View Full Version : OKC has already exceeded homicide total from 2011



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OKCSteel
10-01-2012, 10:22 AM
If the "victim" pulled a knife, the guy that did the shooting, did so in self defense.

RadicalModerate
10-01-2012, 11:23 AM
If the "victim" pulled a knife, the guy that did the shooting, did so in self defense.

Sure hope that the survivor of this encounter doesn't hire Irven Box to prove the point in court . . .

ljbab728
10-01-2012, 10:48 PM
If this guy that did the shooting has a history of pointing weapons at people, do you think it is possible that the guy grabbed a knife after the suspect brandished a weapon? In that case, it would not have been in self-defense, right?

People are jumping to self-defense, and that may be the case, but David has a history of pointing guns. I'm waiting to see what the investigation says.


This gives a little more insight into his past and any references to infidelity are obviously incorrect.

Two men in fatal shooting incident didn't know one another, Oklahoma City police say | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/two-men-in-fatal-shooting-incident-didnt-know-one-another-oklahoma-city-police-say/article/3714940)

RadicalModerate
10-02-2012, 12:42 AM
So now The News Media is spinning [IT] as Road Rage . . .
And "local"--SuperKind--commentators/social engineers,
in here, are comparing [IT] it to Off Road/NonVehicular Kindness?

I have to say that if I was angry enough to wave a twig
at a madman on the path through the jungle
and get shot immediately rather than clubbed to death . . .
I would have preferred it that way.

I'm thinkin' the Max they can go for on the GunWavingGeezerRealEstateGuy
with a prior conviction for pointing a weapon and anger management issues is voluntary manslaughter.
"First Degree Murder"? Not even close . . . AsK Ralph Nader about Corvairs and etc. ....
(stay away from IrvenBox and StillwaterJones)

Gerry Spence, RaceHorse Haynes or Atticus Finch mebbe. . .
(john adams, perhaps? via ouija board?)

Just the facts
10-02-2012, 06:21 AM
This guy needs to be removed from society permanently. He appears to be incapable of living with other humans.

CaptDave
10-02-2012, 06:55 AM
Idiots like that give the gun control lobby a leg to stand on unfortunately.

OKCSteel
10-02-2012, 07:06 AM
If this guy that did the shooting has a history of pointing weapons at people, do you think it is possible that the guy grabbed a knife after the suspect brandished a weapon? In that case, it would not have been in self-defense, right?

People are jumping to self-defense, and that may be the case, but David has a history of pointing guns. I'm waiting to see what the investigation says.
He does have a history. Saw that yesterday evening. I am not sure how they are going to prove this one unless witnesses come forward.

HangryHippo
10-02-2012, 08:08 AM
Idiots like that give the gun control lobby a leg to stand on unfortunately.

Oh, right. God forbid we not bring up gun control. Let's leave the politics out of this one. A son/brother/cousin/friend/father was murdered over something senseless.

CaptDave
10-02-2012, 08:38 AM
Senseless is the key word. I didn't intend to make a political point - more along the lines of a deranged person's act(s) leading to this young man's death for no reason at all. How has our society arrived at this point where so many people among think they are entitled to whatever they want regardless of cost? A middle aged idiot decided he had to get his way and we end up with crime scene markers in a parking lot. I feel terrible for the victim's family - the video of his mother arriving at the scene was heart wrenching. (But I see where you would get the idea.)

HangryHippo
10-02-2012, 08:48 AM
I see what you're saying. The victim had been a friend of mine since elementary school and it's hard to deal with his death. I simply don't understand how society has gotten here.

OKCTalker
10-02-2012, 08:49 AM
Road rage. Today's DO:

Two men in fatal shooting incident didn't know one another, Oklahoma City police say | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/road-rage-may-have-led-to-target-shooting-in-oklahoma-city/article/3714940)

Two men in fatal shooting incident didn't know one another, Oklahoma City police say David Bloebaum, the man arrested on murder complaint after a shooting at a northwest Oklahoma City parking lot, was convicted of pointing a firearm at a family's car in the past, records show. Police say road rage may have sparked the Friday shooting.

