View Full Version : Is Norman going downhill??



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Spartan
11-12-2012, 12:55 PM
I don't mean to start an incendiary thread off the bat, but I think the question has been raised in several threads, and now it totally warrants its own discussion. I feel as though there are both tangible and intangible ways in which Norman has gone downhill. The biggest way that Norman has gone downhill is from losing the promise and potential that it was showing in 2005, when things were going very well, Norman was looking at an avalanche of great urban development, attracting more good jobs than anywhere else in the metro, the demographics were promising for bringing in retailers that existed nowhere else in the metro, and so on. Above all, Norman in 2005 was the undisputed epicenter of Central Oklahoma's urban professional culture.

Today all of those urban professionals have either moved to Deep Deuce or OKC's inner north side. Norman is losing more good jobs than anywhere else in the metro. Most of that promising development fell flat due to poor city development oversight and a city council that is far more interested in sprawl development at the expense of inner Norman. And now there is no way that Norman will live up to the potential it was showing in 2005.

Campus Corner has held on and remained healthy. Downtown Norman experienced a resurgence between 2005-2009. Now the Norman city council is actively preempting other areas from experiencing urban growth (saying no to high-rise development along Boyd). Furthermore, the only city in Central Oklahoma that used to be anti-sprawl, is now the epicenter of distasteful, low-quality sprawl development. Cheaply-built apartments on NW 36th, bring em on. UNP strip mall instead of a lifestyle center. So on and so forth.

It is fair to say that Norman is nose-diving. As far as college towns go, Norman used to be unparalleled in Oklahoma. Now Stillwater and Edmond have caught up.

ou48A
11-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.

Norman leadership has devoted far too much attention to social justice issues and to issues that don’t promote the general prosperity of the great majority of its citizens. Any time they waste time on those things takes away time that would be better spent on bring more and better jobs to Norman.

Norman very badly needs better streets and area highways that go well beyond any current plans.

The good news is that for the most part all that’s really required is a better set of priorities from the city leadership at the top.

adaniel
11-12-2012, 01:30 PM
Is Norman going downhill? Not really.

Is Norman at a significant crossroads? Very much so. And I've heard from several people outside this board that the city is stagnating.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Norman was the center of urban professional culture in OK, because frankly, there has never been all that much white collar employment in Norman. The city, however, was setting itself up nicely to be a nice college town/satellite city hybrid, much like Ann Arbor is to Detroit. Or at least it seemed it was when I first came to Norman in 2004.

Somewhere between now and then, something went very wrong. Not all of it the city's fault. UNP was a bad gamble that blew up in the face of the city because of the 2008 meltdown. They are making the best of it. But I have to ask, why put so much effort into developing an "upscale mall" on the outskirts of the city when (a) Moore was/is clearly winning the "big box" retail battle and (b) Norman had such a great core with its downtown and Campus Corner, both of which could have been drastically improved with only moderate investments and commitment.

Other things the city has done have been far more troubling. Losing Dell to OKC. Losing Petco to San Antonio. Ignoring badly needed infrastructure improvements. Giving lip service to the eTec business incubator. Not facilitating any sort of office development (such as the 15 story tower proposal) that would lure white collar jobs. If Norman wants to stand on its own and be out of the shadow of OKC its going to have to have some sort of economic base. The massive amount of traffic commuting out of Norman every morning says otherwise.

Cindy Rosenthal is a very nice lady, and I have met her personally. But she really has no vision for the city. Her job is incredibly difficult. She must balance out the wishes of three factions of Norman, the liberal, college town set, the suburban commuters who've moved there over the past 20 years, and the conservative townies that can be found in any Oklahoma county seat.

I have left Norman 3 years ago and now live in midtown, and at least 2 of my neighbors have done the same thing in the past 18 months. I'm interested to hear what others think can snap the town out of its funk. Maybe a MAP's style slate of projects. What would be included in them?

vaflyer
11-12-2012, 05:13 PM
Cindy Rosenthal is a very nice lady, and I have met her personally. But she really has no vision for the city. Her job is incredibly difficult. She must balance out the wishes of three factions of Norman, the liberal, college town set, the suburban commuters who've moved there over the past 20 years, and the conservative townies that can be found in any Oklahoma county seat.

I believe the city is in need of change in the mayor's office. Cindy Rosenthal is the longest serving member on council (as the mayor and previously as Ward 4 councilmember). The job requires a ton of time and just drains people. Norman needs new blood with new ideas as it is losing the retail war (and the associated sales tax dollars) to Moore. As for jobs, the city is actively chasing that advanced aircraft parts manufacturing facility but, from what I have heard, the manufacturing jobs are nothing great to write home about. Furthermore, the city has gone from #6 best city to live in to somewhere in the 90's (and Moore is now higher) during the Mayor's tenure.

