It seems like with 9 new hotels for Bricktown, not putting the CC in Bricktown is insane. Chamber needs to wake up and get an idea of where hospitality in OKC is headed.

Honestly Bricktown might even be too good IMO for this super block facility, but it would be much more of a win-win than the current proposed location.

I would even cast major dispersions on the need for a city subsidized CC hotel with NINE new hotels planned or u/c in Bricktown. Downtown's hotel demand is catching up, finally. It would be wrongheaded to funnel more resources toward that when we have other improvement areas needed.

Shhhhh!

It seems like with 9 new hotels for Bricktown, not putting the CC in Bricktown is insane. Chamber needs to wake up and get an idea of where hospitality in OKC is headed.

Honestly Bricktown might even be too good IMO for this super block facility, but it would be much more of a win-win than the current proposed location.

I would even cast major dispersions on the need for a city subsidized CC hotel with NINE new hotels planned or u/c in Bricktown. Downtown's hotel demand is catching up, finally. It would be wrongheaded to funnel more resources toward that when we have other improvement areas needed.

That is what I have been saying...but most people on here thought I was crazy when I mentioned this...

Spartan, you're one of the smartest people on this board, so I'm not casting aspersions, but I don't understand your logic. I've always been under the impression that the kind of rooms/services needed to attract the good-sized conventions and associated convention-goers are of the full-service variety. Are delegates to big industry conventions really going to be given choices like Candlewood Suites and Holiday Inn Express? I thought blocks of 300,400,500 full-service rooms were de rigeur. I have a friend who books rooms for association conventions and he always uses Hyatts, Marriotts, etc. Usually all rooms are supposed to be in a single hotel. What am I missing?

It seems like with 9 new hotels for Bricktown, not putting the CC in Bricktown is insane. Chamber needs to wake up and get an idea of where hospitality in OKC is headed.

Honestly Bricktown might even be too good IMO for this super block facility, but it would be much more of a win-win than the current proposed location.

I would even cast major dispersions on the need for a city subsidized CC hotel with NINE new hotels planned or u/c in Bricktown. Downtown's hotel demand is catching up, finally. It would be wrongheaded to funnel more resources toward that when we have other improvement areas needed.

You're right, that 6 block walk is going to be a killer.

Spartan, you're one of the smartest people on this board, so I'm not casting aspersions, but I don't understand your logic. I've always been under the impression that the kind of rooms/services needed to attract the good-sized conventions and associated convention-goers are of the full-service variety. Are delegates to big industry conventions really going to be given choices like Candlewood Suites and Holiday Inn Express? I thought blocks of 300,400,500 full-service rooms were de rigeur. I have a friend who books rooms for association conventions and he always uses Hyatts, Marriotts, etc. Usually all rooms are supposed to be in a single hotel. What am I missing?

You're absolutely correct. While the kind of multiple hotels being built in Bricktown can offer backup support for larger conventions they are not what is required for a convention hotel and many convention planners wouldn't even consider a setup like that.

Spartan, you're one of the smartest people on this board, so I'm not casting aspersions, but I don't understand your logic. I've always been under the impression that the kind of rooms/services needed to attract the good-sized conventions and associated convention-goers are of the full-service variety. Are delegates to big industry conventions really going to be given choices like Candlewood Suites and Holiday Inn Express? I thought blocks of 300,400,500 full-service rooms were de rigeur. I have a friend who books rooms for association conventions and he always uses Hyatts, Marriotts, etc. Usually all rooms are supposed to be in a single hotel. What am I missing?

Yep. Definitely agree.

It seems like with 9 new hotels for Bricktown, not putting the CC in Bricktown is insane. Chamber needs to wake up and get an idea of where hospitality in OKC is headed.

Honestly Bricktown might even be too good IMO for this super block facility, but it would be much more of a win-win than the current proposed location.

I would even cast major dispersions on the need for a city subsidized CC hotel with NINE new hotels planned or u/c in Bricktown. Downtown's hotel demand is catching up, finally. It would be wrongheaded to funnel more resources toward that when we have other improvement areas needed.

short answer no

While I definitely disagree that we don't need a CC hotel with nine new hotels planned for Bricktown, I do agree that the hotel cluster in Bricktown would be advantageous for a Bricktown-located convention center. While people whose housing is being paid for by their company usually stay in the convention center hotel, sometimes there are people paying their own way, and close, less expensive hotels are not a bad thing. However, a CC hotel could be built in Bricktown as well (if there's still enough space available).

