View Full Version : OKC has already exceeded homicide total from 2011



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soonerguru
11-26-2012, 02:24 PM
I know that it's more complicated than this, but Ivory soap in the mouth and a swat across the bottom during childhood reduces criminal behavior during adulthood.

Really? So torture and physical assault of children leads to less violence? I'd like to see something backing this up.

OKCisOK4me
11-26-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of kids that got soap in mouth and swat on butt that turned into bad apples. It's about the environment in which you live and the people that surround you. I wouldn't go so far as to call it torture and physical battery like guru there. I got both those treatments when I was a kid and I've turned out fine.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 02:41 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of kids that got soap in mouth and swat on butt that turned into bad apples. It's about the environment in which you live and the people that surround you. I wouldn't go so far as to call it torture and physical battery like guru there. I got both those treatments when I was a kid and I've turned out fine.

Yes, but we don't hit our children today. We've evolved. This doesn't make them murderers.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 02:47 PM
Yes, but we don't hit our children today. We've evolved. This doesn't make them murderers.

Ha. What naive world do you live in? I know plenty of parents that still spank once in a while. It might not be belts and wooden spoons, but swatting still happens.

Regardless, that's not really the point of the thread.

TaoMaas
11-26-2012, 03:29 PM
I know that it's more complicated than this, but Ivory soap in the mouth and a swat across the bottom during childhood reduces criminal behavior during adulthood.

Didn't pretty much EVERY parent spank their kids in the past? And didn't teachers spank students, too? And yet...our prisons have never been empty.

1972ford
11-26-2012, 10:34 PM
As neighborhoods go from primarily owner occupied to primarily renter occupied homes more violent crimes occurs. As the homes in former good neighborhoods age and become property of slumlords because homeowners don't want to deal with remodeling outdated floor plans. The slumlords funnel the undesirables into these once nice neighborhoods these undesirables now have a new territory to fight for give it a few years it'll figure itself out it just sucks that as the retireies in these neighborhoods die off their descendants tend to sell off the properties. The vast amount of dilapidated.appartment complexes in the nw does not help the situTion there.

These undesirables are starting to get pushed away from downtown as well as growing in numbers they have to go somewhere just hope I'm close enough to a police station to keep them away from me

Just the facts
11-27-2012, 06:16 AM
1972ford - I call that Operation Rolling Ghetto and the only way to stop is to stop the creation of sprawling new housing. It needs to be attacked on 2 fronts. First, municipalities need to stop approving subdivisions at the suburban fringe and focus on in-fill (which has the added benefit of maximizing the use of existing infrastructure which we already paid for). Second, we need to eliminate the financial benefit of creating more sprawl by ending the home mortgage deduction for new homes and undoing the 1949 Fair Housing Act and the 1956 Interstate Highway Act.

soonerguru
11-27-2012, 07:00 AM
1972ford - I call that Operation Rolling Ghetto and the only way to stop is to stop the creation of sprawling new housing. It needs to be attacked on 2 fronts. First, municipalities need to stop approving subdivisions at the suburban fringe and focus on in-fill (which has the added benefit of maximizing the use of existing infrastructure which we already paid for). Second, we need to eliminate the financial benefit of creating more sprawl by ending the home mortgage deduction for new homes and undoing the 1949 Fair Housing Act and the 1956 Interstate Highway Act.

Since none of the above good ideas is likely to happen, how about a wild-eyed crazy progressive proposal?

Is there some way OKC or Oklahoma County can stimulate remodeling / improvement of older homes? Property tax breaks?

As someone who lives in an aging neighborhood that's not in a "hip" part of OKC, I see what 1972Ford sees happening. My nabe is very well attended for the most part, but it is butt ugly at the edges. I've been thinking for years that the city should do a MAPS for some beautification at least.

How can city policy lead to improvements of these neighborhoods? Code enforcement is one obvious solution. What about the out-of-state slumlords? How can OKC encourage more owner-occupied housing in these neighborhoods?

