The correlation between fluoride in drinking water and the reduction of caries has been shown not to exist. This graphic shows the decline in caries in fluoridated vs non-fluoridated countries:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/uploads/who_data01.jpg

In fact, cavity rates have dropped worldwide, regardless of whether or not the drinking water (or, in some countries, table salt) is fluoridated. However, fluoride has been shown to have negative health effects, including staining of the teeth and enamel brittleness:

A Quantitative Look at Fluorosis, Fluoride Exposure, and Intake in Children Using a Health Risk Assessment Approach (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1253719/)

Does it make sense to continue fluoridation when there are not only no proven health benefits, but also proven health detriments?

And....discuss.

That may be the case for 12 year old children in some countries, but I thank OKC's fluoridated water & toothpaste for my lack of cavities after 63 years. Most dentists, to my knowledge, are still convinced that fluoridation of both water & toothpaste is essential to limiting the cavities of most Americans. Compare America's teeth to the British. I assume you're the sponsor of the banner ads on this thread?

I think we had a tread on this already from a while back, one thing noted from studies in it was fluoridation of the water showed little or no positive effect, fluoride in toothpaste did have positive effects (assuming my memory is correct)

So, its not hurting anything and may help so why end it? The communists don't care anymore.

Why end it? Because it may be hurting something but it is almost definitely not helping anything. And it would save the city thousands of dollars per year. Fluoride works topically; it only helps your teeth for the brief moment it is in your mouth before swallowing. After swallowing it provides no dental benefit but may provide harm as the second link shows (which is a real scientific study, not a conspiracy theory site; no mention of communists). It is far more beneficial to brush with a fluoride toothpaste.

If you will check the information, it is not "some countries," it is all western countries in the graphic above. Speaking of the British, they have had fluoridation since 1948 in varying concentrations depending on area. There is another study that compared teeth in Britain and Sri Lanka. Both countries have areas where fluoridation rates are 0.1, 0.5, and 1.0 ppm. In a blind study, both countries showed the highest rates of fluorosis in the highest fluoridation areas, but all areas had the same rates of caries. So you can thank OKC fluoridated water if you wish, but the science isn't on your side. It is far more likely that you need to thank Crest, Colgate, etc.

And no, I'm not responsible for any ads that appear on this site or indeed anywhere on the internet; in fact, I don't even see the ads because I use an ad blocker. I'm just a regular working stiff in OKC who thinks fluoridation is not just a waste of money but also may be a health risk.

I believe the studies show that for those over the age of 12, it actually doesn't have an effect one way or the other. But for those under the age of 12, it is actually still VERY helpful and prevents cavities. Given that it actually doesn't DO anything for those over 12, i feel like it should stay.

We could probably each find a study that supports our side compared to the other. Much like people can make the bible say whatever they want.

Personally, i feel like it should stay.

I believe the studies show that for those over the age of 12, it actually doesn't have an effect one way or the other. But for those under the age of 12, it is actually still VERY helpful and prevents cavities. Given that it actually doesn't DO anything for those over 12, i feel like it should stay.

We could probably each find a study that supports our side compared to the other. Much like people can make the bible say whatever they want.

Personally, i feel like it should stay.

Pediatricians advise parents not to give their kids bottled water because it doesn't contain fluoride. If you don't want to drink fluoridated water, stick to bottled water.

Falconjet9000


That’s an inside joke to some.

Pediatricians advise parents not to give their kids bottled water because it doesn't contain fluoride. If you don't want to drink fluoridated water, stick to bottled water.

Hmm...that's a little strange, considering that the a significant portion of the mass-marketed, retail bottled water just comes from regular municipal water supplies, most of which as I understand it are still fluoridated. Ozarka says its from a private spring, so I guess that would be one significant exception...?

If we can't prove it helps, but we can show it hurts, removing it is worth consideration. How some group "feels" either way needs to be backed with some objective, empirical data, and that WHO chart above is at least a start.

I know we have discussed this here before, but I will again link you to a common side effect of fluoridation of public water supply:

Dental Fluorosis - Safety - Community Water Fluoridation - Oral Health (http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/safety/dental_fluorosis.htm)

While I understand that it is not a 'serious' problem, it has been annoying to have brown spots on my teeth. And I do have to wonder whether there are more severe problems resulting from my apparent fluoride overdose...