Jasen Yousif, 29, was killed about 4:30 p.m. Friday in the parking lot of Target, 13924 N Pennsylvania Ave. David Bloebaum, 57, was arrested on a murder complaint shortly after the shooting.

Sources said a knife was found at the scene.

Past incidents
It's not the first time Bloebaum has been accused of pointing a weapon.

Bloebaum was convicted after a road rage incident in 2005 in which he pointed a firearm at a family's car as it traveled with two small children, according to court records and a police incident report.

He received a two-year deferred sentence on the firearm charge, according to the state Corrections Department.

Just the facts
10-02-2012, 09:52 AM
I see what you're saying. The victim had been a friend of mine since elementary school and it's hard to deal with his death. I simply don't understand how society has gotten here.

Sorry for your loss. It really saddens me that we have created this society for ourselves but let me ask, do you really NOT understand how we go here? This road rage incident appears to be a two-way street with the victim being enraged enough himself to call the number on the car and yell at the other driver - and then apparently to follow him to a Target parking lot.

G.Walker
10-03-2012, 10:17 AM
We just recorded homicide #72, this is getting out of hand. To put it in perspective, 75 homicides in 2009 were the most from 2000-2010. At this rate, we might tip 100 homicides for 2012, that's not good. But for whatever reason, homicide rates slow down in the winter months. The City definitely needs to get a grasp on this.

HangryHippo
10-03-2012, 10:25 AM
Sorry for your loss. It really saddens me that we have created this society for ourselves but let me ask, do you really NOT understand how we go here? This road rage incident appears to be a two-way street with the victim being enraged enough himself to call the number on the car and yell at the other driver - and then apparently to follow him to a Target parking lot.

I think you're confusing two different stories. The victim did not call the number and yell at the other driver. That was the shooter's previous incident on the Lake Hefner Parkway.

And frankly, no. I do not understand how we've gotten here. In this case, what in the hell happened that made someone so mad he followed a person to a parking lot and murdered him?!?

Just the facts
10-03-2012, 11:20 AM
I think you're confusing two different stories. The victim did not call the number and yell at the other driver. That was the shooter's previous incident on the Lake Hefner Parkway.

And frankly, no. I do not understand how we've gotten here. In this case, what in the hell happened that made someone so mad he followed a person to a parking lot and murdered him?!?

Ooops, you're right. That was from the previous incident. In that case a man with his family in the car made a dangerous situation worse, which is usually the case in road rage incidents. One person does something stupid and the second person reacts negatively to it. Watch any football game; the retaliator always gets the short end of the stick. Bad drivers and far too many people expressing anti-social behavior behind the wheel is one of the reasons I started riding a bike.

We have a violent society, from movies to books to music to TV to real life. This level of societal decay is new to America. It is created by many factors but not least of which is social isolation created by urban sprawl, government programs, greedy 'profit and all cost' business people, and a general decline of people who believe in God. As a people, we have been divided by 'leaders' for their own political gain. It has produced a hell of a country - broke AND violent (not a good combination).

So everyone make sure you catch the latest tv show with cheating wives, the lastest CSI episode, and stand by for the next Batman movie.

Teo9969
10-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Not a point that is probably worth arguing about but I have to disagree. We are not a violent society. I've been to a few of those. By what measurement do you mean?

We are not a violent society. We are society that loves violence.

LakeEffect
10-03-2012, 01:04 PM
We just recorded homicide #72, this is getting out of hand. To put it in perspective, 75 homicides in 2009 were the most from 2000-2010. At this rate, we might tip 100 homicides for 2012, that's not good. But for whatever reason, homicide rates slow down in the winter months. The City definitely needs to get a grasp on this.

That doesn't take into account the other suspicious death this morning that happened after a fight. It might take a while to determine if the fight caused the death... if it does, we're at 73.

