OG&E has their SmartHours pricing they essentially want everyone on. The rates are:


Low: 4.5 cents per kilowatt hour
Standard: 11.3 cents
High: 23 cents
Critical: 46 cents


Typically these only impact hours between 2 and 7 PM CT.

Today, June 26, will be the first "High" day for those on the program. We've only had 1 or 2 "Standard" days since the pricing kicked in June 1st. OG&E did just put out that between 3 and 6PM today they are going to bill at the "Critical" rate. So be sure to plan ahead and power things off to minimize exposure to the extreme rate.

Thinking I am glad I elected the flat rate fee instead.

Thinking I am glad I elected the flat rate fee instead.



Me too.

Me too.

Me three.

But we do continually watch our detailed online usage and try and make adjustments since I assume the days of flat rate may end or be addicted up soon.

Me three.

But we do continually watch our detailed online usage and try and make adjustments since I assume the days of flat rate may end or be addicted up soon.



You might want to check into Smart Hours....it CAN save you a ton. We were on the flat rate and i think it was 8.4 cents per kilwhr, on the smart hours it goes to 4.5 all day except 2-7 M-F and 4.5 cents all weekend long, regardless of how hot it gets. We blast our air in the mornings to pre-cool and then shut it off (actually its programmed) from 2-7. Never gets too hot, even in this weather.

We have three kids and my wife and I both office out of our 2400 sq ft home. Yesterday, we spent a TOTAL of $2.88 on electricity for the entire 24 hour period. The temp never got above 79-degrees in our house.

Paule - do you mind telling me what program you've got setup in your thermostat? Times, temps, etc. We're very similar to you, but our total yesterday was $5.88. Thanks!

So Paule is the one who is skewing those "Efficient" user numbers that I always grumble at. :)

Glad I bought a geothermal heat and air unit.

I Hardly ever even think about the electrical bill and I put the thermostat where ever I feel comfortable.
Usually that’s about 73 in day and 71 at night.
I bought a ClimateMaster (LXU)
They are based in OKC and manufacture some of the very best geothermal units in the world.
http://residential.climatemaster.com/about-us

You might want to check into Smart Hours....it CAN save you a ton. We were on the flat rate and i think it was 8.4 cents per kilwhr, on the smart hours it goes to 4.5 all day except 2-7 M-F and 4.5 cents all weekend long, regardless of how hot it gets. We blast our air in the mornings to pre-cool and then shut it off (actually its programmed) from 2-7. Never gets too hot, even in this weather.

We have three kids and my wife and I both office out of our 2400 sq ft home. Yesterday, we spent a TOTAL of $2.88 on electricity for the entire 24 hour period. The temp never got above 79-degrees in our house.

Smart hours is a scam, its literally the same energy scam that Enron ran. The shuffle around power to create 'crisis' or maintenance so it will go into peak pricing at their whim. Last year they had over 20 peak pricing EVENTS (where electricity is 10x the cost of the normal cost). As it says on the ONG website those peak pricing events can happen at any time and can last for as long as they want them too.

Dont get me wrong, if you work at home and run your a/c 24/7 then go for it since you have some feasibility to schedule around their pricing plan. But for the average working person getting home from 3-5pm each evening its hard to justify not using your a/c, computer, dishwasher, washer, dryer, tv, cable box (or any of the other things it suggest) until 7pm while its 105 degrees outside.

For me i'll just leave everything off during the day and set our programable thermostat to come on 15 minutes before I get home and call it good.

The 1st year is a probationary period in that if your bill comes to more than it would have had you remained on the old plan they'll refund the difference. You can cancel for any reason and should if the program doesn't save you money. Why not sign up?

You might want to check into Smart Hours....it CAN save you a ton. We were on the flat rate and i think it was 8.4 cents per kilwhr, on the smart hours it goes to 4.5 all day except 2-7 M-F and 4.5 cents all weekend long, regardless of how hot it gets. We blast our air in the mornings to pre-cool and then shut it off (actually its programmed) from 2-7. Never gets too hot, even in this weather.

We have three kids and my wife and I both office out of our 2400 sq ft home. Yesterday, we spent a TOTAL of $2.88 on electricity for the entire 24 hour period. The temp never got above 79-degrees in our house.

