View Full Version : Putnam City Schools to vote on purchasing 10,000 iPads



Pages : [1] 2

Plutonic Panda
12-17-2012, 10:13 PM
Wowzers..... I don't really know to say. I think it would be cool lending out iPads for students, but would they really be used for educational purposes? Also 6$ mil. is a lot of money for iPads. I don't really have an opinion on this one. ^_^

Midtowner
12-17-2012, 10:40 PM
Wowzers..... I don't really know to say. I think it would be cool lending out iPads for students, but would they really be used for educational purposes? Also 6$ mil. is a lot of money for iPads. I don't really have an opinion on this one. ^_^

If the kids can keep them, they could be highly viable for the purpose of replacing paper textbooks.

onthestrip
12-17-2012, 10:51 PM
It said it would provide enough iPads to have 1 for every 1.9 students.

Plutonic Panda
12-17-2012, 10:56 PM
If the kids can keep them, they could be highly viable for the purpose of replacing paper textbooks.Yeah that what I was thinking too. They could make cost in the long run. But, I would think they should require anyone who get one to purchase their own protective case for the tablet.

BBatesokc
12-18-2012, 04:56 AM
I think its the future and regardless of opinions that is the direction things are going. Personally, I love the idea. Unfortunately the reality is that teenagers have a hard enough time keeping up with their keys, books, cells phones, etc. I did read the proposal, but I wonder how they will handle lost, stolen and broken iPads? Hopefully they all have large serial numbers on them so people don't get them confused. Also wonder if the kids will be able to instal their own apps/music or if they iPads will be restricted.

kevinpate
12-18-2012, 07:08 AM
We pay teachers far below their value to society, but there are funds for ipads? Well, funds enough that 1.9 students can each share an ipad. So Susie can do homework on Mon and Wed and every other weekend, and Jonie can do homework on Tue, Thu, and every other weekend. And, in class they can just scrunch together at a desk to see the clips, articles, etc. that go along with a lesson. If if Susie's beau steps on the ipad on a date night, well, Jonie probably had a date the following night and wasn't planning on studying anyway.

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense ... as an example of how to botch a plan.

Martin
12-18-2012, 08:23 AM
We can pay teachers far below their value to society, but there are funds for ipads?

not to take away from your point, but i'd imagine this is funded by federal grant money rather than the district's budget. -M

Jim Kyle
12-18-2012, 08:59 AM
not to take away from your point, but i'd imagine this is funded by federal grant money rather than the district's budget. -MIf that's the case, why have a bond election? It might be grant money in part, but the bond issue is definitely to raise local money. I'd be in favor of it, were it to go to the teachers and not the administrators, but to buy gadgets that are obsolete by the time they are shipped (as are all things digital, sadly), definitely not a good idea...

onthestrip
12-18-2012, 09:00 AM
not to take away from your point, but i'd imagine this is funded by federal grant money rather than the district's budget. -M

It's a bond issue they will be voting on. It will raise someone property tax $36 for every $1000 they pay in property taxes.

Martin
12-18-2012, 09:24 AM
oh... that's what i get for not reading up on this for myself. wow. technology for students is great and all but certainly there are better things that this money can be spent on, especially if it means an increase in property taxes. -M

MadMonk
12-18-2012, 09:42 AM
I hope they have a method for mobile device management to keep track of those. Otherwise, I'm sure a lot will simply walk off, never to be seen again.

dankrutka
12-18-2012, 09:45 AM
iPads can be a great tool, but a lot of districts buy them without even knowing what do with them. You have to have great training. I think iPads are a bit of a fad and small computers would be a better buy. There are so many things that iPads don't do...

BBatesokc
12-18-2012, 09:52 AM
I'm thinking they might could better spend our tax dollars with something cheaper like the Kindle.

Pete
12-18-2012, 10:25 AM
Keep in mind Apple typically gives massive discounts for schools, which is why you see Macs in almost every educational computer lab, from elementary through graduate schools.

There are already 2,600 iPads in use by the district and there are far more education apps and publications for the iPad than any other tablet.

Also, apps for iPad are pretty tightly controlled, so that's a good screening mechanism right out of the gate.


I'm sure they've thought through the maintenance/repair/loss issues, as they would be far from the first school to issue iPads or computers to the majority of their students.

I think it's really an ambitious and forward-thinking plan and I have no doubt it would be a awesome teaching aid, and not just for electronic textbooks.


It's way, way past time to revolutionize the centuries old paradigm of a single adult standing in front of a class of 20-40 kids monologging. The educational system -- due to it's completely insular nature -- has been way too slow to change; arguably the most lagging large business sector in the world.