OKCisOK4me
11-12-2012, 05:17 PM
no comment

Spartan
11-12-2012, 05:23 PM
The problem with throwing Rosenthal under the bus is that she's the only person on the council who actually has the right ideas. However, as a leader, she has been proven beyond inept. Is her job difficult? Sure, but that has only exacerbated the weakness of her leadership as she lets the Tea Party wackadoos on council run over her each week.


Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.

Norman leadership has devoted far too much attention to social justice issues and to issues that don’t promote the general prosperity of the great majority of its citizens. Any time they waste time on those things takes away time that would be better spent on bring more and better jobs to Norman.

Norman very badly needs better streets and area highways that go well beyond any current plans.

The good news is that for the most part all that’s really required is a better set of priorities from the city leadership at the top.

I think this post kind of highlights the problem with Norman. It's true that there are some very backward forces holding the city back (much like Tulsa, which is also going downhill) while the opposing progressive forces are clearly succeeding in OKC and Stillwater. Norman needs to see itself more as the state's 4th largest city and less as a suburb of OKC.

Norman won't grow and live up to its potential by listening to gripes like, "Grrr, stop with the damn social issues, and the sewage hookup fees, grrr!!" and "Grr, more highways, repave every road, wider roads, grrr!" I absolutely agree that Norman needs to focus on 3 things: 1, what makes it unique (Campus Corner, downtown, and maybe even a willingness to talk about a link between high school gay bashing and teen suicide); 2, Tech, which is the huge missed opportunity; and 3, growing office space, which is absolutely vital to growing the white collar workforce.

I interned in Norman's City Hall several years ago at a time when the progressives were beginning to capitulate. I went to several of the initial meetings on the Porter streetscape plan, and when that was first began several years ago, there was so much optimism around there. Now it's just the "don't give a fu$#" attitude about everything around Norman, and it's just a shame that the only way you can quantify it is in the heaps of lost sales tax revenue to Moore. Which is interesting itself because Moore is so incompetent it's not funny, if you look at their parks proposal (which passed) you can tell they can't envision a quality built environment to save their life. Moore should not be this stiff competition for a city with as much beauty and potential as Norman, but somehow it is.

bluedogok
11-12-2012, 08:28 PM
Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.
$4,000 seems cheap, some of the lots that we looked at here in the Denver area had a $40,000 water/sewage tap fee. Needless to say, we liked the area but didn't buy there.

ou48A
11-13-2012, 06:11 PM
When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.

ou48A
11-13-2012, 06:17 PM
I believe the city is in need of change in the mayor's office. Cindy Rosenthal is the longest serving member on council (as the mayor and previously as Ward 4 councilmember). The job requires a ton of time and just drains people. Norman needs new blood with new ideas as it is losing the retail war (and the associated sales tax dollars) to Moore. As for jobs, the city is actively chasing that advanced aircraft parts manufacturing facility but, from what I have heard, the manufacturing jobs are nothing great to write home about. Furthermore, the city has gone from #6 best city to live in to somewhere in the 90's (and Moore is now higher) during the Mayor's tenure.

The job performance of the Norman mayor has shown that she cannot deliver quality leadership for the vast majority of residents. She waste too muchof her time trying to make Norman an inclusive community and on social justice issues than with the bottom line issues of making the community more business friendly and more prosperous for the vast majority of the population.

Spartan
11-13-2012, 06:24 PM
The job performance of the Norman mayor has shown that she cannot deliver quality leadership for the vast majority of residents. She waste too muchof her time trying to make Norman an inclusive community and on social justice issues than with the bottom line issues of making the community more business friendly and more prosperous for the vast majority of the population.

What do you have against a public discussion about high school bullying/gay bashing = teen suicide ??

ou48A
11-13-2012, 06:54 PM
What do you have against a public discussion about high school bullying/gay bashing = teen suicide ??


There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.

It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population.
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

Soonerus
11-13-2012, 09:04 PM
Frankly, as a suburb Norman is doing fine, thank you very much !!!

blangtang
11-13-2012, 09:40 PM
When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.

One way Norman went downhill is starting a few years ago when the City had a pot of money solely dedicated to building "speed humps". The first I remember are around the campus area. Soon other neighborhoods began competing to be the next in line to have "speed humps" littered all along the neighborhood roadways. It got so bad that the drivers of firetrucks and ambulances began complaining that it was a nuisance and impediment to fulfilling their job duties. Thats just one example from recent memory.

Another example would be the confusing issue of how the ambulances were unable to bring west Norman resident to the hospital over on the central/east part of town, so it was deemed necessary to build that underpass thing to facilitate this problem. But as time went on, funds were secured, housed and businesses were demo'd to complete the project. But by the time the underpass was recently finished, the Norman Hospital decided to go plan and build that big new Hospital on the Northwest side of town.

