I wanted to post and see what peoples ideas were for a MAPS 4. With all the great things the program has done for the city it will only be a matter of time after the current MAPS is finished that a MAPS 4 will happen. I really think with all the progress we've made as a city and the current momentum we're only it will really be something that propels us into the future as a city on the rise.

One idea I really like is to build a large multipurpose/football stadium somewhere downtown. Maybe near the new central park on some of the land between the new I-40 crosstown and the old I-40. With a world class stadium it would put us as one of the first in line for a team that moves or if the NFL expands. I really believe an NFL team here would SHOOT us into becoming a world class city. Can you imagine! Thunder AND the NFL!? There are currently 10 NFL cities with a metro population of 2 million or less (already larger then 4 of those.) By the time a MAPS 4 would be passed we would be well over 1.5 million in our metro and with tulsa and the rest of the state thrown it we would be able to support it no problem. Plus it would bring in SO much money into our economy. Just something I would throw out there.

What other ideas does everyone have for a MAPS 4?

IF there is a MAPs IV, it may prove to be more of a finish M3 situation. Sidewalks scaled back, park scaled back, senior center scaled back, numerous questions exist re viability of the cc, and at least an appearance of efforts to peel back the streetcar. The fairgrounds seems ok but that seems about it for the time being.

I don't know if we'll be able to support an NFL team along with the Thunder until MAPS 5 or 6. We will likely have to wait until after San Antonio gets an NFL team since they are a bigger market and already have an outstanding indoor stadium.

One thing we do need to do is fulfill the promises that Mayor Mick made when he promised that all neighborhoods without any sidewalks would get them with the passage of the 2007 General Bond Issue and MAPS 3. My neighborhood, Mayfair West, is being left out of new sidewalks although Mayfair East will get new sidewalks per the 2007 Bond Issue. We need to rectify this deficiency in all neighborhoods lacking sidewalks before starting any new projects.

If the Senior Centers are pared back by removing the pools, no one will come. I am signed up at the Will Rogers Senior Center and never go since there is no indoor pool. The indoor pools are a REQUIREMENT if the Senior "Aquatic" Centers are to be built.

I strongly suggest the city leaders move the new convention center to MAPS 4 so that sidewalks, Senior Wellness "Aquatic" Centers can be built and the Central Park can be properly funded. We citizens (the majority of whom did not want a new convention center at this time) would be forever thankful.

Oh I left off the river front process seeming ok at the present. My bad.

I still don't understand the need for public subsidy of senior wellness centers and its inclusion in MAPS III except to buy the senior vote for the initiative. There are plenty of wellness centers that seniors can and do use already -- like metro Y's.

At this point, based on the broken promises and the boondoggle MAPS III has proven to be, I think MAPS IV (and anything beyond) is a major pipedream.

I still don't understand the need for public subsidy of senior wellness centers and its inclusion in MAPS III except to buy the senior vote for the initiative. There are plenty of wellness centers that seniors can and do use already -- like metro Y's.

At this point, based on the broken promises and the boondoggle MAPS III has proven to be, I think MAPS IV (and anything beyond) is a major pipedream.


Glad your in the minority, the Maps programs have been a big boom for this City (and will continue to be for years to come).

There is a combined stadium/arena concept in the Sports section that would be a great MAPS initiative eventually. The stadium seats around 25000 - 35000 and the arena 15000 I think. It is not a NFL stadium but one that would work very well for a Major League Soccer (I HATE that name) team. I believe we are far more likely to have an MLS franchise here in the next 10 years than NFL. NFL is probably more of a 20 year target if at all because that depends on the league expansion plans. The concept would also permit the Barons AHL team to move from the Cox Convention Center arena thereby removing an obstacle to that building being demolished and that block being redeveloped.

Other than that - more streetcar!!! Transit development is actually my #1 hope for MAPS 4. Extend the fledgling streetcar system approved in MAPS 3 to serve more areas that have been identified by the Streetcar Subcommittee. Additionally, funding for commuter rail and / or light rail in the cooridors that have already been identifed and studied extensively.

I still don't understand the need for public subsidy of senior wellness centers and its inclusion in MAPS III except to buy the senior vote for the initiative. There are plenty of wellness centers that seniors can and do use already -- like metro Y's.


I think for most, it's about keeping promises. These centers were a major part of the initiative. The sidewalks are a must. Streetcars.