SoonerDave
12-18-2012, 12:44 PM
This is a public perception move more than anything, IMHO.

Public perception: "Ooh, gee whiz, they're getting iPads, they're high-tech, they're cutting-edge. They made the news!"

Reality: About 70-90% of the books needed aren't available in an electronic format consumable on an iPad or any other electronic format. Teachers are still absurdly underpaid for the expectations given them, or are expected to overcome the inertia from absentee parents that don't realize parent is a verb, or to overcome the broken down walls, windows, doors, fixtures, desks, air conditioners, heaters, and buildings that have gone untouched for months or years.

But they'll have iPads!

Sorry, I"m going to stop here, because if I don't, I'm just going to go into serious rant mode. And, no, this isn't even close to it. This is just more infuriation handed down to our children by mindless and clueless school bureaucrats because it looks cool, it seems educational, and is coupled with the perception of the availability of perpetual subsidy by the taxpayer.

BoulderSooner
12-18-2012, 12:45 PM
sorry but the idea that teachers are absurdly underpaid simply is not true ..

SoonerDave
12-18-2012, 12:46 PM
sorry but the idea that teachers are absurdly underpaid simply is not true ..

Boulder, unless you have some first-hand knowledge of my wife's paycheck combined with the hours she puts in, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Pete
12-18-2012, 01:09 PM
GOOD teachers are underpaid, BAD and average teachers are way over-paid and over-protected.

The teachers unions will not allow performance based incentives, so this is the system we have. And spare us the "teaching isn't like making widgets" argument, because virtually all job-related performance is evaluated pretty subjectively (we ARE a service-based economy, after all) and that process hasn't exactly held back U.S. business and industry.

In other words, teachers only have themselves to blame for their pay scales yet they want to throw that up as an obstacle whenever innovation or reform is proposed. Of course you never hear about how they are largely protected by tenure and receive way more in pension than almost anyone in private industry.

I also am tired of the "work so many hours" mantra. What motivated professional doesn't put in 10+ hours a day and take their work home with them?


I have tremendous respect for the good teachers out there but collectively, there are too many that hold education back through the constant drumbeat of rhetoric.

BoulderSooner
12-18-2012, 01:17 PM
Boulder, unless you have some first-hand knowledge of my wife's paycheck combined with the hours she puts in, you have no clue what you're talking about.

she is not absurdly underpaid based on the hours she is REQUIRED to work in a year compared to any other job with comparable educational requirements

ewoodard70
12-18-2012, 01:32 PM
Pete;
I would like to hear what you would base a teacher's performance incentive on. I would also like to know what you think a teacher's benefit package and pension plan actually is. I am just curious as to what you are basing your statements on.

Pete
12-18-2012, 01:46 PM
A teacher's performance could be easily evaluated by a principal, department head, committee of peers... The same ways all other jobs are usually evaluated. And just like any other business, those that receive the best evaluations get bigger raises and those who aren't pulling their weight are put on notice and then terminated if there isn't significant improvement. Again, pretty standard operating procedure in any other business (save some government jobs).


As far as benefits and pensions, I am merely comparing what the teachers I know receive in these areas as opposed to what others typically receive in the same pay class. Teachers still receive good health insurance and pensions... The latter is almost non-existent in private industry these days and the former is increasingly rare.

Teachers can leave every day at 2 or 3PM if they choose, get tons of paid holiday leave (Christmas, spring break, fall break, etc.) plus every single summer off where they can either teach summer school or get another job for more income -- or merely just take months off every single year.

They are also routinely given automatic pay raises for completing advanced degrees; usually protected by tenure, etc.


I'm not saying teaching is some sort of easy street, but there are lots of upsides that never get spoken about because ALL you ever hear about is how they are woefully underpaid.

BTW, the average teacher in Oklahoma is paid around $45K in salary for 9 months of work, and benefits are year-round. Many teachers make well more than this and supplement their income in many other ways. It's certainly not fantastic pay but it's not horrible either.

SoonerDave
12-18-2012, 02:27 PM
Pete, while I respect your opinion, I would as respectfully as possible like to point out a few errors in your last posting.

[quote]Teachers can leave every day at 2 or 3PM if they choose,

Simply not accurate.

Not at my wife's school. School doesn't release until 3:30 pm at the latest, and she cannot leave until the last of her students are picked up - and if a parent opts to delay picking up their charge by a half-hour (or more) for whatever reason, she stays until they arrive.