I am interested in your settings as well. We are often gone in the mornings so I hate to pre-cool too much while the house is empty. I've had it turned off from about 9-noon or 12:30 and then set to pre-cool until 2pm. However, today (with the critical peek period) it got up to 88 in here from what I can tell. We weren't home in the early evening, but my energy usage sky rocketed and with the conservation setting it wouldn't have come on unless it was that hot. I used almost an entire kw hour from 6-7pm! Anyway, I would love some suggestions.

The 1st year is a probationary period in that if your bill comes to more than it would have had you remained on the old plan they'll refund the difference. You can cancel for any reason and should if the program doesn't save you money. Why not sign up?

Like most energy company scams they can afford to run a longer term scam since they have a captive audience. Enron ran for years before they got so greedy with 'Peak' usage until people finally caught on. They get people to go to the program and after the first year they raise the prices or the number of critical days. Right now they are trying to rope people in to gain public acceptance.


California's population increased by 13% during the 1990s. The state did not build any new major power plants during that time, although existing in-state power plants were expanded and power output was increased nearly 30% from 1990 to 2001.

In the summer of 2001 a drought in the northwest states reduced the amount of hydroelectric power available to California. Though at no point during the crisis was California's sum of actual electric-generating capacity plus out-of-state supply less than demand, California's energy reserves were low enough that during peak hours the private industry which owned power-generating plants could effectively hold the State hostage by shutting down their plants for "maintenance" in order to manipulate supply and demand. These critical shutdowns often occurred for no other reason than to force California's electricity grid managers into a position where they would be forced to purchase electricity on the "spot market", where private generators could charge astronomical rates. Even though these rates were semi-regulated and tied to the price of natural gas, the companies (which included Enron and Reliant Energy) controlled the supply of natural gas as well. Manipulation by the industry of natural gas prices resulted in higher electricity rates that could be charged under the semi-regulations.



Sound familiar?

I signed up for the program, but I haven't yet got the free programmable thermostat. Last billing cycle, I didn't really make any effort to change my use, and I had the cheapest bill of the year at only $51. My house is right at 1000 sq feet, and is about 10 years old so it has decent insulation, but no shade during the day. So far I am very happy with it. Since the super hot past few days I have been turning everything off when I go to work except the ceiling fan (for my dog). I set the thermostat at 80 on the way to work. This billing cycle will be over in 3 days and this bill will only be $71 based on their projection. I love it and can't wait to get the free thermostat!

Well WilliamTell, they did get caught, although it took a full decade for the rulings to really come down on them.

So far, i haven't seen enough of the changes to really say that it's saved me much money. I sweat my butt off when i come home to an 80 degree house when an "Energy Event" is in place though. I've already come to hate that little group of lights on the thermostat...especially the red one.

Another "High" rate day today. I'm sure they will put out another special notice of it being a critical day here soon.

I had to laugh last year when they did a critical day and it was only like 75 outside. I'm sure they made a nice healthy profit that day.

I am interested in your settings as well. We are often gone in the mornings so I hate to pre-cool too much while the house is empty. I've had it turned off from about 9-noon or 12:30 and then set to pre-cool until 2pm. However, today (with the critical peek period) it got up to 88 in here from what I can tell. We weren't home in the early evening, but my energy usage sky rocketed and with the conservation setting it wouldn't have come on unless it was that hot. I used almost an entire kw hour from 6-7pm! Anyway, I would love some suggestions.

79 degrees?!!? No thank you. Thermostat sits on 73degrees here.

Isn't it harder on your a/c to have to cool it down 10 degrees then to just have it cycle normally throughout the day? We're not on smart hours, and I'm just keeping it at 77 during the day and 75 at night, roughly.

Isn't it harder on your a/c to have to cool it down 10 degrees then to just have it cycle normally throughout the day? We're not on smart hours, and I'm just keeping it at 77 during the day and 75 at night, roughly.

I believe it is. I have mine set almost like you. It helps to even power usage since it isn't having to work so hard to catch up.

Also OG&E did declare their critical alert from 4 to 7pm today.

The central a/c at the house I rent is older than dirt and runs all the time to try and keep the house 77 so yesterday I bought an energy efficient window unit and put it in my bedroom. I already have a comfortable chair, TV, DVD player and Wii back there so I was all set. I set the central on 80 and the window unit on 73 and it worked perfectly and was nice and cool.

We keep ours set at 67 all the time and it is still warm in parts of the house.

Also OG&E did declare their critical alert from 4 to 7pm today.