Maps IV? Not until Maps III is truly finished and finished without broken promises. If the powers that be were to proceed with any kind of Maps IV - without fulfilling the promises of MAPS III - they can just forget it.

Put me down against any kind of stadium. Not for another 10-20 years.

MAPS 4 would certainly have to be very balanced with projects being in both the downtown/inner city area as well as in the suburban areas of OKC proper. Looking at the vote of MAPS 3, it is obvious where the least amount of support is coming from. I personally believe investing in a strong core to the city makes our city better as a whole, but many people look at "what is in it for me and my neighborhood".

I agree that MAPS III has to be satisfactory to the public before voters will consider a MAPS IV. However, there's a lot of sturm und drang before a single project has been started, much less completed. I'm willing to wait and see what they do with the money they collect within the MAPS III collection timeframe. I realize that construction costs are difficult to estimate, and so we might not get everything precisely as promised. As long as everything is reduced proportionally if expenses have risen, I'm O.K. What I don't want to see is money taken from other projects to build a $400 million convention center. That would make a lot of voters balk at MAPS IV, me included.

On my wish list for MAPS IV, unsurprisingly, is completion of the envisioned transit hub and more miles of streetcar line.

I don't know if we'll be able to support an NFL team along with the Thunder until MAPS 5 or 6. We will likely have to wait until after San Antonio gets an NFL team since they are a bigger market and already have an outstanding indoor stadium. ...

It has almost been twenty years since San Antonio built the Alamodome and they still do not seem on the edge of luring a team. Even if they got one today the Alamodome would be the 11 oldest stadiums in the league, by 2017 it will be one of the 5 oldest. 2005 estimates say it needs at least 100-150 million to meet the minimum standards, still placing the team at a competitive disadvantage on the revenue side and questionably profitable so could require around a billion dollars of local capital to buy a existing team (unless they do another expansion which would have a similar cost to buy franchise rights).

MAPS 4 would certainly have to be very balanced with projects being in both the downtown/inner city area as well as in the suburban areas of OKC proper. Looking at the vote of MAPS 3, it is obvious where the least amount of support is coming from. I personally believe investing in a strong core to the city makes our city better as a whole, but many people look at "what is in it for me and my neighborhood".

Agree completely. While its very hard to call something a "boondoggle" that has just begun, the actual vote of MAPs 3 laid bare some pretty deep divisions in this city, especially in areas south of the river.

Downtown at this point has a lot of self-sustaining momentum, and outside public transit any future projects should radiate out of the core. Also, Mick Cornett has gone on the record saying no future NFL/NHL expansions in the works for OKC and we should instead focus on supporting the Thunder long term, so no NFL stadium.

Agree completely. While its very hard to call something a "boondoggle" that has just begun, the actual vote of MAPs 3 laid bare some pretty deep divisions in this city, especially in areas south of the river.

Downtown at this point has a lot of self-sustaining momentum, and outside public transit any future projects should radiate out of the core. Also, Mick Cornett has gone on the record saying no future NFL/NHL expansions in the works for OKC and we should instead focus on supporting the Thunder long term, so no NFL stadium.

Very good points. I agree about the need to continue investing in the city core. But, there have also been cities that have put so much money into their downtown areas that neighborhoods are neglected. We need strong neighborhoods and strong city support all over the metro - and not in just the wealthier zip codes, either.

Like to see half go to sidewalks and pedestrian facilities city-wide. Let's get sidewalks everywhere. Second, I would like to see every bus route get actual stops. Lastly, want to see about 15 more miles of streetcar and major work done downtown to bring transit together -- either a major hub or an arrangement of transfer stations. Sidewalks should be a standard amenity for any large metropolitan city! Maybe MAPS 4 should concentrate on the atrious roads in OKC. OKC needs all concrete roadways to fix the atrocious roads that abound in OKC. They really are an embarrasement and you think OKC residents would demand better?? Asphalt roads do not last very long.

One thing we do need to do is fulfill the promises that Mayor Mick made when he promised that all neighborhoods without any sidewalks would get them with the passage of the 2007 General Bond Issue and MAPS 3. My neighborhood, Mayfair West, is being left out of new sidewalks although Mayfair East will get new sidewalks per the 2007 Bond Issue. We need to rectify this deficiency in all neighborhoods lacking sidewalks before starting any new projects.