But besides the rest of it, hasn't Norman always been run by bankers, land developers and builiders? I thought so, and the brief moment in time of OU professor David Ray being on council, then Cindy taking over for him in ward 4 , and eventually becoming Mayor as a blip instead of some sort of inclusive liberal hippie college town on a hill vision of the OP. I would venture a guess that Norman will NOT be electing any OU professors any time soon, and I didn't have a problem with Cindy and her ilk.

bluedogok
11-13-2012, 10:53 PM
When business leaders see a community won抰 even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self抯 they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.
It doesn't always work that way, leadership in Austin for awhile during the first wave of the tech boom decided if they didn't expand or build new roads people would quit moving there because it was so congested....that didn't seem to work too well. A few elections later more business friendly people were elected but not much was done for roads.

Spartan
11-13-2012, 11:13 PM
There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.

It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population.
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

I absolutely agree. Then that's the issue. I don't know what taking up social issues has to do with this, because I assure you that doesn't take longer than the 3 meetings needed to pass some meaningless resolution anyway. And now, I guess a bit more time because one of the Tea Party wackadoos wants to be ON RECORD supporting high school bullying/gay bashing.

Norman's elected leadership is pretty worthless on economic development.

venture
11-13-2012, 11:19 PM
I absolutely agree. Then that's the issue. I don't know what taking up social issues has to do with this, because I assure you that doesn't take longer than the 3 meetings needed to pass some meaningless resolution anyway. And now, I guess a bit more time because one of the Tea Party wackadoos wants to be ON RECORD supporting high school bullying/gay bashing.

Norman's elected leadership is pretty worthless on economic development.

Dave Spaulding will hopefully be gone after the council elections this year. Though I'm sure him and his wife will still be there bashing away with the rest of their backwoods friends.

Overall yes...the city has become stagnant the last few years. The explosion of Moore's retail area is a huge hurt to UNP. However, they have the benefit of all that wide open area right on the south side of OKC. That additional 15-20 minutes down 35 probably hurts us more than we realize. All in all, I still really love the city but I do wish there were more places to work down here. However, I would have zero intention of leaving my current company for one down here. I'll likely move before that would ever happen.

gamecock
11-14-2012, 05:32 AM
One way Norman went downhill is starting a few years ago when the City had a pot of money solely dedicated to building "speed humps". The first I remember are around the campus area. Soon other neighborhoods began competing to be the next in line to have "speed humps" littered all along the neighborhood roadways. It got so bad that the drivers of firetrucks and ambulances began complaining that it was a nuisance and impediment to fulfilling their job duties. Thats just one example from recent memory.

Another example would be the confusing issue of how the ambulances were unable to bring west Norman resident to the hospital over on the central/east part of town, so it was deemed necessary to build that underpass thing to facilitate this problem. But as time went on, funds were secured, housed and businesses were demo'd to complete the project. But by the time the underpass was recently finished, the Norman Hospital decided to go plan and build that big new Hospital on the Northwest side of town.

But besides the rest of it, hasn't Norman always been run by bankers, land developers and builiders? I thought so, and the brief moment in time of OU professor David Ray being on council, then Cindy taking over for him in ward 4 , and eventually becoming Mayor as a blip instead of some sort of inclusive liberal hippie college town on a hill vision of the OP. I would venture a guess that Norman will NOT be electing any OU professors any time soon, and I didn't have a problem with Cindy and her ilk.

I'm not sure I agree with these examples. We have a problem with speeding in our neighborhood, and our neighbors signed a petition asking for speed humps to be put in. It hasn't completely solved the problem, but the situation is much better now.

Likewise, regardless of where Norman Regional decided to locate their new hospital, we desperately needed that underpass. It was ridiculous that a town the size of Norman did not have a major route that was not blocked by the trains that come through.

UNP has not developed as quickly as I had hoped, but I think a lot of that is attributable to the economy. Moreover, people continue to be confused about how it was supposed to unfold. Just ONE part of the development, the lifestyle center, was ever supposed to be upscale. Still, I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

kevinpate
11-14-2012, 06:02 AM
... I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

I can readily agree with the latter part of this. As to the food options, how many are needed? There's at least eight already, excluding any options at the conference hotel (Logan's, Chedders, Zio's, Five Guys, PEI WEI, Panda Express, Qdoba, Chipotle. There's also a Starbucks and an ice cream place. Just south of Logan's across Robinson are Carl's, Sonic and T-bell and a Marco's. The Homeland Deli has both hot and cold prepped food as well. Don;t recall what Target does or doesn't offer. No small number of choices in that 3/4 mile stretch.

gamecock
11-14-2012, 09:35 AM
I can readily agree with the latter part of this. As to the food options, how many are needed? There's at least eight already, excluding any options at the conference hotel (Logan's, Chedders, Zio's, Five Guys, PEI WEI, Panda Express, Qdoba, Chipotle. There's also a Starbucks and an ice cream place. Just south of Logan's across Robinson are Carl's, Sonic and T-bell and a Marco's. The Homeland Deli has both hot and cold prepped food as well. Don;t recall what Target does or doesn't offer. No small number of choices in that 3/4 mile stretch.