Hmm...that's a little strange, considering that the a significant portion of the mass-marketed, retail bottled water just comes from regular municipal water supplies, most of which as I understand it are still fluoridated. Ozarka says its from a private spring, so I guess that would be one significant exception...?

If we can't prove it helps, but we can show it hurts, removing it is worth consideration. How some group "feels" either way needs to be backed with some objective, empirical data, and that WHO chart above is at least a start.

While it generally is municipal water it is probably filtered, while not all methods will remove it, some of the comercial methods would

To revive this thread, it's interesting that Portland in May voted to reject to start adding fluoride to its water by a whopping 60 to 40%. Portland fluoride: For the fourth time since 1956, Portland voters reject fluoridation | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/05/portland_fluoride_for_the_four.html)

Background story: You Can’t Handle the Tooth: Why the political right and left both fight fluoride. (http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-20611-you_can%E2%80%99t_ha.html)

All I needed to hear was that the anti-immunization nuts are also anti-fluoride. I remember my mother (extremely conservative) telling my father(not) that fluoride was a communist plot to weaken the brains of Americans. My incredibly mild-mannered father, who had just written a very patient editorial on the virtues of fluoride, looked in danger of losing the top of his head.

I don't like the taste of tap water in OKC. Never have. I started drinking bottled water around 06, and have been drinking it ever since. I know it's bad for the environment and tap water is supposedly as good or better than bottled water.

However, not liking the taste of tap water means I'll drink less of it, and drinking less water is less healthy.

I don't like the taste of tap water in OKC. Never have. I started drinking bottled water around 06, and have been drinking it ever since. I know it's bad for the environment and tap water is supposedly as good or better than bottled water.

However, not liking the taste of tap water means I'll drink less of it, and drinking less water is less healthy.

Have you tried filtered water?

I used Brita for years, but it wasn't much better. I've considered getting a filtration system put in, but for now bottled water is convenient and not very expensive when you buy in bulk. I know that isn't a good excuse for wastefulness.

Do you know where water in bottled water comes from? Usually it is right out of the municipal water tap. Now having said that, we buy a lot of bottled water as well because it comes in a handy transportable size with a container I can toss away when I am done with the contents.

I remember my mother (extremely conservative) telling my father(not) that fluoride was a communist plot to weaken the brains of Americans.

except i'm pretty sure it is a commie plot... -M
http://kubrickfilms.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sterlinghayden30.jpg

You guys should tour a first class water treatment facility sometime and check out what all goes in to making your drinking water. I work in that industry and even though it's stupid, I take offense of people who complain about tap water. Of course, I drank the tap water in Phoenix too and everyone else there complained it had sand in it lol

You guys should tour a first class water treatment facility sometime and check out what all goes in to making your drinking water. I work in that industry and even though it's stupid, I take offense of people who complain about tap water. Of course, I drank the tap water in Phoenix too and everyone else there complained it had sand in it lol

I LOVE the smell of a water treatment plant. Just something about it... Clean and fresh.

I used Brita for years, but it wasn't much better. I've considered getting a filtration system put in, but for now bottled water is convenient and not very expensive when you buy in bulk. I know that isn't a good excuse for wastefulness.

But what about filtering shower and bath water? I don't know if fluoride can be absorbed through the skin, or not.

except i'm pretty sure it is a commie plot... -M


Last Nov. Wichita rejected a proposal to start fluoridating its water. I wonder how much money Oklahoma City would save every year from not fluoridating its water? $1,000,000?

Surely, fluoridation proponents think its highly stupid and pointless to worry about what impact unused and so wasted fluoridated water has on the environment when sewer plants discharge it to streams.

I think people are more likely to get fluoride's supposed benefit from toothpaste since it's topically applied at the same daily rates. Of course, the main downfall to that reasoning is that it doesn't account for people who don't brush their teeth everyday. Still it seems pretty chancy to put fluoride in the water to try to account for people who seldom brush their teeth, while hoping that people who brush their teeth 3 or more times a day with fluoridated toothpaste aren't getting too much fluoride.

About two years or so ago, two federal government agencies recommended that cities fluoridating their water reduce concentration of it from 1 to .7 ppm. I wonder if Oklahoma City has complied with that? Just doing that would at least save some money.

But what about filtering shower and bath water? I don't know if fluoride can be absorbed through the skin, or not.

