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venture
05-20-2005, 04:43 PM
Over on airlines they started talking about market size rank based on passengers and compared them to city & MSA rankings. Needless to say OKC came in at 69 on the O&D list while the city pop ranks 29th and MSA 49th. Below OKC on the list there aren't any cities that have a significant hub or focus city operation. The nearest contenders would be Long Beach, CA with JetBlue - but they are slot controlled so that keeps pax numbers down...they came in 93rd O&D, 34th City, and 2nd MSA; also Sanford (Orlando), FL which was 98th O&D, 107th city, and 78th MSA. Sanford has proven to be a great relief airport for MCO and caters to mainly international charters from the UK and a couple niche airlines in the US - TransMeridian and Allegiant.

So lets go larger than OKC...the cities who have hubs/focus city ops (in order): ATL, ORD, LAX, DFW, PHX, DEN, LAS, IAH, MSP, DTW, SFO, EWR, JFK, MIA, SEA, MCO, STL, PHL, CLT, BOS, LGA, CVG, HNL, BWI, SLC, PIT, FLL, MDW and IAD at 29th. Then back up with DCA (32), MEM (36), CLE (38), SJU (39), HOU (45/4/10), IND (46/12/29), DAL (53/8/9), MKE (54/19/27), and ANC (60/66/140).

Cities that don't have either (in order/rank is O&D/City/MSA): SAN (31/7/17), OAK (33/42/5), PDX (34/28/23), SJC (35/11/5), MCI (37/36/26), MSY (40/31/35), SMF (41/41/25), RDU (42/63/41), BNA (43/22/39), SNA (44/56/2), CMH (47/15/33), SAT (48/9/30), BDL (49/135/42), AUS (50/16/38), ONT (51/131/2), ABQ (52/35/62), PBI (55/na/45), OGG (56), PVD (57/121/40), RSW (58/na/95), JAX (59/14/46), BUR (61/243/2), RNO (62/114/121), BUF (63/59/43), OMA (64/45/61), SDF (65/67/50), ORF (66/38/31), TUS (67/30/58), and MHT (68/218/7).

A few of the cities in the second list may be considered focus cities, especially ones with significant Southwest service. However, the point of this is to show there are plenty of cities that have a stronger market than OKC for any type of significant operation.

mranderson
05-31-2005, 11:41 AM
Here is the scoop. As I write this, I am in Manteca, California, a suburb or Stockton. I flew out of Will Rogers Saturday morning, and before I left, I took a close look around the new terminal.

Not ONE gate was unassigned. All 17 had at least one airline assigned to it. So, that means we have 17 full gates and no empty gates. The additional concourse is needed now. Not later.

I will post pictures of the terminals in Oklahoma City, Phoenix and Sacramento when I return.

HKG_Flyer1
05-31-2005, 11:48 AM
Here is the scoop. As I write this, I am in Manteca, California, a suburb or Stockton. I flew out of Will Rogers Saturday morning, and before I left, I took a close look around the new terminal.

Not ONE gate was unassigned. All 17 had at least one airline assigned to it. So, that means we have 17 full gates and no empty gates. The additional concourse is needed now. Not later.

I will post pictures of the terminals in Oklahoma City, Phoenix and Sacramento when I return.

I'm confused, www.flyokc.com only indicates 14 assigned gates, where are the three additional gates and who is using them?

mranderson
05-31-2005, 11:50 AM
I'm confused, www.flyokc.com (http://www.flyokc.com/) only indicates 14 assigned gates, where are the three additional gates and who is using them?

Seeing is believing. I walked the entire area several times and saw every single gate with an airline assigned. We are out of gates. I saw it for myself. Do I need to shoot a picture of every single gate when I land next Monday?

Patrick
05-31-2005, 11:57 AM
Actually, this is somewhat of a misnomer. The airport supposedly has 18 gates, but there are no gates # 7, 13, 15, 17. So really, there are only 14 gates at our airport. Strange the way they numbered them. Good question for Karen Carney. I know the gates on the main terminal are numbered, 14, 16, 18, without odd numbers, because odd numbers are placed on the north side of the terminal/concourse and there is no north side for airports to dock on the MAIN terminal, like there is on the concourse. So that explains the absence of 13, 15, 17. But, I don't know why there isn't a gate 7 on the north side of the west concourse. Maybe it's for future expansion, who knows.

Personally, I think we need to build the East Concourse and reserve it just for regional jets. A lot of the larger airports have separate secitions just for regional and commuter jets. Look at the American Eagle Satellite Terminal at DFW.

