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mranderson
05-06-2005, 07:42 AM
This is the day... America West officially arrives in Oklahoma City.

The first flight out of Will Rogers is set for aproximatly 2:30 this afternoon, with the full flight schedual starting at 8:15 tomorrow morning.

Remember. Fly America West to the west coast, and we may be their hub. We have to earn that distiction.

mrote
05-06-2005, 10:01 AM
Are they supposed to have non-stops to LA? My family is traveling to LA at the end of June and I am in the proces of buying tickets but they don't show any non-stops in my timeframe. Seeing as it's around $320 per ticket to LA from OKC with 1 stop, I will just drive to Dallas and leave from there on a non-stop Alaska Air flight for around $230. With a family of 4, the savings are substantial plus the convenience of not having to herd my kids on to a different plane.

mranderson
05-06-2005, 10:04 AM
Are they supposed to have non-stops to LA? My family is traveling to LA at the end of June and I am in the proces of buying tickets but they don't show any non-stops in my timeframe. Seeing as it's around $320 per ticket to LA from OKC with 1 stop, I will just drive to Dallas and leave from there on a non-stop Alaska Air flight for around $230. With a family of 4, the savings are substantial plus the convenience of not having to herd my kids on to a different plane.

Not at this time. However, the connections are conveniant. When we get the hub, then, yes. LA would be a non stop.

mrote
05-06-2005, 10:11 AM
Thank you. If it was just my wife and myself I wouldn't mind paying a bit more and supporting AW but when you add two more tickets it adds up quickly. The price difference will pay for Disneyland!

mranderson
05-06-2005, 12:48 PM
OKC Talk officially welcomes America West to Oklahoma City.



ArriveOklahoma City, OKDate5/6/2005Date5/6/2005GateB12Gate9Scheduled9:03 AMScheduled1:18 PMActual9:03 AMActual1:18 PMStatusDepartedStatusArrived

OUman
05-06-2005, 09:39 PM
If we get a hub, that's great. But market dynamics will dictate much of that, after all, it has to be profitable, otherwise the airline won't do it, simple. Also keep in mind the high fuel prices and such.

OUman

NewPlains
05-09-2005, 11:37 PM
ah, but high fuel prices could work in our favor...refueling in OKC is much cheaper than refueling almost anywhere else in the country, which would be a major plus for a mid continent hub.

OUman
05-10-2005, 07:24 AM
True, you have a point.

Midtowner
05-10-2005, 09:15 AM
So what do you all think is our chance if AW merges with United Airways -- it seems very likely at this point.

I would think with all the infrastructure that they could consolidate, that OKC's chances of getting a hub would be nil.

mranderson
05-10-2005, 09:26 AM
So what do you all think is our chance if AW merges with United Airways -- it seems very likely at this point.

I would think with all the infrastructure that they could consolidate, that OKC's chances of getting a hub would be nil.

Part of the chances would be who the succeding carrier is. If it is America West, then no change. US Air, maybe. If they regionalize and use both names, again, no change.

Chances are, it will be either the former or the latter. Keep optomistic. The more postive reaction, the better.

Midtowner
05-10-2005, 11:35 AM
Part of the chances would be who the succeding carrier is. If it is America West, then no change. US Air, maybe. If they regionalize and use both names, again, no change.

Chances are, it will be either the former or the latter. Keep optomistic. The more postive reaction, the better.

What were the chances of AW locating here before the talks? I didn't see that they were all that good.

I'd imagine our facilities would need some major upgrading before we could become a hub for anything.

Of course, with these discount airlines, they really don't operate major hubs as much as they do mini-hubs. They're much less centralized than say.. United or Delta.

mranderson
05-10-2005, 11:45 AM
What were the chances of AW locating here before the talks? I didn't see that they were all that good.

I'd imagine our facilities would need some major upgrading before we could become a hub for anything.

Of course, with these discount airlines, they really don't operate major hubs as much as they do mini-hubs. They're much less centralized than say.. United or Delta.

If you remember I said in an earlier thread, all we have to do is fill six puddle jumpers a day, or come close, for about 18 months to two years, then the airline would file for hub status.

Guess what. EVERY flight so far is either fully booked or close. The flight I am taking to Phoenix has been sold out for several weeks.

Yes. We will eventually need a second terminal and several maintance hangers. If the airline announces, the airport distrust will be forced to build what we need to plan for now.

Chances so far, are as high as the planes fly at cruising.

