Here's the latest on Penn Square Mall:

1. As most of you know, Coach and Apple will be sharing the old Lane Bryant space on upscale row. LB has now moved to their temporary facility near JC Penney. They will be locating on the Foleys wing, upper level!

2. Elephant Bar signed a lease for the old Wards Automotive space on the southeast outparcel. They will be starting construction later this year. If you haven't checked out this chain, check out their website.....you'll be impressed. I've been to the one in Dallas, and I'd say it's an African version of Rainforest Cafe. Very impressed. http://www.elephantbar.com/

3. Management is taking with Cheesecake Factory and Maggiano's for the parcels over off Penn by UMB Bank. If this happened, they wouldn't open until 2007 or 2008.

4. Penn Square Mall requires remodels every 5-7 years. So over the next few years, you'll be seeing remodels of some of the older stores. Kirklands was recently remodeled. The Body Shop is currently reing remodeled. Eddie Bauer will be next.

5. At the mall, sales are up 9% so far this year! Penn Square stillleads the state as the highest profit-making mall, and has sales per square foot way higher than the national average. This is the reason we keep getting upscale stores there.

Elephant Bar is a good get! I think it will do very well there.


I know they are opening a location on Memorial in Tulsa as well.

Oh man, Cheesecake Factory would be a coup for OKC. That is one of the best restaurants.

Here's a couple of Elephant Bar shots from their website:

http://www.elephantbar.com/images/photos/dining_shot_bg.jpg

http://www.elephantbar.com/images/photos/round_bar_2_bg.jpg

Elephant Bar looks cool. I just hope there is enough parking. On weekends, that lot by the east Dillards is already filled with cars.

While I am very excited about Cheesecake Factory, I am concerned about what Penn Square is doing. By selling (or long term leases) off all these areas, they are locking themselves into no expansion of the mall. Future expansion after these lots are gone will probably require another garage to be build (which is expensive and very well could deter Simon from expanding). The reason Penn Square has such good sales per sq ft is becuase it is so small. While it has many upscale stores not found anywhere else in OKC, they are all smaller than same-chain stores even in Tulsa, let alone any city in Texas.

It has already been discussed how land-locked Penn Square is compared to Quail Springs. Right now, I live near Quail, but do all my shopping at Penn. I'd really like to see Quail add a few upscale stores to its list-- like Banana Republic, Pottery Barn, etc. And most of all-- I wish someone would add a Nordstrom in OKC!!! Their prices are just slightly higher than Dillard's, but the brands and quality are far superior.

One other question: Are both of our Foley's (Penn and Quail) going to be converted to Macy's? Not just name changed-- actually converted. Macy's is much better than Foley's.

Also, I remember Patrick mentioning something a while back regarding Penn Square expansion... If I remember correctly, he said something about Penn Square building a separate mini-mall kind of thing that would essentially be an extension of the mall without being connected to it. Correct me if I'm wrong, Patrick, it's sort of vague now. Do you remember?

It almost sounds like the best option for Penn is develop in the way Somertset Collection in Troy, MI was put together. The mall is essentially two buildings joined by a skywalk with a road running through them.

http://www.thesomersetcollection.com/

This is really good news. These are quality operations. IMHO, Elephant Bar is much more interesting than Rainforest Cafe.

Ah, Somerset... I had a consulting project at K-Mart HQ (almost right across the street) in the dead of winter a few years back.

Was an okay mall but an otherwise traumatic experience. :)

don't worry brian, the banana republic store in lubbock is about the size of a 7-11 bathroom and usually consists of the endtrails of the merchandise that hasn't sold in other markets.

Lubbock has a BR?!? I didn't realize that there was a nicer store than Dollar General in Lubbock. Actually, that makes me sad that they have one, and we have one, and Tulsa has two (both of which are way better than ours).

i like the one in utica square. actually, i like everything in utica square. :)

Actually, both Quail and Penn are sorta landlocked in their current configuration. Quail used their last opening with the theater. Penn could still expand on the Pepperoni Grill side, but parking is always an issue at Penn.

All market studies have shown the market can't support any larger malls for the area, so I doubt either Penn or Quail will expand anytime soon.