Patrick
05-31-2005, 11:57 AM
Seeing is believing. I walked the entire area several times and saw every single gate with an airline assigned. We are out of gates. I saw it for myself. Do I need to shoot a picture of every single gate when I land next Monday?

I'm curious if there is a gate #7. Take a pic if you see one. Maybe it's new.

mranderson
05-31-2005, 12:10 PM
I'm curious if there is a gate #7. Take a pic if you see one. Maybe it's new.

One thing I forgot. Will Rogers has no gate 13. So, I think there is a gate 7. I left from gate 9, and it should have been next door.

Patrick
05-31-2005, 12:18 PM
They didn't have a gate 7 in the beginning, so if there's one there, they added it recently. Please check when you come back! If there is a gate 7, that brings us up to 15 gates, as there are no 13, 15, and 17 gates, for the reason I mentioned.

Just looking at our airport from the plane coming in, it still looks small, especially compared to most other airports. Even looks smaller than the little airport we landed at in Lihue, Kauai, Hawaii. But, I'll admit, it does look better now than it used to before the "expansion" project! The whole term expansion is actually a misnomer in my opinion. We have fewer gates than when we started, or I suppose the same number if there are 15 gates with Gate 7. One of the other old concourses was also missing a gate. Can't remember which one.

By the way, the new stone and rock facade on the building and the new arrival area looks superb. I love the new modern look of our airport. Looks very contemporary and bright.

Pete
05-31-2005, 12:42 PM
Here's the aiport guide from their website... Looks like no gate 7, 13, 15 or 17 so currently 14 gates.

However, maybe they are planning to add three gates to the east side of the concourse, shown as under construction on the left side of the drawing:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/WRWA1.jpg

chrisok
05-31-2005, 12:46 PM
There wasn't a gate 7 when I was there 3 weeks ago. Gate 7 would be where the restrooms and bookstore are located on the west side. Gate 5 is United and Gate 9 is reserved for Continental and apparently America West is using it too.

I don't think Delta (and perhaps Champion) have moved into their new gates yet. The ones they are using now are temporarily assigned. They will have 3 gates on the other side of Southwest. That will leave gates 1, 11, & 12 unassigned.

chrisok
05-31-2005, 12:48 PM
Or you could look at the map malibu posted.................

venture
05-31-2005, 12:52 PM
Couple things...

It is correct, there isn't a gate 7 in the new concourse. I just reviewed a photo I had taken 2 weeks ago when I was out getting some shots of the parked Indy Air CRJs.

Mranderson stated: "Not ONE gate was unassigned. All 17 had at least one airline assigned to it. So, that means we have 17 full gates and no empty gates. The additional concourse is needed now. Not later. "

You do understand the vast difference between gate assignment and gate utilization right? Please go back to the information I had posted which clearly shows we still have 2-3 gates of growth before there is a major capacity crunch. You also have to look at it from the perspective...you don't need to have an aircraft at the gate unless it is loading or unloading. Many airports such as Long Beach, Washington Dulles, the various airports in Hawaii, St. Petersburg, etc...all board from the ramp for some or all flights. Again, look at the gate utilization from the airline schedules first before going by the signage posted on the walls.

Patrick:

You stated that the east concourse should or could be dedicated to RJ flying. This really is irrelevant at this point. The Eagle satellite terminal at DFW was built to meet a gate crunch for not just RJs but also for their turboprop fleet in general. You also need to keep in mind the majority of flights in OKC are flown with RJs. There really isn't any point to dedicating one side of the airport to a certain aircraft type anymore. Thankfully with the new bridge designs from DEW and other manufacturers, you can use the same boarding bridge on aircraft from a Saab 340 to 757.

Patrick
05-31-2005, 12:54 PM
There wasn't a gate 7 when I was there 3 weeks ago. Gate 7 would be where the restrooms and bookstore are located on the west side. Gate 5 is United and Gate 9 is reserved for Continental and apparently America West is using it too.

I don't think Delta (and perhaps Champion) have moved into their new gates yet. The ones they are using now are temporarily assigned. They will have 3 gates on the other side of Southwest. That will leave gates 1, 11, & 12 unassigned.

I guess the 3 new Delta gates on the east side will bring us up to the 17 gates being discussed at the end of construction. And 1, 11, and 12 would explain the unassigned gates you mentioned, although I'd like to see America West grow and take on al of those.