Midtowner
05-12-2005, 07:06 AM
Now, the talks of merger are becoming very desperate for US Airways, and it seems it's almost a done deal -- look, the Executive team have already packed their golden parachutes:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05131/502416.stm

I think the hub is something that shall not come to pass.

brianinok
05-12-2005, 11:39 AM
I am not sure what their strategy would be after a merger with US Airways (assuming America West would be the purchaser). That would leave them with 4 hubs: Phoenix, Las Vegas, Philadelphia, and Charlotte. That's 2 on each coast. While a large percentage of people live on the coasts, it would not be convenient for anyone originating or arriving in the central US. If American West truly wants to be national (if not international) carrier, they would presumably need a central US hub. OKC would still be perfect for that. I could also see in the future them consoladating their 4 coast hubs into 2. Phoenix and Las Vegas are about 250 miles apart (as the crow flies), and Charlotte and Philadelphia are about 450 miles apart (as the crow flies). My thoughts are they they are too close for their long-term prospects. Maybe they would reduce two of them to smaller hubs (like American did with St. Louis). Anyway, just thoughts. I would think we still have a chance, but it woudl take longer with a merger b/c I would think their main focus would be on integrating the two operations for a while.

OUman
05-16-2005, 08:38 PM
A second terminal isn't what's needed, another concourse-the East Concourse, is what's needed. The East Concourse will have eight gates, that's more than enough to have a mini-hub or even a hub.

OUman

mranderson
05-16-2005, 08:43 PM
A second terminal isn't what's needed, another concourse-the East Concourse, is what's needed. The East Concourse will have eight gates, that's more than enough to have a mini-hub or even a hub.

OUman+

It sounds like you do not travel to hub cities much. A hub requires 30 gates minimum. At Sky Harbor, America West has around 50 gates.

There is no way an airline can have a hub with eight gates. Not even a "mini" hub.

OUman
05-17-2005, 07:51 AM
+

It sounds like you do not travel to hub cities much. A hub requires 30 gates minimum. At Sky Harbor, America West has around 50 gates.

There is no way an airline can have a hub with eight gates. Not even a "mini" hub.

For the record, I have been to about 10 different hub airports-Atlanta Hartsfield, St. Louis Lambert, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston Intercontinental, Frankfurt Int'l, Charles de Gaulle Int'l, London Heathrow, JFK, Cincinnati Northern Ketucky Int'l, and O'Hare. Yes, all this does prove exactly what you said, more than 30 gates. That also proves that you need that many more passengers.

The new terminal at OKC can be significantly expanded to accomodate more gates. When a terminal's expanded or new terminals are built, they are built in such a way that there is plenty of room available for future expansion of the same terminal.

OUman

mranderson
05-17-2005, 08:44 AM
For the record, I have been to about 10 different hub airports-Atlanta Hartsfield, St. Louis Lambert, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston Intercontinental, Frankfurt Int'l, Charles de Gaulle Int'l, London Heathrow, JFK, Cincinnati Northern Ketucky Int'l, and O'Hare. Yes, all this does prove exactly what you said, more than 30 gates. That also proves that you need that many more passengers.

The new terminal at OKC can be significantly expanded to accomodate more gates. When a terminal's expanded or new terminals are built, they are built in such a way that there is plenty of room available for future expansion of the same terminal.

OUman

The way you wrote gave me a reasonable thought that you had never been to hub airports. Myself? I have been to most hubs in the United States. That is about a dozen.

Not to meet the needs of a hub. Many airlines want their own terminal when they hub. Plus, it looks great to have two 30 gate terminals. America West does share a terminal with Southwest in Sky Harbor, however, they each have about 50 gates. The area for expansion to the current terminal could not accomodate enough gates for America West's hub needs. It may be able to accomodate 30 gates maximum. Why? Remember. Once a plane pushes back, it takes a lot of room to taxi. Plus, they need room for more than one plane at a time to do so.

venture
05-18-2005, 12:53 AM
There will never be a hub in OKC requiring 30 gates. The airline model of the old hub and spoke system is dead except for the legacies and Frontier in DEN. The Spirit Airlines hub in DTW and FLL don't even come close to this 30 gate number. Nor did the ATA hub in MDW (before Ch11), Midway hub in RDU, US Airways in DCA (16 gates), ...need I go on? I really don't see how an idea of an America West hub in OKC even came to pass. They are flying 3 RJs into OKC...2 50-seaters and a 90-seater. OOOOOO. Filling those is, at the most, going to bring more frequencies or a few 319s. Doug Parker is not stupid and isn't going to spend millions on a new hub in OKC if a few RJ flights perform well. Could they look at a focus city in OKC as part of the US/HP merger...perhaps - but not a hub. They will spend their efforts connecting the dots between networks...not spending boat loads of cash to setup a new expensive hub in a city that doesn't have the O&D to support it.