The idea of this doesn't bother me any more than the idea of swimming in a chemically treated pool. Again, it's not flouridation that keeps me from consuming tap water, it's taste.

The idea of this doesn't bother me any more than the idea of swimming in a chemically treated pool. Again, it's not flouridation that keeps me from consuming tap water, it's taste.

Yet, the taste of chlorine in the water bothers you? Is the taste of OKC's municipal water so bad, you could easily distinguish it from bottled water in a blindfold test? What is decent tasting water supposed to taste like anyway?

All I needed to hear was that the anti-immunization nuts are also anti-fluoride. I remember my mother (extremely conservative) telling my father(not) that fluoride was a communist plot to weaken the brains of Americans. My incredibly mild-mannered father, who had just written a very patient editorial on the virtues of fluoride, looked in danger of losing the top of his head.

My dad was a leader in the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, and I'm pretty sure that he and your mom went to the same meetings.

Damn commies, gettin' in mah teef.

What about the arguments that fluoride lowers your IQ?

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Harvard Study Confirms Fluoride Reduces Children's IQ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/24/idUS127920+24-Jul-2012+PRN20120724

What about the arguments that fluoride lowers your IQ?

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Harvard Study Confirms Fluoride Reduces Children's IQ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html)

Harvard Study Finds Fluoride Lowers IQ - Published in Federal Gov't Journal | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/24/idUS127920+24-Jul-2012+PRN20120724)

This sentence tells it all: "The children in high fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ than those who lived in low fluoride areas." Fluoride proponents will simply say the study is much ado about nothing, because the study was based on high fluoride levels seldom found in this country. So nothing to worry about.

Lots of really smart toothless kids in Shawnee.

Shawnee Can?t Afford to Fluoridate, and Kids Are Getting Cavities | StateImpact Oklahoma (http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2013/07/02/shawnee-cant-afford-to-fluoridate-and-kids-are-getting-cavities/)

If OKC water tastes "bad" then I can direct you to a bunch of places to never drink the water at, like Altus or Midland, Texas.

Lots of really smart toothless kids in Shawnee.

Shawnee Can?t Afford to Fluoridate, and Kids Are Getting Cavities | StateImpact Oklahoma (http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2013/07/02/shawnee-cant-afford-to-fluoridate-and-kids-are-getting-cavities/)
Maybe too many kids in Shawnee aren't brushing their teeth at least once or twice a day.

Wichita has never fluoridated its water. So can it be determined if residents there have cavities at a higher rate than found in Oklahoma City?

^^That's what I wonder. Are there modern numbers that support continued fluoridation of our water?

Most American children don't get enough calcium. Should we add calcium to our water?

For the fourth time since 1956, Portland voters reject fluoridation

So we all lobby our council persons to put Floridation on the ballot and see what happens... I like the idea of it being up to the people consuming the water...

^^That's what I wonder. Are there modern numbers that support continued fluoridation of our water?

Most American children don't get enough calcium. Should we add calcium to our water?

People should be personally responsible enough to take calcium supplements, if needed, just like people can get fluoride's supposed dental benefits through fluoridated toothpaste, rather through the municipal drinking water. Of course, expecting everyone to be personally responsibility for their own well being may be dreaming.

People should be personally responsible enough to take calcium supplements, if needed, just like people can get fluoride's supposed dental benefits through fluoridated toothpaste, rather through the municipal drinking water. Of course, expecting everyone to be personally responsibility for their own well being may be dreaming.

And allowing children to have bad teeth because of the poor decisions of their idiot parents isn't one of those areas I think trumpeting personal responsibility really works.

Right. And that was my point. Many parents also don't provide their children with optimum nutrition, either--so, should be start putting essential nutrients such as calcium in our water? Why stop with flouride?

Right. And that was my point. Many parents also don't provide their children with optimum nutrition, either--so, should be start putting essential nutrients such as calcium in our water? Why stop with flouride?

Granted it was a figurative question. We already have a relatively high natural level of calcium in our water.

Right. And that was my point. Many parents also don't provide their children with optimum nutrition, either--so, should be start putting essential nutrients such as calcium in our water? Why stop with flouride?

I'm guessing the difference is cost. The cost of flouride is negligible whereas to supply 100% of a child's recommended riboflavin through the water supply is going to take a hell of a lot of riboflavin.

except i'm pretty sure it is a commie plot... -M
http://kubrickfilms.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sterlinghayden30.jpg
Spot on. General Ripper (Sterling Hayden) definitely knew what he was talking about ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKR32ImWYzw

... at age 70, I'm pretty much sure that my precious bodily fluids are long gone ...