The homes in my neighborhood have "great bones," such as wood floors, brick, nice ranch layouts, etc., but many of them are smaller than what the typical OKC resident likes (mine is one of the larger ones). It wouldn't take much to make this neighborhood shine.

We do have a neighborhood association but the dues are laughably cheap and there isn't a budget for anything.

Just the facts
11-27-2012, 08:13 AM
soonerguru - I know what you are saying and there are lots of things the City could do but those are being made ineffective by the actions of the federal government. The good news is the federal government is broke and over the next 5 years you will see those financial benefits go away. Ultimately, the problem will fix itself.

If you get some time pick up a copy of The Geography of Nowhere. It is available at B&N and most used book stores. It does a pretty good job of explaining how we got here, and how we are going to fix it.

LakeEffect
11-27-2012, 08:15 AM
If you get some time pick up a copy of The Geography of Nowhere. It is available at B&N and most used book stores. It does a pretty good job of explaining how we got here, and how we are going to fix it.

Written in 1993... Didn't realize it was that old.

Just the facts
11-27-2012, 08:19 AM
Written in 1993... Didn't realize it was that old.

Yep. Kunstler predicted the end of suburbia a little sooner that it is happening but he didn't take one thing into account, the desire of those in charge to practice bad economics. Who would have thought banks would loan money to people who they knew couldn't afford to pay it back or that government would sprawl themselves into bankruptcy. Also, from my observation owner-occupied is no great solution either. Most people I have seen don't have the desire or financial resource to properly maintain a home. They are better off renting. What we need are responsible landlords, either by choice or by force (rule of law).

soonerguru
11-27-2012, 08:19 AM
soonerguru - I know what you are saying and there are lots of things the City could do but those are being made ineffective by the actions of the federal government. The good news is the federal government is broke and over the next 5 years you will see those financial benefits go away. Ultimately, the problem will fix itself.

If you get some time pick up a copy of The Geography of Nowhere. It is available at B&N and most used book stores. It does a pretty good job of explaining how we got here, and how we are going to fix it.

Well, one thing the Feds do for cities that is great is community development block grants. Could those be used? My thought is that these are strategically controlled by local leadership. How could cdbgs be used?

soonerguru
11-27-2012, 08:21 AM
Yep. Kunstler predicted the end of suburbia a little sooner that it is happening but he didn't take one thing into account, the desire of those in charge to practice bad economics. Who would have thought banks would loan money to people who they knew couldn't afford to pay it back.

And who would have thought said banks would package and sell / buy those loans as investment grade instruments. Mind boggling.

Midtowner
11-27-2012, 09:37 AM
To speak to the subject, I'm not sure many on here have much of a concept of the sort of culture which exists in some parts of the city. The culture of poverty is just vicious. It is anti-education, anti-rules and almost a caveman like survival mentality. Life and morality have so little value to some, or at least they do as most of us with educations and middle class upbringings understand things. To be exposed to these people, there's a certain sort of hopelessness, deadness inside that really you can't understand until you've been in a really bad part of town at around 2:30 A.M., and been approached at a gas station by someone very openly offering to sell you a chunk of crystal meth. It's pretty eye opening. So long as we don't address the cultural issues underlying these murders, we'll be treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

--as to what the disease actually is, that's way over my pay grade.

Just the facts
11-27-2012, 11:08 AM
--as to what the disease actually is, that's way over my pay grade.

Maybe this will help.

Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream: Andres Duany, Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk, Jeff Speck: 9780865477506: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865477507)

The problems you identified above did not always exist. We created them, mostly by accident. The hard question is, do we have the ability and desire to say, oops - that didn't work like we thought it would.