I also question the use of valuable parking space at Penn Square for restaurants. About Elephant Bar, you have to remember this space was once filled by Wards Automotive, so recent parking there has only been a bonus.
Parking located near the UMB bank isn't used during most periods of the year, but I always question the Christmas season. Parking at Penn Square is always a mess at the holiday time. I've asked management about it, and they haven't really given me a clear answer. One thing they need to realize is that not only will filling these outparcels take up valuable parking, they'll also make it tough on the restaurants during the holiday season, as their parking will be taken up by mall patrons.

I think Penn Square management is just trying to squeeze out every last square inch of that property.

What they should have done is purchased the Belle Isle Station property several years ago, before the strip mall was developed. But even then, JC Penney is blocking the way to expansion that direction.

I think what you're currently seeing (development on th eperiphery of malls) is the norm now. Just look at Quail Springs and Crossroads. Quail is selling off or leasing pretty much every outparcel around the mall, or they'd like to. Crossroads owns many of the stores surrounding the property.

Developing these outparcels can have two effects.....1. Draw traffic to the strip developments and away from the mall. OR 2. Draw more traffic to the area in hopes of drawing more traffic to the mall.

Luke, you asked about the possible development on Penn Square's northwest corner. There were thoughts of developing a small strip center around the bank, but a lot of that was based on businesses expressing an interest for those outparcels. Right now, Penn Square is entertaining offers on the parking space on both sides of the bank....north all the way to the creek, and south all the way to the main west entrance. If two restaurants (Cheesecake Factory and Maggiano's) are picked for those outparcels, that may be all we see there.

By the way, tenants in 50 Penn Place are already complaining about management's decision to allow Olive Garden to build on one of their parking lots. Tenants like Pendelton and Full Circle have had their parking extremely reduced.

Thanks, Patrick. Keep us updated on those restaurants. Those would be great additions to the OKC market, in my opinion.

I am not sure if Elephant Bar's are all company owned or independently owned and operated (franchised) but, I sure wish I owned a location or 2.

I actually have no problem with them adding nice new upscale restaurants to the market. But, I do wish they'd build another parking garage in the back, possibly outside of BC Clark. Maybe that will come with time.

The actual number of parking spaces increased at 50 Penn Place and Full Circle was granted the number of reserved they requested. The last rumors stated here I thought were that Talbots, Pendleton and Balliets were all going to this proposed expansion at Penn Square Mall. From what I read in the paper, Balliets just renewed for either 5 or 7 years?

I can't wait for the Elephant Bar. I've been to the cheesecake factory in Dallas and I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. I thought the same of PH Changs, so ya know...

I've been to the cheesecake factory in Dallas and I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. I thought the same of PH Changs, so ya know...

I'm with you and, besides, we generally get these kind of establishments when they create no real competitive advantage, in that everyone already has them. IMO, what keeps people going back to places and what creates a great place to live, are unique and intersting restaurants run by locals and found no where else. I doubt there is anything on a cheesecake factory menu you can't already find in OKC and with all the chinese, vietnamese, Thai, and pho noodle places in OKC (most within a few bloack of each other), who really needs a PF Chang's (which you can get in the frozen food section, btw ;) )?

The actual number of parking spaces increased at 50 Penn Place and Full Circle was granted the number of reserved they requested. The last rumors stated here I thought were that Talbots, Pendleton and Balliets were all going to this proposed expansion at Penn Square Mall. From what I read in the paper, Balliets just renewed for either 5 or 7 years?

Those rumors were posted "months" ago. Since then, management at 50 Penn Plae has come to the realization that there's a possiblity of losing their anchor tenants, thus they changed their approach in dealing with those stores. Even the article from the Oklahoman states that Balliets was seriously looking around at alternative locations, but management at 50 Penn Place stepped up to the plate and offered them a decent deal a hope for the future there.

Patrick, do you have any insights onto what the future of 50 Penn will be? I mean, if it continues the way it is, then it's going to be a couple of stores and an office building...

Patrick, do you have any insights onto what the future of 50 Penn will be? I mean, if it continues the way it is, then it's going to be a couple of stores and an office building...'