Even with all these recent announcements, as long as the Convention Hotel is built, there will still be more rooms in the Central Business District:





Hotel
Location
Status
Rooms
Total Rooms


Skirvin
CBD
complete
225



Sheraton
CBD
complete
395



Courtyard
CBD
complete
225



Renaissance
CBD
complete
311



Colcord
CBD
complete
108



Convention Hotel
CBD
proposed
500














1,764









Hampton Inn
Bricktown
complete
200



Residence Inn
Bricktown
complete
151



Aloft
Deep Deuce
under const.
130



Hilton Garden Inn
Bricktown
under const.
255



Holiday Inn Express
Bricktown
under const.
124



Staybridge Suites
Bricktown
proposed
131



East Bricktown
Bricktown
proposed
150



Patel 1
Deep Deuce
proposed
125



Patel 2
Bricktown
proposed
125



Patel 3
Bricktown
proposed
125







1,516



















Grand Total:
3,280*




* For comparison, there are approximately 5,000 hotel rooms in the I-40 & Meridian corridor and about 15,000 in the OKC area.

Plus one of the reasons for all the hotels in the Bricktown area is the rising demand overall. The Thunder and the playoffs are a huge part of this demand.

And don't forget that the streetcar will tie together the convention center with all these hotels, regardless of location.

Bricktown has also become a visitor destination. People are actually planning stops and stays there on trips. OKC used to be a pass through city. That is not really the case any longer.

Even with all these recent announcements, as long as the Convention Hotel is built, there will still be more rooms in the Central Business District:


Move the convention hotel to Bricktown instead of downtown and see what it does to your numbers. That will be a 1000 room swing.

Downtown: 1,264
Bricktown: 2,016

Move the convention hotel to Bricktown instead of downtown and see what it does to your numbers. That will be a 1000 room swing.

If you compare the existing and under construction hotels, the CBD still has 1,264 compared to 860 in Bricktown/DD.

Once you move into the proposed category, anything can happen.

And don't forget that the streetcar will tie together the convention center with all these hotels, regardless of location.

Streetcar is being run out to Lincoln?

If you compare the existing and under construction hotels, the CBD still has 1,264 compared to 860 in Bricktown/DD.

Once you move into the proposed category, anything can happen.

As long as it is proposed...

Oh dear. My first post casts aspersions on iPad autocorrect -_-

Convention Center will not be in Bricktown as long as mighty Mick is mayor. He has a narrow minded vision of Core to Shore and anything else he will not allow.

Convention Center will not be in Bricktown as long as mighty Mick is mayor. He has a narrow minded vision of Core to Shore and anything else he will not allow.

He didnt pick the current spot

The spot the Mayor wanted was ruled out by the Sub-Committee, as Boulder said.

Its still in his Core to Shore area. Just like his "boulevard".

The spot the Mayor wanted was ruled out by the Sub-Committee, as Boulder said.

And IMHO his location was 10x better

It would have been if we could build it taller, with a smaller footprint. That would have given the CC a great spot but also allowed the park to be surrounded by a neighborhood. Both goals accommodated.

Distance from Bricktown is irrelevant, we're talking what, 2 blocks? In San Diego, Gaslamp District is quite a trek from the Convention Center, and the CC area is pretty dead other than the faux disney mini-district Seaport Village. Vegas Convention Center is a mile or so drive from the strip. I can think of plenty of cities where the CC is a distance from the entertainment districts, and some don't have the best of public transit right by the convention center.

I wonder if city leaders get worried when so many suburban homes are built all at once, because my memory recalls that those are always welcome with open arms as a sign of growth. I guess everyone has to be afraid of something.

Anyhow...

I found this combination of wording interesting.


Likewise, I'm beginning to hear some worrying about the pace of new housing.

...

But when a broker comes along with a suggestion a developer might want to build 1,000 units at once, that's when the remainder of the downtown real estate community gets worried.