If everyone leaves exactly on time, she then has to prepare paperwork and written lesson plans for the next day's classes, which means making close to four-dozen sets of copies assuming the one copier in the building isn't broken, or other teachers aren't waiting in line for it. And that's further assuming there's not a mandatory faculty meeting, specialty council meeting, book selection meeting, mandatory training session, continuing education seminar, workshop, parent-teacher conference, or IEP (special-needs education) planning meeting (to name only a few I can recall).

And if any of those things interfere with getting paperwork ready for the next day, all that copying and preparation gets pushed back later in the week, or, at times, to avoid meeting conflicts, the following week's paperwork gets copied and organized in advance on a Friday afternoon, which pushes "go home" time to around 6pm or later.

And this doesn't even scratch the surface of the kinds of things that cause drastic departures in schedules.

Then, we get to talk about what she does once she goes home, off the clock, dealing with parents angered that they're being bothered because their precious little SuzyQ got in trouble, misbehaved, didn't turn in proper papers, or didn't turn in money for some event.

I'll be honest with you, Pete. I used to be one of those people who thought teachers kicked back at 2:30-3pm and relaxed.

I was wrong. I hope in some way I've conveyed just how wrong.



BTW, the average teacher in Oklahoma is paid around $45K in salary for 9 months of work, and benefits are year-round.

My wife has been in OK public schools for not quite a decade. She makes about 2/3's that. She's received great annual reviews, compliments from principals, and received appointment to special councils, and the automatic step increases have put her well short of your $45K figure.



Teachers still receive good health insurance and pensions


My wife has the option for insurance, but it is so poor we decline it in favor of my own health coverage (for which we're very thankful). And the Oklahoma Teachers Retirement system is one of the most notoriously underfunded (bordering on insolvent?) such funds in the country.

Yes, she does get two months summer break, plus the breaks you point out.

SoonerDave
12-18-2012, 02:29 PM
she is not absurdly underpaid based on the hours she is REQUIRED to work in a year compared to any other job with comparable educational requirements

Define "required." If you limit your answer to the clock hours on the contract, you are being disingenuously naive. Please read my response to Pete on perceptions versus reality.

And, again, you really have no clue what you're talking about, Boulder. You really, really don't.

Pete
12-18-2012, 02:35 PM
Dave, you know I mean absolutely no disrespect to your wife, who is probably one of the great teachers that deserve well more than she is paid.

I should also state that for seven years I ran a nonprofit in Los Angeles that provided services to at-risk teens and their families and a big part of our work was in junior highs and high schools, so I not only interacted with teachers but was frequently in classrooms while they were teaching. So believe me, I have a very deep appreciation for the challenges and hard work that goes into that profession. I'm not sure I could do what they do, for any amount of money.

It's precisely because teaching is such an important and challenging job that I believe the unions are doing not only a great disservice to the good teachers out there, but also the educational system as a whole.

For the most part, they are interested in protecting teachers at all costs, even the ones that have no business being in that profession. What you have now is basically a form of communism, whereby everyone is paid and treated pretty much the same, regardless of performance and dedication. Sure, you'll always have a job but those motivated and passionate will never be fairly compensated.

SoonerDave
12-18-2012, 02:40 PM
Dave, you know I mean absolutely no disrespect to your wife, who is probably one of the great teachers that deserve well more than she is paid.

I should also state that for seven years I ran a nonprofit in Los Angeles that provided services to at-risk teens and their families and a big part of our work was in junior highs and high schools, so I not only interacted with teachers but was frequently in classrooms while they were teaching. So believe me, I have a very deep appreciation for the challenges and hard work that go into that profession. I'm not sure I could do what they do, for any amount of money.

It's precisely because teaching is such an important and challenging job that I believe the unions are doing not only a great disservice to the good teachers out there, but also the educational system as a whole.

For the most part, they are interested in protecting teachers at all costs, even the ones that have no business being in that profession. What you have now is basically a form of communism, whereby everyone is paid and treated pretty much the same, regardless of performance and dedication. Sure, you'll always have a job but those motivated and passionate will never be fairly compensated.

I know you don't mean any disrespect, Pete; it's all good :) I see my wife come home some afternoons, once in a while in tears, out of complete frustration at knowing no matter what she does, some of the kids in her classes are in a financial/home environment that 6-7 hours at school aren't going to fix. Broken families. Grandparents raising grandkids. Brothers raising sisters. And so on.

I am 100% behind you in the way teachers unions are destroying the profession and the educational system. I couldn't have expressed those sentiments any better than you just did.

There's no magic bullet to fix the education system, but I sure wish we could figure out a way to pry it out of the hands of those that control it right now.