John, I don't remember ever seeing a promise that every neighborhood would get sidewalks from that bond issue. And please note that the city is only about half way through with the bond issue process. As shown here, it was to be a 10 year program.

http://www.okc.gov/bonds2007/

Overhaul/restore Taft Stadium.

I have seen the MAPS projects a major positive for our city. However, I think I would prefer doing major projects one at a time, like we did with the Ford Center, err, Chesapeake Arena renovations. I was in favor of some of the projects in MAPS 3 and against others. Plus, a one cent decrease in the tax rate would be welcome for a couple years I think.

I have seen the MAPS projects a major positive for our city. However, I think I would prefer doing major projects one at a time, like we did with the Ford Center, err, Chesapeake Arena renovations. I was in favor of some of the projects in MAPS 3 and against others. Plus, a one cent decrease in the tax rate would be welcome for a couple years I think.

Reverend, as has been noted many times, many previous very successful Maps projects would have never been approved that way. We absolutely would not have had the canal and likely not the new arena the first time it was voted on. Most people would never notice a one cent reduction in sales tax.

I'd like to see light rail between 20 and 30 miles of light rail in okc.

For the rail supporters on here, the easy additions to what we are doing in MAPS 3 are-

Extensions of Phase 1 streetcar through the Plaza up to OCU/Health Sciences other direction
BRT or Light Rail up NW Expressway
Connections to the airport
Our sections in our city limits to Edmond, Moore, Del CIty
The connection to Tinker needs a new bridge over the OK River that also could include a trail/pedestrian component

But with all that infrastructure comes ongoing operational costs. Therefore if people in the public are serious, discussions need to begin on a Regional Transit Authority and an ongoing permanent financing mechanism.

Otherwise, scale it back to an Airport, NE Corridor, NW Exp, and Streetcar Extensions, and there might be some way to fund service without a grand regional mechnism, but even that is highly doubtful.

Its kinda like enegy policy, everyone talks around the periphery, but no one is willing to make the big steps as of yet to actual get it done.

Jeff Bezdek, MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee

I vote to let you write the MAPS 4 ballot!

:congrats:

How long was it after MAPS 1 was initiated when we started seeing actual construction of the various projects? Are we coming to that point yet? I will stay reserved on the subject until that time. 15+ years between MAPS and MAPS 3? We have a long way to go, but even so, I'm on the glass half empty side of another MAPS 4 right now. Seems no one in this city, other than Mr. Jeff Bezdek, knows how to attempt to get the job done.

How long was it after MAPS 1 was initiated when we started seeing actual construction of the various projects? Are we coming to that point yet? I will stay reserved on the subject until that time. 15+ years between MAPS and MAPS 3? We have a long way to go, but even so, I'm on the glass half empty side of another MAPS 4 right now. Seems no one in this city, other than Mr. Jeff Bezdek, knows how to attempt to get the job done.

Many thanks for the kind comments.

But with all that infrastructure comes ongoing operational costs. Therefore if people in the public are serious, discussions need to begin on a Regional Transit Authority and an ongoing permanent financing mechanism.

Jeff's right...a regional transit system (intermodal hub, commuter rail, light rail, streetcar, bus) will require a Regional Transit Authority (RTA) to operate it and a dedicated funding source to pay for it. If we want to have a regional transit system fully operational in 10 years, then we will need to have a Regional Transit District (RTD) and associated dedicated funding mechanism approved in 5-6 years, which fits the timeframe of the end of MAPS 3 and the potential beginning of MAPS 4. As it's probably not advisable to try to pass separate tax dedications for funding MAPS 4 and a regional transit system back to back, those would need to be pakaged together. If those are the goals, then we will need to have an RTA in place in the next 3-4 years. That means the various cities that will be involved in funding the regional transit system need to begin official discussions on the establishing an RTA in the next year or so.

The bottom-line is that if we hope to have commuter rail, light rail, bus rapid transit and other elements of a regional transit system developed and operational in a decade, we must begin planning now for how to manage and fund the system.

MAPS for neighborhoods. Sidewalks, lighting, transit, transit, transit, and transit!

I wanted to post and see what peoples ideas were for a MAPS 4. With all the great things the program has done for the city it will only be a matter of time after the current MAPS is finished that a MAPS 4 will happen. I really think with all the progress we've made as a city and the current momentum we're only it will really be something that propels us into the future as a city on the rise.

