After noting that my AC power consumption was a bit higher than I expected, I started taking some stock of my 13-year old home. I never realized that my builder installed exactly *zero* attic vents beyond those in the soffit (beneath the eave). When I started measuring attic temperature a few days ago, and found the floor temp to be about 115, and the temp eight feet off the floor to be 134 (40 degrees higher than the outside air), I was stunned. Always knew the attic was hotter, but never measured it.

Turns out that a difference *that* great is, in reality, *too* great. The consensus of a few roofing/HVAC sites is that the best you can generally aim for in practical terms is about 10-20 degrees difference (excepting things like complete spray-foam insulation, etc). It was then I started reading about attic venting, and realized my attic had none.

I talked to a retired builder, called a couple of local roofing companies, and opted to have two simple passive vents (not fans) installed. Jackson Roof came out yesterday and put them in around lunchtime. The result? Later that afternoon, measured at the same time of day, at the same location, with an outside temp of 91 instead of 94, my attic measured 114 at eight feet from the floor. That's a real-world 20-degree drop in attic temperature - heat that's no longer hitting my AC ducts or ceiling.

I may have done fractionally better with turbine vents or powered fans, but the former may be against my covenants (and I didn't want any neighborhood hassles) and the latter were consistently not recommended by folks who have them and seemingly are constantly repairing them because the motors go out.

We'll see over the next few days/weeks if that translates to some true power savings, but my wife and I both agreed the house felt much more comfortable even when the A/C was off. Maybe that's psychological, don't know, but for the moment I'm happy.

I've got an insulation contractor coming out to give me an estimate on a "refresh" blow-in of a few new inches of insulation given that the house is 13 years old. I was also considering a radiant barrier, but given that I may have knocked a huge chunk of extra heat merely by adding the vents, I may opt against it for now. We'll see.

Moral of the story: Make sure your attic is vented. I didn't even know to look until I realized the homes built by my builder over a decade ago were the only houses on my street without any venting.

We utilize both attic fans (pulling air through the house and into the attic (creates a nice air flow in the early mornings and at night - while also venting and cooling the attic). Plus, we also have solar powered attic fans on the roof that kick on when the temperature in the attic heats up (about $200 at Sam's). The combination of the two is really nice in our older (70's) home.

The importance of proper attic ventilation cannot be overestimated. If you have a house with a significant amount of straight ridge areas--such as a house with an L-shaped or H-shaped footprint--continuous ridge vents are a good choice. Our house had two turbine vents and built-in vents at the top of the three gables. BUT IT DIDN'T HAVE ANY SOFFIT VENTS. (Can you believe that?) I cut in a soffit vent every eight feet and when we get the house re-shingled (after the latest hail storm) I plan to lose the turbine vents and put in the continuous ridge vents. Another thing to note here is that it is important to make sure that your attic insulation doesn't block the air flow from the soffit vents.

BTW: I'm astounded that the City Building Inspectors passed your house on the final with no attic ventilation. They can sure be picky about other things. =)

The importance of proper attic ventilation cannot be overestimated. If you have a house with a significant amount of straight ridge areas--such as a house with an L-shaped or H-shaped footprint--continuous ridge vents are a good choice. Our house had two turbine vents and built-in vents at the top of the three gables. BUT IT DIDN'T HAVE ANY SOFFIT VENTS. (Can you believe that?) I cut in a soffit vent every eight feet and when we get the house re-shingled (after the latest hail storm) I plan to lose the turbine vents and put in the continuous ridge vents. Another thing to note here is that it is important to make sure that your attic insulation doesn't block the air flow from the soffit vents.

Our house isn't purely rectangular, but its closer to than than a hard L footprint. We've got a good opportunity for a ridge vent when time comes for a new roof. Soffit vents were/are all clear, although there are a few corners of the house I'm not quite sure-footed enough to reach. That's what I want the insulation guy to check out and evaluate for me. Also, the guy who installed my vents said there was some hail damage along my ridge that will need attention sooner rather than later, and I fully expect that when time comes for a new roof, a ridge vent will be one of the things chief on my list. May even look into replacing the roof decking with the variety that has a radiant barrier on one side, but I've read mixed opinions on that, and it may end up being prohibitive cost-wise.

I'm thinking I may have hit the sweet spot already for the biggest temperature reduction/cost "bang for the buck," because the vents were only $300, and my inference from the various sources I've read through that getting your attic within 10-20 degrees of the outside temperature is about the best you can realistically expect, and I'm just on the outside of that range. A $5K expense for a radiant barrier for, say, a 10 degree difference (which I'm thinking now may be waaay too optimistic a drop) probably goes outside the cost/benefit range, but maybe $1-2K for ~5" (?) new insulation to accomplish better in-house temperature control may be worth it. We'll see what the rep says on Thursday.

I still haven't made up my mind on how that radiant/reflective decking (that sounds good in theory) would affect the durability and lifespan of the shingles that cover it. I would imagine that there are some opinions expressed on some of the roofing manufacturers' websites, but I haven't really looked into the matter since redecking our house is not even close to being in the planning stages. Back in the 70s and 80s some builders used to use thin, reflective 4x8 panels for wall sheathing. One of the brand names was "Thermo-Ply". If the "reflectivity" is the main thing, I don't know why a layer of this light, relatively inexpensive material couldn't be applied over the existing decking prior to shingling. Still . . . if the sunlight isn't actually hitting the "reflective" surface (on account of being covered by roofing felt and/or shingles) I'm not really sure how any "reflective" material is supposed to do anything.