Pete
12-18-2012, 02:50 PM
Here is something I routinely observed at several different schools here in LA: A good number of kids were merely placed in the back of the class and were not really part of what was happening. They sat somewhat removed, goofing around, not paying attention, etc. And the teachers pretty much ignored them.

At first, I was completely shocked, especially because this seemed to be common even in classes taught by teachers I thought were particularly good. I finally asked one of them and this is what she said (paraphrasing): "I call them the Walking Dead. They are beyond hope so I merely try to keep them separated so I can concentrate on those who have at least a small desire to learn."

It's that sort of reality that even good teachers can't do much about. The bad ones (and there were plenty) would sit and read magazines while the kids basically did what they wanted.

BoulderSooner
12-19-2012, 06:53 AM
[Quote=Pete]
My wife has been in OK public schools for not quite a decade. She makes about 2/3's that. She's received great annual reviews, compliments from principals, and received appointment to special councils, and the automatic step increases have put her well short of your $45K figure.


so almost most 10 years and she makes around 30k ... i'm sorry i don't buy that not unless she is at some private school by choice

the 100% min she could make at 9 years is 35k+ ...

SoonerDave
12-19-2012, 08:14 AM
[QUOTE=SoonerDave;604387]

so almost most 10 years and she makes around 30k ... i'm sorry i don't buy that not unless she is at some private school by choice

the 100% min she could make at 9 years is 35k+ ...

Fine, Boulder, you believe whatever you want. I'm not pursuing this discussion with you any further.

metro
12-19-2012, 09:27 AM
We pay teachers far below their value to society, but there are funds for ipads? Well, funds enough that 1.9 students can each share an ipad. So Susie can do homework on Mon and Wed and every other weekend, and Jonie can do homework on Tue, Thu, and every other weekend. And, in class they can just scrunch together at a desk to see the clips, articles, etc. that go along with a lesson. If if Susie's beau steps on the ipad on a date night, well, Jonie probably had a date the following night and wasn't planning on studying anyway.

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense ... as an example of how to botch a plan.

Wouldn't be an issue as no one has named their kid Jonie or Susie since the 70's, hopefully they are out of high school by now. I kid, I kid.

BoulderSooner
12-19-2012, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE=BoulderSooner;604575]

Fine, Boulder, you believe whatever you want. I'm not pursuing this discussion with you any further.

i don't have to believe whatever i want ... i have facts .. State Minimum Teacher Salary Schedule | State Department of Education (http://ok.gov/sde/state-minimum-teacher-salary-schedule)

this is minimum salary for 9 years is 35,100 .... most teachers make more then the minimum

ewoodard70
12-19-2012, 09:44 AM
A teacher's performance could be easily evaluated by a principal, department head, committee of peers... The same ways all other jobs are usually evaluated. And just like any other business, those that receive the best evaluations get bigger raises and those who aren't pulling their weight are put on notice and then terminated if there isn't significant improvement. Again, pretty standard operating procedure in any other business (save some government jobs).


As far as benefits and pensions, I am merely comparing what the teachers I know receive in these areas as opposed to what others typically receive in the same pay class. Teachers still receive good health insurance and pensions... The latter is almost non-existent in private industry these days and the former is increasingly rare.

Teachers can leave every day at 2 or 3PM if they choose, get tons of paid holiday leave (Christmas, spring break, fall break, etc.) plus every single summer off where they can either teach summer school or get another job for more income -- or merely just take months off every single year.

They are also routinely given automatic pay raises for completing advanced degrees; usually protected by tenure, etc.


I'm not saying teaching is some sort of easy street, but there are lots of upsides that never get spoken about because ALL you ever hear about is how they are woefully underpaid.

BTW, the average teacher in Oklahoma is paid around $45K in salary for 9 months of work, and benefits are year-round. Many teachers make well more than this and supplement their income in many other ways. It's certainly not fantastic pay but it's not horrible either.

Teachers have always been evaluated by building administrators. These evaluations and recommendations are then sent to the local school board and the board then decides to retain or not. These evaluations are also placed on our personnel files. What I want to ask you is what criteria would you use to determine who gets raises and who doesn't?

The tenure issue is about cause. The administrations has to show cause to fire a tenured teacher, and it is not as hard as it appears. All that has to be done is documentation that a tenured teacher is not doing the work expected of them. They will be placed on a Plan of Improvement and give a set amount of time (not sure how long) to show the required improvement. Our state legislature removed the trial aspect of this process to make it cheaper to fire a teacher. As a union teacher or not I should have the ability to stand up to administrators that I feel is not working in the best interests of the school/community without the fear of being fired for it.