Honestly, that's the best I see for it. Of course, all new owners come in with good intentions, but from what I've been told, the new owners are a tad bit more concerned about leasing the tower, and less concerned about the mall itself. Keeping Balliets is a plus for them, but I honestly don't think that's the fix-all.
Putting Metropolitan College in the mall I think was the start of a downward trend. Gives me that Shepherd Mall feeling.

Overall, I'd say the future of the mall is up in the air.

Yeah, I don't think of Metropolitan College when I think of an upscale mall. That's laughable actually. If I was a tenant at the time they came in, I would have serious doubts about mall management. Too bad, it really does have a lot of potential.

Doesn't any prudent tenant "seriously" look at all of their options? From what I have heard, all of these tenants were already on term leases and therefore did not have the ability to re-locate until their leases expired.

Doesn't any prudent tenant "seriously" look at all of their options? From what I have heard, all of these tenants were already on term leases and therefore did not have the ability to re-locate until their leases expired.

Yeah, I think that's what happened here....when the new owners came in, the existing tenants began to look at their options.

Actually when the new ownership took over, all of the leases were transfered to short term, month by month leases. This was short term while the ownership group came up with a master plan for the mall area itself. With that being done, they're now signing long term leases again. It's imporant to note that anytime a new ownership group comes in, they don't have to honor the original leases of the previous owner.

From what I've been told, the reason Balliet's stayed was due to a number of factors.....traffic flow in the area, stable regular customer base in the area, decent lease, established business already known to ne at 50 Penn Place (had they moved they would've had to spend a lot of money re-establishing themselves in a new location), etc. etc.

I thought it seemed like Olive Garden took away a lot of parking for 50 Penn. But it's a lot bigger deal to get an Elephant Bar, a Maggiano's, and a Cheesecake Factory. Those are all very exclusive places. Although I'd rather see them go to Bricktown.

Elephant Bar formally announced this morning plans to locate in the pad site of Penn Square. It looks like it will be Asian food, but a Jungle theme.

They do have some Asian food, but they also have a lot of other types of food, i.e., pizza, sandwiches, burgers, etc. I'd say it's pretty much in line with RainForest Cafe.

Isn't this just a redecorated Chili's?

http://www.elephantbar.com/

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to have a brand name for the sake of commerce and retail, but is anyone really excited about eating there? They won't be bringing anything new to the city.

The bar area is usually pretty happening and the atmosphere is definitely different than a Chili's.

Yes, it's a chain but it's different enough that I think people will enjoy it. They are pretty popular out here.

Good deal. I couldn't get a handle on the atmosphere from the website. I just felt like I was looking at a Chili's menu with maybe some more Soy or Teriyaki involved. :)

Have you eaten there? Is the food better than most chains or pretty par for that kind of deal?

For a chain, it's better than most.

I like their menu selections but that's just a personal preference.


It's a great place to go for happy hour and some of the locations pull a younger crowd.

Yeah, I've eaten at one the locations in the LA vicinity (can't remember the exact burb, but it's in the 310 ) and the food was great in my opinion. I've also eaten at the location in Vegas and just had one of their much touted exotic beverages. I wouldn't describe the food in terms of a Chili's, it's more like a Bahama Breeze/Chili's (Burger Menu)/Hooters-Buffalo Wild Wings.---Allow me to clarify that last part. The wait staff isn't built to make your waist happy, but the overall atmosphere was a little boisterous and lively while still being controlled. All 4 times I've been, there have been many people there my age (24) all having a good time as well as other younger people in their 20's and 30's and early 40's. I think it'll work out great in that spot. I'm glad they chose that area opposed to lumping in with all the others sprouting up on Memorial.

I looked at the menu. Expensive, but looks good. When it opens, I will go with a date.

It would be a rare, special treat.

You'll have fun, it's a great atmosphere for a date. Even for a first date it's cool because of the fun ambiance. I'll be frequenting often too, whenever I'm home. I'll also bring a lady friend. Or find some while I'm there. Or both.:butbutbut YOU BETCHA!!!!

I think it's definetely way above Chili's. If you look at their locations, outside of the California this is a pretty exclusive place: St. Louis, KC area, Co. Springs, Denver, Tulsa, Phoenix, a few others and now here. Pretty good place to land if you ask me.