I think a few just need to sit back and relax and welcome the new air service...but don't get too ahead of yourselves. Things take time to develop...and the OKC market must develop for America West before they invest much more into the city. I don't even think HP does their own ground handling in OKC...so don't get too excited.

mranderson
05-18-2005, 04:51 AM
Never, huh. Another person who can predict the future until the end of time, I guess.

If you had read the other threads, you would have read the fact I personally heard the conversation where the news of the possible hub was released.

I have been to numerous hub cities in my life, and have never seen a hub with as few gates as you describe. All require a minimum of 30 gates. Most have more.

Why not be positive and optomistic. Most people who visit or read about a city are turned off by pessimism. So am I, fo that matter.

OUman
05-18-2005, 07:16 AM
Actually, he is right about some of the hubs, Midwest's hub at Milwaukee's airport is less than 30 gates, same goes for Frontier at DIA and US Airways at Reagan National, although that technically isn't a hub.

Btw venture 79, America West Express only operates the CRJ 200's, not the 900, to/from WRA.

OUman

chrisok
05-18-2005, 08:36 AM
Actually I Think flight 6383 to PHX is a CRJ-900. The other 2 are 200's.

mranderson
05-18-2005, 08:57 AM
Actually I Think flight 6383 to PHX is a CRJ-900. The other 2 are 200's.

I checked America West's website. You are correct. The flight you cited is a 900. The publicity releases for the flights said 50 passenger jets. I was surprised to see one a bit larger.

Tall people like me hate these regionals. They are uncomfortable for a flight as long as Phoenix. However, it could be worse. The connecting flight to San Diego that a friend is taking is also a regional.

venture
05-18-2005, 09:39 AM
Never, huh. Another person who can predict the future until the end of time, I guess.

If you had read the other threads, you would have read the fact I personally heard the conversation where the news of the possible hub was released.

I have been to numerous hub cities in my life, and have never seen a hub with as few gates as you describe. All require a minimum of 30 gates. Most have more.

Why not be positive and optomistic. Most people who visit or read about a city are turned off by pessimism. So am I, fo that matter.

Considering the way words like to played on this board, I should have know better than to use 'never'. However, like I said - you will never see the old style hubs set up anymore in cities that lack enough O&D. This is the reason why PIT was dehubbed, and other cities that use to serve as hubs no longer are - DAY, RDU, CMH, etc. I think it should be noted that America West had a hub in Columbus OH - which is slightly larger than OKC and has a greater population (within a 2 hr drive) to draw from. Towards the end the hub was nothing more than merely a bunch of ERJs flying routes 733s use to operate on. Of course the mission of that hub was to bridge the PHX/LAS hubs to the east coast and that was no longer needed with the Airbus equipment coming online.

I can't discount anything you may have heard but just keep in mind the industry changes every day and what you may have heard yesterday was already out of date 2 seconds later. The fact of the matter right now is that America West is going to 1) be focused on a merger with US Airways or 2) trying to find increased liquidity as their cash on hand drops below $100 million by the end of the year. The carrier is in no position to open a new hub, especially in a market that isn't developed to its brand yet. Kansas City makes more sense since US Airways already has some feed to there thanks to Air Midwest.

As far as the size of hubs...it’s apparent you haven't been out of the mega hubs. Fort Widget in Atlanta and DFW are examples of the old fortress hubs we'll never see again.

Lastly...I'm all for being positive and optimistic...however you have to continue to be rational and use common sense as well. I'm originally from a city that has a population of around 300,000 and a MSA pop just under 700,000. That city has more backwards thinking and negativity than OKC will ever see. I've spent many years being a public critic to the Port Authority in that city on the way the airport is ran. If you think OKC is doing a bad job...I invite you to look around to other cities more and see how the airports are performing passenger number wise, financially, etc. Yes...I'm talking looking at the market in more ways than just gates and flights.

venture
05-18-2005, 09:39 AM
I checked America West's website. You are correct. The flight you cited is a 900. The publicity releases for the flights said 50 passenger jets. I was surprised to see one a bit larger.

Tall people like me hate these regionals. They are uncomfortable for a flight as long as Phoenix. However, it could be worse. The connecting flight to San Diego that a friend is taking is also a regional.

