I've been in Norman/OKC for 3 days now and here are some general observations.

1. Norman should not build one more street until they redo do every existing one in town. They are the worst streets I can ever remember driving on.

2. Main St in Norman is very well developed but they should return it to two-way traffic.

3. Downtown OKC is cool beyond my wildest dreams, except for Devon and Sandridge; they are even worse than I feared. Quote from son - why does downtown only have 1 tall building. I won't talk about sidewalk appeal.

4. Hideaway Pizza is a quality establishment. Note to self, tell them to go light on the sauce next time.

5. Best intersection in the State is Harvey and NW 3rd.

6. Second best is NE 2nd and Walnut.

7. Automobile Alley needs some HAWK systems at the corners where traffic lights don't exist. With only 2 traffic lights the cars are flying through there and there is no median to wait on.

8. Chesapeake has some serious construction going on, too bad they decided to spread it all over the southern plains.

9. The downtown grid is so nice where the old I-40 used to be I have a hard time believing OKC Boulevard is a serious consideration. I simply can't imagine how that area will ever develop if they closed all those intersections.

10. The Farmers Market building is my wife's favorite. Because of the old elevated freeway she said she never even knew it was there and she worked downtown for several years.

11. Midtown coming along nicely but could use some in-fill (but we all know that is coming)

12. Project 180 is a game changer. The two-way streets are great.

I'll follow up with some more later.

Just curious, but what exactly did Devon do wrong with their development? How was it worse than you feared?

Glad to hear you are enjoying your stay so far.

(I'm being genuine not sarcastic)

welcome back to the state JTF. Enjoy your stay, and stick around if you can convince the missus.

Just curious, but what exactly did Devon do wrong with their development? How was it worse than you feared?

Glad to hear you are enjoying your stay so far.

(I'm being genuine not sarcastic)

I don't want to put words in Kerry's mouth but I suspect he's unhappy because the buildings don't create enough of a street wall for him and he want's more interaction with pedestrians.

I don't want to put words in Kerry's mouth but I suspect he's unhappy because the buildings don't create enough of a street wall for him and want's more interaction with pedestrians.

That's it. Wish I had more time but there is just too much family to visit and heaven forbid I don't get to all of them. I might have to make a stealth visit :)

I hope your time back in OK is enjoyable JTF.

That's it. Wish I had more time but there is just too much family to visit and heaven forbid I don't get to all of them. I might have to make a stealth visit :)

That's getting really scary for me when I understand what you're thinking. LOL

I don't want to put words in Kerry's mouth but I suspect he's unhappy because the buildings don't create enough of a street wall for him and he want's more interaction with pedestrians.

which is funny .. because the entire devon complex has more interaction with pedestrians than about any other building downtown ..

which is funny .. because the entire devon complex has more interaction with pedestrians than about any other building downtown ..

While I love the complex, I don't agree with your statement.

While I love the complex, I don't agree with your statement.

I was down there last Saturday night and the Devon complex was full of folks, inside and out. Amazing how many people were all over the ornaments getting their pictures taken. The place was crowded, couldn't have been more inviting.

Really glad to finally meet you in person tonight Kerry. You have a really nice family. And of course, my kids want to know when they will see your kids again. :)

Take care and soak up all this OKC awesomeness while you are here! ;)

Thanks Sid. You have a beautiful family and we were very happy to meet all of you. Next on the agenda is snow tubing this afternoon.

I was down there last Saturday night and the Devon complex was full of folks, inside and out. Amazing how many people were all over the ornaments getting their pictures taken. The place was crowded, couldn't have been more inviting.

this has been my observation as well almost every day of the week

I completely disagree with the criticism of the Devon Complex.

I think it's absolutely fantastic on all levels and they have gone way, way out of their way to include elements that are open, unique and appealing to the general public.

I'm glad it's not built right on the sidewalk along Sheridan (although some of it is). That part borders the wide-open Myriad Gardens and compliments it in many ways. The park and various patios and open spaces serve their own purposes and are also distinctly public places.

I have not criticized the Devon complex in the least. I love it and the way it interacts with the area it is in. I just commented that I disagreed that it has more interaction with pedestrian traffic than any area downtown and I still believe that.