Radiative heat is light, RM.

Still . . . if the sunlight isn't actually hitting the "reflective" surface (on account of being covered by roofing felt and/or shingles) I'm not really sure how any "reflective" material is supposed to do anything.

Keep in mind that the material is heat-reflective, meaning that it reflects the radiated heat (just light in a different part of the spectrum), which is initially absorbed by the shingle and then re-emitted into the attic space. The kind of radiant barrier that is stapled to the underside of the roof rafters simply reflects the heat right back to the decking material, which is why some express concern about additional heat aimed at the shingles. I've read/seen a few reports that suggest the actual temperature increase to the shingle is really only about 6-7 degrees, and as a result isn't quite as damaging to the shingle material as some sales folks are leading people to believe.

Correct. And if the LIGHT isn't hitting the reflective surface (because of the shingles and the felt covering it) how does the reflective surface actually do what it is supposed to do? It just doesn't seem the same to me as putting one of those reflective things behind your car windshield to "bounce" the "light/heat" back outside your vehicle. Or to buy windows with Low-E glass to "bounce" the radiant heat (light) back outside your house. It seems to me that light colored shingles or shingles with extra-reflective granules would be much more effective in this connection than any sort of foil-based substrate.

I won't pretend to know all the physics on this, but I'm reasonably sure that "light" in this vein/region of the spectrum passes through solid objects, with some of the energy absorbed by the shingle, and that which passes through to the decking gets reflected by the radiant barrier.

The model I read which studied various kinds of RB's did indicate that the most effective kind is the one applied to the framing rafters, but I don't think it compared the performance of the decking material. The former resulted in an average attic temp decrease in their models and real-world tests of about 13 degrees, which is really, really startling.

Correct. And if the LIGHT isn't hitting the reflective surface (because of the shingles and the felt covering it) how does the reflective surface actually do what it is supposed to do? It just doesn't seem the same to me as putting one of those reflective things behind your car windshield to "bounce" the "light/heat" back outside your vehicle. Or to buy windows with Low-E glass to "bounce" the radiant heat (light) back outside your house. It seems to me that light colored shingles or shingles with extra-reflective granules would be much more effective in this connection than any sort of foil-based substrate.

No, I'm saying that as those shingles heat up(from being struck by visible and non-visible radiant energy) they emit light in the infrared spectrum. Some of it goes outwards into the atmosphere, some of it goes below them into the house. If you have a reflective surface there a lot of it will just go back into the shingle and be re-radiated in all directions again. I saw a study that said having light-colored roofs would save the US a boatload on electric bills. You're definitely right about light granules on shingles, but the combination of reflector and light color would still be best.

I know it’s not practical or affordable in every situation but the spray-foam insulation is a great product.
With new construction it’s probably the smart way to go.

I know it’s not practical or affordable in every situation but the spray-foam insulation is a great product.
With new construction it’s probably the smart way to go.

A friend of mine just built a new house and put spray foam in the attic, and his temps are incredible. Its much more expensive than blown insulation, but since its a new house for him and he plans to be there for many years, it made great sense from all perspectives. If I were building new, I'd spray-foam in a heartbeat.

No, I'm saying that as those shingles heat up(from being struck by visible and non-visible radiant energy) they emit light in the infrared spectrum. Some of it goes outwards into the atmosphere, some of it goes below them into the house. If you have a reflective surface there a lot of it will just go back into the shingle and be re-radiated in all directions again. I saw a study that said having light-colored roofs would save the US a boatload on electric bills. You're definitely right about light granules on shingles, but the combination of reflector and light color would still be best.

Bingo. As a kid, I remember living in a smallish house in SW OKC and it had white shingles. Wasn't until we got more "stylish" that we decided to start using black/dark shingles everywhere :) And I say that as someone who used to tease my wife for at one time having a black car in Oklahoma - man, was that thing H O T.

I won't pretend to know the physics either. =)
Especially the part about "light" passing through solid objects.

But don't let that detract from the importance of proper attic ventilation. =)

And thank you for that explanation, HWTJ. It helps to clarify the concept of "different kinds of 'light'".

So . . . Just out of curiosity . . .
Is the "radiant barrier" applied to the underside of the rafters, thereby creating "heat bays" (for lack of a better term) that could adversely affect the already less-that-top-notch lumber of which the rafters are composed (while interferring with the flow of "fresh" air from the soffit vents that helps to maintain something resembling an acceptable moisture content in the wood, that is, the rafters and the decking applied to them)? I suppose that if the areas where the rafters connect to the top plate were not obstructed, then fresh air could still surround these framing members, even if the rest of the attic space wouldn't benefit from the air flow . . .

P.S. Never try to work in an attic when it is very hot outside. It can literally kill you. (personal near-death experience)
P.S.2: Don't cover your turbine vents in the winter. This does nothing to save energy or increase comfort.

I know it’s not practical or affordable in every situation but the spray-foam insulation is a great product.
With new construction it’s probably the smart way to go.


How heavy is the spray foam?

How heavy is the spray foam?