Sounds like a sinister plot to get people out of their houses and into locally-owned (not national chain) restaurants. For dinner.

My house went from 68* at 2pm to 92* at 7pm. It would be nice if my house did not have single pane windows and insulation in the walls would be a plus too.

Our May bill was $68. This is a 2011 built 2200 sf home. The main CH&A is a 5 ton 15 seer heat pump and my workshop has a split mini system that's a 1 ton 20 seer. The hot water heater (total electric here) is a GE 50 gal heat pump style w/a an annual electrical cost of > $200 vs < $500 for a regular electric water heater. Bottom line, the heating and cooling bills in our new home are less expensive than they were in the old home which was less than half this large. We thought about building an ICF home to maximize energy savings but since we'll likely be downsizing into a condo in 5-7 yrs I doubt the extra expense would have paid for itself in that length of time.

I simply view anything marketed so aggressively with a healthy dose of skepticism. OGE wants to make a profit, but they peddle something like "SmartHours" because its going to save money - which, logic would initially suggest, would decrease their revenues. Obviously, however, that's not what they know the end-result to be. They wouldn't be pushing this if they didn't know that, ultimately, they would make more money by doing so.

I've not jumped on this bandwagon. I'll watch my bill, but with both kids and my wife home from school all/most of the summer, the notion of letting the heat ramp up and then mass-cooling later until 2pm or whatever isn't really practical right now. Like I said, I view anything publicized this hard with a great deal of skepticism. I have this sneaking suspicion that the last thing OG&E wants to promote is in my best interests or saving me any money.

I'm somewhat of a skeptic too soonerdave but I read that part of the reason oge wants people to cut back on usage is that they don't want to have to build a new power plant before 2020.

WilliamTell and SoonerDave are spot on. I am amazed that you can put the word 'smart' in front of anything and people will jump on-board - even to the point of letting a company turn off appliances in their own home. I'm curious, would any of you attach a device to your car that an oil company could use to turn your car off if it helped you save gasoline, or priced your gasoline based on the time of day you drive?

I wonder how long a gas station would be allowed to implement peak demand pricing before they were sued by DOJ for price gouging.

New gas sation pricing:
8PM to 6AM - base price
6AM to 9AM - Base price plus 5 cents
9AM to 11AM - base price
11AM to 1PM - base price plus 10 cents
1PM to 4PM - base price
4PM to 8PM - base price plus 15 cents

We can call it smart-gas.

^^^
Perfect!


Isn't it harder on your a/c to have to cool it down 10 degrees then to just have it cycle normally throughout the day? We're not on smart hours, and I'm just keeping it at 77 during the day and 75 at night, roughly.
That was my experience. When I got my 1st place and was having to pay the electric bill, I thought it made since to turn it off or up while I was gone to work, but then it would take it HOURS running nonstop to get it back down to a comfortable level and the end result was a higher bill. I will do it if I am gone on vacation for a week or more, but anything less than a weekend doesn't work. And if returning from vacation, stop by the house, turn it back on and then go to Walmart for a couple of hours, get dinner & see a movie or something similar.

I'm somewhat of a skeptic too soonerdave but I read that part of the reason oge wants people to cut back on usage is that they don't want to have to build a new power plant before 2020.
have heard that too, so they expect folks to prepay for their plant (since it really doesn't cost them any more to produce the electricity needed between the hours of 2 to 7) for something they might or might not have to build??? Absurd!

have heard that too, so they expect folks to prepay for their plant (since it really doesn't cost them any more to produce the electricity needed between the hours of 2 to 7) for something they might or might not have to build??? Absurd!

except the most "smart" hours customers have lower bills ..

Interesting to see the data on that (not taking OG&E at their word)...would also like to know if along with that lower bill they are sitting in a 95 degree house during those hours or not...there was a recent Oklahoman(?) article that stated that under the "smart hours" pricing plan, while the rate would be lower, they could charge you at a much higher rate (like 4 times as much) than under the regular plan. Again, I don't have the specifics, but IIRC it was something like that. Thanks but no thanks.

Interesting to see the data on that (not taking OG&E at their word)...would also like to know if along with that lower bill they are sitting in a 95 degree house during those hours or not...

This^

I find it sort of humorous that people are happy about be priced out of the market. Only in America. Of course your bill goes down for item X if you can't afford to buy item X. I am waiting for a Durant commercial where he says you missed his replay on Sports Center because you brewed a cup of coffee that moring and had to watch your overages. He gets that - but a cup of coffee? That's messed up.