Yes...they updated the flight about 3 months ago - noticed it in Amadeus one day.

chrisok
05-18-2005, 09:52 AM
Tall people like me hate these regionals. They are uncomfortable for a flight as long as Phoenix. However, it could be worse. The connecting flight to San Diego that a friend is taking is also a regional.


I couldn't agree more. The only regional jet I've ever flown that was comfortable is Northwest's (Mesaba Airlines Actually) Avro RJ-85. If you flown Northwest from OKC in past few years, you've probably been on one. Not only does it actually have a 1st class, but the coach seats are roomy too. The seat width and pitch in coach are greater than some 1st class seats I've had. I'm 6'7" and almost 300 lbs, and I'd rather fly this plane than any big plane. One bad thing though, no entertainment of any kind on the plane.

Sorry to get off topic, but I thought I'd mention it.

OUman
05-18-2005, 09:18 PM
You think a CRJ's seats are bad, fly in a 777, you'll think the CRJ was better. Not saying that CRJ's or ERJ's are great, just saying that a 777's seating is worse.

mranderson
05-18-2005, 09:20 PM
You think a CRJ's seats are bad, fly in a 777, you'll think the CRJ was better. Not saying that CRJ's or ERJ's are great, just saying that a 777's seating is worse.

Actually, I have. I have flown in every model jet in the air, and many that are retired, including the Concorde. I happen to like the 777, and will fly it again.

By the way. We need to get this thread back on topic. IT is about America West, not commercial aircraft.:backtotop

JOHNINSOKC
05-19-2005, 08:41 AM
Which one of the two is buying the other?? I hope AW is buying out US Airways. That gives OKC a better chance for the central hub.

mranderson
05-19-2005, 08:43 AM
Which one of the two is buying the other?? I hope AW is buying out US Airways. That gives OKC a better chance for the central hub.

Since US Air is in chapter 11, it seems logical for the successor to be America West. A merger is technically not a purchase. That would be an aquisition. They just merge (bring together, Join) assets. Often, the stronger corporation drops the name of the weaker one, and then layoffs occur.

JOHNINSOKC
05-19-2005, 09:03 AM
American Airlines did things right by establishing a central hub at DFW. It only makes sense for AW to do the same by putting one in OKC. Perhaps AW understands the strategy of being more centralized.

venture
05-19-2005, 10:13 AM
Which one of the two is buying the other?? I hope AW is buying out US Airways. That gives OKC a better chance for the central hub.

Neither is buying anyone. GE, Air Canada, Airbus, Air Wisky, and two other firms are funding the development of a new holding company that will take over both HP and US. The surviving entity name will be US Airways. The merger press conference is expected after the closing bell today, in Phoenix. With that said however, Doc Bronner has hinted that it may be delayed until tomorrow or early next week.

venture
05-19-2005, 10:22 AM
American Airlines did things right by establishing a central hub at DFW. It only makes sense for AW to do the same by putting one in OKC. Perhaps AW understands the strategy of being more centralized.

Mind you that American setup in Fort Worth a long time ago. Just because one airline does it, does not mean it makes sense for HP/US to do it. Look at the most successful startups in the last 10 years - JetBlue. The bulk of their flying, for their nearly 100 aircraft fleet, is long haul transcons from JFK, IAD, BOS etc to cities in Florida and the west coast.

Project Barbell - the merger of US & HP - will likely result in aircraft being shifted to more long hail flying connecting points...not another hub. Also, expect HP/US to announce a fleet reduction of another 60 aircraft combined as part of the agreement to get funding from GE. I'm sorry...but these delusional dreams of a larger scale hub in OKC by America West need to stop. Take some time to actually learn the industry before making claims such as this. Airlines are not setting up new hubs...they are reducing exposure or improving the existing infrastructure. Delta shut down DFW and is depeaking ATL while getting ready to add more point-to-point flying out of BOS and JFK. American is reducing capacity slightly at ORD and moving RJs to connect more dots from DFW and MIA. Northwest eliminated their fourth bank from MEM and have yet to bring it back...instead they are developing a point-to-point network throughout the midwest - IND and MKE focus cities. US Airways has depeaked PHL, dehubbed PIT, and is creating a new focus city in Ft Lauderdale.

Industry trends are away from setting up and establishing classic hubs. Like I said before, a focus city in OKC wouldn't really shock me...but not an out right hub.

HKG_Flyer1
05-19-2005, 11:22 AM
I'm with venture79 on this point.

Although I used to be pretty down on the Airport Trust, I think they have recently turned things around and it is fast leaving its reputation as a lethargic backwater in the dust.

