail end of the typical work day.

There is no night time service either, in either direction. More's the pity. It would be great if there were more options between Norman and OKC, for students, and folks like me who enjoy coming into OKC, but don't truly have need for a vehicle while here and could do without the hassle of having to park/retrieve one.

I think it's great how you use public transportation. I remember you posting about your son using the cheap bus service to Texas, so he comes by it honestly. That's good to see. I bet you're a great dad! In fact, no question about it. It's funny how you can get a feel for a person just from these forums.

Because UCO is 14.5 miles from downtown OKC, it isn't a realistic option for OKC students as a commuter school. A progressive location for a university would be downtown OKC itself. It is hard to argue with people when they won't state what their real fears are.

I'm with adaniel here about complaining about a 15 mile drive. Like he said, Dallas' four year public institution is about that from downtown. Improving public transit from UCO to the urban core would solve two needs, so I like where you are headed.

As far as as you last sentence, not sure what you're getting at, other than trying to pick a fight or talk down to those of us disagreeing with you here. I don't have any "fears" regarding this topic.

Drive through a community college parking lot some time and see what you find. I've seen young women attempting to do their own car repairs in the parking lot in their school clothes. I'm not talking about Dallas as a role model for transportation -- everyone knows it is even more car-centric than this city.

The state is 37% white collar and 63% blue.

Workers by Occupational Category | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation (http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/blue-and-white-collar-workers/)

I don't imagine either city is much different.

Because UCO is 14.5 miles from downtown OKC, it isn't a realistic option for OKC students as a commuter school. A progressive location for a university would be downtown OKC itself. It is hard to argue with people when they won't state what their real fears are.

Oklahoma definitely has a surplus of 4 year colleges and opening a new one downtown makes absolutely no sense at all. OKC students are not lacking in education opportunities because of that.

Drive through a community college parking lot some time and see what you find. I've seen young women attempting to do their own car repairs in the parking lot in their school clothes. I'm not talking about Dallas as a role model for transportation -- everyone knows it is even more car-centric than this city.

What is it exactly that you're wanting?

Do you want a commuter school that people don't drive to?

Do you want a school close enough to residence so that a car is totally unnecessary?

Do you just want a school that's centrally located?

Here are the locations of Oklahoma's public universities:


Cameron University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_University), Lawton, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawton,_Oklahoma) ($2,571)



East Central University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Central_University), Ada, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada,_Oklahoma) ($2,663)



Langston University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langston_University), Langston, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langston,_Oklahoma) ($2,409)



Northeastern State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeastern_State_University), Tahlequah, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahlequah,_Oklahoma) ($2,895)



Northwestern Oklahoma State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Oklahoma_State_University), Alva, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alva,_Oklahoma) ($3,232)



Oklahoma Panhandle State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_Panhandle_State), Goodwell, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwell,_Oklahoma) ($2,490)



Oklahoma State University - Okmulgee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_State_University_-_Okmulgee), Okmulgee, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okmulgee,_Oklahoma) ($2,535)



Oklahoma State University - Stillwater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_State_University_-_Stillwater), Stillwater, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stillwater,_Oklahoma) (3,585)



Rogers State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_State_University), Claremore, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremore,_Oklahoma) ($2,483)



Southeastern Oklahoma State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Oklahoma_State_University), Durant, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durant,_Oklahoma) ($3,249)



Southwestern Oklahoma State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_Oklahoma_State_University), Weatherford, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherford,_Oklahoma) ($3,000)



University of Central Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Central_Oklahoma), Edmond, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond,_Oklahoma), ($3,315)



University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oklahoma_Health_Sciences_Center), Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City,_Oklahoma) ($3,261)



University of Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oklahoma), Norman, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman,_Oklahoma) ($3,261)



University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Science_and_Arts_of_Oklahoma), Chickasha, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickasha,_Oklahoma) ($2,304)


None of them would be more beneficial to more people than a downtown OKC campus. Working adults would be able to take night classes and students would be able to take advantage of cheap rents in nearby neighborhoods while keeping part-time jobs. How we have a public university in the panhandle but not OKC is absurd.