Interesting to see the data on that (not taking OG&E at their word)...would also like to know if along with that lower bill they are sitting in a 95 degree house during those hours or not...there was a recent Oklahoman(?) article that stated that under the "smart hours" pricing plan, while the rate would be lower, they could charge you at a much higher rate (like 4 times as much) than under the regular plan. Again, I don't have the specifics, but IIRC it was something like that. Thanks but no thanks.

Well keep in mind if you try the program this year, you will pay the lower cost of the two pricing plans. This program doesn't make sense for everybody, so they let you try it for a year and see if it is a good fit.

For my June billing period, I made no efforts to change what I did because I forgot I signed up for the program.

June 2012 bill: $53 for 640 kwh. Month long average of .083 per kwh.
June 2011 bill: $75 for 624 kwh. Month long average of .12 per kwh.

So I ended up using more electricity this year and my bill was 29% cheaper.

So far the July bill is going well, and the only thing I do is turn off lights before I leave, and set the thermo to 82. The programmable thermo would help me significantly cut my peak time use, as the AC still cycles on and off all day at 82.

July 2010 bill $105 for 1058 kwh. Month long average of .099 per kwh.
July 2011 bill $111 for 993 kwh. Month long average of .11 per kwh.
July 2012 bill (projected) $72. Cost to date: $61 for 759 kwh. Avg. Of .08 per kwh.

Perhaps somebody a bit more informed than myself could comment about the peak pricing. Since my cost per kwh fluctuated last year, isn't it true that customers NOT on smart hours are subject to the critical rates as well?

OG&E has their SmartHours pricing they essentially want everyone on. The rates are:


Low: 4.5 cents per kilowatt hour
Standard: 11.3 cents
High: 23 cents
Critical: 46 cents


Typically these only impact hours between 2 and 7 PM CT.

Today, June 26, will be the first "High" day for those on the program. We've only had 1 or 2 "Standard" days since the pricing kicked in June 1st. OG&E did just put out that between 3 and 6PM today they are going to bill at the "Critical" rate. So be sure to plan ahead and power things off to minimize exposure to the extreme rate.

yes it isn't all that bad as for my situation we have been on the smart hours plan couple years and the thermostat is set to efficient so don't rack up critical rates. have been saving 75 - over $100 a month the past couple years in the summer and if it gets to hot the kids and I just go in the pool we have so for us its a great deal.

Some has said its a scam and it isn't. it is a preference. I prefer to have a few hours of give a little and save. all I do is set temp to 71 all night and until 2 and it shuts off till 7... usually tops out about 76-78 by 7 on hottest days maybe 80... but the savings are well worth it.

Avoiding having to build new power plants is a good incentive for OG&E, but a better one is not having to buy kilowatts on the spot market from someone else on the grid due to peak demand.

The tariff for those of us not on "smart hours" has three different price scales, based on time of year. (This has been modified very slightly by an interim adjustment of .001633/kwh, effective the first of June.) Base rate is always .084/kwh. June through September, usage over 1400 kwh is billed at .0968. November through April, usage over 600 kwh is billed at .0471. (The monthly Customer Charge, taxes, fees, and whathaveyou are separate.) This tariff dates to 2009, so I expect a rate increase fairly soon.

http://www.oge.com/residential-customers/billing-and-payment/Pages/RateInfo.aspx

Avoiding having to build new power plants is a good incentive for OG&E, but a better one is not having to buy kilowatts on the spot market from someone else on the grid due to peak demand.

http://www.oge.com/residential-customers/billing-and-payment/Pages/RateInfo.aspx

So, despite the comparison of OGE manipulating market figures like Enron:


Smart hours is a scam, its literally the same energy scam that Enron ran. The shuffle around power to create 'crisis' or maintenance so it will go into peak pricing at their whim. Last year they had over 20 peak pricing EVENTS (where electricity is 10x the cost of the normal cost). As it says on the ONG website those peak pricing events can happen at any time and can last for as long as they want them too.

the truth is that by giving incentive to customers to reduce demand & peak-time loads on the grid, OGE is actually taking pro-active steps to avoid scenarios where they would be forced to purchase excess capacity from other electricity companies?

