View Full Version : South Canal



rjstone208
08-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Wife & I did a volksmarch yesterday on the canal & through downtown. Several questions came to mind. Wasn't there originally a plan to extend the canal to the river? And extend westward? At the south end doesn't look like that's possible now with the new freeway. There's a creek that runs underneath but don't think that can be utilized. Second question: is the Land Run Monument complete? Looks like it hasn't been added to in a year or so. Again I thought that it wasn't complete and plans were to add to it.

catch22
08-26-2012, 10:25 AM
There is a bridge under the new interstate that the canal will pass under.

Can't answer your other question.

OKCisOK4me
08-26-2012, 11:57 AM
Don't have any links to the renderings of why that bridge goes under I-40 but in those renderings, it's not for the canal, it's an extension of the arm off the river for the riverboats to get closer to the canal which is 30 or so feet higher.

bluedogok
08-26-2012, 12:02 PM
The river and canal were never intended to connect, the canal is a self-contained body of water that is easier to maintain without the introduction of natural water into the system. As OKCisOK4me stated, the river was intended to be extended to "meet" the canal but never really connect, just a transition point from one to the other.

kevinpate
08-26-2012, 12:07 PM
This. They'll spend, pardon the pun, a boatload of money to extend the river spur closer to the existing south end pool of the canal. They'll also build a zig-zag walkway at the southeastern end of the canal pool for folks to use to walk between the canal end point and the new riverboat endpoint.

I'm not seeing the point myself, but someone thinks it is a great idea.

As for the Land Run Monument, it was originally intended to have several more pieces, and perhaps someday it shall. I've chosen to not hold my breath as I wait and see.

Snowman
08-26-2012, 01:05 PM
The river and canal were never intended to connect, the canal is a self-contained body of water that is easier to maintain without the introduction of natural water into the system. As OKCisOK4me stated, the river was intended to be extended to "meet" the canal but never really connect, just a transition point from one to the other.

At one point there was consideration of a lock to connect the river and canal but that was removed due to cost by the time the first shovels hit the ground to dig the canal.

Larry OKC
08-27-2012, 11:15 AM
As originally pitched by Mayor Norick, the Canal was to be a continuous ride all the way from the River, thru Bricktown, on to the Convention Center. It wasn't supposed to be on the street it is now either. Things changed and we only got the Bricktown segment with the original MAPS ( at over 2 times the expected cost). The Canal/River "extension" was funded with the 2007 General Obligation Bond issue. While it is coming within budget, they have subdivided some elements due to cost increases that may/may not be built at a lter date (similar to what they did with Project 180). There was an effort lead by former Mayors Norick & Humphreys to complete and/or extend the Canal as part of MAPS 3, but it didn't make the final cut.

As far as the Land Run Monument goes, it is not complete either. Originally there were to be 77 statues (one for each of the counties). Due to cost increases, they cut back the total number of statues considerably, but even that number isn't done yet.

Bellaboo
08-27-2012, 11:23 AM
As far as the Land Run Monument goes, it is not complete either. Originally there were to be 77 statues (one for each of the counties). Due to cost increases, they cut back the total number of statues considerably, but even that number isn't done yet.

Close but no cigar -

"Oklahoma Centennial Land Run Monument"
(365’ long; 46 life and a half elements), Bronze, Commissioned by the Centennial Committee, State of Oklahoma, Federal Government, and the city of Oklahoma City, to be placed at Bricktown, Oklahoma City, OK. So far 27 bronze elements are completed and installed. Currently, five additional pieces are being sculpted or cast. Estimated completion 2015.

Larry OKC
08-28-2012, 08:05 AM
Bellaboo: I distinctly recall it because of the statue=county component. That was how it was originally pitched/designed. What you quoted is what it ended up being. Big difference.

Bellaboo
08-28-2012, 08:55 AM
Bellaboo: I distinctly recall it because of the statue=county component. That was how it was originally pitched/designed. What you quoted is what it ended up being. Big difference.

I always heard it was for being the 46th state. I don't think all 77 counties had a thing to do with the land run of '89. If they were doing it by counties they would have had about 7 statues.

Not buying it.

I got the info I posted from their website.

Urbanized
08-28-2012, 11:40 AM
Larry, your memory and research on issues like this are usually unassailable, but in this case I believe you are incorrect. I've had a unique perspective of this project from proposal to its current state, and have discussed it with both the fundraisers (Blake Wade, Lee Allen Smith) and with the artist (Paul Moore). Also have reviewed plans prior to canal alterations and before the very first installation, plus have witnessed the placement of a number of the pieces. To my knowledge, long before ground was broken, this was sold as a 46 piece installation.