Teo9969
10-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Right, but you are equivocating. Otherwise why mention it?

I wasn't affirming or denying JTF's claim, simply clarifying the point to reality. While we may not be a violent society on the whole, we do have an affinity for violence.

If I were to argue a point, it would be that the affinity for violence that we have subverts our ability to experience any sort of incumbent horror when violence takes place. The buzz word would be "desensitized". We hear about a shooting, we move about our day...For the people who actually commit the acts, there has developed this sense that violence taking place in the world is normative, such that it doesn't take a complete psychopath to commit such an egregious act. The sad thing is that we can actually figure out a reason for the death of Mr. Yousif other than the perpetrator was just utterly insane. If there had been no cars, there would have likely been no death.

Dubya61
10-03-2012, 01:33 PM
If there had been no cars, there would have likely been no death.

Although I despise how some would take a single statement and derail a discussion, here I go: Are you saying that we need car control? This is the same as gun control right? Mr. Yousif can't be held responsible for his own acts because we have a society that is desensitized to violence and we drive cars. I don't buy it. We must be just as civil to our fellow human beings in cars (and on the internet, etc.) as on the sidewalk in face-to-face interaction. The car CANNOT be the fulcrum of blame, here.

Teo9969
10-03-2012, 01:43 PM
Although I despise how some would take a single statement and derail a discussion, here I go: Are you saying that we need car control? This is the same as gun control right? Mr. Yousif can't be held responsible for his own acts because we have a society that is desensitized to violence and we drive cars. I don't buy it. We must be just as civil to our fellow human beings in cars (and on the internet, etc.) as on the sidewalk in face-to-face interaction. The car CANNOT be the fulcrum of blame, here.

Simply put, that's not at all what I said.

*a* reason...not *the* reason

Just the facts
10-03-2012, 02:10 PM
You guys can argue semantics all you want - I stand by the violent society comment. That doesn't mean every person in it is violent. I'm not violent but I still lock my doors every night. When I lived in Healdton in the early '80s our house didn't even have locks. Whoever built the house in the 50's didn't even think they were necessary. Not only do houses have locks today, we have deadbolts and security alarm system.

CaptDave
10-03-2012, 02:23 PM
We are not a violent society. We are society that loves violence.

This is truth - look at what we do for "entertainment".

80,000+ people screaming loudest when a 20 year old kid nearly gets his head taken off trying to carry a ball across a line on the ground.... gets the blood pumping when they can hear the contact in the upper deck.

It starts when the kids are much younger - people love to see their kid knock the crap out of another.

I am not a gamer, but I would bet the most popular video games are the most violent.

What leads the local news? "If it bleeds it leads"

How many people cheer when they watch that Ersland clown pump rounds into a kid (who was wrong) he had already shot in the head?

Far too many are quick to support committing troops because they honestly think war looks like it does on the game console or movie screen. Give them a taste of the smell, the chaos, and actual noise - then put their kids in that situation, and maybe we would think before we act.

As a society we have become desensitized to violence because it pervades many aspects of our lives and we often don't notice. I may be a little more sensitive (overly sensitive even?) to it than many, but I have my reasons.

Just the facts
10-03-2012, 02:29 PM
No doubt that the media plays a big part in the fear factor, not just in reporting it, but actually promoting it. You know as well as me that when a camera is around troublemakers come out of the woodwork. America has been going down the wrong path for a long time and it has a lot of momentum behind it. Turning something this big around will be hard so I just try to be the best citizen I can be and try to be a good example to others. Part of that is giving up on violent movies. I refuse to watch them. Am I wasting my time? Maybe, but I feel better.

Quick side story - A friend of mine asked me to go to the movies with him. He wanted to go see Batman. I told him I don't like movies where people are killed. I think it devalues Human life and is hurting our society. He agreed. 2 days later he saw it with someone else. Addiction? Maybe.