Also - critical periods can only be billed to the customer for a maximum of 120 hours annually. at $ .46/kwh the most a customer could pay for critical peak in a year is $55.20

Fact is, OKC is growing, and our needs for energy are growing. The dramatic increase of new building in the past 5-10 years has resulted in substantially higher energy demands on our electricity infrastructure.

I really like the idea of this program because it rewards those who help reduce demand on our existing infrastructure.

This isn't the same as gas prices fluctuating based on the time you buy. Gasoline is energy, yes, but gasoline is a form of stored energy. It is highly transportable & often made 100's or 1000's of miles from where it is sold. The business model is entirely different. Electricity grids are more like roads in that we all have to use the same infrastructure. Smart Hours is more like paying somebody not to use a crowded highway during rush hour.

So after the 1 year trial period is over, can OG&E raise the 'smart meter' prices? And if they do can you opt back into the old pricing system?

Pricing schedules reflect actual cost of delivery. I don't see why anyone is upset about things that actually cost more actually costing more...

WilliamTell and SoonerDave are spot on. I am amazed that you can put the word 'smart' in front of anything and people will jump on-board - even to the point of letting a company turn off appliances in their own home. I'm curious, would any of you attach a device to your car that an oil company could use to turn your car off if it helped you save gasoline, or priced your gasoline based on the time of day you drive?

I wonder how long a gas station would be allowed to implement peak demand pricing before they were sued by DOJ for price gouging.

New gas sation pricing:
8PM to 6AM - base price
6AM to 9AM - Base price plus 5 cents
9AM to 11AM - base price
11AM to 1PM - base price plus 10 cents
1PM to 4PM - base price
4PM to 8PM - base price plus 15 cents

We can call it smart-gas.

Gas doesn't have different costs based on the time of use. Grid power does.

Remember OG&E was denied the approval to build a new plant they did request. Even though they said they don't need it right now and were planning for the future...Bull****. They were going to just pass that cost on to consumers too. It's the only industry i know of that doesn't have to pay to build things they want/need in order to provide their service. Damn screw job.

Anyway, if you have a smart meter, then you know that you have control over how it interacts with the price changes. You can adjust the level on the meter so that it ignores them, all the way to super pays attention. Meaning, you can use the thermostat as a regular electronic one and have various set points if you want. But you can also (and this is the part that lets you save money) set it so that it adjusts UP your set point on the fly as the energy events come in. I have mine set to one setting over balanced, so mine goes up some when an even occurs. I simply keep the lights off, turn the fans on, take the shirt off. It's bearable but not comfortable. It's about how much you want to save.

Yes it does mean that the ac has to play catch up later, but it does so at a cheaper rate. In those peak hours, with the set point going up, it means your ac doesn't run until you get closer to that point. That means between 2 and 7, you probably START running to maintain around 4 or 5. And the energy event will often run the fan rather than the compressor as well to save. So you have actually saved several hours of peak rate AC time. After 7, when the event clears, the AC does have to catch up, but it's running at a much cheaper rate to do so. AND the air is cooler anyway, so it doesn't have to work as hard to get it back down. Mine catches up by 9pm and it would have been running off any on anyway during those times to maintain. So it's not as though it's running sooo much more than it would have been before. I simply get to make use of the off-peak time to cool rather than peak.

Now, does that equate to a savings of the amount i'm willing to accept given the cost of the uncomfortable heat? I don't know yet. I've only had it in for 2 months now so I haven't seen enough time to compare the monthly cost. We have started waiting until after 7 to start the washing machine and dishwasher though. It's one of those things that helps you be conscious of what you are doing. But all that effort could be for not.

I would LOOOOOVE to be able to slap some solar panels all over my hosue and tell OG&E to screw off. I'd convert my gas stuff to electric at that point and tell ONG to screw off as well. THAT would be an AMAZING savings right there. Too bad the ROI on that is probably longer than i'll be in that house.

I simply keep the lights off, turn the fans on, take the shirt off. It's bearable but not comfortable. It's about how much you want to save.

You can do those things without a smart meter.


I would LOOOOOVE to be able to slap some solar panels all over my hosue and tell OG&E to screw off. I'd convert my gas stuff to electric at that point and tell ONG to screw off as well. THAT would be an AMAZING savings right there. Too bad the ROI on that is probably longer than i'll be in that house.

Cherckout solar leasing. No out of pocket cost to the homeowner to set it up, if you move most services will move it to your new house 1 time for free, or you can transfer the contract to the new owner. You can lock in your current utility bill for 20 years and then own the system at the end of 20 years. With solar leasing you still have to keep OGE but you sell them as much electricity as you use so over the year the net balance is $0.