OUman
06-02-2005, 09:24 AM
Ok, I've been following the airport's changes way before the whole expansion began, and here's a brief run-down:

When the terminal had the two concourses, B and C, each concourse had eight gates. Yes, there was a gate C9, but that was because there wasn't any gate C5. Southwest only had gates C1, C3 and C7. When TWA went out of business in '01, AA dropped one of its gates in Concourse B, and thus used only three gates.

But there was one unused gate-B1. Now there are 17 gates, one more than before (yes, it's still an expansion, not a just a remodelling-an expansion is a significant increase in floor space, not just more gates). And there will be three unused gates.

As for the numbering of the gates, a lot of airports, not only in this country, but around the world do the same thing. I don't know why, but they number the gates so you think that thee are more gates than the terminal actually has. Look at the Tulsa Int'l terminal map-same thing.

Personally, I think the new terminal is MILES better than the old one. I still recall heading out from OKC on a cloudy day and the concourses looking somewhat dimly-lit. No more. Even on a dull, cloudy day, the new concourse and terminal will have ample light. The outdoor plaza garden should also be great.

OUman

Omaha Cowboy
06-02-2005, 09:39 AM
I posted this in another thread and thought it might be of interest here..

Some additinal information of interest..The following is a ranking for the top 176 airports in 2004 according to total passengers..

Omaha-#68: 3,868,217
OKC-#74: 3,379,883
Tulsa-#79: 2,943,919..

The link to the complete list:

http://www.aci-na.org/docs/2004%20P...%20Rankings.xls

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

BDP
06-03-2005, 11:42 AM
Personally, I think the new terminal is MILES better than the old one.

And in the end, we should be thankful for that. I recently went to LA and flew through Dallas to Burbank. And, while OKC was not the biggest airport, it was the best looking.

mranderson
06-07-2005, 08:01 AM
I guess the 3 new Delta gates on the east side will bring us up to the 17 gates being discussed at the end of construction. And 1, 11, and 12 would explain the unassigned gates you mentioned, although I'd like to see America West grow and take on al of those.

Yes. America West IS going to grow. When I arrived last night, I asked some of the America West staff how Oklahoma City is doing so far. They said so well, we are about to be changed from America West Express to America West, with 737 and A320 service. In addition, more routes will be added in the near future with a strong possibility of new cities as well. They did not deny hub status in the future.

In addition to the above. In response to Venture's comment about gate assignment. I could care less about gate utilization. The fact is all gates are assigned. WE NEED MORE GATES NOW! Patrick wrote that his plane had to be placed in a holding area until the gate opened. So did mine. That says the airport trust is not doing their job.

About the gates. I walked the terminal and counted which ones had airlines assigned. No matter what the website says, my eyes told the tale.

I do admit, however, to misreading the non existant gate seven.

My advise is to fly someplace out of Will Rogers and take the time to walk the teminal and look around. Look at every gate and you will see an airline assignment. Some have two.

venture
06-07-2005, 11:13 AM
Yes. America West IS going to grow. When I arrived last night, I asked some of the America West staff how Oklahoma City is doing so far. They said so well, we are about to be changed from America West Express to America West, with 737 and A320 service. In addition, more routes will be added in the near future with a strong possibility of new cities as well. They did not deny hub status in the future.

In addition to the above. In response to Venture's comment about gate assignment. I could care less about gate utilization. The fact is all gates are assigned. WE NEED MORE GATES NOW! Patrick wrote that his plane had to be placed in a holding area until the gate opened. So did mine. That says the airport trust is not doing their job.

About the gates. I walked the terminal and counted which ones had airlines assigned. No matter what the website says, my eyes told the tale.

I do admit, however, to misreading the non existant gate seven.

My advise is to fly someplace out of Will Rogers and take the time to walk the teminal and look around. Look at every gate and you will see an airline assignment. Some have two.

Of course some have two. Why would waste a whole gate on an airline that has 3 or fewer flights a day? Allegiant (1), Frontier (3), and America West (3) don't need their own gates. In fact they can all share one...depending on scheduling. Gate utilization is a huge factor when it comes to determining terminal expansion. Discarding that just means you don't want all the factors reviewed since some disagree with your point.

I also find it interesting that you felt the need to private message me claiming to be an expert because you've been flying for the last 15 years. Well congrats. At that time is when I received my first stock investment in an airline...and have been following and researching the industry intently since then. So if that makes me a know it all brat, as you so referred, I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps it is better to open your mind to all ideas especially when they are presented to help you understand the industry better.

mranderson
06-07-2005, 12:04 PM
Of course some have two. Why would waste a whole gate on an airline that has 3 or fewer flights a day? Allegiant (1), Frontier (3), and America West (3) don't need their own gates. In fact they can all share one...depending on scheduling. Gate utilization is a huge factor when it comes to determining terminal expansion. Discarding that just means you don't want all the factors reviewed since some disagree with your point.