ShiroiHikari
10-05-2012, 10:19 PM
I really don't think violent movies or video games have anything to do with people being violent. People were violent long before movies and video games came along.

Just the facts
10-05-2012, 10:35 PM
I really don't think violent movies or video games have anything to do with people being violent. People were violent long before movies and video games came along.

Not in this country they weren't.

Edmond_Outsider
10-06-2012, 07:30 AM
Culture is always the easiest thing to blame but if it were truely able to "desensitize" people, why are our military people continuing to react to violence the same ways they have since battle trauma was called "nostalgia," shell shock, battle fatigue, etc?

Ozzy and Judas Preist caused suicides and violent behavior 30 years ago, remember? Probably not. In 1975, a silly one bit video game called Death Race 2000 was banned all over the county including in Tulsa where I played it. Comic books were the presumed culprit in the 1950s and thier content was censored as a result.

The first amendement has been continually and easily tread upon as a result of the hysteria surrounding the false relationship between culture and violence.

However, if one looks at reality as reflected in uniform crime statistics, we are not getting more violent. Violent crime has gone down over the past 50 years.

While cultural changes can not be tied to crime, economics can. The worse our ecomomic situation, the more crime, more drug addiction, more divorce, more everything undesireable.

It is far simpler and easier to quantify than the more easily whipped whippng boy of culture.

I will say that one aspect of culture does influence folks in the US and is quantifiable--our collective love of firearms and the power of those who make and sell them. Today, weapons of mass violence are cheaper and easier to obtain than ever before and that availablity continues to increase.
This, by itself, does not cause violence, it most certainly enables those with unstable mental conditions to kill more faster and easier than ever.

This was not possible 30 years ago. This is a change which does directly affect the sort of violence we have today.

It is interesting that the second ammendment will trump the first almost every time. We, as a society, love our guns far more than we love our freedom of speech and expression.

That is strange in my eyes.

Just the facts
10-06-2012, 10:28 AM
nm

ljbab728
10-06-2012, 07:41 PM
And then there is this.


Violent crimes in Oklahoma fell last year to the lowest level in a decade, according to statistics released Friday by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.



Read more: Violent crime in Oklahoma is at 10-year low, 2011 statistics show | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/violent-crime-in-oklahoma-is-at-10-year-low-2011-statistics-show/article/3716320#ixzz28ZbdBZBZ)

BG918
10-06-2012, 09:24 PM
Homicide near the Plaza District when a girl and her boyfriend tried to stop someone breaking into their car:
Woman fatally shot Friday night in northwest Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/woman-fatally-shot-friday-night-in-northwest-oklahoma-city/article/3716644)

Just the facts
10-06-2012, 09:26 PM
Let me ask a question about the crime report because I have no idea how it works. Let's say a woman reports a rape, there is a trial, and the person plea deals a charge of aggravated sexual assault (or whatever it might be). Does that go in this report as a rape or does it go down as aggravated sexual assault? What about someone charged with aggravated sexual assault that plead down to something else. Does that just fall off the radar completely? What if it is a gang rape by 20 people? Is that counted as one rape, or 20 rapes? The Ersland case was 3 murder convictions for one death. How is that reported?

kevinpate
10-06-2012, 10:39 PM
Never sat down with the report. I suspect Ms. Brown with OSBI would know.
Best guess using your examples -

Ersland case = 1 murder recorded. If report tracks charges/convictions, then 3 M convictions, plus convictions re the related charges that existed.

Gang rape = 20 rapes, though perhaps more than 20 (i.e. one or more actors commit multiple distinct acts sufficiently separated to qualify as separate acts.)

Hawk405359
10-07-2012, 08:24 AM
I think aggravated sexual assaults and rape all go under the banner of sex crimes when being reported.

As for how cases with multiple defendants work... I really don't know about that, that's a great question. I'd assume by the number of victims, but I can't say that for sure.