Might I also recommend the documentary Urbanized (available on NetFlix - DVD and instant view).

klI87hHFy1o

soonerguru
11-27-2012, 01:04 PM
To speak to the subject, I'm not sure many on here have much of a concept of the sort of culture which exists in some parts of the city. The culture of poverty is just vicious. It is anti-education, anti-rules and almost a caveman like survival mentality. Life and morality have so little value to some, or at least they do as most of us with educations and middle class upbringings understand things. To be exposed to these people, there's a certain sort of hopelessness, deadness inside that really you can't understand until you've been in a really bad part of town at around 2:30 A.M., and been approached at a gas station by someone very openly offering to sell you a chunk of crystal meth. It's pretty eye opening. So long as we don't address the cultural issues underlying these murders, we'll be treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

--as to what the disease actually is, that's way over my pay grade.

Poverty is a state of mind, in many ways. But if you've ever been broke and between jobs (as I was several years ago), it is incredibly stressful. Nothing like deciding whether to keep the lights on or not. Getting behind on bills. Late payments. If you need to buy a car your credit is wrecked so you have to pay a crapload of interest.

It's probably true that our poor are better off than the poor in the third world. But that doesn't change the immense stress and sense of hopelessness that people in this situation feel. And when it's intergenerational, it becomes institutionalized.

My parents gave me so much -- if not materially -- but what they gave me the most was a sense of confidence that I would be successful. People who have no models for success are deprived of that confidence.

Just a few thoughts. Have no idea how to solve the "disease."

Dubya61
11-27-2012, 01:28 PM
Poverty is a state of mind, in many ways. But if you've ever been broke and between jobs (as I was several years ago), it is incredibly stressful. Nothing like deciding whether to keep the lights on or not. Getting behind on bills. Late payments. If you need to buy a car your credit is wrecked so you have to pay a crapload of interest.

It's probably true that our poor are better off than the poor in the third world. But that doesn't change the immense stress and sense of hopelessness that people in this situation feel. And when it's intergenerational, it becomes institutionalized.

My parents gave me so much -- if not materially -- but what they gave me the most was a sense of confidence that I would be successful. People who have no models for success are deprived of that confidence.

Just a few thoughts. Have no idea how to solve the "disease."

Blue Oklahoma:: Oklahoma Challenging Place For Upward Economic Mobility (http://www.blueoklahoma.org/diary/2778/oklahoma-challenging-place-for-upward-economic-mobility) DocHoc (a local liberal blogger) would tell you that regarding hopes of escaping economic misery, Oklahoma is not too far from a third world country (my hyperbolic spin, not his). Not sure he knows how to solve the "disease", either.

plmccordj
11-27-2012, 06:11 PM
Ha ha. I wondered how long it would take someone to bring up sprawl. I love this board, I really do but it is almost entertaining how you can throw out any subject and within minutes someone is blaming sprawl. It is my turn... The next subject is "childhood obesity". :) Just kidding guys.

1972ford
11-28-2012, 12:11 AM
I know the city has the power to condemn and demolish a lot of properties that are home to undesirables and a place for juveniles to go and get sucked into that.sort of lifestyle HUD should not only build new homes but also rehabilitate existing homes to get the most bang for its buck. By surrounding section 8 housing should not beclumped togather in large patches but rather spread out to at least give youth the chance to make a better life for themselves. Instead of joining some street gang to avoid getting robbed beat up and harrassesed. The kids in the section 8 superblocks don't stand a chance in their current enviroment with no one to look up to and think to themselves I wanna be that guy other than addicts dealers and.gang members. Teachers in the schools that these superblocks feed are straight out scared of some of these children which is not very good when you want your.child.to learn. I know of cops that avoid some of the worse neighborhoods even though they are supposed to patrol the areas unless they are called to the area because of a 911 call

Cocaine
11-28-2012, 12:59 AM
Maybe this has been a long time coming though. People forget that having a crappy public school system does have a negative effect on society. Even if their is an attempt to invest in public education well it's gonna be to late for some of the students that already went through the crappy part( maybe even their children if they have them very young). I realize this is just one part of the problem though and people who said drug trafficking may be on to another part of the problem.

Just the facts
11-28-2012, 07:22 AM
Public schools are just like any other city infrastructure. If you keep spreading the people out you have to keep building new schools and transporting those kids to school gets more expensive. We waste a lot of money doing that over and over again.

kelroy55
11-28-2012, 07:56 AM
Public schools are just like any other city infrastructure. If you keep spreading the people out you have to keep building new schools and transporting those kids to school gets more expensive. We waste a lot of money doing that over and over again.