I can’t tell you exactly what it is per square foot, but it’s very light. It’s about like a square foot of syrofome.

A friend of mine just built a new house and put spray foam in the attic, and his temps are incredible. Its much more expensive than blown insulation, but since its a new house for him and he plans to be there for many years, it made great sense from all perspectives. If I were building new, I'd spray-foam in a heartbeat.

Spray foam will increase a home’s value.
If I ever move to a different house it will be a mandatory requirement for me.
I had a retro fit spray foam job done just over a year ago and I like it very much.

Spray foam insulation in the walls and ceilings is a GREAT idea!
Especially now that they have figured out how to make it without (eventually) toxic chemicals and/or the associated outgassing.

The only realistic caveat that I can think of is that all of your wiring will have to be run in conduit (as in a commercial building) and any later changes to the wiring will not be inexpensive. (Unless, of course, one has no objection to wiring chases on interior wall and ceiling surfaces.)

The energy-saving and comfort-increasing benefits of spray foam insulation FAR outweigh the negatives.
Plus it's light. (it doesn't weigh a lot =)

Related Side Note:
Maybe eight years ago, I attended a seminar about building energy-efficient housing systems. One of the "Takeaways" that I still recall today is how stupid it is to run supply or return air conditioning ducts in non-air conditioned spaces (such as attics). The suggestion was made that duct chases--e.g. down hallway ceilings or [decorative] furr-downs around the perimeters of rooms within the air conditioned envelope--made a lot more sense and would save a lot of dollars. It might make a home seem more "motel/hotel/apartment-like" but that would be a small price to pay and you would get used to it, especially if the concept was incorporated into Building Codes.

Heck . . . I still wonder why Building Codes don't require a 36" door on at least one downstairs bathroom adjacent to a bedroom. (For minimal wheelchair access without extensive remodeling.) No . . . I'm not in a wheelchair. But back when I was a Remodeling Contractor I visited the home of a well-known local celebrity to do a site check and provide an estimate on accomplishing the goal of providing bathroom access to a member of his family who was faced with that challenge.)

Maybe eight years ago, I attended a seminar about building energy-efficient housing systems. One of the "Takeaways" that I still recall today is how stupid it is to run supply or return air conditioning ducts in non-air conditioned spaces (such as attics).

No kidding!! I felt like an absolute idiot after I built our current home and did not insist on slab-based ductwork. Our ducts are in the attic and I loathe it.

Now, that said, I know that some regions of the country (parts of Texas, maybe?) are starting to impose stronger codes on home foundations, in particular looking at post-tensioned concrete slab foundations. That's where they run steel cables through the slab, mechanically tension them after the slab is poured, and then lock them off. It makes the foundations significantly stronger, but the downside is that it mandates attic-based ductwork.

RM, I remember that early foam stuff going in years ago, but then they had the off-gassing problem and the stuff was pulled/remade. Didn't they have some of the same kinds of problems with the first kinds of adhesives used to make the big sheets of OSB?

I can’t tell you exactly what it is per square foot, but it’s very light. It’s about like a square foot of syrofome.

Oh yeah, the stuff is nearly weightless. You can buy small cans of the stuff at retail, and I've used it to close up a gap on the outside part of my house between the brick and an eave that BEES were using to make a home, and sprayed that puppy shut after I got a bee expert to take care of them. It was almost freakish to see this liquid spray on to a surface, watch it contemplate its navel for a couple of seconds, then FOOOMM...it's like a can of root beer exploded. The stuff filled the entire cavity, and all I had to do was trim the excess. I bet if you pulled out a section from a framed wall, which would be about 15" wide and about 96" tall, wouldn't even weigh 3 lbs.

"Absolute Idiot"? . . .
So . . . How about a guy who doesn't really understand the cost/value benefits of dealing with "invisible" light and owns part of two vehicles that both have basic black paint schemes? Plus isn't totally convinced that three years down the line the EPA won't demand that all of your SprayFoam insulation won't have to be removed no matter how harmless it actually is? =)

FYI: Under-slab ducts are subject to the vagaries of weather conditions, mostly due to improper addressing, by developers and builders, of natural and unnatural occurances involving either a surplus or deficit of rain and ineffective measure related to drainage. (Under-slab ducts flood and rust. Really. They do. =)

Actually, I think that the root cause of most of these problem are Architects/Designers who are heavy and light on Imagination and Practicality. Not to mention Salesmanship. =)

P.S.: There were concerns about "active" clay soils (in Texas and Oklahoma) for example way back before '82 when I bought an expensive book about "Foundation Design Basics". The book had an entire section about the drawbacks and benefits of Post-Tensioned Slabs. So this isn't a "new" issue. It's about "failing to learn from the mistakes of the past (and not living long enough to make them all yourself =)". HWTJ might like that book. It had a lot of graphs. =) Just kidding, amigo . . . Yet, I wonder, do reflective roofs contribute to global warming . . .=)

FYI: Under-slab ducts are subject to the vagaries of weather conditions, mostly due to improper addressing, by developers and builders, of natural and unnatural occurances involving either a surplus or deficit of rain and ineffective measure related to drainage. (Under-slab ducts flood and rust. Really. They do. =)

Semi-funny story in that vein: Our previous house had slab based ductwork and part of the refrigerant line from the AC was in the slab. Moved in during the winter, so had no reason to use the AC; first time I turned it on, hot air. Hot air. And more hot air. House was under builder's warranty, so the AC co came out and inspected it, and discovered that the concrete guys had inadvertently plunged a shovel into the copper refrigerant line and crushed it. So they had to run a new line just beneath the sheetrock and above the stemwall.