Bunty
10-08-2012, 11:06 AM
We just recorded homicide #72, this is getting out of hand. To put it in perspective, 75 homicides in 2009 were the most from 2000-2010. At this rate, we might tip 100 homicides for 2012, that's not good. But for whatever reason, homicide rates slow down in the winter months. The City definitely needs to get a grasp on this.

So aren't murders getting out of crime in most other big cities in the country?

disinfected
10-15-2012, 07:05 AM
#77 last night.

Roadhawg
10-15-2012, 08:20 AM
#77 last night.

I saw that... still 10 weeks to go

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 08:55 AM
The Oklahoman ran a series of articles/blog posts over the weekend as our homicide count grew larger.

Oklahoma City's 2012 homicide rate on track to be one of the highest in 20 years | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-citys-2012-homicide-rate-on-track-to-be-one-of-the-highest-in-20-years/article/3731927)

Oklahoma City homicides: By the numbers | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-homicides-by-the-numbers/article/3731925)

And now, this morning, the 87th homicide of 2012 was recorded: UPDATE: One dead and one wounded in northwest Oklahoma City shootings Monday | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/update-one-dead-and-one-wounded-in-northwest-oklahoma-city-shootings-monday/article/3732104)

Spartan
11-26-2012, 09:25 AM
I agree every loss of life is a problem. I meant, there's not a new growing "problem". Nothing is "out of control" if the percentage is the same. There is always room for improvement though.

Huh?? Our homicide rate is skyrocketing and has been all year long. Denying this is really quite head in the sand..

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 09:33 AM
Huh?? Our homicide rate is skyrocketing and has been all year long. Denying this is really quite head in the sand..

What do you attribute this to?

Our local economy is about as good as it's ever been.

Have a lot of gang members recently been paroled? Is there a "new" gang problem that is yet to be addressed? Is our failure to add more police officers catching up to us?

Perversely, could our good economy be attracting more crime to our city?

The Oklahoman series didn't provide a lot of answers.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 09:38 AM
What do you attribute this to?

Our local economy is about as good as it's ever been.

Have a lot of gang members recently been paroled? Is there a "new" gang problem that is yet to be addressed? Is our failure to add more police officers catching up to us?

Perversely, could our good economy be attracting more crime to our city?

The Oklahoman series didn't provide a lot of answers.

Well, telling the whole story would probably require The Oklahoman to write a 400 page book.

Some of the early homicides were murder-suicides, which is not a gang-related issue. I like your questions...

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 09:54 AM
Well, telling the whole story would probably require The Oklahoman to write a 400 page book.

Some of the early homicides were murder-suicides, which is not a gang-related issue. I like your questions...

Good point. I don't really have an educated opinion on this matter, but I'm curious what others think is causing this. By the way, it may have been mentioned upthread, but has our ratio of homicides related to population increased as well, or just the overall total?

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 10:04 AM
Good point. I don't really have an educated opinion on this matter, but I'm curious what others think is causing this. By the way, it may have been mentioned upthread, but has our ratio of homicides related to population increased as well, or just the overall total?

Well, we'd have to do a multi-year analysis to really get into the numbers, but for 2012, the rate in increase over 2011 is much greater than the population increase.

Human trafficking seems to be a big issue right now, and I wonder if that is driving some of the more violent gangs. OKC's location along I-40, I-44 and I-35 puts us at a crossroads for violence.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Well, we'd have to do a multi-year analysis to really get into the numbers, but for 2012, the rate in increase over 2011 is much greater than the population increase.

Human trafficking seems to be a big issue right now, and I wonder if that is driving some of the more violent gangs. OKC's location along I-40, I-44 and I-35 puts us at a crossroads for violence.

Let's also examine our continued futile war on drugs, which is enabling the dangerously violent drug cartels to expand their profits and presence into our nation. Since OKC is on the aforementioned highway corridor, one would assume we're ground zero for this expanding turf.