I have not criticized the Devon complex in the least. I love it and the way it interacts with the area it is in. I just commented that I disagreed that it has more interaction with pedestrian traffic than any area downtown and I still believe that.

If I had to take a guess, I would say that Pete is talking more about Kerry's comments than he is yours. Just a guess though, I may be wrong.

I have not criticized the Devon complex in the least. I love it and the way it interacts with the area it is in. I just commented that I disagreed that it has more interaction with pedestrian traffic than any area downtown and I still believe that.

If you'd look at the 'Devon Complex' for what it is, you'd have to include the connection with the Colcord and their out door patio bar. The food court in the Garden wing is also open to the public. The ability to cut through the rotunda during normal hours makes it highly interactive. This place is as inviting and people friendly as it gets. jmo

Again, I love the Devon complex. I'm not sure that being able to cut through the rotunda counts as being interactive though unless there is something in the rotunda to interact with. Do you consider the underground concourse downtown to be interactive because you can use it to walk from one place to another?

Do you consider a sidewalk to be interactive just because you can use it to get to another place? Downtown has more sidewalks than any part of the metro that has everything and nothing in between. All downtown needs is residency.

The Devon building is an architectural marvel. It is absolutely fabulous. Agree with just about everything else Kerry said.

General Travel Observations:

The status of our interstate highway system is deplorable. We better start planning for life after interstates.

Every metro area with more than 250,000 people should be required to have at least one regional rail line operating by 2020. The vast sums of money spent on urban interstates that are only used 2 times a day is saddening (and maddening).

Metro Dallas is the culmination of every bad decision in highway planning ever made. Even on a Sunday morning we spent over an hour waiting in traffic. I can't imagine what the morning and evening commute is like.

I know every state thinks they have the worst drivers, but they all seem to come to Florida. I don't know if it is because many of them think they are nearing their destination or what but they turn their internal switch to stupid/rude the second they cross the state border

Oklahoma:
If you haven't done so, take the tour of the Weather Center on the OU south campus. Very cool and it is free. The whole family loved it.

University North Park is a bust, and I don't mean store-wise. We stayed at the Embassy Suites and on Friday the wife and kids stayed behind while I did a walking tour of downtown OKC. Without a car all they could do is sit in the hotel room even though they were in the middle of a massive shopping center. Everything is too far to walk to. Our Norman friends say they avoid UNP like the plague because traffic is so bad. I told them that is what happens when you build in a way that requires everyone to drive everywhere for everything.

Campus Corner needs a private parking garage.

Warren Theater is off the chain. We went to see The Hobbit twice (once in 2D and once in 3D). If you go, save your money and skip the 3D. It adds nothing to the movie.

The downtown way-finding system needs to be expanded. People driving around in Deep Deuce asked me how to get to the National Memorial. As the footprint of downtown expands things are getting harder to find. Oddly enough, even though they were driving and I was walking I got to the Memorial before they did. I guess they had to drive around looking for a parking space.

The Deep Deuce trestle is very very cool. Whatever happens to that rail line, that trestle needs to stay. If nothing else the area under it can be turned into a fenced dog park.

I'll say it again. The Project 180 streets look great and they should be a model for future street renovation in the entire urban core. For example, Perry/Carter (can we pick one name or the other please - the road is 6 blocks long and has 2 different names) has 3 hotels and 2 major residential developments taking place along it. It doesn't even have sidewalks on either side of the street between Deep Deuce and Bricktown.

Downtown OKC has a lot more cool old buildings than I remember. I guess this is because it is now possible to get out of a car and start walking. Things that are invisible from the car are up-close and personal from the sidewalk. Even the telephone building looks pretty neat when you are standing right next to the door vs. seeing it from the highway. I love the two built-in (but abandoned) telephone booths.

They need a downtown Urban City Pass for the downtown attractions. Buy one pass (at a reduced rate) and get into all the downtown attractions. It could include admission to the Banjo Museum, Oklahoma Heritage Center, OKCMoA, Oklahoma City National Memorial, Bricktown Rocks, Overholser Mansion, Water Taxi, and MBG. Add places that are free but no one knows about (like the Oklahoma Museum of Telephone History) and it will pull in visitors and entice other attractions downtown (like the National Photography Hall of Fame and the Toy and Action Figure Museum). If the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum is ever done it could be connected to downtown via a water taxi and added to the list. And why the hell is the Museum of Osteology located out in boondocks. It should be downtown where people might actually see it.