I lived in that house for eight years and the ductwork was clean as a whistle when we sold it - a photo inspection of the ductwork was part of the buyer requirements. Now, on the other hand, my mom's house is pushing 40 years old, and she's already had to cover up two outlets because sand and even some moisture started blowing in, although I'm not sure that isn't part of some foundation shifting going on. Not sure.

Another reason I'd like to throttle the guys who put in the AC in our current house - ALL, repeat, ALL the air registers are located incorrectly. Rather than placing them near the region of greatest heat loss/gain (typically near a window), they stuck them in what appear to be arbitrary locations in each room. The register in our bedroom is just inside the door, which is not three feet away from the big return duct. You can literally feel a gust of air from beneath our bedroom door as the ductwork tries to pull in that air I've paid so dearly to cool. We've taken to plugging an old towel at the bottom of the door. Same thing in the kids bedrooms, vents nowhere near the windows, along with two arbitrary vents in the middle of our living room - again, nowhere near the windows. I was uneducated on all this until I had some work done one day, and the guy asked me "Who did your AC on this house" I didn't recall, but he offered, "well, they've really screwed up the placement of all your air registers, and used the wrong kinds of vents." He then gave me a 25-cent education on how they're supposed to be placed, and went room to room and showed me how wrong all the vents were. Said he'd never seen anything like it. It simultaneously infuriated and embarrassed me that I didn't know better. I consider myself to be a bit better educated about the details of home building than the average person might be, but this little bit of info made me feel really stupid in a hurry.

LOL on the EPA coming in and demanding spray foam be removed "no matter how harmless it is"...would be a funny idea if I didn't think it were possible :)

No kidding!! I felt like an absolute idiot after I built our current home and did not insist on slab-based duct work. Our ducts are in the attic and I loathe it.
We built our house 5 years ago and went away from slab based ducting due to our experience with it at the old house. We had a pipe burst one evening while we were out and when we returned there was water running down our driveway and about 2" of water covering the whole downstairs. The short version is this, the water in the duct work leaked into the sand under the slab causing it to shift around some. 5 years later we were noticing some cracks around some doors and thought we'd have it looked at by one of the foundation repair companies. Imagine our surprise when he told us we had no foundation problems but our slab was sinking in the center of the house (along the main trunk of the ducting), something akin to a taco shell. He informed us that with the flooding, our insurance company should have had us on the lookout for this kind of settling since our ducting was flooded. We had this confirmed by a structural engineer and the 9 month battle with our insurance company began. After $36,000 worth of pier and repair work, we opted for no slab based duct work in this house.

Ugh, Wambo, what a horrible story! Sorry you had to go through that.

Certainly don't blame you one bit for being snakebit re slab ductwork based on that, but if I had it to do over again, I'd still put my ducts in the slab.

I can't help but wonder if in your case perhaps you had a poor grade on which your slab was poured. I mean, think about it; it would take an astonishing volume of water to erode the sand around a leaking duct, but for it to shift so much that it caused the slab to *fail* almost has to suggest that the grade on which the slab was poured was really sandy/loamy or shallow to begin with.

Reason that occurs to me is that I know of a development near where I used to live, and the developer basically backfilled a dump with some topsoil for an entire street of houses. I knew that was a horrendous place to build a house because, over time, that fill would erode and fail just as you've described. Wonder if there was something just below grade that the water exacerbated in your case...

Isn't homeownership fun? :)

I was recently told by a green building architect that new homes should never insulate just above the ceiling but should always insulate just below the roof/shingles.

Actually we were in pretty much clay soil. That's why we thought it might be foundation failure. The last thing my insurance wanted to do, after 6 expert opinions (5 of which were their experts), was to drill a hole in the center of our slab and take a 20' core sample from beneath the house. After 9 months and 6 other "experts" agreeing they should pay the claim, I'd had enough. It seemed like a last ditch effort to avoid paying the claim. That's pretty much when I threatened to bring my attorney into it and they agreed to pay for the repairs. All the "experts" agreed the damage was from the flooding and it wasn't that uncommon (first time I'd ever heard of it) when your under slab ducting floods and isn't sealed well enough. Live and learn.
Back to the original topic, a friend put in the ridge vents years ago, when they were first becoming popular. He had them replaced at his first re-roofing because they allowed snow to blow into his attic space. I was told that they made a different design, for areas with more snow fall than we have, that didn't have that problem. Don't know if that is still true or if they have gone to the snow proof design exclusively. I haven't heard anybody complain about it recently.

I was recently told by a green building architect that new homes should never insulate just above the ceiling but should always insulate just below the roof/shingles.

Interesting idea, and it does tend to jibe with the spray foam concept, and even the radiant barrier roof decking idea. In a general sense, though, insulating exclusively under the shingles would make some sense if you have a completely sealed attic cavity. The problems I see with it even in that situation is heat loss through nothing but sheet rock during the winter months. If you have any kind of ventilation in such an attic, you introduce heat in the summer, and that creates a problem for the occupant area of the building below the ceiling.