You are correct about the public portion of the budget being trimmed, but at the time this meant that the 46 pieces were to be cut to thirty something. Blake Wade since made statements that all 46 pieces would be installed, even if that specific piece of public funding failed to materialize. I think that is the source of the confusion.

Not sure of the exact current piece count, but as mentioned they are still working on additional statues. I will say that how many pieces the series is comprised of depends upon your definition of "piece." For instance, I believe a man on a wagon pulled by two horses would be considered 3 if not 4 pieces. If memory serves, the overall LENGTH of the sculpture (multiple pieces together make a single sculpture in this case) was intended to be 365 feet, which (again, if I am correct) would make it the LONGEST bronze sculpture series in the world.

Just the facts
08-28-2012, 12:24 PM
I definately remember something with the Centennial having 77 items.

Snowman
08-28-2012, 12:32 PM
I definately remember something with the Centennial having 77 items.

There are also some markers/columns and other things around, possibly combined with the statues it would make 77 items.

Fantastic
08-28-2012, 12:33 PM
I definately remember something with the Centennial having 77 items.

I have never heard anything about it ever being more than 46 statues, and if there is anyone who would know, it would be Urbanized. No offense to anyone who thinks they have all the information, but when it comes to the history and development of the canal, I'd listen to him. Sure anyone could be wrong about a specific detail here or there, but Urbanized is closer to it than any of us.

Fantastic
08-28-2012, 12:33 PM
There are also some markers and other things around, possibly combined with the statues it would make 77 items.

Good point!

rjstone208
08-28-2012, 01:20 PM
Hard to do an exact count since as Urbanized said, it depends on definition of piece, but we counted about 27 sculptured pieces. Having the old crosstown gone is like a whole new world along the canal now. Open sky good; big views of the tin buildings of the mill not so good. As it is now, the river and boathouse row are isolated from the canal which seems a shame for both locals and tourists. I-40 still kind of a barrier north from south. Maybe they should have run it down the middle of the river. :D

Urbanized
08-28-2012, 01:44 PM
I'm not saying I can't be wrong on this one; only that I have followed it more closely than most since the project was first announced. Pretty sure the max number has always been 46 pieces. Perhaps Steve can chime in or even quote an article from NewsOK's archives, as the initial announcement was during the period when he was downtown beat reporter, if I am not mistaken.

Just the facts
08-28-2012, 01:53 PM
There are also some markers/columns and other things around, possibly combined with the statues it would make 77 items.

If you include all of the bronze pieces it comes to 79. Maybe I am thinking of the number of stars on one of the proposed quarter designs.

From DougDawg back in 2008

http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/07/oklahoma-land-run-monument.html


This City of Oklahoma City news item states the number of sculptures to be 45. The complete assembly was to include 38 people, 34 horses, 3 wagons, 1 buggy, 1 sulky, 1 dog, 1 rabbit and 1 cannon.

Fantastic
08-28-2012, 03:03 PM
Actually, I think I recall one of the water taxi captains saying something about 77 pieces. Perhaps that is where the confusion is from. I have been on the boat when they like to stretch the truth a little. They might have been simply repeating bad information.

*facepalm*

Here we go again... just like the I-40 demolition... blame Water Taxi.

Is this the same idiot that said I-40 was being blown up for a movie? Please let me know. The only thing that should be pointed out as having the number 77 is the 77 bricks around the Devon Mosaic which are engraved with the names of the 77 counties. If anyone is saying that there were supposed to be 77 statues, let me know who.

Urbanized
08-28-2012, 03:08 PM
All of the INDIVIDUAL bronze pieces. If you read Doug's post closely, it says:


...The overall project was budgeted for $5,100,000. $1.7 M came from a federal grant, the state contributed $1.7 M, and Oklahoma City's $1.7 M share was budgeted to be paid in installments through 2012. But, higher foundry costs than expected meant that the budgeted amount would fall short of the cost of the original 45-47 structures and an April 14, 2008, Oklahoman article indicated that the number of sculptures had been pared back to 38, at least for the time being...

Just the facts
08-28-2012, 03:29 PM
No matter how you add it up - it doesn't come out to 77.

Fantastic
08-28-2012, 06:14 PM
It has been a couple years. But this conversation seems to trigger something familiar with the 77 counties and the statues. But I just can't be 100% sure that it was the water taxi. Just seem right as I recall. :)

By the way... do forgive if I came off sounding a little irritated. It really wasn't how I intended for that to sound. I know that there have been boat drivers who have told some tall tales. But believe me the management down there does a great job of weeding out the story tellers, and if they do slip through and make it to the canal, the other boat drivers are pretty good about keeping an eye on the rookies, and even the veteran drivers at times, because no one is perfect.

