View Full Version : Spartan, tell us about Cleveland



Pete
09-18-2012, 07:54 PM
I was going to write a PM but I figured lots of people will be interested to hear about your Cleveland experience.


How do you like the city so far?

What are the biggest surprises / disappointments?

How would you compare the people there to OKC?

How long do you plan on staying?

How's the new job?

Spartan
09-18-2012, 08:59 PM
The short - long of it is that I love it here, but miss home..worse some days than others.


I was going to write a PM but I figured lots of people will be interested to hear about your Cleveland experience.


How do you like the city so far?

A lot. It's a very sophisticated built environment. I take the rapid (commuter rail) around the city several times a day and also use a BRT line to get between downtown and University Circle (2nd CBD). Incredible cultural amenities, just getting back from seeing a 3D samurai foreign film presented at the historic Capitol Theater on the westside. You'll be out in addresses nearing 20000 (as in 200th Street if it existed) in far western Cleve or Lakewood (where I live) and the homes are still Edgemere bungalows and the main streets are urban corridors raging with activity. You reach the "second downtown" when you pass E 110ish. ThE dense urban footprint is massive, a la Chicago, but it's a lot like Philly...one block good, next block not so good.


What are the biggest surprises / disappointments?

Surprises...you can get $2 -3 Guinness drafts any night of the week in the trendy inner-ring burb I live in if you know where to go. Food is also cheap, on par with OKC or cheaper. The local bites like pierogis and corned beef are delicious. Great farmers markets, and the massive public market is awesome. I discovered this place on the east side called the Cinematheque that specializes in art/foreign/indie films...Cleve Orch is tops in the nation...museums are amazing. Cultural amenities are excellent. Several music rests each wknd, lots to do outdoors when weather is nice. Oh and Chickfila here has this delicious alfredo sauce that is brilliantly conceived. Downtown actually has huge crowds of pedestrians when weather is nice...they have full time crossing police even.

Disappointments...crime really is an issue, I don't like being downtown at night unless my car is across the street. Was on the rapid one night and a whole gang got on, very nerve wracking. The police around here are intense too, I've already been pulled over for 2 over and an out of state license...they definitely shoot first ask questions later (even in Lakewood which is maybe the trendiest inner ring suburb 55,000/90% white) I also really miss my old friends and not being able to catch OSU/OU games on tv.


How would you compare the people there to OKC?

They're great. Really take care of newcomers, they have a similar kind of civic pride, they're all excited about how Cleveland is changing and may even start growing again. An old guy told me that "everyone should love each other and get along, but everyone should have they own neighborhoods." really sums it up...there are multiple neighborhoods for any Slavic descent, Italians, and gays..and also neighborhoods for Albanian immigrants, Scandinavian families, Jewish families..just the whole gamut.


How long do you plan on staying?

I dunno, ask me that this winter...


How's the new job?

It's really great, I'm wearing a ton of hats. I'm adjunct teaching a course on GIS at the downtown campus (poor them), I'm working on a research team at Case Western that is studying practically a whole neighborhood that's in foreclosure, and doing some CAD services for community development corporations. My salary comes from a really cool thinktank I'm at, which is a good place for me. All the players are very intensely networked which increases our productivity and reach while also allowing me to meet all the players.

Mel
09-18-2012, 10:18 PM
How is the chili?

venture
09-18-2012, 10:38 PM
I dunno, ask me that this winter...

You might not be that bad off considering where you are. The main snow belt is normally just east of you in Ashtabula, Lake and Geauga counties. You'll still get some if you get a perfect north wind, but it is mostly WNW/NW during the winter there and piles it up mostly east of the city.

Might be interesting though. I lived just out of reach of the snow belt off Lake Michigan and always wanted to be in a classic snow belt event.

Sounds like you really enjoy it though! I'm probably looking at heading back up that way here in a couple years depending on how things go.

dcsooner
09-19-2012, 05:15 AM
The short - long of it is that I love it here, but miss home..worse some days than others.



A lot. It's a very sophisticated built environment. I take the rapid (commuter rail) around the city several times a day and also use a BRT line to get between downtown and University Circle (2nd CBD). Incredible cultural amenities, just getting back from seeing a 3D samurai foreign film presented at the historic Capitol Theater on the westside. You'll be out in addresses nearing 20000 (as in 200th Street if it existed) in far western Cleve or Lakewood (where I live) and the homes are still Edgemere bungalows and the main streets are urban corridors raging with activity. You reach the "second downtown" when you pass E 110ish. ThE dense urban footprint is massive, a la Chicago, but it's a lot like Philly...one block good, next block not so good.