I understand that our perks looks good those not involved with public schools, and I hear people say all the time they don't think they could do this job no matter the pay. So why are so many blaming teachers for the supposed failure of our schools? Every teacher I know works hard to teach the kids what the state says they must teach, even the kids that are not interested in learning that material. I understand that as teachers and as a union we have not done a very good job of elaborating what goes on in the classroom, but believe me that there are not as many bad teachers as the general public thinks.

I appreciate the dialogue here and would like to thank you for the politeness of your opinion, as I have dealt with many antagonistic types when dealing with this topic.

p.s. I'll try to do a little research on teacher retirement and get back with you.

ewoodard70
12-19-2012, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=SoonerDave;604588]

i don't have to believe whatever i want ... i have facts .. State Minimum Teacher Salary Schedule | State Department of Education (http://ok.gov/sde/state-minimum-teacher-salary-schedule)

this is minimum salary for 9 years is 35,100 .... most teachers make more then the minimum

That depends upon which district a teacher is employed. Some districts go above the state minimum, but not all. The pay scale is kind of difficult to read if you are careful.

I am at step 19 on the Bachelor scale, so my pay has 2 possibilities depending on the option I take. If I don't take the state sponsored health insurance then my pay is $42,037, but if I take the insurance my pay is $46,594. Include in those figures is 2,812 the district pays to teacher retirement. So if you take all of that money out of the equation then my pay is $37,362. that last number is my bring home pay. Yes I know that the insurance money is for my benefit, but the state legislature approved the money to bring teachers in line with other government employees. That does not change my bring home pay money. Now divide the bring home by 12 and you will see my monthly total before taxes and other deductions. I currently deposit about $2,500 (I also coach football for $1,300/year) after taxes and other deductions.

BoulderSooner
12-19-2012, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=BoulderSooner;604610]

That depends upon which district a teacher is employed. Some districts go above the state minimum, but not all. The pay scale is kind of difficult to read if you are careful.

I am at step 19 on the Bachelor scale, so my pay has 2 possibilities depending on the option I take. If I don't take the state sponsored health insurance then my pay is $42,037, but if I take the insurance my pay is $46,594. Include in those figures is 2,812 the district pays to teacher retirement. So if you take all of that money out of the equation then my pay is $37,362. that last number is my bring home pay. Yes I know that the insurance money is for my benefit, but the state legislature approved the money to bring teachers in line with other government employees. That does not change my bring home pay money. Now divide the bring home by 12 and you will see my monthly total before taxes and other deductions. I currently deposit about $2,500 (I also coach football for $1,300/year) after taxes and other deductions.

i know steps and years of service are not always the same thing ... but according to the linked chart .. if you have 19 years of service should be $39,775 before any district payed retirement ..


i'm sure lots of small/rural districts pay the min ... but edmond for instance starts teachers at 3k above the min

kelroy55
12-19-2012, 10:09 AM
My question is how many here would work the hours teachers do for what they get paid? I don't know if teachers get paid for the summer when they are off or if their salary is spread out through the year.

Oklahoma teacher pay...
Average Teacher Salary Rank: 47th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 42nd
Salary raise last year: 0.2 %
Oklahoma is 29th on our comfort scale with a starting salary of $35,880 and average salaries of $44,343.

Beginning with the 2012-2013 school year, teachers in the public schools of Oklahoma shall receive in salary and/or fringe benefits not less than the amount specified in the following schedule. When determining minimum salary, “fringe benefits” shall mean only the employee's share of retirement, if paid by the district. A teacher with 20 years’ experience and a Doctoral Degree will make not less than 46K a year which I assume they don't make a whole lot more than that..
State Minimum Teacher Salary Schedule | State Department of Education (http://ok.gov/sde/state-minimum-teacher-salary-schedule)

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/mccluskey-high-teacher-pay-oklahoma-june-2009.pdf

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

BoulderSooner
12-19-2012, 10:26 AM
My question is how many here would work the hours teachers do for what they get paid? I don't know if teachers get paid for the summer when they are off or if their salary is spread out through the year.

Oklahoma teacher pay...
Average Teacher Salary Rank: 47th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 42nd
Salary raise last year: 0.2 %
Oklahoma is 29th on our comfort scale with a starting salary of $35,880 and average salaries of $44,343.