I think it's definetely way above Chili's. If you look at their locations, outside of the California this is a pretty exclusive place: St. Louis, KC area, Co. Springs, Denver, Tulsa, Phoenix, a few others and now here. Pretty good place to land if you ask me.

tulsa has one already!!?

tulsa has one already!!?


Of course, Tulsa gets most eating establishments before we do because of population density. I bet the EB there is doing really well.

Of course, Tulsa gets most eating establishments before we do because of population density.


????

My statement was based on CB Ellis market analysis and a quote from the general manager of Red Robin in Norman. The following is from an interview he had with the Journal Record a couple months back.:smile:




“Routinely, Tulsa ranks as one of the fastest growing cities for restaurants,” said Scott Allen, general manager of Red Robin in Norman off Lindsay and Ed Noble Parkway. “P.F. Changs went to Tulsa first and was there for a while before coming here. We were there first, too. I see that quite a bit.”

Allen said the deference to Tulsa has more to do with its population density and of it being confined to a smaller geographic area than anything else.

“The difference between Tulsa and Oklahoma City is that Tulsa is one big area whereas Oklahoma City is spread out into a lot of smaller areas,” he said.

My statement was based on CB Ellis market analysis and a quote from the general manager of Red Robin in Norman. The following is from an interview he had with the Journal Record a couple months back.:smile:




“Routinely, Tulsa ranks as one of the fastest growing cities for restaurants,” said Scott Allen, general manager of Red Robin in Norman off Lindsay and Ed Noble Parkway. “P.F. Changs went to Tulsa first and was there for a while before coming here. We were there first, too. I see that quite a bit.”

Allen said the deference to Tulsa has more to do with its population density and of it being confined to a smaller geographic area than anything else.

“The difference between Tulsa and Oklahoma City is that Tulsa is one big area whereas Oklahoma City is spread out into a lot of smaller areas,” he said.

Why would the density of Oklahoma City vs. Tulsa make a difference? Los Angles-Orange County is actually as large as Oklahoma City, and population not withstanding, has no problem attracting places. The comparison makes no sense.

Why would the density of Oklahoma City vs. Tulsa make a difference? Los Angles-Orange County is actually as large as Oklahoma City, and population not withstanding, has no problem attracting places. The comparison makes no sense.

I live in LA half the time and can say that you're absolutely correct. However, LA-Long Beach is almost totally filled in opposed to OKC's sparse pop. density. My understanding is that the dining establishments have evidence that people will only travel so far to eat when there are so many other options. Therefore, placing a restaurant in Tulsa and drawing from an assumed square mileage is safer that that same proposition in OKC. This is especially true when talking about higher scale eateries as the price point further filters potential customers. Although I feel that this is a convoluted approach to expansion, it seems to be the going ideological stance that the industry has taken. I feel that we support new restaurants well and they seem to always find success here. Nevertheless, whereas people hesitate to travel inordinate distances to eat they will travel further to shop. Establishments such as the Cheesecake Factory etc. are increasingly locating inside of malls or in Town Centers. This allows them to catch some of the destination traffic that these venues can draw. It's no coincidence that our Elephant Bar will be located pratically in the parking lot of Penn Square. In LA, several EB's are free standing just like our Applebee's, Chili's, etc. There are a collective of mixed use, town center type projects in the works here(some large in scale) and as more of these come online, we'll see more mid to upscale eateries (and see them sooner). First we have to create the destination areas that meet the current model that the restaurants are looking for.

Even places such as Omaha, NB and Des Moines, IA get most eating establishments before OKC does and for the same reasons. Wichita had a P. F. Changs before we did, and for the same reason. Oddly enough this only seems to apply to eateries and that line of thought is turning around.

I can't wait until we get a California Pizza Kitchen. Very good stuff.

i love cpk. i ate at the one in the beverly center.

Los Angles-Orange County is actually as large as Oklahoma City

That's exactly why. OKC is as large land wise, but only 1/10 the people. That what creates one of the lowest population densities in the US.

That's exactly why. OKC is as large land wise, but only 1/10 the people. That what creates one of the lowest population densities in the US.