OKC is serviced by nearly every major legacy carrier, and each of these provides service to most/all of their major hubs already. Since they are already operating here, they have a strong, real-time handle on the economics of the OKC market. If and when demand warrants, they will increase frequency to their existing hubs and maybe add service.

Future service prospects: who knows, maybe limited Midwest Express, ATA, Air Tran, etc., feeding into their existing hubs.

Unfortunately, however, OKC's prospects of landing a 30 gate hub are slim to none... probably closer to none. There's just not enough O&D traffic.

What we do have, we should be proud of:
- a new facility that is on a par with/better than any mid-size city in the U.S.
- low air fares to most cities in the U.S., due to the fact that virtually every legacy carrier plus Southwest serves the market and no one carrier dominates.

mranderson
05-19-2005, 11:25 AM
"Neither is buying anyone."


That is my point. A merger is not a purchase. After all, when you "merge" into traffic, do you purchase something?

venture
05-19-2005, 01:06 PM
"Neither is buying anyone."


That is my point. A merger is not a purchase. After all, when you "merge" into traffic, do you purchase something?

I'm sure most of us understand the basics of a merger. I think the underlying question was who was going to finance this - since with any merger you need to have some sort of financing to back it up.

OUman
05-19-2005, 03:56 PM
*edited*

venture
05-22-2005, 01:04 AM
With the merger details available now, wanted to throw something out that will impact the OKC market.

- The new US Airways combined RJ fleet will eliminated up to 15 CRJ-200 50-seaters from the fleet, and not grow the CRJ-700 or -900 fleets.
- After the merger, 18 CRJ-900 aircraft will be removed from the HP system and moved to the Airways system.
- Also, the combined fleets will eliminate 40 737-300 aircraft and 20 A319/320 aircraft...50 aircraft form the Airways fleet and 10 aircraft from the HP fleet. HP will then redeploy some aircraft into the Airways system.

They do not expect to take any significant amount of aircraft from the next 3-4 years. They will accept 12 A319 aircraft next year, to replace aircraft leaving the fleet. Additional aircraft deliveries have been deferred to the end of the decade except for the impending A330 deliveries to replace the 767 aircraft in the Airways system.

So what does this all mean? First and foremost - there will not be enough aircraft to support this fantasy hub idea floating around. Second, OKC service will need to perform well or it will be looked at to be placed "in limbo" for better performing markets. On the flip side, with CR9 aircraft going to Airways...we could see those flown through here on CLT-OKC-PHX type routings. This will help transport aircraft through the system back to PHX where I'm guessing maintenance is performed by Mesa.

mranderson
05-22-2005, 05:46 AM
"So what does this all mean? First and foremost - there will not be enough aircraft to support this fantasy hub idea floating around. Second, OKC service will need to perform well or it will be looked at to be placed "in limbo" for better performing markets. "

Just imagine where we would be if Henry Ford had listened to the nay sayers. Think about it.

swake
05-22-2005, 09:31 AM
I read an interesting article in the Washington Post, talked about how hard this merger was going to be for AW to make a success. One of the reasons for that is the difficulty in transforming US Air into a low cost carrier. AW has a successful hub in it's home city and a minor hub in the top tourist spot in the world. US Air has a huge hub in Charlotte that is profitable and another hub in the very important city of Philadelphia that Southwest would love a chance to jump in and take over in. For AW to make money long term at least one hub needs to go and they need to get US Air off deoendance on the old hub and spoke system, but the story outlines how it's going to be hard for AW to give up any of the four hubs. No talk, at all, about ADDING a hub. They have to LOSE a hib. Get real, adding gates without them being used drives up landing and ticket fees which makes new service less likely, not more. There never was going to be an AW hub in OKC right after adding some puddle jumpers and there is zero chance of it happening in the next 15 years now.

mranderson
05-22-2005, 09:34 AM
"There never was going to be an AW hub in OKC right after adding some puddle jumpers and there is zero chance of it happening in the next 15 years now."

What source told you the hub was not going to happen? MY source happens to be an America West executive, which told ME PERSONALLY of the plans.

venture
05-22-2005, 09:47 AM
mranderson...

May I suggest you listen to the 3 recorded conference calls with Doug Parker and gang. Also read all the merger documentation that is available only. This is an airline that will be shrinking to regroup and lower costs, not expanding to add another hub.

I have a feeling you are reading to much into what an "executive" at America West said. They probably said OKC may make a nice hub flying to this place and that place, but the logic isn't there. The O&D market isn't there, the facilities aren't there, and the airline industry is not strong enough to invest that much money. With that said, it was clear that the CEO, COO, etc...are all stating that they will reduce capacity in the airline and focus on the current hub/focus cities.