We really need the law enforcement community to step up and evolve its position on drugs, particularly marijuana. Drug addiction is a health issue that is being addressed (not really) through the legal system. This is not logical and it's not working. I realize the law enforcement community receives many toys and a lot of funding to continue this failed "war," but changing focus does not mean we would take away their toys.

catch22
11-26-2012, 10:17 AM
Huh?? Our homicide rate is skyrocketing and has been all year long. Denying this is really quite head in the sand..

I was having a difficult time conveying what I meant: soonerguru did a better job than I at that:


Good point. I don't really have an educated opinion on this matter, but I'm curious what others think is causing this. By the way, it may have been mentioned upthread, but has our ratio of homicides related to population increased as well, or just the overall total?

And cafeboeuf answered the question I was wondering.


Well, we'd have to do a multi-year analysis to really get into the numbers, but for 2012, the rate in increase over 2011 is much greater than the population increase.

Human trafficking seems to be a big issue right now, and I wonder if that is driving some of the more violent gangs. OKC's location along I-40, I-44 and I-35 puts us at a crossroads for violence.


----

I was saying, Spartan, (or trying to) that there isn't a huge problem if the percentage is the same. Because the pool is growing with the population, so an increase in actual number of crimes is expected to increase with the increase of population. But, as cafeboeuf points out (and which I did not know), the percentage rate is growing faster than the population growth rate, which does in fact mean a problem.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 10:31 AM
The Oklahoman posted a list of the homicide numbers by year from 1993 on. Oklahoma City homicides: By the numbers | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-homicides-by-the-numbers/article/3731925)

If you make that into a chart, you get this: 2918

I updated it to remove the bombing, since it's an outlier from a statistical standpoint, and I added the two 2012 homicides that occurred since the article ran.

If I can find some time, I'm going to add recessions and population to that chart to see if there's any correlations...

Just the facts
11-26-2012, 12:10 PM
If I can find some time, I'm going to add recessions and population to that chart to see if there's any correlations...

If you have time (and access to the data) see if the murder rate correlates to commute time or new housing starts, although I imagine long-term societal trends don't mesh nicely with the Gregorian calendar.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 12:19 PM
If you have time (and access to the data) see if the murder rate correlates to commute time or new housing starts, although I imagine long-term societal trends don't mesh nicely with the Gregorian calendar.

If you go long term, there might be something with housing starts and the calendar... commute time, I'd bet against.

Just the facts
11-26-2012, 12:36 PM
If you go long term, there might be something with housing starts and the calendar... commute time, I'd bet against.

So you don't think there is a correlation between sprawl and crime?

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 12:41 PM
The Oklahoman posted a list of the homicide numbers by year from 1993 on. Oklahoma City homicides: By the numbers | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-homicides-by-the-numbers/article/3731925)

If you make that into a chart, you get this: 2918

I updated it to remove the bombing, since it's an outlier from a statistical standpoint, and I added the two 2012 homicides that occurred since the article ran.

If I can find some time, I'm going to add recessions and population to that chart to see if there's any correlations...

Be careful with the macroeconomic data, as OKC's economy is often at odds with the national economy. Perhaps local unemployment rate would be an arbiter, although, this year, we have had the lowest unemployment in the nation for large cities, so there doesn't seem to be a correlation there.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 12:54 PM
So you don't think there is a correlation between sprawl and crime?

Not on its face. Commute time may be a reverse indicator I suppose. Typically, you'd assume the longer the commute, the more safe the homeowner's community... NewsOK highlighted the fact that multiple murders occurred in NE OKC, and you'd ASSUME (need to do more research, certainly) that those residents have a shorter commute.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Be careful with the macroeconomic data, as OKC's economy is often at odds with the national economy. Perhaps local unemployment rate would be an arbiter, although, this year, we have had the lowest unemployment in the nation for large cities, so there doesn't seem to be a correlation there.

Good point, although violent, gang-based crime may play off of the national economy by virtue of the drug trade and human trafficking going through OKC... So many variables in crime statistics...