Beginning with the 2012-2013 school year, teachers in the public schools of Oklahoma shall receive in salary and/or fringe benefits not less than the amount specified in the following schedule. When determining minimum salary, “fringe benefits” shall mean only the employee's share of retirement, if paid by the district. A teacher with 20 years’ experience and a Doctoral Degree will make not less than 46K a year which I assume they don't make a whole lot more than that..
State Minimum Teacher Salary Schedule | State Department of Education (http://ok.gov/sde/state-minimum-teacher-salary-schedule)

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/mccluskey-high-teacher-pay-oklahoma-june-2009.pdf

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

a 20 year phd in norman and edmond make closer to 60 a year not 46 ... and as stated above most of the big school districts start well above and stay above the min

Mr. Cotter
12-19-2012, 10:26 AM
My wife teaches in PC, and has a master's degree. We moved here from Ohio, and she will have to teach 14 years in Oklahoma before she makes what she made her last year in Ohio.

It's a whole lot of work for the money.

BoulderSooner
12-19-2012, 10:28 AM
My wife teaches in PC, and has a master's degree. We moved here from Ohio, and she will have to teach 14 years in Oklahoma before she makes what she made her last year in Ohio.

It's a whole lot of work for the money.

is the cost of living the same here as in ohio??

kelroy55
12-19-2012, 10:36 AM
a 20 year phd in norman and edmond make closer to 60 a year not 46 ... and as stated above most of the big school districts start well above and stay above the min


Those were the minimums listed. "make not less than 46K a year" It's still sad that a PhD. Educator makes less than I do and they are responsible for teaching our children.

BoulderSooner
12-19-2012, 10:41 AM
Those were the minimums listed. "make not less than 46K a year" It's still sad that a PhD. Educator makes less than I do and they are responsible for teaching our children.

and you said "I assume they don't make a whole lot more than that" ..which is not correct

Mr. Cotter
12-19-2012, 10:44 AM
is the cost of living the same here as in ohio??

Similar enough. Our monthy expenses to maintain the same level of comfort are roughly the same. The only big change has been our transportation budget, which is much higer in Oklahoma than it was in Ohio.

Pete
12-19-2012, 10:48 AM
BTW, the never-ending moaning about teacher pay has another huge negative consequence: It discourages young people from considering teaching as a career.

Because this always, ALWAYS comes up when anything about education is discussed, it creates the impression that you have to be willing to live in poverty to consider joining the teaching profession.

I can tell you that for these reasons I never even thought about this career option and I know many others feel the same... While the truth is that if you are willing to work hard, continue your education, take on additional responsibility and work summers, you can make a decent and even a good living.


Teacher compensation is rarely accurately portrayed and that contributes to a lack of good people in that profession and consequently, the entire educational system suffers.

ewoodard70
12-19-2012, 10:59 AM
[QUOTE=ewoodard70;604618]

i know steps and years of service are not always the same thing ... but according to the linked chart .. if you have 19 years of service should be $39,775 before any district payed retirement ..


i'm sure lots of small/rural districts pay the min ... but edmond for instance starts teachers at 3k above the min

A step is the years of experience. You'll notice on the linked schedule that it starts with 0 and goes up, this is due to the fact that a 1st year teacher has no experience or service as you put it. Step 19 is a teacher that has taught for 20 years.

If you will take the time to search district websites you can find the district schedule that shows the negotiated base salary. Then you add in the district paid retirement and you get what is the total compensation. Then you will see where there are more columns to the right that are retirement credit, flexible benefit option 1, compensation option 1, flex benefit option 2, and compensation option 2.
Here are a couple that I found so that you can see what I am talking about.

http://www.mid-del.net/education/staff/staff.php?sectiondetailid=48562&

http://www.guthrie.k12.ok.us/cms/lib3/OK01000900/Centricity/Domain/39/Negotiated%20Agreement%202012-2013.pdf

NoOkie
12-19-2012, 11:17 AM
A teacher's performance could be easily evaluated by a principal, department head, committee of peers... The same ways all other jobs are usually evaluated. And just like any other business, those that receive the best evaluations get bigger raises and those who aren't pulling their weight are put on notice and then terminated if there isn't significant improvement. Again, pretty standard operating procedure in any other business (save some government jobs).

My concern with this is that there seems to be a move towards metrics-based assessments in our school systems. With all the focus on testing, I have concerns that teachers' performance reviews in this situation would be based on their students test scores as opposed to a fair supervisory and peer review.

While metrics can work for some types of jobs, I think it's a bad method for education. From talking to my step-sons and other parents, there seems to be a real focus on teaching the test and not actually educating our children. Standardized tests give numbers, statistics and charts that are easy to condense into reports for high level administrators. I imagine teachers would get sucked into the same scenario.

Pete
12-19-2012, 11:41 AM
I agree that test scores are not a good or fair way to evaluate teachers, which is why I suggested more subjective measures that are commonly used in almost every other business.