Remember OG&E was denied the approval to build a new plant they did request. Even though they said they don't need it right now and were planning for the future...Bull****. They were going to just pass that cost on to consumers too. It's the only industry i know of that doesn't have to pay to build things they want/need in order to provide their service. Damn screw job.

Anyway, if you have a smart meter, then you know that you have control over how it interacts with the price changes. You can adjust the level on the meter so that it ignores them, all the way to super pays attention. Meaning, you can use the thermostat as a regular electronic one and have various set points if you want. But you can also (and this is the part that lets you save money) set it so that it adjusts UP your set point on the fly as the energy events come in. I have mine set to one setting over balanced, so mine goes up some when an even occurs. I simply keep the lights off, turn the fans on, take the shirt off. It's bearable but not comfortable. It's about how much you want to save.

Yes it does mean that the ac has to play catch up later, but it does so at a cheaper rate. In those peak hours, with the set point going up, it means your ac doesn't run until you get closer to that point. That means between 2 and 7, you probably START running to maintain around 4 or 5. And the energy event will often run the fan rather than the compressor as well to save. So you have actually saved several hours of peak rate AC time. After 7, when the event clears, the AC does have to catch up, but it's running at a much cheaper rate to do so. AND the air is cooler anyway, so it doesn't have to work as hard to get it back down. Mine catches up by 9pm and it would have been running off any on anyway during those times to maintain. So it's not as though it's running sooo much more than it would have been before. I simply get to make use of the off-peak time to cool rather than peak.

Now, does that equate to a savings of the amount i'm willing to accept given the cost of the uncomfortable heat? I don't know yet. I've only had it in for 2 months now so I haven't seen enough time to compare the monthly cost. We have started waiting until after 7 to start the washing machine and dishwasher though. It's one of those things that helps you be conscious of what you are doing. But all that effort could be for not.

I would LOOOOOVE to be able to slap some solar panels all over my hosue and tell OG&E to screw off. I'd convert my gas stuff to electric at that point and tell ONG to screw off as well. THAT would be an AMAZING savings right there. Too bad the ROI on that is probably longer than i'll be in that house.

do you "pre cool" you house before 2pm?

I also can't help but think if the average American wasn't trying to heat and cool 2,500 sq feet the bill (and demand) wouldn't be as high either. My first house was 1,650 sq feet; I would trade my current house for it right now.

http://simpleurbanliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Chart-of-Average-house-square-feet-300x255.jpg

I also can't help but think if the average American wasn't trying to heat and cool 2,500 sq feet the bill (and demand) wouldn't be as high either. My first house was 1,650 sq feet; I would trade my current house for it right now.

http://simpleurbanliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Chart-of-Average-house-square-feet-300x255.jpg

1,500 right here for the two of us and no need for any larger if its laid out right.

Personally, I'd be fine in about 900 square feet, but the wife says no. I was thinking one of those IKEA display houses!

I have a family of 4 in 1100 SF and we do ok. And that is in a pre-war building with a weird layout. You have to think a little bit harder about how you live and make it a habit of purging excess stuff.

Pricing schedules reflect actual cost of delivery. I don't see why anyone is upset about things that actually cost more actually costing more...

How does it cost them more to give me the same electricity between the hours of 2 and 7 pm than say 1:55 or 7:05? Why can they change the rates by a factor of 10 times (from low, 4.5 cents to high, 46 cents)?

How does it cost them more to give me the same electricity between the hours of 2 and 7 pm than say 1:55 or 7:05? Why can they change the rates by a factor of 10 times (from low, 4.5 cents to high, 46 cents)?

Supply and demand? I dunno.

1,500 right here for the two of us and no need for any larger if its laid out right.

Personally, I'd be fine in about 900 square feet, but the wife says no. I was thinking one of those IKEA display houses!

I am with you. I am ready to see just how small of a house I can get by with - and I don't want a lawn to maintain either. After we sell our current house I would like to buy a vacant lot and see if I can build 2 or 3 row houses on it. Each about 20 feet wide, 35 feet long, and 2 stories. Live in one and sell the other 2.