Here are the locations of Oklahoma's public universities:
...
None of them would be more beneficial to more people than a downtown OKC campus. Working adults would be able to take night classes and students would be able to take advantage of cheap rents in nearby neighborhoods while keeping part-time jobs. How we have a public university in the panhandle but not OKC is absurd.

What? Not one in Tulsa, either? How in the hell can our cities grow without one?
Really, though, while our state-funded university system is absurdly unwieldly, did you notice that your list includes one in Norman, Oklahoma City and Edmond?

Just an observation, next time you hear tell of folks at the capitol talk of closing a public state university, rather than wonder who might close, it's probably a safer bet to wonder where another one is about to open.

And I may be mistaken, but don't several institutions already offer classes inside the metro?

Most of the university classes in OKC limits are probably from private institutions, which for some reason was excluded for the purpose of this discussion. Though both OU and OSU have some facilities and classes in the metro.

Here are the locations of Oklahoma's public universities:

...

None of them would be more beneficial to more people than a downtown OKC campus.

This is a broad generalization that has nothing to do with actual education. If they meet your demographic and want to study Industrial Engineering then it would be in no way more beneficial to have them to have a school downtown that stands no chance of competing with OU in that quality of program...same could be said of several programs at UCO (Nursing, Psychology, off the top of my head).

And we're not discussing the merits of Universities in Chickasha, Woodward, Goodwell, and Claremore. We're talking specifically about OKC and how another public university is going to coexist with OU and UCO, 2 of the 3 largest and best public universities in the state.


Working adults would be able to take night classes and students would be able to take advantage of cheap rents in nearby neighborhoods while keeping part-time jobs.

Cheap rents in "nearby" neighborhoods to downtown OKC...I simply do not see this as resembling anything close to reality, and it's only going to get worse as areas like Classen-Ten-Penn et. al. become the targets of gentrification. The core is not going to have much of any "cheap rents". And the jobs that students tend to hold while they go to school are jobs that you can find just as easily in Norman or Edmond as you can in Downtown OKC, if not better.

OKC is at least 50 years away from the type of density and walkability that would make possible a high percentage of students staying at home and walking to school. If your qualm is a 5 to 10 minute drive over a 15 to 25 minute drive, I'm sorry, but you have no argument worth acknowledging.


How we have a public university in the panhandle but not OKC is absurd.

Again, OKC is pancaked by 2 schools that still need plenty of attention themselves for Oklahoma to have premier higher education in our boarders. Adding another school will only hurt the big three and spread already scarce resources even thinner.

Why would I want a job working in a call center when I have a college degree? Not to sound snobby or it is "beneath me mindset". "Most" call center jobs are entry level, require minimal skills and basic computer skills. I did not waste years of college to aspire to be a call center rep. Those jobs are a dime a dozen and a extremely high, turnover attrition rate. No Thanks:)
Well, that depends on your experience level when you leave school. If you went through college without gaining any real-world experience - either through internships or an entry level job in your field of interest - there will be very little interest in your resume for anything other than entry level jobs. This is especially true for technical positions. In my experience, with the speed of change in technology, college teaches you how to learn, not everything you need to know to do the job. Nobody wants to trust their mission-critical systems to a greenhorn straight out of college. You gotta pay your dues, kid. :)
[/Grizzled old man mode]

Most of the university classes in OKC limits are probably from private institutions, which for some reason was excluded for the purpose of this discussion.
The role of government is to serve the governed. Government should use its resources to do the most good for the most people. That's called utilitarianism and is a basic premise of democracy.

...it would be in no way more beneficial to have them to have a school downtown that stands no chance of competing with OU in that quality of program...same could be said of several programs at UCO (Nursing, Psychology, off the top of my head).