One of the reasons metrics are being used, though, is because this is how the government is evaluating schools and districts... So, they are merely trying to pass this accountability down through the teaching ranks.


At the school/district level, metrics ARE important. Otherwise, there are too many incentives to just push kids through the system without any objective standards.

For example, most schools are paid through Average Daily Attendance numbers, so they do everything they can to keep kids in school -- but not necessarily make sure they are learning. In California for example, about ten years ago they mandated that all high school graduates pass a remedial proficiency exam before they received their diploma. This was necessary because districts were graduating kids without holding them to any real standard.

To show you how bad things get without some sort of standardize testing, almost half the HS students in Los Angeles USD (the nation's second largest district) could not pass this crazy easy exam. Keeping in mind that more than half the kids that start 9th grade in LAUSD do not even make it through their senior year, that meant less than a quarter of all LA high school students knew as much as most of us had already learned by about the 5th grade.


I think there is a way to do both... To hold districts accountable through metrics, while at the same time evaluating teachers on a more subjective basis.

Hawk405359
12-19-2012, 11:50 AM
As for the topic at hand, why tablets? Have you ever tried to write a paper on a tablet? It's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to do. You can read e-books on computers if you want to switch away from paper textbooks. Yeah, you have apps, but big deal, you don't need apps to learn anything and there's nothing in an app store that you can't get for an actual computer.

Just seems like a terrible investment to me.

NoOkie
12-20-2012, 09:36 AM
As for the topic at hand, why tablets? Have you ever tried to write a paper on a tablet? It's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to do. You can read e-books on computers if you want to switch away from paper textbooks. Yeah, you have apps, but big deal, you don't need apps to learn anything and there's nothing in an app store that you can't get for an actual computer.

Just seems like a terrible investment to me.

There are tablet specific education apps that don't exist for computers. Lots of enhanced textbooks. Some of them look pretty incredible. I find tablets more comfortable to read with than a computer, personally.

I think if you modify the curriculum to work with the technology, there's a lot of potential. I heard a story on NPR(Can't find the specific ones) about a school system that was using technology to time shift lectures(Basically, the students watch the lectures as part of their homework), freeing up class time for more small-group work and help. Coupled with some in-app methods of getting help after hours, it seemed like a clever idea. I remember reading another story about how college professors were using iPod touches in their class for a lot of surprising uses.

tl;dr Technology, when leveraged right, can be an awesome tool. Just buying some tablets, throwing them at students and saying "Technology will help our kids!" is worthless.

Larry OKC
12-20-2012, 05:16 PM
I am not against ipads and technology in general for schools but taking out long term bond debt for something that is going to be obsolete in months is rather foolish. Like taking out a second mortgage on your home to get the oil changed on the car. There are appropriate things to use bond money for, this is one of them. Find another way to fund this kind of stuff.

It makes me think that Putnam City has run out of things (like buildings etc) where using bond money makes since and they are just looking for a project to spend money on...

BBatesokc
12-20-2012, 05:51 PM
I am not against ipads and technology in general for schools but taking out long term bond debt for something that is going to be obsolete in months is rather foolish. Like taking out a second mortgage on your home to get the oil changed on the car. There are appropriate things to use bond money for, this is one of them. Find another way to fund this kind of stuff.

It makes me think that Putnam City has run out of things (like buildings etc) where using bond money makes since and they are just looking for a project to spend money on...

I think its unfair to say new iPads for students today will be 'obsolete' in 'months.' Schools, businesses, etc. get along just fine with computers that are many years old.

What I would like to see is the project savings if students/school move to tablet based text books over traditional text books. No only could tablet based books save money on buying books, but also on presentation material. No need for overhead projectors and such if everyone is on a sync'd tablet.

Are book publishers willing to cut their prices drastically for digital textbooks?

LandRunOkie
12-20-2012, 09:47 PM
I like Apple products as well, or at least did in the Jobs era. But the iPad seems more of a status symbol than educational tool. About reduced price for digital books, not really. That's the surprising thing. Books cost about as much as e-books. I'm pretty tech savvy, but give me a regular book any day.

Plutonic Panda
12-20-2012, 11:35 PM
I like Apple products as well, or at least did in the Jobs era. But the iPad seems more of a status symbol than educational tool. About reduced price for digital books, not really. That's the surprising thing. Books cost about as much as e-books. I'm pretty tech savvy, but give me a regular book any day.Yeah my grandmother is like that. I guess she said she just likes the "feel" of a real book. I also think that Apple products are waaaaaay over priced though.