I meant real restaurants, not fast food or fast-casual. Zio's was a good addition, but that mattress store by Logan's should probably be something like TGI Friday's. I was disappointed that Chuy's decided to locate right next to Ted's along the Interstate rather than in the UNP area.

Spartan
11-14-2012, 10:30 AM
I'm not sure I agree with these examples. We have a problem with speeding in our neighborhood, and our neighbors signed a petition asking for speed humps to be put in. It hasn't completely solved the problem, but the situation is much better now.

Likewise, regardless of where Norman Regional decided to locate their new hospital, we desperately needed that underpass. It was ridiculous that a town the size of Norman did not have a major route that was not blocked by the trains that come through.

UNP has not developed as quickly as I had hoped, but I think a lot of that is attributable to the economy. Moreover, people continue to be confused about how it was supposed to unfold. Just ONE part of the development, the lifestyle center, was ever supposed to be upscale. Still, I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

I completely agree with you that the traffic calming mechanisms are a good thing to have - that's a streetscape amenity for neighborhoods, and also a quality of life amenity. I also agree the underpass was necessary, and perhaps that was one thing that gave Moore such an advantage (19th Street's BNSF underpass). Having to stop for so long so often for so many trains just couldn't go on.

As for UNP, I disagree there. You're right, it was supposed to be part strip mall and part lifestyle center. The project however was sold to voters (to get the TIF) on the lifestyle center which is now years behind schedule and probably never going to happen. That lifestyle center was why I, as a Norman voter at that time, voted YES on the TIF. I wish I hadn't, even if that nixed the hotel. UNP is an absolutely failure of oversight because the city did not leverage strip mall expansion approval to force the developers to either get serious about the lifestyle center, or knock the whole project off. The developer pulled the ole switcharoo on the city, which got stuck holding the tab for a lovely "park" for the strip mall.

ereid
11-14-2012, 10:50 AM
Just a side note: Chuy's could not build in UNP because of the architectural requirements...

ou48A
11-14-2012, 11:24 AM
I don’t like the speed bumps and I especially don’t like the traffic circles. The city installed too many of these.

2 or 3 years ago somebody on the city council said that a study indicated that traffic calming devices cost more lives than they save. They delay the response times to emergencies, cause vehicle damage and in some cases damage city property. I would have rather hired more police for better enforcement.

On a personal note: About 3 years ago before he died I was driving my then 90 year old father someplace and drove over a traffic calming devise at what I thought was a very reasonable speed for him of about 20 mph. My dad was a tough old man (WWII combat decorated) but he complained about the jarring impact this had on his arthritic body. I can only imagine the physical pain these traffic devices have needlessly caused to our elderly population.

When things like this are done by supposedly smart well educated people it’s clear to see that some decisions that have been made by Norman leadership have not been well thought out. It also shows us on matters such as this how great common sense still trumps any amount of education or credentials

ou48A
11-14-2012, 11:29 AM
I am OK with the underpass, but a far better visionary solution would have been to bury the train tracks.

This would have improved the quality of life for far more people in Norman with lower traffic congestion but also lower sound levels. It would have helped property values and improved the desirability of living and working in central Norman.

We need to be thinking in bolder ways with our area streets and highways.

But it’s not too late to bury the train ……We could still lower the tracks south of Robinson to south of Lindsey and improve our quality of life.

Dubya61
11-14-2012, 11:49 AM
Frankly, as a suburb Norman is doing fine, thank you very much !!!

Yeah, but is that all Norman is? A suburb? I think Norman should aspire to be the center of the Metro! I think all of the metro entities should aspire to be the center of the Metro. It might be a little misplaced in some instances (say, Vally Park, or whatever the den of strip clubs and CRM calls itself), but it's still a good aspiration and Norman probably has a better claim to that aspiration than any. Norman has so much potential and although it's probably not going downhill, it certainly is failing to thrive as it could. Spartan has a very valid question.

Spartan
11-14-2012, 12:41 PM
I don’t like the speed bumps and I especially don’t like the traffic circles. The city installed too many of these.

2 or 3 years ago somebody on the city council said that a study indicated that traffic calming devices cost more lives than they save. They delay the response times to emergencies, cause vehicle damage and in some cases damage city property. I would have rather hired more police for better enforcement.

On a personal note: About 3 years ago before he died I was driving my then 90 year old father someplace and drove over a traffic calming devise at what I thought was a very reasonable speed for him of about 20 mph. My dad was a tough old man (WWII combat decorated) but he complained about the jarring impact this had on his arthritic body. I can only imagine the physical pain these traffic devices have needlessly caused to our elderly population.