What's the alternative? Forcing people to live in a certain area?

Just the facts
11-28-2012, 08:39 AM
What's the alternative? Forcing people to live in a certain area?

Make people who prefer to live on the low density suburban fringe get thier kids to an existing school located in a higher density part of town. People can choose to live where they want but they shouldn't expect the rest of us to pay for it. We can't afford it any more.

If someone wants to live at N. 189th and Penn great, the nearest school is at 63rd and Penn. They need to get their kids there themselves.

RodH
11-28-2012, 10:31 AM
What is the appropriate number of homicides for OKC? The DOK articles focused on the area near the Capitol but that area only accounted for about 20% of the city's total. And two of those are attributed to the police. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of each and everyone of the homicides. We tend to focus on the different, the exotic but the truth is that many of these deaths are too ordinary. They represent the culture and values of the community and are not "gang" related. Our culture is violent and some lives are valued far less than others. For example, the open-carry law, regardless of whether you are for it or against it, implies that the bearer has the authority and ability to determine the relative values of the lives they encounter. And the option to terminate life when they deem it appropriate. We can look at demographics and economics and spatial organization all we want but ultimately it comes down to individual attitudes forged in a culture that accepts the appropriateness of the use of deadly force.

kelroy55
12-10-2012, 01:27 PM
We up to #94 Police report 94th homicide in Oklahoma City this year | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/police-report-94th-homicide-in-oklahoma-city-this-year/article/3736370)

jedicurt
12-10-2012, 02:02 PM
whats weird is that homicide rates seem to be up everywhere
i seemed to recall an article somewhere about Houston having an increase in homicides aswell, but i wasn't able to find the article with a quick google search
old articles, but still

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/16/chicago-homicide-rate-wor_n_1602692.html)

Detroit Murder Rate Jumps 5.2 Percent, 2012 Summer Ends With 20 Homicides In 10 Days (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/detroit-murder-homicide-rate-2012_n_1870708.html)

OKCTalker
12-10-2012, 02:58 PM
FWIW here's a story from the Weekend Wall Street Journal that reports how many gunshot victims are surviving due to advances in medicine, rapid transport to Level I trauma centers (like OU here in OKC), and experiences treating battlefield injuries.

In Medical Triumph, Homicides Fall Despite Soaring Gun Violence - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578131360684277812.html?m od=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_6)

MadMonk
12-10-2012, 03:34 PM
For example, the open-carry law, regardless of whether you are for it or against it, implies that the bearer has the authority and ability to determine the relative values of the lives they encounter. And the option to terminate life when they deem it appropriate.
That's a load of hogwash. Open carry (or closed carry for that matter) implies nothing of the sort. It does imply that a person has a right to defend themselves from a threat of mortal danger. Its doesn't give a person the right to play cop or to "terminate life when they deem appropriate".

You might read up on the law if you want to speak intelligently about it. Here's a good place to start.
http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_Lawbook_NOV_2012.pdf

OKCTalker
12-10-2012, 03:50 PM
You people DO know that there's a thread already discussing open carry, right?

http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/32451-so-have-any-you-spotted-anyone-carrying-openly-yet.html

progressiveboy
12-10-2012, 07:58 PM
It is truly sad to see OKC spiral downward with their rampant crime. OKC was placed on the top ten list for violent crimes along with Houston and Atlanta. "I realize crime is everywhere," but OKC seems to have lost it's moral compass. Everyday, you hear of another dead body found in OKC area. We can blame it on society, violence on TV upbring etc... but I feel it just comes down to a lack of morals, integrity and bad character. OKC is full of meth labs, high DWI rates. Everytime I visit OKC it seems to be a more calluosed (sp?) town leading to lawlessness. Hell even Dallas "did not" make the list of top ten violent cities. Does anyone perceive that OKC is becoming a less civilized town?