The next time I come to OKC we are staying downtown. There are so many neat places to eat it is far better than staying Norman (UNP) where everything is a chain that we can eat at here in Jax.

Downtown OKC has a surprising amount of retail, it is just far too spread out. I don't mind walking but the wife hates it and she knows how to use the debt card like a professional. Get the existing retail clustered in one area and you could have something. BTW - Pinkitzel in the loading docks at Santa Fe Station is great. Wife says they are the best cupcakes she has ever had and the taffy would have made a nice traveling snack if they had lasted that long (you eat one and you can't stop).

I was disappointed in the Skydance Bridge. If is out of scale for the width of the freeway it is trying to span. It needed to be at least 2X as tall as it is. From the car on I-40 it impossible to see the whole thing at once anyhow so maybe it doesn't even matter.

We took a quick walk through Bricktown Rocks. WOW!!!! Even if you don't do rock climbing you should go check it out. That place is really neat. If it wasn't cold while we were there it would have been fun to try.

I have a few other comments with pictures so as I get them uploaded I will post them with comments.

Hey, I would say every city with a metro city of 150,000 should required to have a light rail, but that is me.

I would say it is good that this person does not live in OKC/Norman, because apparently this place is a dump/disaster. I don't know how people can stand to live here.

I would say it is good that this person does not live in OKC/Norman, because apparently this place is a dump/disaster. I don't know how people can stand to live here.

If you like Norman, great. I used to live in Norman, now I don't. We're both happy. I would move to downtown OKC tonight if the wife gave the green light. Maybe she needs to spend more time with Sid's family. :)

i have been looking at making the move from Norman to Downtown OKC... up until a few months ago i was looking for a house in norman to buy. but after spending a few weeks in San Fran and actually living there as opposed to a short visit, made me realize how much i could love urban living. Now it's just a matter of finding the space i want for the price i want

i have been looking at making the move from Norman to Downtown OKC... up until a few months ago i was looking for a house in norman to buy. but after spending a few weeks in San Fran and actually living there as opposed to a short visit, made me realize how much i could love urban living. Now it's just a matter of finding the space i want for the price i want

We had a friend over on Thursday night for a few drinks at the hotel in Norman. During our conversation she said she wanted to move from Norman to downtown as well. Her daughter moved to Washington DC several years ago and after a few visits to DC she realized the enormous benefits of living in an urban environment. She has lived in Norman her whole life and wants to find a job downtown before making the move though. I think she should move now and worry about the job later. The reverse commute isn't bad and she works on Robinson near 36th. Heck, at 5PM she can probably drive from there to downtown OKC faster than she can drive to her house near campus.

They need a downtown Urban City Pass for the downtown attractions. Buy one pass (at a reduced rate) and get into all the downtown attractions. It could include admission to the Banjo Museum, Oklahoma Heritage Center, OKCMoA, Oklahoma City National Memorial, Bricktown Rocks, Overholser Mansion, Water Taxi, and MBG. Add places that are free but no one knows about (like the Oklahoma Museum of Telephone History) and it will pull in visitors and entice other attractions downtown (like the National Photography Hall of Fame and the Toy and Action Figure Museum). If the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum is ever done it could be connected to downtown via a water taxi and added to the list. And why the hell is the Museum of Osteology located out in boondocks. It should be downtown where people might actually see it.

That is an awesome idea. I don't even know wtf osteology is though.

JTF, while all food options in the UNP area are chains, there isn't a shortage of other dining opportunities in Norman. Perhaps you've been away so long you've forgotten. Take a look at Norman Restaurants | Urbanspoon (http://www.urbanspoon.com/n/46/46354/Oklahoma-City/Norman-restaurants) and you'll see that while a couple of chains are listed, most are local establishments.

There are many, many additional opportunities for dining in Norman not listed there to permit one to explore and enjoy without stepping foot into a national chain venue. So yes, chains are present in (over)abundance for the folks who prefer that sense of familiar comfort, but they are also easily avoided.

Merry Christmas, and I hope you convince your spouse Oklahoma is worth the move.