Keep in mind, I said "population not withstanding." I am quite aware of the difference in population as LA-Orange County is one of my playgrounds. The rest of the theory is what makes no sense. It should be obvious the second or third largest area in the nation by population will get top billing.

I sill don't buy population density as a means of measurement for locating a restaurant in a certain market.

Tulsa may be smaller in land area, but it being 'one big area' has nothing to do with location scouting. The fact is, all of Tulsa's affluent areas are in one area, whereas Oklahoma City's affluent areas are in northwest OKC, far south OKC, Edmond and the Quail Springs region.

Even though Oklahoma City is 608 square miles, look at a wall map of the city sometime. The area that has been urbanized covers only a third of that, right in the middle. The rest is rural space with a few streets here and there. Which means a good 95 percent lives within that urbanized area... not to mention the swallowed suburbs of Nichols Hills, The Village, Warr Acres and Bethany. I call it the core of Oklahoma City. If it were LITERALLY spread out over all 608 square miles, we'd all have 30 acre backyards.

So no, I don't buy into population density. That distorts the true population density of areas that have been urbanized.

"Even though Oklahoma City is 608 square miles..."

Oklahoma City is 620 square miles.

I sill don't buy population density as a means of measurement for locating a restaurant in a certain market.

Tulsa may be smaller in land area, but it being 'one big area' has nothing to do with location scouting. The fact is, all of Tulsa's affluent areas are in one area, whereas Oklahoma City's affluent areas are in northwest OKC, far south OKC, Edmond and the Quail Springs region.

Even though Oklahoma City is 608 square miles, look at a wall map of the city sometime. The area that has been urbanized covers only a third of that, right in the middle. The rest is rural space with a few streets here and there. Which means a good 95 percent lives within that urbanized area... not to mention the swallowed suburbs of Nichols Hills, The Village, Warr Acres and Bethany. I call it the core of Oklahoma City. If it were LITERALLY spread out over all 608 square miles, we'd all have 30 acre backyards.

So no, I don't buy into population density. That distorts the true population density of areas that have been urbanized.

So true. And as I said I believe this thinking is very convoluted and erroneous. Nonetheless, that's a large part of the reasoning behind waiting to locate here. It's amazing! Once the franchises or the like finally build here, they rush in and build multiple locations. It's amazing that skewed numbers on some spreadsheet cause so many businesses to miss out on the oppotunities that exist here.:doh:

So no, I don't buy into population density. That distorts the true population density of areas that have been urbanized.

They actually don't look at it by the whole city. They look at a location and then they look at a 5 mile radius, then 10 and then 15, and then beyond. There is a market share equation that estimates their pull within those boundaries. Even by this method, our density is low in many areas comparatively. But this is why memorial is taking off and usually lands the new chains. The area bordered by memorial, 122nd, May and Penn, is one of the densest areas in the city. Beyond that, Edmond offers good income density. This is also one of the fastest growing residential areas of the city.

Some may not want it to be a factor and numbers can easily skew a market, but the fact is that it is a factor and no one is going to risk 100s of thousands on an investment if it doesn't fit their formulas. It’s just the way people do business, especially when they are far removed from that community. It's only after they have saturated other areas using their formulas that they reevaluate an area like Oklahoma City. Our city's low population density may not ultimately affect the success of an establishment placed in the right locale, but it certainly delays the initial interest of the decision makers.

So, it is, in fact, a reason Tulsa attracts some nationals before OKC does.

But this is one reason why bricktown and downtown can be very beneficial to OKC. We can create virtual density by drawing from the entire city. They will look at traffic as an indicator.

Personally, though, I don't think chains are a reason anyone travels to other cities and are not necessarily a measure of a city's health or quality of life. IMO, successful local eateries and outlets add much more to the character of a community and do more for its sustained success. When people talk about NYC, SF, Chicago, New Orleans, and LA as great places to eat, they are not talking about Cheesecak Factory or Red Robins.

Knock out 16 square miles of inland water (Hefner, Stanley Draper, Overholser), and you're looking at somewhere around 604.

At one point, the number was up to 640, but some really distant areas - for instance, in McClain County, now the north end of Newcastle - were deannexed.