Let me say this about that. The end of suburbia is upon us. The public, especially the younger generation, has discovered that it isn't sustainable and that the entire expirement has created places that aren't worth caring about and they want no part of it. Add in $30,000 cars (usually 2 per house), hours of commuting time a week, and $4 gasoline and there is little wonder people are choosing a different option. If 1,000 units hit the market today they would be gone in a few weeks. Supply is so far behind demand it isn't funny, and this isn't a demand of stye or preference, it is a demand born out of necessitiy and isn't going away. A recent national study said that 50% of Americans wished they lived within walking distance of a grocery store while only 5% actually do. That is some serious potential. This demand is also not limitied to just downtown housing, but any place with a walkable commercial district (i.e Plaza District, Paseo, Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Brittany, etc...).

the end of suburbia is far from "upon us"

Feel free to skip forward to the 30:45 mark. The numbers don't lie BoulderSooner.

26xOvGADc4c

The world really is flat. The end of suburbia is here. The check is in the mail. Trust me.

If there are stronger quality standards implemented then the supply will be slowed and we will have buildings that truly will be long term sustainable. Large quantities of cheaply built apartments, whether in the downtown area or the hated suburbs is not in this city's long term interest. Nor is a bubble and burst pattern. No one suggests we stop good downtown housing options from being developed.

Rover - you might be interested in the section from 1:00 to 2:50 - or not.

I'm curious why the shift and resulting loss of business from the outlying hotels to those in the downtown area is such a great concern? Are people really upset about Meridian Ave?

That was kinda the point I linked that video earlier in this particular thread. Things get off topic pretty easily.

I'm curious why the shift and resulting loss of business from the outlying hotels to those in the downtown area is such a great concern? Are people really upset about Meridian Ave?


That was kinda the point I linked that video earlier in this particular thread. Things get off topic pretty easily.

I know, and things are going to get off topic once again.

To answer OnlyOne's question - here is the problem some have with the growth of hotels downtown

1) The locations of these new hotels show that growth is occuring away from the existing hotel cluster that was used to 'validate' the convention center location.
2) A private sector willing to build hotels as fast as the ink can dry undermines the Chamber's push for a publicly financed convention hotel.
3) The Chamber's own study said the convention center upgrade would be a failure without the publicly financed convention hotel.

So there you have it.

One, it isn't about taking hotel business from outlying areas. It is about developing at an appropriate rate to not destroy the business downtown.

Secondly, it may be about destroying the opportunity to have a needed first class full service hotel downtown. As Pete has repeatedly said here, developers are notoriously behind the curve and consequently create huge bubbles and bursts. Managing appropriate growth in needed market segments benefits the whole downtown growth, as it does the health of the city as a whole.

Third, I know that some abhor the thought of publicly helping a quality hotel development but have no second thoughts about the 100s of millions of dollars benefiting private developers of cheap apartments and hotels in the area through the stimulus created by MAPS. The paranoia about an appropriate CC and requisite facilities is unwarranted in my opinion.

Let me say this about that. The end of suburbia is upon us. The public, especially the younger generation, has discovered that it isn't sustainable and that the entire expirement has created places that aren't worth caring about and they want no part of it. Add in $30,000 cars (usually 2 per house), hours of commuting time a week, and $4 gasoline and there is little wonder people are choosing a different option. If 1,000 units hit the market today they would be gone in a few weeks. Supply is so far behind demand it isn't funny, and this isn't a demand of stye or preference, it is a demand born out of necessitiy and isn't going away. A recent national study said that 50% of Americans wished they lived within walking distance of a grocery store while only 5% actually do. That is some serious potential. This demand is also not limitied to just downtown housing, but any place with a walkable commercial district (i.e Plaza District, Paseo, Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Brittany, etc...).

Kerry, if true, that makes most of your concerns about what the city does invalid. The market will dictate.

I'm curious why the shift and resulting loss of business from the outlying hotels to those in the downtown area is such a great concern? Are people really upset about Meridian Ave?

Do you have evidence that Meridian is suffering?

Kerry, if true, that makes most of your concerns about what the city does invalid. The market will dictate.

I don't follow what you are saying. OKC can either plan for what is happening or it can not plan for what is happening. You might want to watch the video in this posting. The first 3 minutes should suffice.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/33058-new-urbanism-library.html#post613253

I know, and things are going to get off topic once again.

To answer OnlyOne's question - here is the problem some have with the growth of hotels downtown

1) The locations of these new hotels show that growth is occuring away from the existing hotel cluster that was used to 'validate' the convention center location.
2) A private sector willing to build hotels as fast as the ink can dry undermines the Chamber's push for a publicly financed convention hotel.
3) The Chamber's own study said the convention center upgrade would be a failure without the publicly financed convention hotel.

So there you have it.