When things like this are done by supposedly smart well educated people it’s clear to see that some decisions that have been made by Norman leadership have not been well thought out. It also shows us on matters such as this how great common sense still trumps any amount of education or credentials

Arthritic old bodies should not be driving vehicles. Sorry.

People used to drive 40 mph through the streets in Chautauqua. I remember a child being killed by a collision once a few years ago. The traffic calming mechanisms are a good idea. They also have the intrinsic benefit of saying, "This is a nice neighborhood, we have nice things here, please slow down." The traffic circles are even better at that. I always thought that the circle on East Main would be a great place for urban development (especially if/when/ever the Porter Avenue streetscape becomes a vibrant eastside activity spine) - I wish the City of Norman would actively pursue redevelopment along there.

I know of the one on East Main... a few located inside neighborhoods/developments, remind me did the City implement more of the circles or was that just talk?

kevinpate
11-14-2012, 01:00 PM
East Main ... not recalling any others on the primary N/S or E/W roads. Some in newer neighborhoods, mainly west-side are the only other ones which spring to mind. Speed bumps in several neighborhoods, but all requested by residents I think. They could use repainting but they are fine otherwise.

ou48A
11-14-2012, 01:01 PM
Arthritic old bodies should not be driving vehicles. Sorry.

People used to drive 40 mph through the streets in Chautauqua. I remember a child being killed by a collision once a few years ago. The traffic calming mechanisms are a good idea. They also have the intrinsic benefit of saying, "This is a nice neighborhood, we have nice things here, please slow down." The traffic circles are even better at that. I always thought that the circle on East Main would be a great place for urban development (especially if/when/ever the Porter Avenue streetscape becomes a vibrant eastside activity spine) - I wish the City of Norman would actively pursue redevelopment along there.

I know of the one on East Main... a few located inside neighborhoods/developments, remind me did the City implement more of the circles or was that just talk?

Apparently you didn’t read my post very well because I said “I was driving”!

And according to a study cited by a Norman city council member the traffic calming devices kill more people than they save. Are we just supposed to ignore the city councils over reaction to one heart breaking event?

ou48A
11-14-2012, 01:04 PM
East Main ... not recalling any others on the primary N/S or E/W roads. Some in newer neighborhoods, mainly west-side are the only other ones which spring to mind. Speed bumps in several neighborhoods, but all requested by residents I think. They could use repainting but they are fine otherwise.

I can assure you the vast majority of people in my area of north west Norman do not want or like the traffic circles or traffic calming bumps in our area.

blangtang
11-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Overall I don't think Norman is going downhill, but I do think without OU, Norman would be just another hellish suburb. OU keeps pushing things forward in the campus area, and I sometimes wonder if the high water mark will have been reached if and when Boren retires. But thats another thing...

Maybe some momentum has been lost recently with the widespread disappointment of UNP, that was a big thing at the time and the vision and expectations were high. Oh and that Rock Creek bridge over I-35 seems really pointless to me, but I don't live in that part of Norman, maybe ou48a likes to comment on that.

Another thing that comes to mind was the "no" vote on the new downtown library project. For whatever reason, the people just didn't buy into it, and that project would have had the ability to transform and maybe extend redevelopment in the downtown/Main Street/Porter. Now it appears a new downtown library has been shelved for the time being...

jedicurt
11-14-2012, 02:25 PM
The traffic circles don't bother me at all, when they are installed correctly. The one near my house they just slapped in the middle of the intersection then didn't understand why the low laying areas for water flow where getting all torn up with the traffic having to drive in them now.... finally after about a dozen horribly done patch jobs, they came and ripped out the problem areas and repoured the strip of concrete and that seems to have finally corrected the problem.

As for the speed bumps. well, they scrap the bottom of my girl friends Firebird (which while low to the ground is still at it's factory height). so i can just imagine how many other people are getting their vehicles damaged by these.

ou48A
11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
Overall I don't think Norman is going downhill, but I do think without OU, Norman would be just another hellish suburb. OU keeps pushing things forward in the campus area, and I sometimes wonder if the high water mark will have been reached if and when Boren retires. But thats another thing...

Maybe some momentum has been lost recently with the widespread disappointment of UNP, that was a big thing at the time and the vision and expectations were high. Oh and that Rock Creek bridge over I-35 seems really pointless to me, but I don't live in that part of Norman, maybe ou48a likes to comment on that.Another thing that comes to mind was the "no" vote on the new downtown library project. For whatever reason, the people just didn't buy into it, and that project would have had the ability to transform and maybe extend redevelopment in the downtown/Main Street/Porter. Now it appears a new downtown library has been shelved for the time being...