Just the facts
11-26-2012, 01:18 PM
Not on its face. Commute time may be a reverse indicator I suppose. Typically, you'd assume the longer the commute, the more safe the homeowner's community... NewsOK highlighted the fact that multiple murders occurred in NE OKC, and you'd ASSUME (need to do more research, certainly) that those residents have a shorter commute.

Hold on, I am not saying that an individual's chance of being murder is related to that inidividual's commute time. I am saying that as the population sprawls crime increase. One indication of sprawl is average commute time. I guess another way would be to look at lane-miles of road construction. The more lane-miles of road the more crime there is but it might take 10 years or more for the correlation to be noticable. The effects of the road need time to materialize.

Ever noticed how Nichols Hill doesn't have any 4 lane roads other the NW63 and none of their streets have very good street markings, despite the fact that 100% of them have drive for everything.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 01:18 PM
Good point, although violent, gang-based crime may play off of the national economy by virtue of the drug trade and human trafficking going through OKC... So many variables in crime statistics...

True. And this could also relate to my point about our good economy drawing more crime. We have a more lucrative drug market now to fight over.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 01:20 PM
Hold on, I am not saying that an individual's chance of being murder is related to that inidividual's commute time. I am saying that as the population sprawls crime increase. One indication of sprawl is average commute time.

This is true and obvious. Just look at the map the Oklahoman posted about where these murders are occurring. Many of them are happening in former "good areas to move to to avoid crime." Sprawl just produces more blighted areas.

Furthermore, sprawl breaks down communities, leading to more disintegration in the social fabric and more people being disconnected from one another. Prosaic to be sure, but certainly an underlying psychological factor.

soonerguru
11-26-2012, 01:28 PM
It would be nice if our society had different priorities:

- It's a lot cheaper to educate someone than to incarcerate them.
- It would be nice if we were concerned about people's health and well being as much as we are their criminality. Wouldn't it be great if we had more health professionals and mental health professionals than cops?
- We have many unfilled jobs; shouldn't we be investing more as a society in job training?

Just the facts
11-26-2012, 01:37 PM
This is true and obvious. Just look at the map the Oklahoman posted about where these murders are occurring. Many of them are happening in former "good areas to move to to avoid crime." Sprawl just produces more blighted areas.

Furthermore, sprawl breaks down communities, leading to more disintegration in the social fabric and more people being disconnected from one another. Prosaic to be sure, but certainly an underlying psychological factor.

And the opposite is true as well. Start adding people and crime goes down.

Just the facts
11-26-2012, 01:39 PM
It would be nice if our society had different priorities:

- It's a lot cheaper to educate someone than to incarcerate them.
- It would be nice if we were concerned about people's health and well being as much as we are their criminality. Wouldn't it be great if we had more health professionals and mental health professionals than cops?
- We have many unfilled jobs; shouldn't we be investing more as a society in job training?

All that would be great but until we stop doing the things that create those problems in the first place it isn't going to do much good. You can fight a house fire but if you don't stop the arsonist all you do is keep fighting fires.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 01:52 PM
2919

I'd say there's no correlation between OKC's homicide rate and unemployment rate... Don't have time to do the national comparison at the moment.

Just the facts
11-26-2012, 01:59 PM
2919

I'd say there's no correlation between OKC's homicide rate and unemployment rate... Don't have time to do the national comparison at the moment.

Not on a year by year case no. That is the problem so many causal studies miss on. For unemployment to correlate to murders in the same year one would have to assume that you go from employed to murderer in a few months. The relationship might take 10 years to have an effect, and of course the unemployment rate chnage multiple times in 10 years. Long-term trends require long-term causes.

LakeEffect
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Reading the stories about some of the accused, one might ask how many of the murderers were ever employed to begin with...

OKCTalker
11-26-2012, 02:05 PM
I know that it's more complicated than this, but Ivory soap in the mouth and a swat across the bottom during childhood reduces criminal behavior during adulthood.