I also find it interesting that you felt the need to private message me claiming to be an expert because you've been flying for the last 15 years. Well congrats. At that time is when I received my first stock investment in an airline...and have been following and researching the industry intently since then. So if that makes me a know it all brat, as you so referred, I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps it is better to open your mind to all ideas especially when they are presented to help you understand the industry better.

America West has six flights a day to Phoenix and Las Vegas (total). You are correct about Frontier, however, they are the main tenent at their gate sharing with Allegiant, which has one or two flights four or five days a week, not daily. Allegiant could share with Champion since neither have daily flights. That is diferent.

Again, I could care less about "utilization." Each airline needs at least one gate of their own if they have daily flights. The fact is America West will expand service first by increasing the size of the jets, then by adding flights to the same cities, then adding cities. So, they need their own gates, and two may not be enough. For now, two are fine, however, as time goes on it will be not be.

Again, a debate that is going nowhere. I fly more often than most leasure travelers, and explore the cities and their commercial airports. NOT ONE acts like Will Rogers. Granted, some DO share gates, however, they share only between airlines that do not have daily flights. Example. Sacramento. Jet Blue has flights on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. They share with Hawaiian who has flights on Tuesday, Saturday and Sunday.

venture
06-07-2005, 12:37 PM
America West has six flights a day to Phoenix and Las Vegas (total). You are correct about Frontier, however, they are the main tenent at their gate sharing with Allegiant, which has one or two flights four or five days a week, not daily. Allegiant could share with Champion since neither have daily flights. That is diferent.

Again, I could care less about "utilization." Each airline needs at least one gate of their own if they have daily flights. The fact is America West will expand service first by increasing the size of the jets, then by adding flights to the same cities, then adding cities. So, they need their own gates, and two may not be enough. For now, two are fine, however, as time goes on it will be not be.

Again, a debate that is going nowhere. I fly more often than most leasure travelers, and explore the cities and their commercial airports. NOT ONE acts like Will Rogers. Granted, some DO share gates, however, they share only between airlines that do not have daily flights. Example. Sacramento. Jet Blue has flights on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. They share with Hawaiian who has flights on Tuesday, Saturday and Sunday.

I would like to know where America West magically doubled flights. The flight numbers I listed are correct...as America West only has 3 daily flights - 2 to PHX and 2 to LAS. In fact, I just looked at the schedule, and for the month of August the CRJ-900 to PHX gets downgraded to a 50-seater CRJ-200.

Allegiant has 4 weekly flights (only one per day it operates). Your comment that you don't care about gate utilization is a huge issue. I'm trying to give you some insight in how things work in the real world, and this is something they look at. You can't just shut it out because you disagree with it.

In SMF, JetBlue actually has one daily flight to both JFK and IAD. Hawaiian same situation, they are daily to Honolulu. Airlines do share gates...and definitely when they have daily flights. I'm trying to get you to see this...its more common than you think. Just because a gate has an airline logo on it, doesn't mean anything in most cases.

OUman
06-07-2005, 09:16 PM
Gate sharing has been going on for decades. And it's only going to increase. At the newly re-developed concourse at SEA (forgot which one), WN and five other airlines share all gates. They're called "open-space" gates, and airlines can better utilize those gates; instead of some gates sitting empty at a stretch, other airlines' planes can use those gates.

OUman

mranderson
06-13-2005, 12:31 PM
I have added some pictures of the terminals at Will Rogers, Sacramento International, and Phoenix Sky Harbor.

This should show you what a hub is like.

venture
06-13-2005, 01:07 PM
Like anyone had any doubts what a hub looks like. But if they do...

http://photos.airliners.net/middle/9/4/9/718949.jpg

HOT ROD
06-13-2005, 04:08 PM
Gate sharing has been going on for decades. And it's only going to increase. At the newly re-developed concourse at SEA (forgot which one), WN and five other airlines share all gates. They're called "open-space" gates, and airlines can better utilize those gates; instead of some gates sitting empty at a stretch, other airlines' planes can use those gates.

OUman

Its concourse A

OUman
06-14-2005, 03:08 PM
Ahh, thanks HOT ROD.

OUman