Dubya61
12-21-2012, 11:06 AM
I think if you modify the curriculum to work with the technology, there's a lot of potential. I heard a story on NPR(Can't find the specific ones) about a school system that was using technology to time shift lectures(Basically, the students watch the lectures as part of their homework), freeing up class time for more small-group work and help. Coupled with some in-app methods of getting help after hours, it seemed like a clever idea. I remember reading another story about how college professors were using iPod touches in their class for a lot of surprising uses.

tl;dr Technology, when leveraged right, can be an awesome tool. Just buying some tablets, throwing them at students and saying "Technology will help our kids!" is worthless.

It was "The Story" and the school used the at home "homework" time for lectures (like you said) and had all the at school classroom time to individually hammer in the topic with one-on-one or small group interaction. The teacher in question said it interested the students more and improved grades.

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 01:28 PM
So, when I buy one of these iPads on Ebay can I get the "Property of PC Schools" sticker off easily?

Plutonic Panda
12-24-2012, 01:41 PM
So, when I buy one of these iPads on Ebay can I get the "Property of PC Schools" sticker off easily?Probably. While you are getting the sticker off, the parents will be busy getting questioned and/or fined for the missing iPad. Come on, do you really think they wouldn't know what was going on if you just "forgot" your iPad after awhile?

Just the facts
12-24-2012, 02:32 PM
Probably. While you are getting the sticker off, the parents will be busy getting questioned and/or fined for the missing iPad. Come on, do you really think they wouldn't know what was going on if you just "forgot" your iPad after awhile?

That is the pot smoking kid's problem, not mine. All I know is I got an unused iPad cheap, Apple got a charitable tax write off, the kid got some pot (or whatever it is kids spend money on these days) and the parents got a bill. Seems everyone got what they want/deserve.

Plutonic Panda
12-24-2012, 02:36 PM
That is the pot smoking kid's problem, not mine. All I kow is I got an iPad cheap, the kid used the money to buy some pot (or whatever it is kids spend money on these days) and the parents got a bill. Seems everyone got what the want/deserve.As long as there is a way to recover the cost from the people that choose to take advantage of this. I think that those people that will do that crap are in the minority and with everything you will have scumbags that will do that. Just like the people that rented bikes at Spokies and stole them.

Larry OKC
12-26-2012, 12:41 PM
I like Apple products as well, or at least did in the Jobs era. But the iPad seems more of a status symbol than educational tool. About reduced price for digital books, not really. That's the surprising thing. Books cost about as much as e-books. I'm pretty tech savvy, but give me a regular book any day.

They shouldn't by any means because you don't have the cost of paper, press time and the manufacturing process. The same electronic file that makes the printed book is the basis for the e-book. If they are charging the same for it, they are wallowing in the profits (as if they weren't before).


BBatesokc
By obsolete I meant that the next, better, cheaper model will be out within a few months and many many multiple times by the time the bonds are paid off...and truly obsolete by the time the bond is paid.

Pete
12-26-2012, 12:44 PM
Future teachers learning with iPads at University of Oklahoma

The next generation of teachers to graduate from the University of Oklahoma will be armed with iPads as part of a pilot program designed to integrate education and technology.

Future teachers learning with iPads at University of Oklahoma | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/future-teachers-learning-with-ipads-at-university-of-oklahoma/article/3740428)

jerrywall
01-02-2013, 12:56 PM
So my son got sent home a replacement cost list with his books for 6th grade. I just went and added them up. $750 for his books. New iPads can be purchased for $500, and probably less with Apple's education assistance. And every single one of these text books has digital version (I know, because they came with a url to a site to access every text book, in case they leave one at school and need homework).

If my son loses, burns, or sells his books, I have to pay to replace them. In the meantime, he's carrying around books which weigh a ton, are several years out of date, and will need to be replaced.

An iPad would be lighter, could always be updated to the most current information, and has potentially a 10 year shelf life. Most homework could be done on the ipad, and electronically submitted (obviously, hand writing assignments would need to be done on paper). Make use of the tough cases for ipads, and they're almost indestructible.

Whether it's an iPad or another table device (such as a kindle fire) I think it's just a matter of time for schools to switch from physical text books to electronic. It's more cost effective, easier, and can improve safety (no reason for book bags and lockers at School, so less places to hide weapons, etc). Add in the enhanced materials (when reading about civil rights, be able to launch videos, etc) you could improve education as well.

Pete
01-02-2013, 04:16 PM
^

Great post.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience and perspective.

Larry OKC
01-02-2013, 10:14 PM
jerrywall: great post and I don't disagree with any of it. But the question remains, does it make sense to take out long term bond debt (prob at least 10 years) to do this?