That is an awesome idea. I don't even know wtf osteology is though.

Bones, I think.

That is an awesome idea. I don't even know wtf osteology is though.

Bones - the study of. OKC actually has a skeleton museum.....

That is an awesome idea. I don't even know wtf osteology is though.

The study of the structure and function of the skeleton and bony structures. The museum mentioned has a website at
Museum of Osteology (Oklahoma City, OK) - America's Only Skeleton Museum! (http://www.museumofosteology.org/)

Well I meant that a downtown museum ticket would be awesome. DOKC needs to get on this. Too many museums downtown are struggling.

In the near future the ticket could be bundled with streetcar passes. Most all European cities do this for tourists.

There is a lot more critical mass of museums downtown than we realize.

The Osteology Museum is constantly packed with school kids from primary grades through high school. It's really an amazing visit.

One city I visited and I can't remember where it was had a program for downtown attractions with a pass that was good for certain hours or certain days. Like every Tuesday & Thursday could get you in with the pass. I wish I could remember the details, I'll think about it.

In most major cities interstates are busy more than just during rush hour, areas like DFW or Houston any of them near the city center are packed for 16 or so hours a day. Mid-sized cities with poor highway infrastructure like Austin are parking lots during rush hour but are still very busy during the rest of the day. On weekends I-25, I-70, I-225, C470 are still pretty busy on weekends. I know that highways are the bane of the urbanist but they are a fact of life and need to be maintained just as other transportation systems need to be expanded and maintained. Just like everything, a balanced approach needs to be the norm rather than the exception because the burbs are not going away in most parts of the country.

I have too many hobbies that require space and create noise (wood/metal working, cars, motorcycles) to live in an urban environment where space is at a premium. The only way that I could is is I had an old warehouse or something. Most of the urban living type of folks that I know here or in Austin their only hobby tends to be drinking, but then most are in the mid-to-late 20's so I can understand that.

There is a lot more critical mass of museums downtown than we realize.

I just hope if it ever happens they don't water it down with attractions outside the urban core. While downtown and the adventure district can work together to lure visitors to the city, downtown needs to start getting a little greedy with the tourism dollars. Disney loves being in Orlando, but they do everything in their power to keep tourist from leaving their property.

I realize that this board tends to collect urbanists, but reading through this thread made me think of the "Is Norman Going Downhill" thread. DOKC could well siphon off all of the stuff that once made Norman unique and cool. Norman should get off the fence and allow some urbanism to take hold in at least a small section of Norman.

I'm not sure if Norman is going downhill at all, and I'm not sure how big a hill Norman was even on to begin with. For years Campus Corner was the only pedestrian oriented district in the Metro. Downtown Norman has developed nicely but they could use 4 things: 1) convert the streets to 2-way, 2) multi-story residential, 3) a hotel, 4) regional rail station. 2, 3, and 4 could all be combined into one.

Urban Norman isn't going downhill so much as it isn't keeping up with other parts of the metro, specifically the urban core of OKC. Suburban Norman is only getting worse.

I agree with everything in the OP except for the Devon comments. I really like the Devon tower. It does make the skyline look a little off balance but there will likely be another tower or two constructed before its all said and done and once that is complete it will look fine. It doesn't look bad even now. Another good thing is it upped the standard for future downtown construction.

3. Downtown OKC is cool beyond my wildest dreams, except for Devon and Sandridge; they are even worse than I feared. Quote from son - why does downtown only have 1 tall building. I won't talk about sidewalk appeal.

This is just REEKING of a personal vendetta you have... at least that would explain some of it. My family and I drove by Devon on our "Christmas Lights" tour (Devon, Automobile Alley, Chesapeake, Nichol's Hills, Down's Family Farm). My folks are old and really can't get around as well anymore so it's just a driving tour. But, of all the places we went Devon was the ONE place that almost made my elderly folks want to get out of the car and walk. It is a corporate tower, yet it was incredibly vibrant and bustling on a cold December night. To indicate that Devon is in any way not pedestrain friendly or interaction friendly, is just absolute lunacy.