Surprises...you can get $2 -3 Guinness drafts any night of the week in the trendy inner-ring burb I live in if you know where to go. Food is also cheap, on par with OKC or cheaper. The local bites like pierogis and corned beef are delicious. Great farmers markets, and the massive public market is awesome. I discovered this place on the east side called the Cinematheque that specializes in art/foreign/indie films...Cleve Orch is tops in the nation...museums are amazing. Cultural amenities are excellent. Several music rests each wknd, lots to do outdoors when weather is nice. Oh and Chickfila here has this delicious alfredo sauce that is brilliantly conceived. Downtown actually has huge crowds of pedestrians when weather is nice...they have full time crossing police even.

Disappointments...crime really is an issue, I don't like being downtown at night unless my car is across the street. Was on the rapid one night and a whole gang got on, very nerve wracking. The police around here are intense too, I've already been pulled over for 2 over and an out of state license...they definitely shoot first ask questions later (even in Lakewood which is maybe the trendiest inner ring suburb 55,000/90% white) I also really miss my old friends and not being able to catch OSU/OU games on tv.



They're great. Really take care of newcomers, they have a similar kind of civic pride, they're all excited about how Cleveland is changing and may even start growing again. An old guy told me that "everyone should love each other and get along, but everyone should have they own neighborhoods." really sums it up...there are multiple neighborhoods for any Slavic descent, Italians, and gays..and also neighborhoods for Albanian immigrants, Scandinavian families, Jewish families..just the whole gamut.



I dunno, ask me that this winter...



It's really great, I'm wearing a ton of hats. I'm adjunct teaching a course on GIS at the downtown campus (poor them), I'm working on a research team at Case Western that is studying practically a whole neighborhood that's in foreclosure, and doing some CAD services for community development corporations. My salary comes from a really cool thinktank I'm at, which is a good place for me. All the players are very intensely networked which increases our productivity and reach while also allowing me to meet all the players.

Great synopsis. Confirms what I already know, OKC has a very long way to go to become a truly urban city. The lack of true diversity of cultures, sterile architecture, and routiness of OKC is disappointing. (I visited OKC from5-15 Sep), the city is one massive contruction zone (DT), the elevated highway sections still standing by the arena is an eyesore. Just was not overly impressed with much except the DEVON tower campus which is simply world class in the midst of old staid architecture. Seems nothing can be built or renovate in OKC in less than 2-3 years. Just my take.

Roadhawg
09-19-2012, 06:42 AM
You might not be that bad off considering where you are. The main snow belt is normally just east of you in Ashtabula, Lake and Geauga counties. You'll still get some if you get a perfect north wind, but it is mostly WNW/NW during the winter there and piles it up mostly east of the city.

Might be interesting though. I lived just out of reach of the snow belt off Lake Michigan and always wanted to be in a classic snow belt event.

Sounds like you really enjoy it though! I'm probably looking at heading back up that way here in a couple years depending on how things go.

Yeah but it's still COLD

Spartan
09-19-2012, 07:39 AM
Woke up this morning and it was 42 and I was freezing my ass off. When I got off the train downtown was packed with pedestrians still and Moko, the coffee shop I stop at near Playhouse Square, was more packed than usual. Tons of people everywhere.. And they say this is a dead city.

MikeLucky
09-19-2012, 08:21 AM
Great synopsis. Confirms what I already know, OKC has a very long way to go to become a truly urban city. The lack of true diversity of cultures, sterile architecture, and routiness of OKC is disappointing. (I visited OKC from5-15 Sep), the city is one massive contruction zone (DT), the elevated highway sections still standing by the arena is an eyesore. Just was not overly impressed with much except the DEVON tower campus which is simply world class in the midst of old staid architecture. Seems nothing can be built or renovate in OKC in less than 2-3 years. Just my take.

Wow, you really hate OKC, huh? lol

There's a lot that can be said in retort to your post, but I'm just going to leave it at that...

Bellaboo
09-19-2012, 08:35 AM
Wow, you really hate OKC, huh? lol

There's a lot that can be said in retort to your post, but I'm just going to leave it at that...