Again, OKC is pancaked by 2 schools that still need plenty of attention themselves for Oklahoma to have premier higher education in our boarders. Adding another school will only hurt the big three and spread already scarce resources even thinner.
A public downtown university wouldn't have to "compete" with OU. There is an correlation between income level and having a bachelor's degree. There isn't a correlation between an associate's degree and income. Meaning associate's degrees are worthless in the marketplace and bachelor's are valuable. Having an accessible affordable university downtown would boost local incomes, regardless of how they compared to OU/OSU.

A public downtown university wouldn't have to "compete" with OU.

This is not true and you know it. People choose UCO over OU all the time because it's the cheaper option, even if OU is the better school.


There is an correlation between income level and having a bachelor's degree. There isn't a correlation between an associate's degree and income. Meaning associate's degrees are worthless in the marketplace and bachelor's are valuable.

Yes. What's your point? Are you assuming that there is a wide swath of people that would go to a public accredited university if only there were one in OKC proper, and downtown OKC to be specific? I would be willing to bet money that a vast majority of the people who live in and around downtown already have a bachelors degree or have no intention of ever getting one because their business is already successful and it would be a waste of time and money for them.

So now we're talking about people who live on NW 10th and Rockwell or SE 59th and Sunnylane who just don't have the means of transportation to enroll at OU or UCO (nevermind that if you don't have the means of transportation, you likely don't have the means to pay for college) needing a downtown university that they're still not going to have the transportation available to attend.

If there is a number of people not attending OU/UCO because of distance from downtown OKC, that number is surely negligible or unable to be helped.


Having an accessible affordable university downtown would boost local incomes, regardless of how they compared to OU/OSU.

You keep saying these things based on a variety of assumptions which you have yet to substantiate in this discussion. I would *LOVE* to see a public university in downtown OKC...but that's in the land of ideology with no real foundation in the reality of what the OKC metro area already looks like.

Norman was a sundown town until the 1960s (book) (http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483). Edmond continues to harbor racism and provincialism. I would imagine Stillwater to be the most xenophobic of all three. The public universities in central Oklahoma were built in these three towns very much to keep certain people out, not to facilitate the education of willing prospects. The absence of a public four year school in Oklahoma City limits is a shameful vestige of racial oppression and anti-urban fears. Keep the working class in the dark and allow education only to the privileged few.

The absence of a public four year school in Oklahoma City limits is a shameful vestige of racial oppression and anti-urban fears. Keep the working class in the dark and allow education only to the privileged few.Y'know, I don't think I've ever seen a more racist and class-struggle post anywhere on this board (although I avoid the Politics areas religiously). Both Stillwater and Norman were picked for the major land-grant colleges specifically to make it easier for the rural population to make use of them. OSU was originally Oklahoma Agricultural and Mechanical College, not a university at all. UCO was Central State Teachers College, aimed primarily at turning out school teachers for the rural population. My mother took her first two years at East Central State Teachers College, got her teaching certificate, and at 19 was teaching in a one-room school a few miles west of Davis near the original Fort Arbuckle site. The next year, she moved over to Mead (now under Lake Texoma in Bryan County) and there met my father. Although he had only completed the third grade before leaving school to go to work, she convinced him to enroll at A&M under the WW1 version of the GI Bill, and they both graduated there in the early 1920s, with lifetime teaching certificates. Then in 1930 he went back to get his Master's, which he did shortly after my birth in 1931.

"Allow education only to the privileged few" is pure bovine excrement and unworthy of this forum. Granted that we still do have far too much racism in this nation and in this state, but I believe we've come a long way during my lifetime, and today's climate of reverse racism is being definitely counterproductive. However I've seen more mixed-race couples in Edmond than I've ever seen in Oklahoma City, and that's something that was almost unheard-of 50 years ago...

Sorry for the rant, but this post hit a very hot button for me!

Only took him/her a full 2 pages to finally come out and say what they were referring to. I had a feeling this whole time that was the motivating factor of this discussion.

Thoreau said "Dreams are the touchstones of our characters." My dream for Oklahoma City is for a public university downtown. Take it for what its worth.