There are probably more important projects in Norman that were needed first but the Rock Creek Bridge helps relieve congestion on Robinson from NW 36th to NW 24th. Years from now when Norman has grown a great deal bigger this bridge will seem a lot smarter.
I don’t remember the details but I believe the developer of the UPN was required to pay a significant part of the cost of this bridge.
I have been critical of Norman leaders but in fairness to them the decision to build the Rock Creek Bridge is the type of forward thinking we need more of on projects city wide.

We don’t need to wait until a problem is so bad that it limits our options.

ou48A
11-14-2012, 02:44 PM
The traffic circles don't bother me at all, when they are installed correctly. .

I have seen several large moving company trucks that have had difficulty negotiating around the traffic circles in my part of town…. I have also seen several people having problems in winter weather. In each case I have seen monetary damage done both to the vehicles and to the traffic circle signs.

I have seen fire trucks and ambulances slowing way down to make their way around them.
If I had voted for these traffic devices would really hate to be confronted by somebody who had additional damage caused to their home while it burned or by a family member of a heart attack victim.

Bunty
11-14-2012, 05:23 PM
The city of Norman should attract more business and industry by offering health insurance for everyone who works there. You would get your insurance premiums tacked onto your utility bill every month. Don't live in Norman but work there? No problem. You would get it taken off your paychecks. Prospective employers would surely love the idea of no longer having to worry about offering health insurance to their workers. However, I don't know of any other city doing this, or if it would even be considered feasible.

venture
11-14-2012, 07:07 PM
Norman is going to continue to struggle a little bit as it keeps spreading out. We keep seeing the suburban area of Norman, which is the more conservative areas, that are probably transplants from elsewhere in the Metro that want it to be a suburb. Then you have those in the core, the blue area of Norman, that wants to keep it the small college town feel. The trick is getting a good balance between the two.

Spartan
11-14-2012, 09:58 PM
Apparently you didn’t read my post very well because I said “I was driving”!

And according to a study cited by a Norman city council member the traffic calming devices kill more people than they save. Are we just supposed to ignore the city councils over reaction to one heart breaking event?

Which city council member?

Spartan
11-14-2012, 10:02 PM
The city of Norman should attract more business and industry by offering health insurance for everyone who works there. You would get your insurance premiums tacked onto your utility bill every month. Don't live in Norman but work there? No problem. You would get it taken off your paychecks. Prospective employers would surely love the idea of no longer having to worry about offering health insurance to their workers. However, I don't know of any other city doing this, or if it would even be considered feasible.

Uh no.

Dubya61
11-15-2012, 04:40 AM
Why not? What a radically fresh way to embrace what is Norman's different culture.

jedicurt
11-15-2012, 08:29 AM
The city of Norman should attract more business and industry by offering health insurance for everyone who works there. You would get your insurance premiums tacked onto your utility bill every month. Don't live in Norman but work there? No problem. You would get it taken off your paychecks. Prospective employers would surely love the idea of no longer having to worry about offering health insurance to their workers. However, I don't know of any other city doing this, or if it would even be considered feasible.

I must agree with Spartan....

umm, no

Bunty
11-15-2012, 11:14 PM
I must agree with Spartan....

umm, no

Why not? Because it would be impossible for the city of Norman to offer as low priced insurance premiums than private employers, therefore not really a good deal? At any rate, I don't see why employers need to be in the health insurance business any more than they need to offer car and home insurance.

mcca7596
11-16-2012, 07:26 AM
At any rate, I don't see why employers need to be in the health insurance business any more than they need to offer car and home insurance.

Interesting point. Only thing I can deduce is that ultimately one's health is most affected by their jobs in terms of hours spent doing an all too often non-enjoyable task (which equals stress).

jedicurt
11-16-2012, 08:36 AM
Why not? Because it would be impossible for the city of Norman to offer as low priced insurance premiums than private employers, therefore not really a good deal? At any rate, I don't see why employers need to be in the health insurance business any more than they need to offer car and home insurance.

Because i live in norman, and work outside. so would they allow me to opt out? no, they wouldn't. and i would want to. because i happen to work for a company that provides me with very affordable and good health insurance.

The reason they wouldn't let me opt out is that is how they get the low premiums that they would be able to offer. by requiring everyone to be involved and paying. plus (under your plan) we would be tacking it onto the utility bill. so who collects that? are we putting that burden on the utility companies? is the city of Norman going to have to create a group specifically to collect this tacked on payment? how many people, and at what salary? is it per household cost or per person? if it is per person, who goes Door to Door to verify the number of people covered in each home? What about college kids that live in the dorms? are they not covered? or do we tack theirs on to their student fees and make the University hand over that money? now what about Students that are paying the utility tax, do they have to now show a utility bill when they pay their tuition so that they don't get double taxed? (the university won't like the added step, i can assure you). And for those that live outside of norman but work here... you said that the employer would have to take it out of their paychecks, sounds like a lot of extra work for a payroll clerk to me.