I don't see how supply and demand applies since they have ample supply...we don't have brown outs...they don't ration

To my point earlier. My mom's window AC unit started blowing out 75 degree air. Temp in the living room was 71. I shut the unit off, unplugged it and cleaned it good. In the hour it took me to do that, the temp in the living room rose 10 degrees (even with another smaller bedroom unit in an adjacent room running. After cleaning and turning the other unit back on, it took just over 3 hours running non-stop to get the living room temp back down that same 10 degrees. Imagine if it had been off for 5 hrs, how much the temp would have risen and how much longer it would have taken to get it comfortably cool again....

I don't see how supply and demand applies since they have ample supply...we don't have brown outs...they don't ration

To my point earlier. My mom's window AC unit started blowing out 75 degree air. Temp in the living room was 71. I shut the unit off, unplugged it and cleaned it good. In the hour it took me to do that, the temp in the living room rose 10 degrees (even with another smaller bedroom unit in an adjacent room running. After cleaning and turning the other unit back on, it took just over 3 hours running non-stop to get the living room temp back down that same 10 degrees. Imagine if it had been off for 5 hrs, how much the temp would have risen and how much longer it would have taken to get it comfortably cool again....

I think the reason it costs more is that they have to bring more power plants online to meet the demand of heavy AC use across the grid. Electricity can't be stored efficiently, so they have to generate it based on instantaneous levels o demand. If you've got an additional power plant running, the additional costs come from having to pay additional staff, buying additional fuel, etc etc etc.

I am by no means a hvac expert, but AC works by removing heat from the air. I think when the house gets above a certain comfortable temp, the AC doesn't work harder, as the AC always removes as much heat as possible. The problem may be that the homes insulation is not sufficient enough to block out additional heat coming in, or the air conditioner can not remove heat as fast as the sun is adding heat to the house. My grandfather used to tell me that if you run the hose on the external radiator, it will help the unit run more efficiently by increasing the amount of heat the radiator removes. Not sure if this is bad for the unit, as doing it long term could potentially cause mineral buildup on the fins.

I also can't help but think if the average American wasn't trying to heat and cool 2,500 sq feet the bill (and demand) wouldn't be as high either. My first house was 1,650 sq feet; I would trade my current house for it right now.

http://simpleurbanliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Chart-of-Average-house-square-feet-300x255.jpg

I agree completely. People buy way way too large of homes these days. Mine is one of the generic looking Ideal Homes. At only 980 sq feet, I have two full bathrooms, and an extra bedroom/office/music studio room. My girlfriend and I live there and we have plenty of space. It has been an excellent house over the past 8 years.

Although, keep in mind that advances in home insulation often make new homes way more energy efficient than older homes. My friend has 1200 sq foot house built in the mid 70s and he uses about twice as much electricity as I do with only one occupant in the home.

I think the reason it costs more is that they have to bring more power plants online to meet the demand of heavy AC use across the grid. Electricity can't be stored efficiently, so they have to generate it based on instantaneous levels o demand. If you've got an additional power plant running, the additional costs come from having to pay additional staff, buying additional fuel, etc etc etc.

I am by no means a hvac expert, but AC works by removing heat from the air. I think when the house gets above a certain comfortable temp, the AC doesn't work harder, as the AC always removes as much heat as possible. The problem may be that the homes insulation is not sufficient enough to block out additional heat coming in, or the air conditioner can not remove heat as fast as the sun is adding heat to the house. My grandfather used to tell me that if you run the hose on the external radiator, it will help the unit run more efficiently by increasing the amount of heat the radiator removes. Not sure if this is bad for the unit, as doing it long term could potentially cause mineral buildup on the fins.

Yes, you should clean the outside unit (condenser) once a year, or pay someone to do it, especially with all the cottonwood trees we have here. It will help it run more efficiently.

Also, a/c units do dual-work: they remove heat while blasting cold air while also removing humidity. That's why it always feels so good to run the a/c on a humid day, even if it's not that hot. It's also helpful to keep mold from growing, since in the spring/summer it could take over pretty easily with warm temps and humid conditions. The furnace only has one job: blast heat.

How does it cost them more to give me the same electricity between the hours of 2 and 7 pm than say 1:55 or 7:05? Why can they change the rates by a factor of 10 times (from low, 4.5 cents to high, 46 cents)?

Because in order to deliver peak power they have to have more total power generation capacity. This results in quite a few generators just sitting around ready to be wound up, which has a significant influence on total costs. If a customer is not part of the group of customers causing that problem then they should be paying less. If a customer IS part of that group that is causing higher rates for everyone they it makes sense to charge them more.