If you like Norman, great. I used to live in Norman, now I don't. We're both happy. I would move to downtown OKC tonight if the wife gave the green light. Maybe she needs to spend more time with Sid's family. :)

Why do you want Norman to be like Downtown OKC so badly??? People that live in Norman, prefer that it isn't like downtown OKC. I find it ironic that the "urbanists" say they seek diversity, yet hypocritically they want everyplace to be urban and exactly the same.

Yes, Norman and Downtown OKC are different... Get over it... Can the Norman leaders do better? Sure. But, to compare it to downtown OKC is again, a stroke of lunacy.

I saw this sign at Harney and 7th. I love the pedestrian walking times and wish there were more sign like this all around downtown.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/sign1_zps68530ade.jpg

However, putting them 15 feet off the ground doesn't work well. I asked this nice lady if she could stand next to the sign to give it some scale. She said she has walked the sidewalk for years and this was the first time she has ever seen that sign.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/sign2_zpsdaf817c9.jpg

Why is there a sign for the Pride festival which only happens once per year?

No offense meant by that at all.

Those signs were put up during a Better Block project. I'm not sure why that one wasn't removed but if I had to guess it is because those signs are really there to act as an illustration of what we could do. BetterBlock projects typically just take existing spaces and try to show how they can be modified. The goal is to create momentum around good ideas that can be used elsewhere and to show how valuable public space can be - right under our nose.

I also think that it helps to have signs to temporary-but-recurring events to remind people just how much stuff goes on downtown.

Those signs were put up during a Better Block project. I'm not sure why that one wasn't removed but if I had to guess it is because those signs are really there to act as an illustration of what we could do. BetterBlock projects typically just take existing spaces and try to show how they can be modified. The goal is to create momentum around good ideas that can be used elsewhere and to show how valuable public space can be - right under our nose.

I see. I guess leaving that sign up is a nice show of social progressivism in a region of the country known for being the opposite.

Those signs were put up during a Better Block project. I'm not sure why that one wasn't removed but if I had to guess it is because those signs are really there to act as an illustration of what we could do. BetterBlock projects typically just take existing spaces and try to show how they can be modified. The goal is to create momentum around good ideas that can be used elsewhere and to show how valuable public space can be - right under our nose.

Well then what do we need to do to get more of them? If they were bought with private funds would the City let them be put on existing poles?

Owe are some really inflated walk times. There's no way it could take 5 minutes to walk two blocks to the Memorial.

http://i.imgur.com/SagCR.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/SagCR)

That depends on what route you take.

I'm not sure if Norman is going downhill at all, and I'm not sure how big a hill Norman was even on to begin with. For years Campus Corner was the only pedestrian oriented district in the Metro. Downtown Norman has developed nicely but they could use 4 things: 1) convert the streets to 2-way, 2) multi-story residential, 3) a hotel, 4) regional rail station. 2, 3, and 4 could all be combined into one.

Urban Norman isn't going downhill so much as it isn't keeping up with other parts of the metro, specifically the urban core of OKC. Suburban Norman is only getting worse.
They flattened "the hill" down in Norman when they started UNP.....:Smiley259

They flattened "the hill" down in Norman when they started UNP.....:Smiley259

Good one. I actually thought the same thing when I was typing that. I noticed they named a street (Mt Williams Dr) after it in UNP.

No need for a regional rail when the only available rail is a there and back again, daily amtrack to FW. but someday, yeah.

More and newer housing near DT, especially between DT and campus, would be a plus. However there is quite a resistance to it in that specific area, from both existing homeowners and the investment owner folks. They derive a tidy income from students renting out their existing structures in the area. Not sure anyone is willing to pay enough for the land to buy the existing folk out.

The tandem one way streets of Main and Gray function fine. The increased parking in between has been beneficial to the various businesses along both streets. Turning each into a two way street simply isn't necessary to improve flow in the area.

A DT hotel would be a nice addition. Although a few new hotels and motels have been added in recent years, each has been several miles removed from DT.

It has been nice though seeing the number of new businesses open DT in recent years. Most seem to be doing well. Hopefully the space vacated by Native Roots will get a new tenant soon.

WichitaSooner - sorry, I just your questions from yesterday. I don't want to turn this into a Devon Tower thread so let me just say that I don't care for all the open space on their site, the lack of on-street parking adjacent to their property, and glass curtain walls. If they gave awards for shinny steel and polished granite Devon Tower is a shoe-in to win. As a pedestrian it offers me nothing. I have much more reason to go in FNC.