One thing that did strike me...is they talked a bit about DFW specifically. They mentioned they will become the #3 airline in Dallas and will work to get travel contracts by the medium and smaller companies that don't want to use AA. If we wanted to read in to anything, that would be something to read in to.

HKG_Flyer1
05-22-2005, 10:27 AM
One thing that did strike me...is they talked a bit about DFW specifically. They mentioned they will become the #3 airline in Dallas and will work to get travel contracts by the medium and smaller companies that don't want to use AA. If we wanted to read in to anything, that would be something to read in to.

The DFW angle is pretty interesting. As I mentioned in another post, DFW is in a real pickle right now... a huge number of empty gates following Delta's elimination of the DFW hub, WN angling to get the Wright Amendment repealed, and some of the nation's highest airfares (as an example, OKC pax transiting DFW en route to their final destinations regularly pay less than half the fare charged to DFW-originating pax travelling to the same final destination on the same aircraft).

DFW is dangling substantial concession packages in front of airlines willing to move in/increase their presence, but no takers, as of yet.

swake
05-22-2005, 07:28 PM
I think your unnammed source if full of crap, mine was was a world class newspaper that I identified, the Washington Post, and I news googled OKC and AW, nothing, anywhere on the entire web.

As for other sources, I've read a dozen articles from different outlets, all talk contraction and losing a hub, no adding. You have a phone call from a unammed employee of AW that you illegally or at least immorrally listened to.

mranderson
06-07-2005, 08:24 AM
I said part of this in the commercial airline thread, however, this is a report on America West and their future in Oklahoma City.

Every flight has been sold out since they started service. On the Phoenix route, they are stomping Southwest. I was told we will have service added and get larger aircraft. The way they talked, we may get 737 or A320 service instead of the CJr's. They may start with the larger CJR and build on that, however.

America West has more leg room on the CJR200 than United and has leather seats.

I mentioned the talk of the hub status, and all the employees I talked with did not deny that. Even the flights captain. They also agreed that if the merger with US Air is approved, we are likely to get routes to Charlotte and Pennsylvania. They talked like if we do get a hub, US Air will not affect that decision.

At this point, Continental is handeling the airline operations, however, America West will staff their own in the near future as well.

It is looking VERY good for the city.

venture
06-07-2005, 11:05 AM
I said part of this in the commercial airline thread, however, this is a report on America West and their future in Oklahoma City.

Every flight has been sold out since they started service. On the Phoenix route, they are stomping Southwest. I was told we will have service added and get larger aircraft. The way they talked, we may get 737 or A320 service instead of the CJr's. They may start with the larger CJR and build on that, however.

America West has more leg room on the CJR200 than United and has leather seats.

I mentioned the talk of the hub status, and all the employees I talked with did not deny that. Even the flights captain. They also agreed that if the merger with US Air is approved, we are likely to get routes to Charlotte and Pennsylvania. They talked like if we do get a hub, US Air will not affect that decision.

At this point, Continental is handeling the airline operations, however, America West will staff their own in the near future as well.

It is looking VERY good for the city.


As far as the comment every flight has been sold out - I would say they are doing well, but not quite that well. I did a quick check and there is still availability on tomorrows flights even. Stomping Southwest? LOL They offer just under 150 seats each way in the market, Southwest offers nearly 400. Southwest isn't hurting. Larger aircraft? Wouldn't be shocked to see that...but expect more CRJ upgrades first.

As far as the CRJ-200 seating...it is the same on all airlines that are using a 50-seat configuration. The only exceptions will be the CRJ-440s flown by Northwest or the 400s flown by ASA/Comair that are reduced to 40/44 seats for range purposes (and scope in NW's case). When you get into the larger CRJs, pitch is more flexible as some...such as UA, have first class in their larger RJs.

I find it interesting that you are getting information from line employees. Though I will admit that some do build connections over time, the reliability of such information is suspect. Also, as I've mentioned MANY times on this forum...I would definitely expect flights to at least Charlotte after the US/HP merger is done. Flights to Philly will take some time as that operation is extremely delay prone as is.