And these are the issues i was immediately able to think of. i'm sure there are many many more once you actually sit down and start trying to write it up for implimentation

Sure your idea sounds great from a distance looking down on it. But it gets significantly more complicated the moment you get close to it. The added bureaucracy and "burdens" that the city would have to put onto utility companies along with the University would be difficult to get passed, approved, and implemented.

vaflyer
11-16-2012, 09:16 AM
Oh and that Rock Creek bridge over I-35 seems really pointless to me, but I don't live in that part of Norman...

I use the Rock Creek overpass daily. It does relieve traffic on the Robinson and Tecumseh overpasses, both of which are very busy especially during rush hour.

In the original UNP TIF, the city was supposed to use $15 million from the TIF to buy the conference center from the hotel. When the hotel was nearing completion, the hotel operator agreed to let the city out of its obligation to buy the conference center in exchange for using those TIF funds to build the Rock Creek overpass. Originally, the overpass was supposed to cost $14 million, with $7 million coming from the TIF, $4 million from ODOT, and $3 million from other sources. Since the city combined the construction of the part of the bridge over the interstate with the widening of I-35, the city was able to save $1 million in traffic control costs. (The city could not build the approaches at that time because they needed to acquire the right of way and had to move utilities.) The two contracts for the bridge were then let during the depths of the Great Recession so the bridge cost the city around $10 million instead of the estimated $14 million. Thus, smart planning by the city and some dumb luck enabled the city to save a significant sum of money on the overpass and ultimately provided the taxpayers with needed infrastructure at a very reasonable price.

Dubya61
11-16-2012, 09:28 AM
Interesting point. Only thing I can deduce is that ultimately one's health is most affected by their jobs in terms of hours spent doing an all too often non-enjoyable task (which equals stress).

The only reason employers offered health care insurance in the past was because it was an employment incentive. It became so common place that many began to think of it as a requirement from the employer. Now, sadly, it is.
Norman could make one HUGE group or exchange and get the business that employ in Norman to pay less to Norman than to the insurance company (and Norman would become one huge insured area). Norman could then get into bed with Norman Regional and get them to act as an HMO.

Just the facts
11-16-2012, 09:55 AM
And according to a study cited by a Norman city council member the traffic calming devices kill more people than they save. Are we just supposed to ignore the city councils over reaction to one heart breaking event?

For the record - no one is buying that non-sense.

ou48A
11-16-2012, 10:40 AM
For the record - no one is buying that non-sense.

It was said…. I don’t remember who said it..... but it was talked about.
I saw it on TV during one of the city council meetings.

ou48A
11-16-2012, 10:41 AM
It’s pretty clear that common sense is missing with people who think wide scale use of speed bumps save lives.

Ambulance_delays (http://www.bromleytransport.org.uk/Ambulance_delays.htm)


Patients Killed by Speed Humps (Article published in April 2003)


The Chairman of the London Ambulance Service, Sigurd Reinton, recently claimed that speed humps are killing hundreds of Londoners by delaying 999 crews. He said “For every life saved through traffic calming, more are lost because of ambulance delays.”

There are about 8,000 heart attack victims in London every year, and London has a particularly poor survival rate. One reason is no doubt because even a small delay increases the death rate enormously. For example 90% of victims survive if treated within 2 minutes, but it falls to 10% if treatment is delayed for 6 minutes. So for every additional minute of delay caused, up to an extra 800 victims of cardiac arrest could die. This compares with a total of 300 people who die from traffic accidents.

Mr Reinton complained that the increasing number of anti-car measures such as speed humps, road closures, road narrowing and throttle points caused significant delays in responding to emergencies. Ambulances had to go even slower if carrying a critically ill patient.

Note that Kevin Knight, who is responsible for local London Ambulance services, also spoke against speed bumps using the same arguments at the recent council Environment Portolio holders meeting. He said they were now meeting the government target of reaching 75% of life threatening calls within 8 minutes (Editor: which is not good enough to save most heart attack victims - see above), but it was getting more and more difficult to do so and even a few seconds delay could impact the chance of survival for heart attack victims. Traffic calming features caused significant delays - for example 50% of the ambulances from one station would have had to go through the proposed Leesons Hill “throttle” where there would be queuing traffic.

Research in the USA supports these claims. One report from Boulder, Colorado suggests that for every life saved by traffic calming, as many as 85 people may die because emergency vehicles are delayed. It found response times are typically extended by 14% by speed-reduction measures. Another study conducted by the fire department in Austin, Texas showed an increase in the travel time of ambulances when transporting victims of up to 100%.

Note that Kathleen Calongne who lives in Boulder, Colorado has produced a note that gives more details on the opposition to speed humps in the USA and includes detail references to the above mentioned research - please contact B.B.R.A.G. if you would like a copy, which is a summary of a 400 page report on the subject of speed humps.