If you like traffic go to Norman, they have plenty of it and they have bad roads to go with it. I think everyone agrees with that - even people who live in Norman.

Norman congestion, much like I-35 congestion, is short lived and often vastly overstated. Excluding the 60-90 minutes before a home game or a majorly attended LNC event, and about 30-45 minutes am and pm at a few intersections, Norman is generally a breeze to get around.

UNP can get congested, but that traffic is easily avoided as well. I do it frequently, with near zero difficulty.

Norman congestion, much like I-35 congestion, is short lived and often vastly overstated. Excluding the 60-90 minutes before a home game or a majorly attended LNC event, and about 30-45 minutes am and pm at a few intersections, Norman is generally a breeze to get around.

UNP can get congested, but that traffic is easily avoided as well. I do it frequently, with near zero difficulty.

Ok, so not everyone agrees :)

Amtrak has so much administrative overhead all the funding would be sucked up before the first passenger got on-board. Oklahoma pays a $2 million annual subsidy to Amtrak to run 1 train a day to the Texas border. That is $5,500 per round trip and is on top of what passengers, Texas, and Amtrak pays. I would prefer for the state to run a regional rail system and have Amtrak drop Norman, Purcell, and Pauls Valley from their route.

I'd rather see Sooner Express have another trip or three available, including night trips from OKC to Norman, even if not daily.

Sid, if you are advocating that AmTrak either discontinue national rail service or start up a regional rail division then I would be all for both of those. I watched a Senate Hearing on AmTrak a few months ago and if I remember correctly there was discussion about breaking Amtrak up into 6 regional systems. I just wonder how far down the list Oklahoma will be in securing funding.

I'm for not giving $2M a year to Amtrak and then asking the state for many more millions to build duplicate coverage. How that is devised will take people who know the ins and outs of commuter rail systems better than I. :)

I'm not either. That is why I suggested a state run system connecting OKC with other towns in Oklahoma and AmTrak providing no-stop direct service from OKC to Ft Worth, or whatever Texas decides to do on their side of the border. I'm not sure a state run system would be near as top heavy as a rail system run out of Washington DC.

I was just looking through SEPTA's annual budget and they only spend 5% of their budget on getting the train/bus to move. 59% spent is on labor and admin. I guess you have to ask which level of government would be better at controlling labor costs.

http://www.septa.org/reports/pdf/annual-2011.pdf

No need for a regional rail when the only available rail is a there and back again, daily amtrack to FW. but someday, yeah.

More and newer housing near DT, especially between DT and campus, would be a plus. However there is quite a resistance to it in that specific area, from both existing homeowners and the investment owner folks. They derive a tidy income from students renting out their existing structures in the area. Not sure anyone is willing to pay enough for the land to buy the existing folk out.

The tandem one way streets of Main and Gray function fine. The increased parking in between has been beneficial to the various businesses along both streets. Turning each into a two way street simply isn't necessary to improve flow in the area.

A DT hotel would be a nice addition. Although a few new hotels and motels have been added in recent years, each has been several miles removed from DT.

It has been nice though seeing the number of new businesses open DT in recent years. Most seem to be doing well. Hopefully the space vacated by Native Roots will get a new tenant soon.

The Magnolia Building is a true gem and was beautifully renovated, so a new tenant shouldn't be a problem. I just hope it isn't a restaurant...

Kerry - your thoughts on the alleged I-35 "congestion?" do we need another highway spur or loop down to Norman? Lol

Amtrak has so much administrative overhead all the funding would be sucked up before the first passenger got on-board. Oklahoma pays a $2 million annual subsidy to Amtrak to run 1 train a day to the Texas border. That is $5,500 per round trip and is on top of what passengers, Texas, and Amtrak pays. I would prefer for the state to run a regional rail system and have Amtrak drop Norman, Purcell, and Pauls Valley from their route.

So only stop at Davis, and even more Podunk towns?

Eliminate Davis but Ardmore might could be kept. As for Norman, yes - building a new multi-hundred million dollar freeway around Norman would solve all the problems [/sarc]

XOXDrAk4tpc

Davis isn't a stop.