To add to what Jim Kyle posted there was also a time relatively few people went to college, they were not an economic driver for most cities/towns they were in. Relatively few people could afford to go to college so it tended to be the children of the wealthy or those smart enough to receive scholarships and there weren't that many scholarships handed out 100+ years ago when most of those schools were located. The old joke was that OSU was in Stillwater because McAlester chose the prison as it brought more economic impact to the area. The towns weren't chosen to "exclude" minorities as most minorities lived in rural areas and those like the black population had their own school in Langston, when the schools were located there wasn't a worry about people of color at the schools because they weren't allowed. The truth is "urban areas" in this part of the country really weren't traditionally urban like those in the northeast. It really wasn't post World War II that the urban areas started growing at a high rate and that was true for people of all colors.

Many metro areas outside the northeast do not have a major college in their downtown area, in fact most that have a major university near downtown it was either located at the edge of town (like UT-Austin, Rice, Houston, SMU, University of Denver) or they came along in recent years like here in Denver with Metro State, UC-Denver and the Community College of Denver. Metro State was established in 1965 as a second tier college (to UC-Boulder and Colorado State), UC-Denver was established as an extension campus of UC-Boulder in 1912 but was really nothing until they co-located on the Auraria Campus with Metro State. There is the Community College of Denver (established in 1967) also co-located on the Auraria Campus. Those have really grown in the past 15 years and a lot of building projects are going on there now to expand them.

I can understand the desire to have a campus downtown but you have to understand the history of why universities and colleges are located in most states to understand why the urban university in the major city of most states is relatively new.

Norman was a sundown town until the 1960s (book) (http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483).

I'd like to know what evidence you have about that. I grew up in Norman in the 40's, 50's, and 60's and that's not the Norman I knew. As far as racial discrimination in colleges is concerned, that has been true about most colleges in the country if you want go back far enough in history. And those colleges did not have to be located away from minorities to accomplish that. They just practiced discriminatory admissions policies. All in all, this has nothing to do with trying to prove whatever point it is that you're trying to make. To suggest that those locations were chosen to keep some people from attending is just asinine.

Landrun...I'm happy to hear reasons for why putting a college downtown addresses OKs/OKCs needs. You have as of yet to provide any sort of specific reasoning. You can't throw out tautologies and expect us to just go along with you.

UCO is OKC's urban university. It's not in the OKC city limits but it fills the niche that a university closer to downtown would.

I don't like the premise of this thread.

I'd like to know what evidence you have about that. I grew up in Norman in the 40's, 50's, and 60's and that's not the Norman I knew. As far as racial discrimination in colleges is concerned, that has been true about most colleges in the country if you want go back far enough in history. And those colleges did not have to be located away from minorities to accomplish that. They just practiced discriminatory admissions policies. All in all, this has nothing to do with trying to prove whatever point it is that you're trying to make. To suggest that those locations were chosen to keep some people from attending is just asinine.

While I am in no way defending LandRunOkie's rather wild assumptions about race being a factor in not locating a college downtown, he or she is correct about Norman being a sunset town back in the day.

I am sure as a native of Norman you are familiar with George Henderson, the first black tenured professor at OU. Here is an interview he did with OETA you can view here (http://www.oeta.tv/acw/blog/1305-a-conversation-withgeorge-henderson.html). When he first moved to Norman in 1967, he could not find a realtor to work with him to buy a home. My own grandparents can recount stories of black laborers who worked in Norman but had to live in OKC, and they had to be out of town before 6. During those days there was no I-35, just Highway 77. Most towns of size in this state had at a minimum a "black side of town", but as recently as 1960, Norman was less than 1% AA.

Of course I think things are much better now, and I frankly have never had a problem in Norman. One could argue that Barry Switzer's aggressive recruitment of black players to OU extinguished a lot of the tension in Norman, or at least quicker than most towns.

Race couldn't have been a factor in not locating a university downtown. That's a totally silly notion. Universities were totally segregated and there was no plan in sight for integration when that happened, so I don't see how race would have anything to do with it.