One idea I really like is to build a large multipurpose/football stadium somewhere downtown. Maybe near the new central park on some of the land between the new I-40 crosstown and the old I-40. With a world class stadium it would put us as one of the first in line for a team that moves or if the NFL expands. I really believe an NFL team here would SHOOT us into becoming a world class city. Can you imagine! Thunder AND the NFL!? There are currently 10 NFL cities with a metro population of 2 million or less (already larger then 4 of those.) By the time a MAPS 4 would be passed we would be well over 1.5 million in our metro and with tulsa and the rest of the state thrown it we would be able to support it no problem. Plus it would bring in SO much money into our economy. Just something I would throw out there.

What other ideas does everyone have for a MAPS 4?


Its great to dream, and dream big, but there comes a point where the dreams have to be tempered with reality. Oklahoma City is not an NFL contender. Population, funding base, discretionary income, to say nothing of the proximity of two existing franchises makes the prospect of building such a stadium sketchy at best. Considering that a stadium would require something on the order of $1 billion in funding, I think its beyond the scope of a MAPS project anyway.

Beyond that, thinking about the bad blood that was fostered as a result of certain broken (or severely bent) promises re MAPS III, methinks the chances for a MAPS IV right now are, at best, weak. An overhaul of city transit services would be a much better project IMHO.

Jeff's right...a regional transit system (intermodal hub, commuter rail, light rail, streetcar, bus) will require a Regional Transit Authority (RTA) to operate it and a dedicated funding source to pay for it. If we want to have a regional transit system fully operational in 10 years, then we will need to have a Regional Transit District (RTD) and associated dedicated funding mechanism approved in 5-6 years, which fits the timeframe of the end of MAPS 3 and the potential beginning of MAPS 4. As it's probably not advisable to try to pass separate tax dedications for funding MAPS 4 and a regional transit system back to back, those would need to be pakaged together. If those are the goals, then we will need to have an RTA in place in the next 3-4 years. That means the various cities that will be involved in funding the regional transit system need to begin official discussions on the establishing an RTA in the next year or so.

The bottom-line is that if we hope to have commuter rail, light rail, bus rapid transit and other elements of a regional transit system developed and operational in a decade, we must begin planning now for how to manage and fund the system.

There has been discussions between OKC and the cities it may connect with for several years.

There has been discussions between OKC and the cities it may connect with for several years.

General dialogue yes...serious discussions no. The closest thing to an official planning effort was the Regional Transit Dialogue that was sponsored by ACOG a couple of years ago. However, that process was designated as just an "excercise". ACOG is preparing to sponsor the Regional Transit Dialogue II in the coming months. Hopefully, RTD II will be viewed as more than just an excercise and will lead to ongoing official discussions and negotiations between OKC, Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, Del City and Moore to establish a Regional Transit Authority in the next few years.

Now I would take that back -- a sexy way to do this would be to make this a Road Diet/ Complete Streets project.

Sexy or not, anything that increases safety for bicyclists gets my vote!

John, I don't remember ever seeing a promise that every neighborhood would get sidewalks from that bond issue. And please note that the city is only about half way through with the bond issue process. As shown here, it was to be a 10 year program.

http://www.okc.gov/bonds2007/

Go ask Mayor Mick. I am almost positive that he promised sidewalks for all neighborhoods without them, at least on one side of the street.

Go ask Mayor Mick. I am almost positive that he promised sidewalks for all neighborhoods without them, at least on one side of the street.


LOL, you're the one who made the statement and you want me to research it? I don't think so.

Go ask Mayor Mick. I am almost positive that he promised sidewalks for all neighborhoods without them, at least on one side of the street.

I think the promise was for at least a sidewalk on one side of all the roads that were being reconstructed in the bond, which are primarily arterial roads.

For the rail supporters on here, the easy additions to what we are doing in MAPS 3 are-

Extensions of Phase 1 streetcar through the Plaza up to OCU/Health Sciences other direction
BRT or Light Rail up NW Expressway
Connections to the airport
Our sections in our city limits to Edmond, Moore, Del CIty
The connection to Tinker needs a new bridge over the OK River that also could include a trail/pedestrian component

But with all that infrastructure comes ongoing operational costs. Therefore if people in the public are serious, discussions need to begin on a Regional Transit Authority and an ongoing permanent financing mechanism.