It is pretty clear most people don't know how a power plant works or even how electricity is generated. Here is a question to get everyone thinking. When I turn a light off what happens to the electricity that the light was getting ready use, but didn't because I turned it off?

I don't know if this is true or not so someone correct me if I was misinformed. But I heard that for the most part you aren't actually using much electricity, that it is just being pushed through the device to power it and then back into the grid. So what you are really paying for is the transmission of the power back and forth and not so much the usage????

Larry - electricity doesn't flow unless it is being used. If power comes into your house and leaves, the meter would either slow down or run backwards (which is what happens if you have solar pannels with a grid shpase tie-in).

I think the reason it costs more is that they have to bring more power plants online to meet the demand of heavy AC use across the grid. Electricity can't be stored efficiently, so they have to generate it based on instantaneous levels o demand. If you've got an additional power plant running, the additional costs come from having to pay additional staff, buying additional fuel, etc etc etc.

I am by no means a hvac expert, but AC works by removing heat from the air. I think when the house gets above a certain comfortable temp, the AC doesn't work harder, as the AC always removes as much heat as possible. The problem may be that the homes insulation is not sufficient enough to block out additional heat coming in, or the air conditioner can not remove heat as fast as the sun is adding heat to the house. My grandfather used to tell me that if you run the hose on the external radiator, it will help the unit run more efficiently by increasing the amount of heat the radiator removes. Not sure if this is bad for the unit, as doing it long term could potentially cause mineral buildup on the fins.

This is the reason why its cheaper off-peak. Unlike water in pipelines, electrity is actually lost through resistance and heat as it travels across the lines. So there is a certain amount of electrity that gets lost. Even more so if it doesn't get used.

This is the reason why its cheaper off-peak. Unlike water in pipelines, electrity is actually lost through resistance and heat as it travels across the lines. So there is a certain amount of electrity that gets lost. Even more so if it doesn't get used.

It is the exact opposite, resistance across the grid is pretty constant so if you are powering one light or an entire city, the amount of electricity need to over come the grid resistance is the same. The more electricty in the grid the smaller the percentage of it needed to overcome resistance, thus the cheaper unit cost.

Electricity at peak time is higher because the utility companies are forced by federal law to use more expensive means of electrical generation (solar, wind, etc...). During low usage time most electricity is generated using coal and hydro-electric. It is a man-made crisis.

Also, there is no 'unused' electricity. If electricity isn't used it doesn't get made.

The ultimate goal of the electric company is to keep the frequency the same. When more power is need generators are brought on-line. So long as tghe method of electrical generation is the same the cost per unit is the same. When the coal plant is at max capacity they fire-up the natural gas turbines which cost more to produce the same amount of electricity - and the bill goes up. If there is even more demand they start buying from solar companies which is even more expensive. When demand goes down they turn off the most expensive operating equipment first, and the bill goes down.

That stuff about being forced to use more expensive generation is an out and out lie. Peak power is more expensive because it requires more generation, of any type, to meet demand. This extra generation capacity makes the whole process more expensive than it would be if power demand was flat thought the hours, days and months.

And what was that about the cost of coal versus natural gas?

Larry - electricity doesn't flow unless it is being used. If power comes into your house and leaves, the meter would either slow down or run backwards (which is what happens if you have solar pannels with a grid shpase tie-in).

If the meter is only on the "inflow" point and not the "outflow" point (if such a thing exists)???

Why would they be forced by the Feds to use a more expensive means during peak hours? What if those more expensive means aren't used by a particular company? Why aren't energy companies using the cheapest means to produce the electricity period?


That stuff about being forced to use more expensive generation is an out and out lie. Peak power is more expensive because it requires more generation, of any type, to meet demand. This extra generation capacity makes the whole process more expensive than it would be if power demand was flat thought the hours, days and months.

And what was that about the cost of coal versus natural gas?
So does the utility just fire up these other sources during the hours of 2 to 7 no matter if the demand is really there or not? In other words is it on some automatic control?

That stuff about being forced to use more expensive generation is an out and out lie. Peak power is more expensive because it requires more generation, of any type, to meet demand. This extra generation capacity makes the whole process more expensive than it would be if power demand was flat thought the hours, days and months.

And what was that about the cost of coal versus natural gas?

Why is peak power more expensive to generate?