From everyone I've talked to with US Airways and America West, the general consensus is more connecting the dots versus another hub. They may do a focus city in the midwest with STL and MCI coming far ahead of OKC. It really depends if they want to worry about the passengers flying north-south through the "Overfly Zone" of the US...or the central US. Going by the documents filed with the court that includes the outline of the merger plan, there won't be any significant push for a new central US operation anytime for the next 3-5 years.

mranderson
06-07-2005, 11:45 AM
"employees" know a lot more than you think quite frequently. I will trust what several (as you called them) "Line employees" over your so called experts any day. In the city they serve, they know the score. On most flights, America West has sold out which has placed them in an oversell situation. Yes. On an occasion a flight will have a seat or two available. However, I bet the closer you get to flight time the closer it gets, and it WILL sell out.

For the most part, America West is seeing the fact they underestimated this market and now knows they need larger jets to accomodate demand.

You sir, are incorrect about the amount of legroom on these jets. United is cramped I could barely sit down, and I am not talking about width. I sat in the exact same seat number on both airlines.

About the hub. I said in one of the first posts on this subject that the airline planned on applying for hub STATUS if demand met their target. I have not said they would definatly establish a hub here. The odds are looking better, however. This based on information gained by people INSIDE America West.

We are in a revolving door. I think it is time to call this debate finished. You will not change what I know about the airline's future here and what I know about the industry as a whole.

OUman
06-07-2005, 12:40 PM
I will agree with one thing, n/s's between OKC and both, CLT and PHL are likely, as even Karen Carney has mentioned about gaining more eastern U.S. n/s service from OKC.

However, as is the case w/ a market like OKC's and most new service in such a market, it will most likely be w/ RJ's again, before any aircraft upgrades are made.

Allegiant and Champion started out w/ mainliners because that's all they have in their fleets. But it doesn't matter anyway, because the LAS flights are doing exceptionally well. Champion now has service eight times a week-twice same day departures on the days it operates flights between OKC and LAS.

Also don't forget about the possibility of Allegiant adding n/s's between OKC and MCO.

OUman

venture
06-07-2005, 12:45 PM
"employees" know a lot more than you think quite frequently. I will trust what several (as you called them) "Line employees" over your so called experts any day. In the city they serve, they know the score. On most flights, America West has sold out which has placed them in an oversell situation. Yes. On an occasion a flight will have a seat or two available. However, I bet the closer you get to flight time the closer it gets, and it WILL sell out.

For the most part, America West is seeing the fact they underestimated this market and now knows they need larger jets to accomodate demand.

You sir, are incorrect about the amount of legroom on these jets. United is cramped I could barely sit down, and I am not talking about width. I sat in the exact same seat number on both airlines.

About the hub. I said in one of the first posts on this subject that the airline planned on applying for hub STATUS if demand met their target. I have not said they would definatly establish a hub here. The odds are looking better, however. This based on information gained by people INSIDE America West.

We are in a revolving door. I think it is time to call this debate finished. You will not change what I know about the airline's future here and what I know about the industry as a whole.

Just thought I would put something out this. In August, America West will DOWNGRADE their CRJ-900 fligh to a 50-seater.

As far as anything else...I agree we are in a revolving door where you refuse to accept all facts and open you horizons to the airline industry past being a person in a seat. To better help may I recommend reading Airlines <dot> Net and USAviation <dot> COM. You might learn something.

venture
06-07-2005, 12:49 PM
I will agree with one thing, n/s's between OKC and both, CLT and PHL are likely, as even Karen Carney has mentioned about gaining more eastern U.S. n/s service from OKC.

However, as is the case w/ a market like OKC's and most new service in such a market, it will most likely be w/ RJ's again, before any aircraft upgrades are made.

Allegiant and Champion started out w/ mainliners because that's all they have in their fleets. But it doesn't matter anyway, because the LAS flights are doing exceptionally well. Champion now has service eight times a week-twice same day departures on the days it operates flights between OKC and LAS.

Also don't forget about the possibility of Allegiant adding n/s's between OKC and MCO.

OUman

I'm trying to find out what the interest is in starting the Sanford flights. I wouldn't be shocked to see them, but they may be somewhat reluctant to considering TMA's rapid withdrawl. Granted that was mostly to push aircraft to routes back east that were performing better.

As you said, the PHL and CLT flights would likely start out at RJs. I am hopefully we'll get some of the Embraer 170s here...but won't hold my breath. There will also be 18 CRJ-900s in the America West network moving to the US Airways network after the merger is completed in September/October. That could open up the ability for them to run those aircraft CLT-OKC-PHX and back. Not for additional flight options between CLT and PHX, they'll likely go under another flight number, but for aircraft positioning. Which I'm sure you know, but thats for anyone else reading this.