Otherwise, scale it back to an Airport, NE Corridor, NW Exp, and Streetcar Extensions, and there might be some way to fund service without a grand regional mechnism, but even that is highly doubtful.

Its kinda like enegy policy, everyone talks around the periphery, but no one is willing to make the big steps as of yet to actual get it done.

Jeff Bezdek, MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee

Jeff, as you know a BRT (bus rapid transit) route for the Northwest Expressway & the airport to downtown) makes a lot more sense for OKC than light rail. For a BRT route from the airport, I see a BRT stop at a couple of Hotel stops on Meridian then the bus taking I-40 to downtown with stops at the major hotels & train station & then to the bus station. The Northwest Highway BRT would go from downtown bus station, possibly to the train station, and then up the Broadway Extension to the Northwest Highway with the first stop at Belle Isle Walmart, then Penn Square, then the Belle Isle Library, then every half mile up to the Walmart at Council Road. Because it is dangerous for pedestrians to cross the Northwest Expressway, we should expect bus patrons to loop around on their return trips and not be dinged for double fares.

However, if we citizens are already paying $5.00 each to fund our bus system (probably out of OKC general revenues), we need to look for a permanent revenue supplement to support the future expansion of our transit/bus system. Ridership fares are not sufficient. What does Edmond do to finance its free bus system?

I think the promise was for at least a sidewalk on one side of all the roads that were being reconstructed in the bond, which are primarily arterial roads.

Snowman, I do remember that. I think John is incorrect. It would be nice for every neighborhood to have sidewalks but the budget from that bond issue would never provide for that and it was never promised.

I think the promise was for at least a sidewalk on one side of all the roads that were being reconstructed in the bond, which are primarily arterial roads.
No, the promise was "We have a lot of neighborhoods without any sidewalks. We need every neighborhood to have sidewalks, at least on one side of the street. Vote for [2007 General Bond Issue/MAPS 3] and we'll put sidewalks in your neighborhood." The quotes are inexact, but this is what I remember & one of the major reasons I supported both issues, even over my objection to a new convention center in MAPS 3. Look at the sidewalks being built for the 2007 Bond Issue. There are at several square miles of neighborhoods like Mayfair West getting sidewalks for the first time. (Every street in the section is slated for sidewalks.) Yet a less affluent neighborhood like mine (Mayfair East) is completely left out. The promise wasn't "we're going to put sidewalks in affluent areas only".

I think the 2007 Bond Issue needs to be reprioritized & sidewalks for all neighborhoods should be a major priority. If for some reason the 2007 Bond Issue projects are set in stone, then MAPS 3 should drop the new convention center & build sidewalks. The new convention center is for elitist Oklahoma Cityans, anyway. It should be pushed back to MAPS 4. For us plebeians, the Cox Convention center is more than sufficient to meet our needs for the next 20 years. Remember the new Convention Center has no arena. There are hundreds of events that have used the Cox Center arena -- while the OKC Chesapeake Arena is being used for something else or is just too big and expensive (e.g. the Red Earth Festival, Billy Graham's crusade, The Flaming Lips concerts on Opening Night, and the OKC Barons hockey games).

Jeff, as you know a BRT (bus rapid transit) route for the Northwest Expressway & the airport to downtown) makes a lot more sense for OKC than light rail. For a BRT route from the airport, I see a BRT stop at a couple of Hotel stops on Meridian then the bus taking I-40 to downtown with stops at the major hotels & train station & then to the bus station. The Northwest Highway BRT would go from downtown bus station, possibly to the train station, and then up the Broadway Extension to the Northwest Highway with the first stop at Belle Isle Walmart, then Penn Square, then the Belle Isle Library, then every half mile up to the Walmart at Council Road. Because it is dangerous for pedestrians to cross the Northwest Expressway, we should expect bus patrons to loop around on their return trips and not be dinged for double fares.

However, if we citizens are already paying $5.00 each to fund our bus system (probably out of OKC general revenues), we need to look for a permanent revenue supplement to support the future expansion of our transit/bus system. Ridership fares are not sufficient. What does Edmond do to finance its free bus system?


John, Jeff isn't just talking about what makes the most sense or is feasible for now, he's thinking ahead a little further than that which is what the city must do. Both of those corridors will eventually need and be justified for light rail.

