I have a question up on my blog that I'd like to get some answers to: OKC?s Architecture Community | Urban Lake Effect (http://urbanlakeeffect.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/okcs-architecture-community/)

Why do developers in OKC choose so many out-of-town architects (and interior designers and landscape architects)?

Pete pointed out to me that CHK always uses Rand. I forgot to mention that, and MidtownR generally uses Brian Fitzsimmons (which I vaguely noted). Beside them and TAP, I don't see many local architects getting the bigger (re)development work in the core now. Some locals might be selected to be architect of record for Oklahoma law, but that sometimes means they have little actual input.

I don't know, but my father in law is an architect in Wichita and would love to get in on what's going on down here (I know that doesn't answer your question, sorry :) )

I have a question up on my blog that I'd like to get some answers to: OKC?s Architecture Community | Urban Lake Effect (http://urbanlakeeffect.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/okcs-architecture-community/)

Why do developers in OKC choose so many out-of-town architects (and interior designers and landscape architects)?

Pete pointed out to me that CHK always uses Rand. I forgot to mention that, and MidtownR generally uses Brian Fitzsimmons (which I vaguely noted). Beside them and TAP, I don't see many local architects getting the bigger (re)development work in the core now. Some locals might be selected to be architect of record for Oklahoma law, but that sometimes means they have little actual input.I believe the answers are relationship and cost not necessarily in that order.

In several recent proposals where we would have been partners the proposed architects' fees were much lower than what we would have had using a local company. The reason, of course, was that the proposed architect had done many similar projects and would be modifying previous plans. Nothing really wrong with doing that and makes a lot of sense financially. Saving even a small percentage on a project can be a huge factor. Pus there is a time savings that can be very important.

Other projects that I know about involved long standing relationships that are not easily changed. Nothing wrong with that either and can definitely save months of time which is huge.

Uncomfortable Question: Why are Local Architecture Firms Losing Work to Out-of-Town Firms? | News OK (http://newsok.com/uncomfortable-question-why-are-local-architecture-firms-losing-work-to-out-of-town-firms/article/3846165)

I believe the answers are relationship and cost not necessarily in that order.

In several recent proposals where we would have been partners the proposed architects' fees were much lower than what we would have had using a local company. The reason, of course, was that the proposed architect had done many similar projects and would be modifying previous plans. Nothing really wrong with doing that and makes a lot of sense financially. Saving even a small percentage on a project can be a huge factor. Pus there is a time savings that can be very important.

Other projects that I know about involved long standing relationships that are not easily changed. Nothing wrong with that either and can definitely save months of time which is huge.

Certainly.

My quest for an answer certainly isn't led by any preconceived notion. I'm genuinely curious as to the why.

We know SandRidge hired Rogers Marvel for their entire project and a national landscape architect as well. I've heard SD is very pleased with the work but very unhappy with the budget, as they have gone way over the original projections given by Rogers Marvel.

In most cases, the larger civic projects have gone to locals (Rand Elliott got the call for Bicentennial Park and a lot of the OK River projects) but of course the Myriad Gardens and Project 180 work went to James Burnett. I think it's fair to say OKC lacks landscape architecture firms with big projects on their resume.

Devon also used outside architects (Pickard Chilton) but of course, how many locals have designed a $750 million skyscraper?

The MidtownR group uses almost exclusively locals, and of course Chesapeake gave all their work to Rand Elliott -- Aubrey McClendon has continued to do so on his new offices.

It seems the larger the project, the less likely a local firm will be handling it. Perhaps that will change as they all get the opportunity to grow in their experience.


It should also be noted that few of them do much work outside of OKC.

It should also be noted that few of them do much work outside of OKC.

Other firms do a lot of work outside OKC. Maybe it's a local-marketing issue by companies? None of them do much residential work outside OKC, I'll say that (unless you're talking dorms/barracks).

For instance, LWPB, FSB, Benham (now SAIC), GSB, and Guernsey all do a lot of work outside OKC, mainly for the Federal government. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that over 50% of their architecture revenues are outside OKC.

Government contracts are a different beast.

I just meant that the locals don't seem to be in much demand outside of OKC with commercial developers.

Government contracts are a different beast.

I just meant that the locals don't seem to be in much demand outside of OKC with commercial developers.

Yes, on that point I think you are solid.

If I had my way then all development would be unique and professionally designed including residential. It never ceases to amaze me that design is accorded such low esteem.

So, it begs the question: If they aren't in demand outside of OKC, can you blame local developers for not using them either?