P.S. The full submission by Sigurd Reinton to the Greater London Assembly Speed Hump Inquiry in early 2004 can be seen at LAS_Report

ou48A
11-16-2012, 10:54 AM
For the record - no one is buying that non-sense.


It’s only a matter of time before lawsuits are filed against city’s who have large numbers of speed bumps……
because as can be seen on this link.....
IMAGE (http://speedbumps.50megs.com/cgi-bin/i/nma_art.gif)

..... “even minor delays in emergency vehicle response time is far more detrimental to public health and safety than can be offset by any perceived reduction in spending”.



The results of 2 different US studies.

YO MUDA
11-16-2012, 05:57 PM
I like the speed humps in my area, keeps my grandkids and the neighborhood kids safe from all these wannabe nascar types.

Just the facts
11-16-2012, 08:26 PM
Sorry - I see someone is buying it.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

񊸵m speed hump row - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/2728091/15m-speed-hump-row.html)


They cite the claims once made by Sigurd Reinton [the same Sigurd Reinton cited above] of the London Ambulance Service that traffic calming costs 500 lives per year. Now, however, Reinton will say only that "lives might be lost", and that he would like more research.

ou48A
11-20-2012, 10:08 AM
I like the speed humps in my area, keeps my grandkids and the neighborhood kids safe from all these wannabe nascar types.According to 2 different sources the risk of dying from a delayed response is significantly greater than being hit and killed by a car in areas without speed bumps.

There have been several people die in fires just in Norman in the last 10 or 15 years… There are several medical emergencies virtually every day just in Norman where seconds do matter. I hope you never have family member or friend who needs the quickest possible response.

More traffic cops would likly be more effective.

Spartan
11-22-2012, 05:20 PM
According to 2 different sources the risk of dying from a delayed response is significantly greater than being hit and killed by a car in areas without speed bumps.

There have been several people die in fires just in Norman in the last 10 or 15 years… There are several medical emergencies virtually every day just in Norman where seconds do matter. I hope you never have family member or friend who needs the quickest possible response.

More traffic cops would likly be more effective.

No, you have one source that claims it saw two sources.

Norman also did add a ton of police officers, as if it needed more.

rcjunkie
11-22-2012, 08:11 PM
The suggestion that these said speed bumps reduce travel time or create a hazard is pure BS. My daughter lives in a W. Norman addition that has these speed tables and you can safely travel over them at the posted speed limit. These bumps/tables are designed to slow down speeders, not make traffic go slower then the posted speed limit.

bluedogok
11-22-2012, 08:29 PM
All the "speed tables" that I have ever encountered would beat you or the car to death if you tried to take them at the posted speed. The front end end of my car would scrape on the ones in our neighborhood in Austin if I went more than 10-15 mph.

Spartan
11-22-2012, 09:33 PM
I like using speed tables for traffic calming more than excessive stop signs or worse, stop lights that take minutes to turn green.

catch22
11-26-2012, 10:03 AM
Narrow the streets, add on street parking. People will drive slower.

kevinpate
11-26-2012, 10:05 AM
All the "speed tables" that I have ever encountered would beat you or the car to death if you tried to take them at the posted speed. The front end end of my car would scrape on the ones in our neighborhood in Austin if I went more than 10-15 mph.

urban tanks solve that issue. love mine, old though it may be.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 10:32 AM
There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.

It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population.
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more.

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot. (And by the way, growing up, Norman was just as weird if not weirder in some ways than Austin!).

Bunty
11-26-2012, 10:42 AM
This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more.

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot.
It's very easy to see why Norman is happy with the way things are, considering it has a population growth rate that surpasses 15% since 2000. Most cities would dearly wish to be in that position.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 10:52 AM
Another thought: the "progressives" in Norman (and I consider myself progressive), are often anti-development. The flip side to them is the "develop at all costs" faction. It's a weird dichotomy.

The bumper sticker "Don't Edmond My Norman" came out about 20 years too late. Decisions were made in the early '90s that have led Norman to where it finds itself today -- another suburb.

Because the city never viewed itself as a city, it never focused on job creation. As a result, Norman can only sustain itself as a university town / suburb.

The right leadership could change this, but entrenched interests create major obstacles.

Also, the young, "hip" crowd is either politically disengaged or transient. It's correct that the bankers and developers pretty much control the city's direction, with some substanceless bones like "inclusiveness" thrown toward the hippies and intellectuals.

I agree with the poster above that I dread Boren's retirement.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 10:54 AM
It's very easy to see why Norman is happy with the way things are, considering it has a population growth rate that surpasses 15% since 2000. Most cities would dearly wish to be in that position.

True, but this growth is almost entirely suburban in nature; this is not the kind of "growth" I think people are talking about here.