And Sid, (or anyone else for that matter), if you hear anything questionable on a Water Taxi, feel free to let the management know. There is no doubt that it will be cleared up by the end of the day. It wouldn't suprise me if you did hear that on one of the boats, but I doubt it was from one of the current drivers. If it was, I'm pretty sure it has been resolved by now.

Larry OKC
08-29-2012, 08:45 AM
I ask this question because I really don't know. Was it pitched/sold to the public this way? In other words, did they go to the public, ask for $x with this proposal, then change it later? Or was the original 77 statues one proposal of several design ideas that eventually were crafted into the current plan.
From what I recall, it wasn't "pitched to the public" per se as it didn't require voter approval for the funds, think it came from existing revenue streams (at least for the City's part). I agree it was the original plan but got trimmed over the years for whatever reason.


I always heard it was for being the 46th state. I don't think all 77 counties had a thing to do with the land run of '89. If they were doing it by counties they would have had about 7 statues.

Not buying it.

I got the info I posted from their website.
I understand where you got the info and you are correct, we didn't have 77 counties at the time of the land run, that is just what the staues were representing, what would become Oklahoma and the eventual existing 77 counties. The article indicated that a statue composed of the wagon, horses, people was considered (1) statue, the cannon/soldier (1) ranging down to the rabbit (1) dog (1). The article may have been in error on that point though. One of the problems with "official" sites is that intentional or unintentional revisionist history can sometimes come into play. Didn't built it as you promised? No problem, just change what you said you promised. Unless someone has the quote or video handy...


Actually, I think I recall one of the water taxi captains saying something about 77 pieces. Perhaps that is where the confusion is from. I have been on the boat when they like to stretch the truth a little. They might have been simply repeating bad information.
I have heard water taxi "tall tales" but this wasn't one of them. I definitely read it, most likely in the Oklahoman or Gazette. Probably have the article buried somewhere but don't have a clue on where to find it. Have tried locating it online but no luck thus far. Unfortunately, it doesn't mean anything either way as articles that I am holding in my hand aren't online.

Urbanized
08-29-2012, 02:23 PM
Two of the oldest and most relevant entries I could find in the archives of The Oklahoman:

http://newsok.com/istook-backs-federal-funds-for-land-run-statues/article/2724517


Istook backs federal funds for Land Run statues
Chris Casteel | Published: December 25, 2000

WASHINGTON - When Oklahoma Transportation Secretary Neal McCaleb asked Rep. Ernest Istook to help the state secure federal funds to build a Capitol dome, Istook declined, saying the dome was a state project that should be paid for by state residents...

...The money being sought by Istook would cover less than one-third of the cost, which also will be borne by the state and private donations. The 36 statues are planned for near the interchange of Interstates 35 and 235, and are part of the state Centennial Commission's effort to celebrate 100 years of statehood in 2007...


http://newsok.com/norman-sculptor-finds-inspiration-in-monumental-job/article/2752904


Norman sculptor finds inspiration in monumental job
Chip Minty | Published: August 26, 2001

NORMAN - Sometimes, a man's heroes define the man.

Oklahoma sculptor Paul Moore has plenty of them. He has a personal library packed with art books full of heroes...

...After more than 20 years as a professional sculptor, creating more than 60 pieces of commissioned art, the native Oklahoman faces his own Mount Rushmore.

The 44-year-old sculptor-in-residence at the University of Oklahoma has begun the Oklahoma Centennial Land Run, a 45-piece sculpture depicting one of the most famous and dramatic moments in state history.

Once complete, it will be a $5 million bronze monument to the men, women and families who staked claims on unassigned lands more than 100 years ago...


I'm sorry guys, I have done a pretty exhaustive search in the archives for this, and can find lots of references to 45 pieces and "45-47 pieces," and even the 2000 reference to the Istook funding which mentions 36 pieces, but can find no evidence for 77 pieces anywhere. Somewhere along the line I know I heard specifically 46, because I think it began being neatly tied to our status as the 46th star in the U.S. flag, which fit neatly with the Centennial theme.

I also found items like this (http://www.downtownokc.com/Portals/1/PDF/skyline_snapshot_3rd_Quarter_2005.pdf) online, a Downtown OKC Inc Skyline Snapshot from 2005 (before budget concerns arose), and it again mentions the 45 number.