John, Jeff isn't just talking about what makes the most sense or is feasible for now, he's thinking ahead a little further than that which is what the city must do. Both of those corridors will eventually need and be justified for light rail.

I only see light rail making sense in connecting OKC to Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and possibly Yukon/Mustang/El Reno. To me, a BRT route makes more sense for the NW Expressway-downtown & airport-downtown.

I am sure there isn't any space on the Northwest Expressway for light rail. We could probably carve a light rail pathway from downtown to the airport (there is a railroad right of way at Newcastle Road and Meridian leading towards downtown), but a BRT could make stops at the hotels on South Meridian before heading downtown on I-40 & there is not any space for light rail on Meridian Ave north of Newcastle Road.

Glad your in the minority, the Maps programs have been a big boom for this City (and will continue to be for years to come).
Minority? Maybe on this forum, but not necessarily among the voting public at large.

I have been a strong supporter of MAPS initiatives from the beginning, even including this initiative. Even though I didn't agree with parts of it (like the senior wellness centers — because there are viable and affordable private and non-profit options available — and the light rail, even though I generally support the concept in theory — because the pipe dream of receiving critical federal financial support for the project exposes how untenable the project will be without it), I supported the initiative and cheered its successful passage. However, as I've watched the shenanigans with the mayor and council, I've lost all confidence in their ability (and perhaps even their desire) to fulfill their promises to voters and fear that the likely half-assed results will turn off voters from supporting future worthy community improvement initiatives.

The APT has been working in this direction as well, have they not? It is my understanding that they have been lobbying cities to secure funding streams for transit.

http://okapt.org/about-us-2/

There are a number of private rail transit advocacy organizations...MTP...OnTrac...ATP...that support a regional transit system and have been lobbying for establishment of an RTA and securing a dedicated funding source for transit.

The truth is, however, that no matter how much those organizations support and lobby for those issues...and no matter how many Regional Transit Dialogues and other transit planning "excercises" take place...and no matter how many studies are done...and no matter how much public support there may be...there will be no RTA and no regional transit system until such time as the City Councils and City Managers of the various cities involved decide to move forward with official discussions and actions. All of us need to contact our councilmembers and urge them to get started now...otherwise an RTA and regional transit system will remain nothing more than a collection of studies and discussion notes gathering dust on the shelves at City Hall.

Again, to stay on point with this thread, if we want an RTA and regional transit system in operation before we are all old and grey, we need our city officials to begin serious discussions now in order to be prepared to coordinate a dedicated transit funding source as part of the MAPS 4 campaign in 5 or 6 years.

I only see light rail making sense in connecting OKC to Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and possibly Yukon/Mustang/El Reno. To me, a BRT route makes more sense for the NW Expressway-downtown & airport-downtown.

I am sure there isn't any space on the Northwest Expressway for light rail. We could probably carve a light rail pathway from downtown to the airport (there is a railroad right of way at Newcastle Road and Meridian leading towards downtown), but a BRT could make stops at the hotels on South Meridian before heading downtown on I-40 & there is not any space for light rail on Meridian Ave north of Newcastle Road.

Light rail won't be connecting norman to okc or okc to edmond ... EVER .. that will be commuter rail

BRT costs almost as much as light rail with much less benefit ...

I love the idea of a "Tranportation MAPs" that adds sidewalks everywhere, fixes bad streets, and extends the streetcar throughout the city and to suburbs that are willing to pick up their share of the project.

An NFL stadium is a terrible idea because every study shows you need about a million people per pro sports team. OKC will NOT be able to support both and the college teams in the area. A MLS sized stadium is a much better idea if you could also recruit a smaller bowl game too. Some have had the idea of some niche sport like tennis and that makes more sense because if you build great facilities then niche sports might succeed better... On that note, maybe adding some other water-related attraction to the river would be a better idea. I still like a transportation MAPs better though.

Light rail won't be connecting norman to okc or okc to edmond ... EVER .. that will be commuter rail


can you give your reasons why? i'm not disagreeing with you, just curious

Who of you would vote maps4 after the cynical bait and switch that happened last time around.

I'm still waiting for the full outcome of all of the projects to see how happy I am with it before commenting if I would vote for Round 4.

I love the idea of a "Tranportation MAPs" that adds sidewalks everywhere, fixes bad streets, and extends the streetcar throughout the city and to suburbs that are willing to pick up their share of the project.