#1 and #2 simply are not true

They simply are. See, two can play that game.

1) The current site was selected because of it proximity to the existing hotels. It got a 5 out 5 on the score card. By the time the CC is done the center of hotel gravity will have moved east of EKG.
2) In the public's eye it is going to be a tough sell to publicly finance something the private sector is buidling so fast that some city leaders are concerned we might have too much of.

They simply are. See, two can play that game.

1) The current site was selected because of it proximity to the existing hotels. It got a 5 out 5 on the score card. By the time the CC is done the center of hotel gravity will have moved east of EKG.
2) In the public's eye it is going to be a tough sell to publicly finance something the private sector is buidling so fast that some city leaders are concerned we might have too much of.

as to #2 where are these new full service 300 room block hotels you are speaking of

as to #3 where is this private 600 room full service hotel you are speaking of??

Admins, can this discussion get moved to Spatan's thread about this subject?

If they are going to build a full service hotel shouldn't they do it where all of the other hotel levels will exist at the time the CC opens? Of course, that will then dictate that the CC itself gets moved. This is just a bunch of dominos and they aren't falling the way the CC wanted them to fall, which is exposing the flawed location choice. Instead of correcting THEIR bad choice, they are privately wondering if the rearrangement of dominos should be stopped - at least until the CC is built. After all, if a bunch of mid-priced hotels are built in Bricktown there would be any left to build near the CC.

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to understand that the CC developers would like adjacent hotels in all price ranges and that a bourgeoning hotel district 6 blocks away could hinder that.

No kidding, the hotel diatribe is getting old, let alone clogging up threads on exciting projects underway.

Moved a bunch of posts from the Mercantile Building thread to here.

This is an interesting discussion. But it's skipping over a pretty serious factor that comes into play far more than is acknowledged in this thread so far: the difference between full service, limited service and extended stay hotels. Bricktown has NO full service hotels, only limited service and extended stays between what's built and what's set to be built. The CBD has nothing but full service hotels. I witnessed former City Manager Glenn Deck and then Urban Renewal director Tianna Douglas battle with developer John Q. Hammons to ensure that the Courtyard was built as a full service hotel. why did they fight for that? It was critical then, and critical now, to building our convention business.

Steve's point raises serious questions about how appropriate the current hotel boom is. Just because these buildings are designed to have brick facades does not make them worthy of being built in Bricktown, meaning worthy of a public subsidy. The Bricktown committee needs to be declining these apps and funneling them to the Core to Shore area. Its not fair to the tax payers to allow these developers to build essentially a bunch of Motel 6s in a publicly financed district. These low rent hotels combined with the Bass Pro are already starting to make Bricktown into this weird mix of rednecks and thugs that nobody wanted to see happen.

Steve's point raises serious questions about how appropriate the current hotel boom is. Just because these buildings are designed to have brick facades does not make them worthy of being built in Bricktown, meaning worthy of a public subsidy. The Bricktown committee needs to be declining these apps and funneling them to the Core to Shore area. Its not fair to the tax payers to allow these developers to build essentially a bunch of Motel 6s in a publicly financed district. These low rent hotels combined with the Bass Pro are already starting to make Bricktown into this weird mix of rednecks and thugs that nobody wanted to see happen.

they can't "decline" these because they are not full service hotels they are a building design committee .. not a use committee ..

The Bricktown committee needs to be declining these apps and funneling them to the Core to Shore area. Its not fair to the tax payers to allow these developers to build essentially a bunch of Motel 6s in a publicly financed district. These low rent hotels combined with the Bass Pro are already starting to make Bricktown into this weird mix of rednecks and thugs that nobody wanted to see happen.

Core to Shore is a publicly financed district and has way way way way more public dollars spent on it than Bricktown does.

My point is the gatekeepers now have leverage in what gets built downtown. They need to start using it. If you have been to Core to Shore, you probably agree with me that it is one of the only parts of the city where growth is inherently good. Growth is not necessarily good in Bricktown now. Once all the empty lots are built out, it will be too late to worry about the vibe.

What kind of vibe are you trying to preserve in Bricktown?

My point is the gatekeepers now have leverage in what gets built downtown. They need to start using it. If you have been to Core to Shore, you probably agree with me that it is one of the only parts of the city where growth is inherently good. Growth is not necessarily good in Bricktown now. Once all the empty lots are built out, it will be too late to worry about the vibe.

they don't have leverage over what is built ... they have leverage over what the look is of what gets built ... if a project follows the design ordinances they can't really stop a project

What kind of vibe are you trying to preserve in Bricktown?