Interesting information!

(If you will allow me a curmudgeonly moment . . ? thank you)

If by "green building architect" you mean "new and inexperienced" then the idea of "never insulate just above the ceiling" makes sense. Especially if you want to pay to have all of the cubic footage in your attic heated and cooled. On the other hand if the intended meaning (of just) was "never insulate ONLY above the ceiling, but ALSO between the rafters, under the decking" then the architect would just be Green, in the Pragmatically Correct sense of the term (just). =)

No kidding!! I felt like an absolute idiot after I built our current home and did not insist on slab-based ductwork. Our ducts are in the attic and I loathe it.



But my contractor said water might get in the ductwork if placed in slab.

Spray foam will increase a home’s value. If I ever move to a different house it will be a mandatory requirement for me.
I had a retro fit spray foam job done just over a year ago and I like it very much.

Sorry but no.

There has not proved to be any difference in the market value of a spray foam insulated home & a more traditional method of insulation.

Sounds like spray foam industry propaganda

But my contractor said water might get in the ductwork if placed in slab.

It's definitely a risk, and we've had someone in this thread have that problem in a very extreme fashion, but most contractors IMHO "sell" this issue in a means to minimize their foundation preparation costs. It's cheaper to throw up a stemwall and/or forms and pour in a slab than it is to have contractors come in on separate occasions to lay out slab ductwork before the base is poured. IN practical terms, I personally consider the leaking ductwork risk to be low. Personal opinion, of course, but as I said, were I building new again, I'd still find that risk worth it.

Sorry but no.

There has not proved to be any difference in the market value of a spray foam insulated home & a more traditional method of insulation.

Sounds like spray foam industry propaganda

Hmmm...there may not be any statistical data backing up an increase in value, but I believe that will come. I also know I'd probably be willing to pay a bit more up front for a spray-foamed home than a comparable conventionally insulated home because of the long-term energy expense savings. My co-worker who just built a 3K sq ft home with a spray-foamed attic is looking at monthly electric bills of something around $75-$100 a month, meaning that delta he paid for that foam is going to be paid back in terms of months, and that has to translate to a value proposition at the retail level eventually.

SoonerDave,
Since your house didn't have vents on top, did you see any ill-effects in the attic, other than the heat itself? Is the wood on your soffits in good shape? I've been reading a lot on attics and such lately because I have my own set of problems with ventilation. It's disgusting that a builder would leave off the vents. Attic ventilation is not new technology by any means.

Sorry but no.

There has not proved to be any difference in the market value of a spray foam insulated home & a more traditional method of insulation.

Sounds like spray foam industry propaganda Since when has lower utility bills and increased comfort not been a selling point?

Lower utility bills, a stronger structure, lower sound levels = intrinsic values of comfort and certain amounts of monetary value.
Now rather or not people fully recognize either is another story. I believe as more people understand the advantages, values will increase to a point where nobody will question that spray foam is more economical over the long run and more comfortable.

SoonerDave,
Since your house didn't have vents on top, did you see any ill-effects in the attic, other than the heat itself? Is the wood on your soffits in good shape? I've been reading a lot on attics and such lately because I have my own set of problems with ventilation. It's disgusting that a builder would leave off the vents. Attic ventilation is not new technology by any means.

Soffits are all in good shape. Walked around and took a look at each one. I saw nothing in the attic that would suggest to me there had been heat-related damage.

I get a quote from an insulation contractor tomorrow on blowing in a few fresh inches in the attic. Really not sure what to expect on that. I think I have some voids that need to be filled, and know I lost some over my living room area when I punched my foot through the ceiling a LONG time ago while moving a coax TV cable from one wall to another. Never have thought my kids rooms were "right," and I may be calling an HVAC contractor to inspect my ductwork, ensure there are no rips or broken seals.

Just make sure the guy doesn't blow the insulation over your soffit vents. I have a feeling that's what they did when they built my house. It's gonna get ugly when I go up there and try to sort it all out, and I really don't feel like crawling around in the attic when it's a hundred outside. Where is October when you need it? :-)

Just make sure the guy doesn't blow the insulation over your soffit vents. I have a feeling that's what they did when they built my house. It's gonna get ugly when I go up there and try to sort it all out, and I really don't feel like crawling around in the attic when it's a hundred outside. Where is October when you need it? :-)

Ohhh yeah. Already thought of that. I've ID'd all the vents, so when the time comes I'll make sure that's part of the deal.

Since when has lower utility bills and increased comfort not been a selling point?

Lower utility bills, a stronger structure, lower sound levels = intrinsic values of comfort and certain amounts of monetary value.
Now rather or not people fully recognize either is another story. I believe as more people understand the advantages, values will increase to a point where nobody will question that spray foam is more economical over the long run and more comfortable.

Didn't say it MIGHT not be a selling point.

But are people going to pay you more for your house than a similar house without the spray foam? Not normally. Now they might buy your house first for the same/similar money.

But that is not increasing the value of the spray foam home

Didn't say it MIGHT not be a selling point.

But are people going to pay you more for your house than a similar house without the spray foam? Not normally. Now they might buy your house first for the same/similar money.