If you were building a huge, multi-million dollar project wouldn't you want someone with a great track record? Considering architecture fees are a small percentage of an overall budget, why not hire a firm that can point to tons of cool projects that are already constructed?

To be fair, there hasn't been that much big commercial construction in OKC in quite some time, so the local firms haven't had much of a chance until lately. They are getting opportunities, though, and I'm sure a few of them will gain the reputation and experience to help them compete down the road.


And to put this another way, which projects by local architects do we think are really great and would justify them getting a shot at a very large development?

HTB was a pretty large and successful local architecture and engineering firm until they screwed themselves with the county jail fiasco. They are now long gone.

It seems the architecture firms here are just now starting to build something after not having much commercial work for the last few decades. And that doesn't happen in the short-term.

Brian Fitzsimmons has been fantastic at adapting old buildings and refreshing them for MidtownR, but I can't recall seeing him do anything from the ground up (other than a few houses). I'd be curious to see what he could do on a large project.

For as much as I know local architects and some of their work, I never really get an understanding of what projects they do.

I think the local firms are a product of the work that has been available to them over the last couple of decades.

They've had to get by with smaller stuff with a fair amount of residential mixed in. If you look at any of their sites you'll almost always see private residences. You think Rogers Marvel or Pickard Chilton or James Burnett are designing homes?

No disrespect to our local architecture community but I don't think they can compete with the big boys just yet. Hopefully some of them will distinguish themselves and get to that point.

And the City and other civic projects have been very generous with the local firms. Most the big projects done by them have been paid for with tax payer money (Main Street parking garage and downtown elementary school by TAP, for example).

You would hope that some of the great talent that left the state and have worked for major firms elsewhere would begin to migrate back and establish firms based on their work in other cities. A very good architect with national projects under their belt would find a very nice and relatively open niche here in OKC.

You would hope that some of the great talent that left the state and have worked for major firms elsewhere would begin to migrate back and establish firms based on their work in other cities. A very good architect with national projects under their belt would find a very nice and relatively open niche here in OKC.

Or maybe a local firm that is big enough could poach a few of them and bring them back?

Yes, it's part of the Brain Drain conundrum. Just because OKC is suddenly on the move doesn't undo decades of erosion in various professional fields.

The first step is to stop the bleeding and provide opportunities for those just leaving college. That seems to be happening.

But it's going to take a while for the professional base to be rebuilt. It's happened in oil & gas but not so much in other fields.


In the meantime, OKC can benefit from bringing in expertise from elsewhere and that seems to be happening in architecture. And in the case of AHMM, a former local boy brought them to OKC for work and now they are opening a small office here. I'm sure more things like that will happen.

Brian Fitzsimmons has been fantastic at adapting old buildings and refreshing them for MidtownR, but I can't recall seeing him do anything from the ground up (other than a few houses). I'd be curious to see what he could do on a large project.

For as much as I know local architects and some of their work, I never really get an understanding of what projects they do.

I love what Fitzsimmons has done with a lot of the historic rehab projects that MidtownR has taken on, but did he also come up with the designs for their new parking garage across the Marion Hotel? If so, I'd prefer he stick with historic rehab projects. That garage proposal is hideous. However, he may surprise me once we get a glimpse of what is proposed for their new project along 10th St.

You would hope that some of the great talent that left the state and have worked for major firms elsewhere would begin to migrate back and establish firms based on their work in other cities. A very good architect with national projects under their belt would find a very nice and relatively open niche here in OKC.


Or maybe a local firm that is big enough could poach a few of them and bring them back?

Both those solutions would be ideal.

It would help bolster competition in the OKC market.

Hopefully MidtownR gives us a chance to see what Fitzsimmons can do with a larger project with all that land they have north of 10th.

The Level project(s) are conventionally financed. The Edge, Bricktown Apartments, all Charlie Nicholas projects are HUD financed projects. There is a tremendous amount of government paperwork required throughout a HUD project. An architect without prior HUD experience is at a great disadvantage. A developer probably wouldn't want to take the risk.

The Level project(s) are conventionally financed. The Edge, Bricktown Apartments, all Charlie Nicholas projects are HUD financed projects. There is a tremendous amount of government paperwork required throughout a HUD project. An architect without prior HUD experience is at a great disadvantage. A developer probably wouldn't want to take the risk.

Great points.

I know GTF (Level, Maywood II and East Bricktown) has tons of HUD projects on their resume.

And having worked with HUD myself, I can attest there are a tremendous amount of hoops to jump through.