Not trying to preserve anything. Cities are always changing. But a comfortable vibe should a goal, preferably comfortable for the people who paid for the improvements, locals. When you have a firearms dealer (Bass Pro) on the edge of a district, that creates tension. When you create an entertainment district surrounded to the south and east by the homicide capitols of the city, you create tension. When you have too many hotels, you have a tension between the locals and visitors. Its just not comfortable for locals and that's kind of disappointing.

Not trying to preserve anything. Cities are always changing. But a comfortable vibe should a goal, preferably comfortable for the people who paid for the improvements, locals. When you have a firearms dealer (Bass Pro) on the edge of a district, that creates tension. When you create an entertainment district surrounded to the south and east by the homicide capitols of the city, you create tension. When you have too many hotels, you have a tension between the locals and visitors. Its just not comfortable for locals and that's kind of disappointing.

a bass pro creates "tension" really? lol

a bass pro creates "tension" really? lol

Well, that would be about the only thing it created. It sure wasn't the retail catalyst it was sold to us as.

So anyhow, back to hotels in Bricktown. For the first time in Bricktown's 25 year history it finally is becoming a true urban neighborhood instead of a 1 trick pony. The hotels function very similar to residential units but in some cases even better because the guests have to eat out for every meal. Hotel guests will provide the much needed people on the sidewalk that helps create a safe environment. Despite the reference to Motel 6, these hotels are not seedy nor are they in a seedy part of town. Things can be nice AND affordable.

Maybe it isn't the hotels that bother me so much as the lack of residential. I wouldn't live in Bricktown as it currently exists, but new residential there would help strike a better balance between locals and visitors.

Maybe it isn't the hotels that bother me so much as the lack of residential. I wouldn't live in Bricktown as it currently exists, but new residential there would help strike a better balance between locals and visitors.

the east bricktown apts will go a long way in helping bricktown

Maybe it isn't the hotels that bother me so much as the lack of residential. I wouldn't live in Bricktown as it currently exists, but new residential there would help strike a better balance between locals and visitors.

One thing that holds back businesses of all types is time-diversity. If a business doesn't have a customer base during a large portion of what would be considered normal operating hours then it will only be open a limited number of hours per day (see most downtown restaurants closing at 2PM) and if they can't generate enough revenue in 6 hours they might not open at all (see OKCs lack of significant downtown retail). Hotels will help provide people to meet that time-diversity requirement because it will keep a thousand people in the district after 6PM during the week. That in turn well ensure that there are places open for you when you move down there.

I love Bass Pro. I shop there all the time and the place is normally packed. i have talked to people from all over the country there. Great clothing for men and Women. I also buy my firearms and ammo there. The hotels will be a good fit with Bass Pro.

Well, that would be about the only thing it created. It sure wasn't the retail catalyst it was sold to us as.

So anyhow, back to hotels in Bricktown. For the first time in Bricktown's 25 year history it finally is becoming a true urban neighborhood instead of a 1 trick pony. The hotels function very similar to residential units but in some cases even better because the guests have to eat out for every meal. Hotel guests will provide the much needed people on the sidewalk that helps create a safe environment. Despite the reference to Motel 6, these hotels are not seedy nor are they in a seedy part of town. Things can be nice AND affordable.

I know you are a anti Bass Pro snob, but apparantly you can't see the hundreds of cars in its parking lot at any time (but then again, I don't believe you are in OKC much at all to see firsthand). The biggest problem though is that it is away from the rest of the area and doesn't really feel a part of BT. The real connectivity problem is that the canal is the main connector and there is such a lifeless segment through lower BTown. Bass Pro could never by itself save BT or make it a shopping hub. Probably the biggest thing that killed that was the denial of development proposed by Bob Funk east of the ballpark. Too big of a chasm. Hopefully with the new projects in east BT the dynamics will change a little.

So you agree - Bass Pro wasn't the retail catalyst it sold to us as (it was supposed to lure adjacent development to fill in the chasm). Does that make you an anti-Bass Pro snob, or is that still just me. I can't imagine the City built a $20 million building just to break even, but who knows, maybe they did.

You might want to give this a read when you get a moment.

http://blogs.artvoice.com/avdaily/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/fishing_tax_cash.pdf