OUman
06-07-2005, 09:22 PM
The flights between SFB and OKC that TMA started suffered from the same thing the LAS flights suffered from: bad timings. Allegiant now has a focus operation going at SFB, and the flights between OKC and LAS are doing pretty well. So if Allegiant's flights are timed like the LAS flights, I'm sure they'll do fine.

Seeing the EMB 170's at OKC's a possibility, but yeah, the 50 seaters are more likely at first. Hopefully by the time those flights are started, our pax traffic will have risen enough that the EMB's are used instead of the 50 seaters. The new EMB's are nothing like the cramped CRJ's and ERJ's, they're nice and roomy. Even the CRJ 900 can't compare to the new Embraers.

OUman

mranderson
06-16-2005, 08:16 AM
The Oklahoman featured a story this morning all but confirming America West's plans to expand service in Oklahoma City, and the fact that service levels on the airline are far above expectations.

In the article, they reported we would in all likelihood, get more non stop routes to the east coast.

I guess my sources were correct. Imagine that.:bow:

brianinok
06-16-2005, 08:24 AM
I hope the article right—that we are going to get more non-stop flight to the east coast. But I question it because they couldn’t even get two basic facts correct. All the journalist would have had to do to get correct information is go to the airport’s website, which doesn’t seem too hard to me. America West has flights to Las Vegas and Phoenix, not just Las Vegas. And Southwest has 21 daily flights from Oklahoma City, not just 18.

OUman
06-16-2005, 10:35 AM
I hope the article right—that we are going to get more non-stop flight to the east coast. But I question it because they couldn’t even get two basic facts correct. All the journalist would have had to do to get correct information is go to the airport’s website, which doesn’t seem too hard to me. America West has flights to Las Vegas and Phoenix, not just Las Vegas. And Southwest has 21 daily flights from Oklahoma City, not just 18.

Actually, WN does indeed have only 18 departures from OKC, because it dropped two to MCI and two to DAL. It had 22. But you're right about the HPX flights.

OUman

venture
06-16-2005, 12:51 PM
The Oklahoman featured a story this morning all but confirming America West's plans to expand service in Oklahoma City, and the fact that service levels on the airline are far above expectations.

In the article, they reported we would in all likelihood, get more non stop routes to the east coast.

I guess my sources were correct. Imagine that.:bow:

Wow it is getting deep in here...where are my boots?

How many times has it been said by myself and others that addtional flights would come - as a result of the merger. That is EXACTLY what the Oklahoman reported. I think we've said that new flights to at least Charlotte and maybe Philly are almost guaranteed when the merger is in full swing this fall.

Aso about HP far exceeding expectations...here is a link to the article: http://www.newsok.com/article/1527687/

Karen Carney simply said they have "done well in Oklahoma City." Far exceeding expectations? That would simply qualify as the route being profitable with in the first 18 months of service. If they meet that, they are doing pretty good.

Don't strain too much patting yourself on the back for someone we've all discussed already.

HKG_Flyer1
06-16-2005, 05:54 PM
Am I reading the same article. Best I can tell, the only semi-fact reported is that "a month in, America West has done well in Oklahoma City." All the rest of the article is filled with pure speculation, wishful thinking, etc. on the part of Karen Carney (nothing wrong with that).

Besides Ms. Carney's hopes that OKC will benefit from the merger, which appear to be based soley on one month operating experience by America West, where is everyone coming up with these positive indications with respect to future plans?

OUman
06-16-2005, 07:37 PM
I agree w/ HKG Flyer1. But the article also mentions that the airport trust has been in discussions (w/ who or which airline, not mentioned) about expanding air service. So who knows, all details haven't been released. Service between OKC and both, CLT and PHL is a good possibility, I won't say it's a certainty (predicting stuff about the airline industry is like predicting the weather a week or more out-there's uncertainty about it always).

But the new hubs at PHL and CLT will play an even greater role for the new LCC.

OUman

venture
06-17-2005, 05:46 PM
I think it should be revisited that they are downgrading the CRJ-900 to just a 50 seater. A market takes time to develop. Honestly the only markets I've seen develop really quick are some of the new routes out of DFW by American (I took one of those today and the flight was packed, for being only 8 days old...the route is running loads over 80% on average already)...and any route that involves Akron/Canton. :)

chrisok
06-17-2005, 07:10 PM
I think it should be revisited that they are downgrading the CRJ-900 to just a 50 seater.


I could be wrong, but from what I understand, that is only for the month of August. After that, the one flight (6383 I think) goes back to the 900.

venture
06-17-2005, 07:16 PM
August schedules haven't loaded yet...and about half of the 900 fleet will be leaving for the east coast this fall.