An NFL stadium is a terrible idea because every study shows you need about a million people per pro sports team. OKC will NOT be able to support both and the college teams in the area. A MLS sized stadium is a much better idea if you could also recruit a smaller bowl game too. Some have had the idea of some niche sport like tennis and that makes more sense because if you build great facilities then niche sports might succeed better... On that note, maybe adding some other water-related attraction to the river would be a better idea. I still like a transportation MAPs better though.
m not sure an NFL stadium is a "terrible idea." I was thinking more along the lines of how much the potential income the city could come with it. Just a single NFL season has the potential to make the city make uppers of 100 million per season for the surrounding areas (probably more). Plus the other things you could draw. (bowl game, concerts, potential site of some game for the FIFA world cup should it come back to the US, etc.) Not to mention naming rights.

The one thing that's been true of basically every major league city (and we saw it with Bennett and co), it's that you're going to need a private person('s) to step up and take it upon themselves to start the process. Private funding can do wonders should people feel the need and want to step up. Devon has been awesome so far. If others do what their doing the possibilities could be endless for this city.

As far as support goes I honestly believe we WOULD support it. What sports team here in Oklahoma doesn't have am incredible fan base? You can't tell me it wouldn't be supported. Also it's not like we're talking 43 home games a year like the NBA. It would be about 8 regular season 2 pre-season and however many post season games. Another thing people also say is that there wouldn't be enough people in OKC to support it. Well I don't think just people from OKC are going to be the only ones coming. Two thirds of the Oklahoma population (over 2 million) live within 100 miles. There would never be a conflict of interest (games on the same night) because college football is on saturdays and NFL is on Sundays/Mondays. Just as long as the Thunder and the NFL team don't schedule games on the one Monday night game the team would get. To me if your going to build any kind of stadium even for soccer it couldn't be a small one. Why waste all that money on small when you could potentially go big to an NFL team.

To sum it all up I really believe it is possible, just not in the near future. Not until some group steps up. Just throwing out ideas though! I really like the light rail ideas for the city to and from the surrounding towns. EVERY large city in this country has some sort of metro/subway system and in order for OKC to take that next step that is what it's going to require. I love the potential of this city and where it's going!

I say we just put a large DOME around the entire city. They say we are recession proof, can you imagine being TORNADO proof?!?

I say we just put a large DOME around the entire city. They say we are recession proof, can you imagine being TORNADO proof?!?

http://matty13.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/picture-2.png

^^that's from the Simpson's movie? LOL

Based on the comments/question on the other page, I think there may be a bit of confusion between what all of BRT/Rail Technologies are, how much space they take up, and what they cost.

I do think that BRT would be a great way to start service on NW Expressway, although that type of bus technology is also often converted to light-rail later. For a NW line of any type to be successful, it will require strong improvements to sidewalk infrastructure, pedestrian safety, and comfortable (even small air conditioned waiting rooms). At least good shelters and trees. If a NW line was developed properly, it would touch on many neighborhoods and there is some viability for "Park N' Ride" integration. But it will require signal prioritization for bus/trams and a complete rethinking as to how someone even safely approached the area.

An easy smart plan to extend a rail line to Norman and the OU campus to downtown and Bricktown. with the ability to ride it home late as well, would probably be cost effective. Like the old days when the Interurban ran from Norman to OKC. The old rails are still under the asphalt on Main Street in Norman.

Based on the comments/question on the other page, I think there may be a bit of confusion between what all of BRT/Rail Technologies are, how much space they take up, and what they cost.

I'll try to clear up some of the rail confusion.

Light Rail involves electrified "lighter" rail transit vehicles operating on "lighter" gauge track in their own dedicated right-of-way. DART in Dallas is a good example of Light Rail. Modern Streetcars are actually a form of Light Rail vehicle, except they operate in the street with the flow of traffic. Developing a DART-type Light Rail system today costs $60-$80 million per mile. That means that Light Rail between Edmond and Norman would cost about $2 billion dollars...and Light Rail to Will Rogers would cost more than $500 million...and Light Rail out to NW Expressway would cost more than $1 billion. That's more than $3.5 billion. We're talking MAPS 4-10 here.

Commuter Rail involves "heavier" diesel-electricric locomotives with coach cars similar to the Heartland Flyer operating on "heavier" gauge tracks, usually within existing railroad right-of-ways. The New Mexico Rail Runner in Albuquerque and the Trinity Rail Express in Dallas are good examples of Commuter Rail. Commuter Rail can be developed for $8-$10 million per mile.