I love what Fitzsimmons has done with a lot of the historic rehab projects that MidtownR has taken on, but did he also come up with the designs for their new parking garage across the Marion Hotel? If so, I'd prefer he stick with historic rehab projects. That garage proposal is hideous. However, he may surprise me once we get a glimpse of what is proposed for their new project along 10th St.

I believe they also did the covered parking area behind the Guardian, if that give you any clue.

If I required specialized expertise though I'd expect my local architect to put together a team. That's the way it is done anyway so it would be just a larger team.

Private sector planning in OKC is pretty weak, primarily because of that dominance of civil and structural engineering. Architecture is better off than planning, but it's debatable as to how much.

If OKC is going to truly change for the better and turn the corner into becoming the city that it can be, we've got to do something about this. Planning and design are important, you just can't engineer everything. Engineers aren't trained to understand urban dynamics and things that have generally caused an uproar every now and then with MAPS3.

MAPS1 and 2 were based on a successful coalition of engineering, planning, and architecture. Everybody was working together within City Hall and understand what the other trained professionals were good at AND appreciated them for it. Now it's long been known that this coalition has fallen apart, and what's worse, nobody really seems to care at all.

Private sector planning in OKC is pretty weak, primarily because of that dominance of civil and structural engineering.

To be honest, I'd consider private sector planning in OKC to be null. There are a few people that are AICP (American Institute of Certified Planners), myself included, but the amount of work done by them locally, and on actual planning projects, is minimal at best. Gray Planning Services, based out of Shawnee, has cornered the market on small-town planning and OK, and she's quite successful, but that's minimal. My firm has done a few things locally, but generally if any larger city wants to do planning, the do it in-house or hire out-of-town. Then, when the out-of-town planners come, they usually team with architects, not even the firms that have a planner on staff.

Doh, don't see this thread.

Do you think that if the role of public planning were somehow reasserted that it would have a ripple effect for private sector planning? I think with regards to that, OKC has its own weird dynamic due to our love for the private sector and disdain for anything government.

One could perhaps make the argument, considering the above, that in OKC esp the private sector can make the most planning difference..at least as long as public planning takes more of a public servant/steward role and less of a public advocate role.

How about a brief description of urban planning and what it entails and how it is priced? I honestly don't know about it and have not considered it separately.

Posted a link I just figured out that was already posted. :p

How about a brief description of urban planning and what it entails and how it is priced? I honestly don't know about it and have not considered it separately.

I don't know if I could write a brief description. :)

Planners cover a variety of fields, but in the simplest sense, they are supposed to be the visionaries who help create a comprehensive plan for how a city/county/etc should grow over the next 20-30 years. Many cities in Oklahoma have plans, as they are allowed by statute (not required, I don't think). The plan is what drives zoning decisions. Pricing is variable, but you'd expect to pay a planner just like an architect. Principle, associate, intern, etc.

I don't know if I could write a brief description. :)

Planners cover a variety of fields, but in the simplest sense, they are supposed to be the visionaries who help create a comprehensive plan for how a city/county/etc should grow over the next 20-30 years. Many cities in Oklahoma have plans, as they are allowed by statute (not required, I don't think). The plan is what drives zoning decisions. Pricing is variable, but you'd expect to pay a planner just like an architect. Principle, associate, intern, etc.
So really there is no role then in private development.

So really there is no role then in private development.

There is but mostly in large mixed-use developments, which don't happen in Oklahoma. UNP would have been a planners dream, but it doesn't appear they used one (or if they did he was either not very good or they ignored him).

There is but mostly in large mixed-use developments, which don't happen in Oklahoma. UNP would have been a planners dream, but it doesn't appear they used one (or if they did he was either not very good or they ignored him).

Yeah, private developers use planners in bigger projects like that. I do see a role in smaller projects as an advisor, but more for urban-design focused planners than your traditional comprehensive planner.

Yeah, private developers use planners in bigger projects like that. I do see a role in smaller projects as an advisor, but more for urban-design focused planners than your traditional comprehensive planner.

I thought the was the role the city's Planning Department was supposed to play - but it would be nice if there was a local non-government group who took it up themselves to lend a professional eye and maybe develop a rating scale for good and bad development - and then use that to put public pressure on developers and the city.

I thought the was the role the city's Planning Department was supposed to play - but it would be nice if there was a local non-government group who took it up themselves to lend a professional eye and maybe develop a rating scale for good and bad development - and then use that to put public pressure on developers and the city.

Well, I wasn't really thinking in that way. I was thinking that local architects/developers/engineers could use a good urban design planner/team to consult on interaction with the street, city streetscape projects, etc. Not to provide ratings, but actually get paid to help design. Your idea would be good too.