As has been discussed, the math gets a little loosey-goosey surrounding just what constitutes a piece when horses, people and wagons are used in combination, but I stand by my belief that there has never been an official public mention of 77 statues. You can persist in arguing it, but I have already spent too much time proving something I was already quite certain of, so I'm done with this particular line of discussion.

Regarding Water Taxi tours, the 60+ page heavily-vetted tour guide information handout that is provided to all Ambassadors during training (most recently updated in February of this year) states the following:


Centennial Land Run monument

Located just south of the I-40 overpass, the sculpture will be 45 bronze pieces will be 1 times life-size, or "heroic" scale (6 foot tall man would be a 9 foot tall statue). The sculpture includes men, women, covered wagons, and animals, and is a “snapshot in time” of the early moments of the Run for the Unassigned Lands.

When it is complete, it will be the longest bronze sculpture series in the world, at 365 feet in length.

By himself, the dog that is currently in place weighs 600 pounds, mainly because of its stainless steel skeleton. The rabbit weighs in at a paltry 80 pounds. These are the two smallest pieces of Moore's work-in-progress. The other 43 pieces include horses, riders and wagons, all capturing a split-second of the Land Run.

The sculpture is by University of Oklahoma artist-in-residence Paul Moore, who also created the Johnny Bench statue at the ballpark's home plate entrance, and is overseeing a project to add sculptures of prominent OU educators to the niches of university buildings on the Norman campus.

The man sitting on the buckboard wagon on the immediate east bank of the canal is actually the artist himself; a self-portrait of Paul Moore.

Larry OKC
08-30-2012, 09:06 PM
Urbanized: everything you posted is similar to what I found to when I went searching for it. But I KNOW what I read and just as the 46 number is stuck in your head because of it being the same as our admission into the Union and the Centennial, the 77 number is stuck in mine because it was equal to the counties and the correlation was specifically mentioned in the article. Again, just because it cant be found on an internet search, doesn't mean it doesn't exist either. There have been current articles from the Oklahoman & Gazette that I have been holding in my hand that haven't shown up either on a Google search or even the Oklahoman's internal search feature. I know you aren't going to believe me until I produce the article and I am fine with that. It is what it is.

jn1780
08-30-2012, 09:55 PM
When is the river suppose to be extended under I-40? Is there an estimated timeline?

Fantastic
08-31-2012, 11:12 AM
Doesn't the other water feature have a 77 county correlation of some kind?

Are you speaking of the Devon Mosaic on the North End?

Larry OKC
08-31-2012, 08:16 PM
Sid: are you talking about the Centennial fountain in front of Sonic and Harkins?

Steve
09-01-2012, 08:06 AM
The truth is the city and sculptor have quietly changed the number of pieces from time to time over the years due to higher than forecasted costs, etc.

Larry OKC
09-04-2012, 10:13 PM
Sid: although I have mentioned the 77 at various comment sections elsewhere, I promise that I was not the uncited Wiki "contributor". :p

dankrutka
09-05-2012, 12:40 AM
Sid: although I have mentioned the 77 at various comment sections elsewhere, I promise that I was not the uncited Wiki "contributor". :p

What's your IP address then? ;) Lol.

Larry OKC
09-05-2012, 08:17 AM
Kilgore: I dont give that info out randomly but it isn't what Sid posted. there was another forum that I posted in a couple of years ago that according to the moderator, it said my computer was located in another state (think it was Kansa). I promised them that my computer and I were indeed in OKC. I have Cox internet if that makes a diffence but I don't know why it would or wouldn't.

Sid: no worries here, just wanted to clarify :)

Fantastic
09-05-2012, 11:50 AM
Thus far, I haven't found any other mention of 77 counties except here on the Wikipedia pages and in comments left by Larry in various places on the internet.

If it's on Wikipedia it is true. If it's not, it doesn't exist. That is all...

Fantastic
09-05-2012, 11:51 AM
No, on the north end of the canal, I thought there was something there that had to do with the 77 counties.

The bricks around the Devon Mosaic are engraved with the names of the 77 counties.

Fantastic
09-05-2012, 11:51 AM
The truth is the city and sculptor have quietly changed the number of pieces from time to time over the years due to higher than forecasted costs, etc.

Not suprising. I acctually heard a rumor (let me be clear... RUMOR) that the current target is 46 statues (note I said statues... not structures, not elements... statues) but only 45 are funded. I've seen and/or heard it go as low as 36 (rumor) and as high as 47 (rumor). But even if the funding was currently only in place for 45, we're still a few years away from this thing being complete, no reason to think that it wouldn't end up being 46.