Drake
12-10-2012, 09:20 PM
It is truly sad to see OKC spiral downward with their rampant crime. OKC was placed on the top ten list for violent crimes along with Houston and Atlanta. "I realize crime is everywhere," but OKC seems to have lost it's moral compass. Everyday, you hear of another dead body found in OKC area. We can blame it on society, violence on TV upbring etc... but I feel it just comes down to a lack of morals, integrity and bad character. OKC is full of meth labs, high DWI rates. Everytime I visit OKC it seems to be a more calluosed (sp?) town leading to lawlessness. Hell even Dallas "did not" make the list of top ten violent cities. Does anyone perceive that OKC is becoming a less civilized town?

Your act is tiresome and played

RodH
12-10-2012, 09:21 PM
That's a load of hogwash. Open carry (or closed carry for that matter) implies nothing of the sort. It does imply that a person has a right to defend themselves from a threat of mortal danger. Its doesn't give a person the right to play cop or to "terminate life when they deem appropriate".

You might read up on the law if you want to speak intelligently about it. Here's a good place to start.
http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_Lawbook_NOV_2012.pdf

I do not wish to debate the merits of open or closed carry other than to state that both suggest the efficacy of lethal violence or the threat of is a solution to certain problems that one may encounter in life. The definition of pistol found in the law you cited indicates that. Hopefully, those who chose to "carry" will know when it is appropriate to use.

Pistol means any derringer, revolver or semiautomatic firearm which:
a. has an overall length of less that sixteen (16) inches,
b. is capable of discharging a projectile composed of any material which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury
c. is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand, and
d. uses either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion to discharge the projectile.

ljbab728
12-10-2012, 09:48 PM
does anyone perceive that okc is becoming a less civilized town?

no

catch22
12-10-2012, 10:36 PM
Does anyone perceive that OKC is becoming a less civilized town?

Quite the opposite.

soonerguru
12-11-2012, 12:21 AM
It is truly sad to see OKC spiral downward with their rampant crime. OKC was placed on the top ten list for violent crimes along with Houston and Atlanta. "I realize crime is everywhere," but OKC seems to have lost it's moral compass. Everyday, you hear of another dead body found in OKC area. We can blame it on society, violence on TV upbring etc... but I feel it just comes down to a lack of morals, integrity and bad character. OKC is full of meth labs, high DWI rates. Everytime I visit OKC it seems to be a more calluosed (sp?) town leading to lawlessness. Hell even Dallas "did not" make the list of top ten violent cities. Does anyone perceive that OKC is becoming a less civilized town?

This is completely melodramatic and unenlightening. Please try to provide some degree of insight instead of simply ranting and raving about a topic you've clearly not given any depth of thought.

progressiveboy
12-11-2012, 07:07 AM
This is completely melodramatic and unenlightening. Please try to provide some degree of insight instead of simply ranting and raving about a topic you've clearly not given any depth of thought. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Lets start with the link below. This does provide some degree of insight and it speaks for itself. I stand by my previous statement!






Police report 94th homicide in Oklahoma City this year | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/police-report-94th-homicide-in-oklahoma-city-this-year/article/3736370)

progressiveboy
12-11-2012, 07:12 AM
Your act is tiresome and played See below.



Oklahoma City ranks high in violent cities list - Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/okc/Oklahoma-City-ranks-high-in-violent-cities-list/-/11777584/17203894/-/7l11b7/-/index.html)

OKCTalker
12-11-2012, 08:43 AM
The murder rate is one metric among thousands, and you can't simply say that Oklahoma City is a good city/bad city based upon any one of them. It's not that simple.

It's my home, I like it here and I'm staying, and if you want to know why, pull up a chair because it will take awhile to explain.

soonerguru
12-11-2012, 10:44 AM
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Lets start with the link below. This does provide some degree of insight and it speaks for itself. I stand by my previous statement!