But that is not increasing the value of the spray foam homeNot all value is about money.
Value can also be about increased comfort. Sometimes the amounts of comfort can influence the type of vehicle we drive or the location of a home we buy. The spray foam blocks out sound better than conventional insulation. But common sense says the monetary value goes up as the number of selling points increases.
I could have also bought a conventional heat and air system but because I could increase my comfort levels at lower operating cost I chose to install a geothermal heat and air system. I have it set on 71 degrees right now.
If ever build or move, foam insulation and a geothermal heat and air system will be minimal requirement because of the value I place on comfort.
But I am pretty sure the monetary values of foam will be better recognized as energy prices increases and the hazards of black mold and bugs in covenantal insulation are better understood.

A DYS +1 soffit vent tip.

If you are concerned about a blocked soffit vent because of insulation or something else an easy way to check on this is to have someone hold a trouble light on the outside shining it up into the vent. Get very close to the vent and use a ladder if needed.
Someone inside the attic should check and see how much light shines though. Obviously if no or very little light shines though you may have a problem that needs attention.

Depending on the attic it might be best to do this after dark. It would sure be cooler this time of year.;)

Not all value is about money.
Value can also be about increased comfort. Sometimes the amounts of comfort can influence the type of vehicle we drive or the location of a home we buy. The spray foam blocks out sound better than conventional insulation. But common sense says the monetary value goes up as the number of selling points increases.
I could have also bought a conventional heat and air system but because I could increase my comfort levels at lower operating cost I chose to install a geothermal heat and air system. I have it set on 71 degrees right now.
If ever build or move, foam insulation and a geothermal heat and air system will be minimal requirement because of the value I place on comfort.
But I am pretty sure the monetary values of foam will be better recognized as energy prices increases and the hazards of black mold and bugs in covenantal insulation are better understood.

Fair enough.

But when one says it increases value of your home, most people would think of it from a money point of view. You are speaking from your own value system, which is fine.

Builders & developers have learned around here that while "green" building looks good the marketing materials, it doesn't translate into home buyers being willing to pay more.

FYI: Under-slab ducts are subject to the vagaries of weather conditions, mostly due to improper addressing, by developers and builders, of natural and unnatural occurances involving either a surplus or deficit of rain and ineffective measure related to drainage. (Under-slab ducts flood and rust. Really. They do. =)


Yes, I am all too familiar with this as well! But I must be luckier than some because my attic ventilation fans are going on 40 years old and I haven't replaced a motor yet.

A DYS +1 soffit vent tip.

If you are concerned about a blocked soffit vent because of insulation or something else an easy way to check on this is to have someone hold a trouble light on the outside shining it up into the vent. Get very close to the vent and use a ladder if needed.
Someone inside the attic should check and see how much light shines though. Obviously if no or very little light shines though you may have a problem that needs attention.

Depending on the attic it might be best to do this after dark. It would sure be cooler this time of year.;)

Thank you. I like this idea.

This is kind of on subject. When we replace our current roof im going back to the older style turbine vents.

At different times in our lives we have lived with both and now currently have the 'newer' style powered fan vents. They do work pretty well but during times of the year like we are having now they run the majority of the day even set at 120 degrees - I've hooked mine up to a timer so it runs from 2-8pm instead of nonstop. They also make alot of noise, (you can hear a slight hum inside the house if you are listening to it, by no means will you have to turn up the tv) and the money they save you in A/C cost are over powered what it cost to run both of them.

The turbines work well for the weather in oklahoma because we always have wind but you do have the inconvience of climbing onto your room and covering them during the winter.

This is kind of on subject. When we replace our current roof im going back to the older style turbine vents.

At different times in our lives we have lived with both and now currently have the 'newer' style powered fan vents. They do work pretty well but during times of the year like we are having now they run the majority of the day even set at 120 degrees - I've hooked mine up to a timer so it runs from 2-8pm instead of nonstop. They also make alot of noise, (you can hear a slight hum inside the house if you are listening to it, by no means will you have to turn up the tv) and the money they save you in A/C cost are over powered what it cost to run both of them.

The turbines work well for the weather in oklahoma because we always have wind but you do have the inconvience of climbing onto your room and covering them during the winter.

I would not cover your turbines in the winter. Things I've read say not to do that. Do a little research on that before you go to all that trouble each winter.

I would not cover your turbines in the winter. Things I've read say not to do that. Do a little research on that before you go to all that trouble each winter.

Agree completely. Just about everything I've read says never to cover turbines. My mom has two turbines and she's never covered them, and had no problems.

i recently moved and just got the largest electric bill i've ever paid... the upstairs ac zone struggles to to keep the house at 83 during the day even with the thermostat at 79. i don't know if it's the unit or faulty insulating but i'm crossing my fingers that the home warranty will cover this.

-M

I know many people say not to do it, but IMHO if you have good air circulation from soffit vents, since it’s so dry and not usually that cold in the winter in OKC covering the turbine vents is usually ok. It’s the buildup of humidity and resulting condensation that causes most problems IMHO. When humidity becomes excessive the condensation can freeze on the bottom side of a roof and rain down. I had always blocked my turbine vents in the winter because I didn’t want blowing snow coming into the attic via a frozen turbine. When l lived on the high plains I knew of examples where snow did blow down frozen turbines and did cause damage. They can also make a very annoying noise when partly frozen.