We live in the 'armpit' of the world, don't you know ! LOL

jrod
09-19-2012, 08:44 AM
Glad you are enjoying it, Spartan. If you haven't already, check out Deagan's Kitchen in Lakewood. Outstanding food. Decent bar vibe. Cool, nice bartenders (girl w/ short, reddish hair, specifically. Super nice.). Possibly the best chicken and waffles I have ever had. Place was one of my wife and I's favorites in the CLE area.

Tremont Tap House in Tremont is also hard to beat. Best beer selection in the city (IMO), and incredible bar fare.

I DO NOT envy the Winter you are about to have. Two mild Winters are RARE up there (2010 & 2011 both were), three is unheard of.... Good luck!!!

Spartan
09-19-2012, 09:21 AM
Glad you are enjoying it, Spartan. If you haven't already, check out Deagan's Kitchen in Lakewood. Outstanding food. Decent bar vibe. Cool, nice bartenders (girl w/ short, reddish hair, specifically. Super nice.). Possibly the best chicken and waffles I have ever had. Place was one of my wife and I's favorites in the CLE area.

Tremont Tap House in Tremont is also hard to beat. Best beer selection in the city (IMO), and incredible bar fare.

I DO NOT envy the Winter you are about to have. Two mild Winters are RARE up there (2010 & 2011 both were), three is unheard of.... Good luck!!!

Ha, I live like 2 blocks from Deagan's in downtown Lakewood! Although really I live at Root Cafe just a skip down Detroit. Haven't been to the Tap House yet but the Tremont area is awesome, I'd have gotten a place there but the connections to downtown are all screwed up bc of the Lorain-Carnegie bridge reconst and no rapid sta. For beer though the Great Lakes Brewery in Ohio City is where it's at...

As for what dcsooner said, I think the expat relationship gets frustrating sometimes when you love OKC so much but spend so much of your life in a place that is admittedly...way ahead of OKC. That said, I'd echo something Steve said recently about OKC suddenly becoming a very "in" locale to hail from these days. Everyone wants to talk basketball or football ("or what the hell is the matter with Weeds?") with me when they find out I'm from Oklahoma, and my new urban design buddies are very intrigued by OKC.

OKC actually compares nicely to any city it's size (Cleve just happens to have almost 3 mil w/ Akron and its a city built for three times as many people back when it was the "Fifth City")...it's just with larger cities the comparable amenities in OKC are all u/c or still on the drawing board with funding, like the streetcar, which will totally put OKC in a league with Portland, Charlotte, Austin, etc.

Pete
09-19-2012, 09:31 AM
I've said this before and I'll say it again: It's completely unfair to judge OKC against cities that were largely developed before the advent of the the passenger car.

They have the massive advantage of a great urban fabric usually built along navigatible water; they've all laid waste to tons of great old buildings and neighborhoods, they just had way, way more to begin with and consequently have much more remaining. Also, many of these cities had huge populations back in the manufacturing days, much more people than today.

OKC can certainly learn from places like Cleveland, DC, Milwaukee, etc.... But it's not a constructive exercise to expect Oklahoma City to measure up to the historical and urban sections of these cities.

And of course, all those places have some pretty big problems which is why they are not growing as fast as OKC, if they are growing at all.

Spartan
09-19-2012, 09:48 AM
If you rank the top 51 metros on things like livability, transit, demographic indexes, new business and tech startups, etc... Most of these older cities are thrilled to be middle of the pack (like Cleveland) and alllll say "at least we're not Detroit!"

Spartan
09-19-2012, 09:54 AM
How is the chili?

Lol that's Cincy...NOOOO chili up here. Pierogis and corned beef is the local fare in Cleveland (much more Slavic-inspired palette)

adaniel
09-19-2012, 10:42 AM
I've said this before and I'll say it again: It's completely unfair to judge OKC against cities that were largely developed before the advent of the the passenger car.

They have the massive advantage of a great urban fabric usually built along navigatible water; they've all laid waste to tons of great old buildings and neighborhoods, they just had way, way more to begin with and consequently have much more remaining. Also, many of these cities had huge populations back in the manufacturing days, much more people than today.