Police report 94th homicide in Oklahoma City this year | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/police-report-94th-homicide-in-oklahoma-city-this-year/article/3736370)

I've read the link. I've also engaged in discussion throughout this thread. Trying to determine spikes in homicide is sometimes a nuanced and challenging thing. It's why we've been discussing this topic for weeks / months. What factors in your opinion have led to this spike in homicide in OKC in 2012? The link you provide offers no answers.

Bellaboo
12-11-2012, 11:32 AM
One thing to consider is that our economy is better than most. We've had an influx of job seeking individuals coming from other parts of the country looking for work. Maybe some of these folks have been a little undesirable...? Just guessing.

MadMonk
12-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I do not wish to debate the merits of open or closed carry other than to state that both suggest the efficacy of lethal violence or the threat of is a solution to certain problems that one may encounter in life. The definition of pistol found in the law you cited indicates that. Hopefully, those who chose to "carry" will know when it is appropriate to use.
I don't blame you for being wary of defending your position but, you should at least be intellectually honest and be more specific than "certain problems that one may encounter in life". The law is designed and intended for people to be able to protect themselves or their immediate family from imminent lethal threats. No other use in any other situations are legally authorized. You know this and anyone who lawfully carries is well aware of this. This thread is trying to establish that lethal violence is increasing in our city, and I would wager that most of that is not from someone who is legally authorized to carry. You suggest defending yourself with a gun is not a solution, but I know of no solution that is more effective in a situation where someone points a weapon at you or your family and starts pulling the trigger.

More on topic, can anyone provide a link with details of this year's homicides? How many are gun-related and not? How many were done by legal carriers? The devil is in the details.

I'm sure not all the details are available in an ongoing investigation though.

soonerguru
12-11-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't blame you for being wary of defending your position but, you should at least be intellectually honest and be more specific than "certain problems that one may encounter in life". The law is designed and intended for people to be able to protect themselves or their immediate family from imminent lethal threats. No other use in any other situations are legally authorized. You know this and anyone who lawfully carries is well aware of this. This thread is trying to establish that lethal violence is increasing in our city, and I would wager that most of that is not from someone who is legally authorized to carry. You suggest defending yourself with a gun is not a solution, but I know of no solution that is more effective in a situation where someone points a weapon at you or your family and starts pulling the trigger.

More on topic, can anyone provide a link with details of this year's homicides? How many are gun-related and not? How many were done by legal carriers? The devil is in the details.

I'm sure not all the details are available in an ongoing investigation though.

Can we move on from this topic in this thread? Unless a correlation can be provided that legal carry has increased homicides, we should drop it. I'm not fond of the new law myself, but it obviously has had no impact on this year's spike in homicides.

LakeEffect
12-11-2012, 01:12 PM
Can we move on from this topic in this thread? Unless a correlation can be provided that legal carry has increased homicides, we should drop it. I'm not fond of the new law myself, but it obviously has had no impact on this year's spike in homicides.

No impact whatsoever.

And to someone another question that was asked - I do not believe we've had a sudden influence of "bad" people moving here and looking for work. I think many of these are gang/drug related in some way, and being at the crossroads of multiple long-distance interstate highways makes us a target for drug-related violence. An additional portion is a lot of murder/suicide and domestic situations. I'd posit that a lot of that is based on low educational attainment, poverty and other personal and societal issues. No one has been immune to the violence, from unborn children to toddlers, from road rage wackos to human trafficking gang enforcers... it's a devil of an issue.

Bellaboo
12-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Okay, maybe this is why there has been a spike -

It's a known fact that there is more violent crime in the summer months than the winter months. And it's been a long hot year.

LakeEffect
12-11-2012, 01:48 PM
Okay, maybe this is why there has been a spike -

It's a known fact that there is more violent crime in the summer months than the winter months. And it's been a long hot year.

KOCO posted a month-by-month count of homicides, and July and August were down months... so, nope, no special weather correlation. March and September were the highest... Number of homicides per month in Oklahoma City | KOCO Home - OKC (http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/okc/-/11777584/17723586/-/vfxouhz/-/index.html)