Yes - I was looking more at the community activist route - but those people get paid also. They would just need a corporate sponsor that was invested in good urban design.

Other firms do a lot of work outside OKC. Maybe it's a local-marketing issue by companies? None of them do much residential work outside OKC, I'll say that (unless you're talking dorms/barracks).

For instance, LWPB, FSB, Benham (now SAIC), GSB, and Guernsey all do a lot of work outside OKC, mainly for the Federal government. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that over 50% of their architecture revenues are outside OKC.
While I was at Benham I would say that while HTB and RGDC were married to the city government that 95% of revenue for the OKC office was outside of OKC. In the 34.5 years that my father worked at Benham he did one City of OKC road project, all of his other work in OKC was ODOT or OTA work. He was outright told by the city councilman from our area in the 70's (and was/is a county commissioner) that they didn't donate enough money (they didn't donate to any local candidate) to be under consideration for projects, that is why a few firms did all the city work under most of them were indicted. Until the Ford Center, Will Rogers, JDM Place and some Walgreen's stores Benham just didn't do local work, the majority of my 11 years there was work done for large corporate clients all over the world or governmental facilities. Since Benham was tied into military/gov't, industrial process/food & beverage markets that was their strength and they have maintained those relationships over a very long period of time. Also it is hard for a big firm to make the same kind of profit doing developer work since most developers are always trying to shave costs from every thing they can, unless you have a group dedicated to working with a building type (like the Walgreen's stores) you can lose money moving people on/off projects, you have to keep a core group cranking them out without wanting to redesign all the systems already in place. A large firm like Benham has a hard time with the scale of economy on lower value projects (think anything below 10 million) whereas a smaller firm can make a very good profit from that level of project. Benham did go after Deep Deuce with a local developer but it went to the out-of-state developer because some people think that means more than some locals doing something, to some people making decisions there is more "prestige" to an out of town developer or firm. Benham has planners, I worked with a couple of them extensively on many projects.

It is also hard to break into different markets unless you are already tied into that market and have the relationships and connections. Developer work was about 90% of what I did in Austin, the first firm had 8 employees and we did work for multiple developers in Austin, San Antonio and Houston but the principals had long time relationships which made that go. It was the same thing for my second firm (when I started in 2007 we had 22 in the Austin office, we got down to 8 in 2009), relationships developed over years and many projects. We tried to diversify into municipal and university projects but since we had no company track record (we had people with experience at other firms) it was hard to get a foot in the door of the selection committees. Most of the firms in OKC have experience in something other than urban development and planning because over the years that has been out of necessity. For the short time that I was at TAP there were only a few small local church additions that I worked on, everything else was out of state (medical buildings or church work). The firm in Denver that I work for (with two OU alums from MWC and Tulsa as principals, 1 architect/1 planner) is more gov't type of work and I am ready to get back into the developer side of things again.

I would love to do some development work in OKC, I really enjoyed working on the JDM Place project.

GTF Design is a one-trick pony… Multifamily is all they do; and because of that their fees can be a fraction of a multi-talent, full service architectural firm. Likewise with Pickard Chilton… they do glass high rises, and do them well. A client rightly seeks out the best resources for their project.


Most of the architects in OKC are multi-talented. And most projects are NOT multi-family. GTF and Pickard Chilton are not going to do a specialty hospital, or campus master plan, or a research lab. HSE and TAP are not going to do a 50-story glass high rise, and because of their diversity, just can’t do some things as well as the specialists. (I wonder if Orlando bloggers wring their hands when GSB gets all the Disney work.)


In addition to being an artistic profession, architecture is also a business. Each firm must consciously decide what kind of business they’re going to be, and do their best to succeed at it. Missing out on a few multi-family projects is not a catastrophe… and it’s not because Okie architects are inferior designers.

Multifamily is all they do; and because of that their fees can be a fraction of a multi-talent, full service architectural firm.
This is so true. Not long ago I considered a $30 Million plus, 300 unit multifamily project. The developer budged 0.3% for architectural fees. Specialists can do that by reusing plans and repeating footprints as often as possible.

I just happen to not like the end result.

This is so true. Not long ago I considered a $30 Million plus, 300 unit multifamily project. The developer budged 0.3% for architectural fees. Specialists can do that by reusing plans and repeating footprints as often as possible.

I just happen to not like the end result.
I wouldn't take a 0.3% fee working out of my house let alone an office with employees and expenses. I don't care how much stock building plans I had.

I wouldn't take a 0.3% fee working out of my house let alone an office with employees and expenses. I don't care how much stock building plans I had.Apparently we value design at something less than 1/3 the cost of granite countertops.