General Ripper gives Mandrake a fuller explanation ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2bSL5VQgM

...it is already too late for me to benefit from this information, but for the rest of you with your lives mostly ahead of you, save yourselves ... yes, save yourself, Oklahoma City ... before it is too late.

This much, I beg of you. The redcoats are coming.

^^That's what I wonder. Are there modern numbers that support continued fluoridation of our water?

Most American children don't get enough calcium. Should we add calcium to our water?

Drink Perrier. Lots of calcium and it's delicious.

Tap water is 2000x cheaper than bottled water. Fluoridation brought up in comments to council on July 16th, Jim Couch and Ed Shadid weigh in on costs and fluoride in grapes, etc. Scroll to 1:23:45 to see
http://youtu.be/FTXXKEbUIR8?t=1h23m45s

I was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's disease. It's an autoimmune disorder that causes my body to attack my thyroid. It results in Hypothyroidism. The reverse of hypothyroidism is HYPERthyroidism. Up until the mid 1970's the favored treatment for hyperthyroidism was fluoride pills.

If you're experiencing weight gain, low energy, and inability to concentrate, sensitivity to cold, go get your Thyroid levels checked. My TSH level was off the chart (129 on a scale of 1-4), and my T3 and T4 were low. The doctor put me on a gluten free diet (thinking the gluten was to blame) but that had zero effect. About 4 years ago in my quest to be healthy, I started skating everyday and drinking a LOT of water as a result. Tap water.

I'm so freaking mad at the stupidity of our government. I'm not trying to stand here and blame them for some kind of Nazi plot to "Dumb down the population". But at the same time, with all the bullsh|t going on these days, it wouldn't be too far of a stretch.

My doctor (yes, a traditional MD, not some holistic type) instructed me NOT to drink tapwater. Or to brush with fluoride.

Bottom line? Culligan Home Water Delivery service. No I don't work in that industry either.

I don't have any numbers, so this is just me spit balling here, but even if someone did have the numbers showing the number of cavities per person in the US they would be worthless. There has been so much sugar added to Americans diets over the years that the cavities that would've been prevented with fluoride are probably offset by the number caused by more sugar. I drink only tap water, and drink about 200 ounces a day (I work out a lot), and I have no cavities. And I graduated at the top of my HS class and just graduated with honors from college, so it definitely hasn't made me less intelligent.

Oh, and my dentist has me use fluoride wash every night as well.

Edit: Just now saw the graph on the first post. My points still stand though.

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist, don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Just a simple observation is the only thing I can provide to this conversation, probably has no bearing on the topic. My GF is from a foreign country (a developed one). Moved here well into adulthood. She has massive fillings in every single molar. Maybe it's the lack of flouride. Maybe she didn't brush the way she says she did as a kid. I don't know. I can only report on what I see. Definitely need more observed data though.

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist, don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Just a simple observation is the only thing I can provide to this conversation, probably has no bearing on the topic. My GF is from a foreign country (a developed one). Moved here well into adulthood. She has massive fillings in every single molar. Maybe it's the lack of flouride. Maybe she didn't brush the way she says she did as a kid. I don't know. I can only report on what I see. Definitely need more observed data though.

And scientific data a heck of a lot more sensible than that silly Mercola "study." For all his "research," he could have attributed the IQ difference to average home square footage where the people lived. Just more junk science used to rationalize a pre-determined point, and thus a great example of the fallacy and abuse in implying causation from correlation.

Not taking a particular stand right now on the issue of fluoridation in the water per se, but I need something better than those "stats."

You'll take a stand and become educated if you get a Hashimoto's diagnosis and find out your hypothyroidism is caused by the fluoride they add to your water.
Mark my words (I have several neighbors and friends with the exact same thing going on.) OKC will end fluoridation within 5 years.

You'll take a stand and become educated if you get a Hashimoto's diagnosis and find out your hypothyroidism is caused by the fluoride they add to your water.
Mark my words (I have several neighbors and friends with the exact same thing going on.) OKC will end fluoridation within 5 years.

Hashimoto's thyroiditis was first identified back in Germany way back in the 1910's (1912?), which I believe predates most fluoridation efforts. Genetic predisposition is also a substantial risk factor. There are several components to it, apparently, so it could be an oversimplification to say water fluoridation is really the direct causative.