A Turbine vent covering tip for those who hate roof climbing.
Several years ago when I found out that my then 82 year old father was still climbing up into his attic and walking a decent distance to plug off his wind turbine vents from the inside I devised a better system for him. I fastened a board onto hinges that would close covering the vent. Then I ran 100lb fishing line though eye hooks from the covering board to near a pull down ladder. I put about 10 pounds of weight on the end of the fishing line to hold the covering board shut. I nailed a 2 x4 from the rafters to fasten a place to let the weight hang from. My dad could do everything needed after only climbing a few steps.
Before my dad started covering his turbine vents when the temps were about 10 degrees my dad had frozen pipes. After he started covering his turbines he had no frozen pipes even with -10 degree temps.

I also did this for a time at my own home the inside of my attic was so tall that I actually had to haul a short step ladder into my attic and build a small platform to place the ladder on.:hammer:

Homeowners in northern climes always ensure that their attics are properly ventilated in the winter, and for several good reasons. That's a lesson for us in warmer areas.

OG+E will conduct an energy audit if you ask them, and they'll make recommendations for energy savings. More information by calling 553-3393 or clicking here: http://oge.com/residential-customers/products-and-services/Pages/PositiveEnergyHome.aspx

I would not cover your turbines in the winter. Things I've read say not to do that. Do a little research on that before you go to all that trouble each winter.

Point taken. When I was a kid i remember my parents covering ours but i havent in the houses ive had since. I do appreciate info like this, its always good to dispell old wives tales we grew up with.

This is all timely, thanks for starting the thread. We've been considering adding a ridge vent - we've got a long, low ridge. Anyone have any ballpark notion of how much that sort of thing costs?

OG+E will conduct an energy audit if you ask them, and they'll make recommendations for energy savings. More information by calling 553-3393 or clicking here: http://oge.com/residential-customers/products-and-services/Pages/PositiveEnergyHome.aspx

I wouldn't object to doing such a thing, but my concern is whether it's a real energy audit, or are they just going to send someone to the house, run a spray hose on the fins of my compressor, tell me to switch to CFL bulbs, put in some insulation, and install a heat pump? If that's all it is -generic recommendations- I'll pass.

If I want to enlist someone to perform a true energy audit, I'm going to want to know where my heat loss is, preferably via thermal imaging of all sides of the house; I want my ductwork thoroughly leak-checked and assessed (including supply and return vent placement), specific things that help me understand why my A/C seems to be responsible for my home consuming about 50% more electricity than other homes of comparable size...


Edit: I called OG&E today about their home energy audit, and it is precisely as I feared - a very superficial treatment where a rep comes to your home, spends about an hour looking around your lights and appliances, and offers the virtues of CFL bulbs, sealing electrical and switch plates, and adding insulation. The man on the phone read off a list of things they charge $50 for..."starts A/C..checks for user comfort levels...measures temperature at vent...checks for proper operation of thermostat...replace air filters..." Entirely superficial in my book. No thermal imaging test, no blower-door test, no real assessment of actual energy use, heat/cooling loss, just very top-level stuff. Disappointed, but not surprised :)

Edit: I called OG&E today about their home energy audit, and it is precisely as I feared - a very superficial treatment where a rep comes to your home, spends about an hour looking around your lights and appliances, and offers the virtues of CFL bulbs, sealing electrical and switch plates, and adding insulation. The man on the phone read off a list of things they charge $50 for..."starts A/C..checks for user comfort levels...measures temperature at vent...checks for proper operation of thermostat...replace air filters..." Entirely superficial in my book. No thermal imaging test, no blower-door test, no real assessment of actual energy use, heat/cooling loss, just very top-level stuff. Disappointed, but not surprised :)

I hate to be that guy...wait...no i dont...

Instead of complaining why dont YOU do it. Go get a temp gun from harbor freight, go around the edges of your window to see if they are leaking, then use the gun and also read the difference between the walls and the windows, make a plan on how to cover them up with heavy drapes or replace them with energy efficient ones, use the gun to go along your doors and other spaces in the house to tell if cold air is escaping, get up in your attic and run you hand along your ductwork to see if you feel cold air from leaks and patch the leaks. The go pick up a killawatt meter and go around and test all of your appliances to see how much electricity they use - or even better just unplug everything and anything that you dont use on a daily basis - or do what i did and put alot of things on timers and power strips (tv, cable box, surround sound, xbox, blu ray) and only have power running to the surge protector when im home from 4-10pm each night...

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-laser-thermometer-96451.html

http://www.p3international.com/products/special/p4400/p4400-ce.html

I mean its 50 bucks, what type of work do you expect them to do for 50 bucks?

With all that said I have a 2000 sqft house that we keep at 75 degrees (4pm-8am)(and also all day 1-2 days a during the week since my wife is able to telework some days) and all day/night on weekends and our bills have been about $130-150

I hate to be that guy...wait...no i dont...

Instead of complaining why dont YOU do it. Go get a temp gun from harbor freight, go around the edges of your window to see if they are leaking, then use the gun and also read the difference between the walls and the windows, make a plan on how to cover them up with heavy drapes or replace them with energy efficient ones, use the gun to go along your doors and other spaces in the house to tell if cold air is escaping, get up in your attic and run you hand along your ductwork to see if you feel cold air from leaks and patch the leaks. The go pick up a killawatt meter and go around and test all of your appliances to see how much electricity they use - or even better just unplug everything and anything that you dont use on a daily basis - or do what i did and put alot of things on timers and power strips (tv, cable box, surround sound, xbox, blu ray) and only have power running to the surge protector when im home from 4-10pm each night...