OKC can certainly learn from places like Cleveland, DC, Milwaukee, etc.... But it's not a constructive exercise to expect Oklahoma City to measure up to the historical and urban sections of these cities.

And of course, all those places have some pretty big problems which is why they are not growing as fast as OKC, if they are growing at all.

Cleveland had around 500K people before Oklahoma was even a state. Its ridiculous to try and compare OKC to an old city like Cleveland, Chicago, DC, etc. then bemoan why we don't have the old infrastructure like they do.

OKC is very much a western city. That's not to say that we can't actively build up our urban core, but those cities didn't get like that overnight and neither will we. Despite the disaster that was urban renewal, one of OKC's biggest assets is its a bit of a blank slate. We don't have to work around existing infrastructure or socioeconomic tension to the extent a lot of cities in the NE and Midwest have to.

In any event, I'm not sure I would live in Cleveland, a bit too cold and economically stagnant for my taste. Its good to see the city is coming back though. Rust belt chic is in right now. Plus Cleveland is the hometown of Kid Cudi! How bad can it be?

adaniel
09-19-2012, 10:49 AM
Wow, you really hate OKC, huh? lol

There's a lot that can be said in retort to your post, but I'm just going to leave it at that...

Yeah don't bother. Some people just have personal hangups that will never go away.

Pete
09-19-2012, 10:50 AM
I was pleasantly surprised by Cleveland but Pittsburgh is the rust belt city that interests me most.

Pitt is one of the very few larger American cities I have yet to visit and I hope to remedy that soon.


But as much as these cities get good PR for urban comebacks, the bigger picture reveals they are still mostly shrinking and their central cores are still much smaller in population than surrounding suburbs.

Cool renovations and urban pioneers make for great press but don't begin to tell the whole story of the larger community.

Mel
09-19-2012, 10:57 AM
Thats true. Got my Ohio cities mixed.:o

So, are you hot in cleveland?

NoOkie
09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
My Dad's from Cleveland originally, and while I haven't been back in 15 years, I remember it being a neat city. I also have distinct memories of it getting nicer as the years went on.

As a kid, I was always fascinated by all the different moving bridges they have on the river. My grandfather would take me around and show me the different kinds they had.

CaptDave
09-19-2012, 01:07 PM
I think OKC is poised to become one of America's truly great cities - in time. We have the advantage of being able to learn from other cities' mistakes and have a nearly blank slate as was mentioned earlier. I think we need to focus on smart growth and not get impatient. We don't need to try to be anything other than a more modern OKC - celebrating the roots and history of the city while incorporating great aspects of other places with an OKC twist.

Glad you are enjoying Cleveland, Spartan.

Pete
09-19-2012, 01:12 PM
We are darn close to bridging the CBD, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Auto Alley and Midtown while all these districts seem to be picking up steam.

The streetcar will go a long way here but even without that, we are on the verge of critical mass in this consolidated area with more and more cool places to live, eat, drink, hang out, shop, work, stay, be entertained and play all within walking distance.

As long as OKC's economy continues to stay pretty good it seems we are close to making this big stride and from there, I really think things will start to roll in terms of urban living and development.

Pete
09-19-2012, 03:02 PM
Sid, there are very detailed codes for the Urban Design District with lots of references to setbacks:

http://www.okc.gov/planning/urban_des/documents/UDCHANDOUTJune2011.pdf

CaptDave
09-19-2012, 03:19 PM
I prefer there to be no garage or driveways permitted in the Core to Shore and other urban districts as they are developed. Common alleys should be required for many practical and aesthetic reasons. We need to adopt similar requirements for commercial and retail developments in the downtown area as Sid stated.

I posted a link to a photograph of a development in Carmel Indiana in the Kevin Durant restaurant thread. That is the type of development we should demand and require if for no other reason to gain the maximum tax base from city owned land that is essentially given to developers. That type of building is what should be sitting across Reno from the ballpark.

bluedogok
09-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Carmel is where the main office of the Austin firm that i worked at was located, in some ways it reminded me of The Woodlands in the Houston area.

I spent a couple of weeks working in Cleveland in 2004 doing cell site surveys. I definitely spent too much time in some of the "bad areas" of Cleveland (like the Dead Man's Curve area) but did get to some areas out east where there were some real nice rural areas. Overall I was pleasantly surprised with the city, one of these years I would like to go to a Browns game up there and explore a little more when I have my own time.