The literature dealing with the interaction between fluoride and the thyroid gland has a very long history, stretching back to a paper written in 1854 by Maumene who linked goiter in dogs with exposure to fluoride. The following URL links to a summary of that history: Thyroid History (http://www.bruha.com/pfpc/html/thyroid_history.html).

I tend to believe my Doctor.

It also dovetails nicely into the conspiracy theory dealing with "dumbing down the population"

One of the side effects of hypothyroidism is the inability to concentrate, as well as short term memory loss. I can definitely vouch for that.... I suspect that I.G. Farben knew all about this when the NAZI's used it to pacify those poor souls before sending them in for their "shower".

I tend to believe my Doctor.

So how much higher is OKC water in Fluoride compared to other cities? How much does OKC add to its supply, compared to, say Dallas or other cities?

Beats the hell out of me. It's being banned in other countries tho. Israel recently banned it.

It really doesn't matter. It's poison. They use it rodenticides. Rat killer.

There was a truck that overturned on I-40 this past year that was hauling some. They shut the highway down and brought hazmat crews to remediate the toxic substance...... On the other hand, the roadway was very clean afterward....lol

Last I heard, we ain't had enough water here in OKC t' establish proper levels of fluoride fer testin' porpoises.

The Dude talkin' was a Media-Viking . . . back in the day . . . =)
rKR32ImWYzw

yet, never won an academy award . . . =)

Beats the hell out of me. It's being banned in other countries tho. Israel recently banned it.

It really doesn't matter. It's poison. They use it rodenticides. Rat killer.

There was a truck that overturned on I-40 this past year that was hauling some. They shut the highway down and brought hazmat crews to remediate the toxic substance...... On the other hand, the roadway was very clean afterward....lol

And it also occurs naturally in many if not most water supplies, on the order of about 0.3 ppm. Since, in your view, it is an invariable, unquestioned poison, how do we get rid of it in that case? That is, the fluoride causes your Hashimoto's, and fluoride occurs naturally and would still be present in the water even if the addition were removed, wouldn't your problem persist?

Warfarin is also rat poison, and is also a perfectly legitimate medication for blood thinning sold under the retail name of Coumadin. So this notion of "its rat poison, so it must be a killer!!" just doesn't hold up.

Not trying to make light of your concerns, but I'm also trying to find something more concrete than one doctor's opinion, or one sample of a handful of people sharing a common experience. I could just as easily offer that my family has lived in OKC for decades, have drunk from the same water supply for years, and none of us have ever exhibited a thyroid problem. So does that prove the fluoridation does or doesn't cause it? No, but it shows that a handful of data points on either side really doesn't prove anything.

Hey, if there's been some good, empirical studies showing causation between the presence of fluoride and Hashimoto's, I'm all ears. Not really interested in some of the fringe Internet sites that spout various medical extremist notions without good science behind them, or one site saying "well, XYZ is (variously) "linked to, reportedly causes, may be associated with..." That's not science.

I'm perfectly open to question conventional wisdom - heck, I"ve been on the anti-statin warpath since I first read about them over twenty years ago - and realize now a great deal of those fears have been substantiated with later research. So I'm willing to listen if you've got the references. I've heard lots of questions about fluoridation over the years, but I'm having a hard time finding the hard science that backs them up.

Beats the hell out of me. It's being banned in other countries tho. Israel recently banned it.

It really doesn't matter. It's poison. They use it rodenticides. Rat killer.

There was a truck that overturned on I-40 this past year that was hauling some. They shut the highway down and brought hazmat crews to remediate the toxic substance...... On the other hand, the roadway was very clean afterward....lol

Compact fluorescent light bulbs are also hazardous - they contain mercury - but they're not outlawed. But if you want to clean up a broken CFL bulb, here's what the EPA says you should do: Cleaning Up a Broken CFL | Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs (CFLs) | US EPA (http://www2.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl)
- Remove people & pets from the room
- Open doors & windows to the outside environment, let air out for 5-10 minutes
- Turn off central heat & air conditioning systems
- Gather listed clean-up materials
- DO NOT USE a vacuum cleaner (it will disperse hazardous contaminants)
- Check with your local government about disposal requirements
- Continue leaving the room open with HVAC off "for several hours"

Lovely.