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-laser-thermometer-96451.html

http://www.p3international.com/products/special/p4400/p4400-ce.html

I mean its 50 bucks, what type of work do you expect them to do for 50 bucks?

With all that said I have a 2000 sqft house that we keep at 75 degrees (4pm-8am)(and also all day 1-2 days a during the week since my wife is able to telework some days) and all day/night on weekends and our bills have been about $130-150

And that's precisely my point, William - I understand that I can do a few of those things you mention, but you illustrate for me my problem. I believe I have a problem of a several hundred dollar per month expense. Yes, I can go measure window differences and install a blind (as I've already done in two windows, and replaced a 5050 kitchen window), but I don't think if I perfected every window and seal in the house that I'd drop my costs by the difference I think is at hand. The comments about OG&E wasn't so much a criticism of their offering (although something sold as an "audit" should IMHO be more in-depth than what they offer), but that it was not the detail I need for what I believe to be a ducting/HVAC design problem, and one I suspect will cost me a couple thousand dollars (minimum) to fix.

As far as crawling in the attic goes, I have to admit to my own limitations. I crawled around my attic years ago to move a coax cable TV line, and found myself anything but sure footed crawling across the rafters. I fell, put my leg through the ceiling, poured out a pile of insulation on the floor of the house and had to have someone come out and patch the ceiling. (My son, who was only four or five at the time, thought it was hilarious).

As for consumption measurements, I have used the myOGEPower.com site to track kWh usage, and had a great minimal use picture on one particular Sunday we were not at home for the great part of the day and early evening. With the A/C off, all the lights out, and only the fridge and deep-freeze running (along with one computer), we were steady-state at .82 kW/hr. The big kicker? When the A/C came back on later that night. That means I have to figure out why the AC runs as long as it does - insulation, ducting, both, or are other factors involved? And when I see/hear three different A/C types tell me my ductwork is screwed up, that peaks my curiosity a bunch.

We'll see. Maybe that trip to Harbor Freight is in my future, but I've got to at least explore the A/C issue in the meantime.

Penny: Ridge vents themselves aren't very expensive (and I'm referring here to the ones labeled "Cobra" I think by GAF). It's the labor involved in installing them correctly (the roof sheathing/decking needs to be cut back some at the ridge, the vent sections need to be slightly spaced for heat expansion, you want to be sure that the ventilation area they create balances with the intake area from your soffit vents, etc.) Still, I think they are definitely the way to go with the sort of ridge lines you described. Oh! And you may have to live with a little unsightly sawdust on your roof for a little while until the wind and/or rain gets rid of it. =)

This is a very useful thread that will benefit many people. I look forward to reading what your solution is, Dave, and I will also report how I fixed my rotting soffit problem when I get it all figured out. I'm waiting for some tools, knowledge, and cooler weather.

I also intend to make some purchases from Harbor Freight online. (good recommendation from above poster).

In the meantime, have any of you noticed how many vents are up on top of the houses as you drive around town? I am hyper-aware of this now, and the difference between various homes is quite amazing. I see houses with two, and I see houses with six. Builders really do vary. I even think I saw a couple of those solar powered vents this morning. I'm jealous! ;-)

Anyway, I'm learning a whole lot more about houses and construction than I wanted, that's for sure.

I'm waiting for some tools, knowledge, and cooler weather.

I also intend to make some purchases from Harbor Freight online. (good recommendation from above poster).

Anyway, I'm learning a whole lot more about houses and construction than I wanted, that's for sure.

I hear that Home Depot is mailing out 10% Discount Coupons--plus 12 mos. No Interest--on Knowledge.
BTW: It's smart not to go up in an attic this time of year. That would be more like wisdom than knowledge.

As far as crawling in the attic goes, I have to admit to my own limitations. I crawled around my attic years ago to move a coax cable TV line, and found myself anything but sure footed crawling across the rafters. I fell, put my leg through the ceiling, poured out a pile of insulation on the floor of the house and had to have someone come out and patch the ceiling. (My son, who was only four or five at the time, thought it was hilarious).



I have attic limitations as well.
I built a cat walk out of mostly cheap scrap 2X10’s from Home Depot.
I keep lose lumber in my attic to move around making a walking path from the stationary cat walk as needed.

The most difficult part of the project was when I needed to build 2 bridges over valleys in my attic.
If you are going to be doing a lot of work in your attic or be living in your home for a long time building a cat walk may be worth considering.
I am told that at least some new construction has plywood nearly everywhere in the attic?

If you are going to be doing a lot of work in your attic or be living in your home for a long time building a cat walk may be worth considering.
I am told that at least some new construction has plywood nearly everywhere in the attic?

Agreed. I decked out a considerable amount of our attic to turn it into useable space. Word to the wise, DONT GET PARTICLE BOARD or the really cheap plywood, too much heat/moisture up there and it will get extremely soft. I made the mistake of some particle board in a small section so i doubled it up and i wouldnt consider even walking on it right now - chances are it will probably need to be replaced within a year or so.