We have existing railroad corridors from OKC to Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, Tinker, NE OKC, Will Rogers, the Fairgrounds and the Adventure District, all of which can be developed as Commuter Rail for a fraction of the cost of Light Rail. With a total mileage count of about 60 miles, you could probably have that entire system operational along with a fabulous redeveloped intermodal hub for about 1/4 of the total cost of Light Rail from Edmond to Norman. Not to mention the fact that double-deck commuter rail coach cars have bathrooms and the seating is much more comfortable.

No, the promise was "We have a lot of neighborhoods without any sidewalks. We need every neighborhood to have sidewalks, at least on one side of the street. Vote for [2007 General Bond Issue/MAPS 3] and we'll put sidewalks in your neighborhood." The quotes are inexact, but this is what I remember & one of the major reasons I supported both issues, even over my objection to a new convention center in MAPS 3. Look at the sidewalks being built for the 2007 Bond Issue. There are at several square miles of neighborhoods like Mayfair West getting sidewalks for the first time. (Every street in the section is slated for sidewalks.) Yet a less affluent neighborhood like mine (Mayfair East) is completely left out. The promise wasn't "we're going to put sidewalks in affluent areas only".

John, please note this quote from the summary of Maps 3 projects on the city website.


The 2007 bond issue included $68 million for sidewalks next to all resurfacing projects, but this (Maps 3) sidewalks project is focused on strategic placement of sidewalks in areas of potentially high foot traffic.


http://www.okc.gov/maps3/summary.html

I think maybe you are just remembering what you hoped would happen.

While we're dreaming - - how about MAPS4 to buy all the land south of the Fairgrounds to the river to hold a sports stadium. No, not the NFL stadium necessarily but a nice sized 40K or so stadium for HS football, regulation soccer, and concerts. Fairgraounds canals could be built running from the dammed up river into the fairgrounds for weekend and fair-time water taxis. Plenty of room for other things. What else?

While we're dreaming - - how about MAPS4 to buy all the land south of the Fairgrounds to the river to hold a sports stadium. No, not the NFL stadium necessarily but a nice sized 40K or so stadium for HS football, regulation soccer, and concerts. Fairgraounds canals could be built running from the dammed up river into the fairgrounds for weekend and fair-time water taxis. Plenty of room for other things. What else?

Unless the Stockyards closes there are nicer options than the Fairgrounds, about a third of the time depending on wind direction & speed the area around the fairgrounds smells terrible.

John, please note this quote from the summary of Maps 3 projects on the city website.



http://www.okc.gov/maps3/summary.html

I think maybe you are just remembering what you hoped would happen.

About a year ago, I accused the Mayor of speaking with forked tongue. Although I approve of most everything he is doing for OKC, I really think he said something almost verbatim that 'EVERY neighborhood without sidewalks would be getting them on one side of the street' when selling the 2007 General Obligation Bond Issue and then repeated that quote when selling MAPS 3 to the public. I am just disappointed that my neighborhood (and many others) are being denied sidewalks while many other neighborhoods, probably with better political ties, are getting new sidewalks on every street. Heritage Hills (where I grew up) got new sidewalks on both sides of the road about 1½ years ago, when they already had existing sidewalks. It just seems unfair that our affluent neighborhoods are getting sidewalks in lieu of our less affluent neighborhoods. EVERY neighborhood should be getting sidewalks for their streets and that should be a major priority of the city, and if not, we need to adjust our priorities.

Reply deleted by author.

However, if we citizens are already paying $5.00 each to fund our bus system (probably out of OKC general revenues), we need to look for a permanent revenue supplement to support the future expansion of our transit/bus system. Ridership fares are not sufficient. What does Edmond do to finance its free bus system?

I learned from an APT email that the citizens of OKC pay $20 per resident from its General Fund to operate transit, not $5.00. APT is an acronym for Oklahoma Alliance for Public Transportation. My error. -- John H.

You may want to put Friday, April 20th on your schedule. OKC is having a FREE ride day on all METRO Transit buses as part of Earth Month. Maps and schedules can be found at the METRO Transit website: (http://www.gometro.org/) http://www.gometro.org/ I'll be participating that day & I plan to ride to Quail Springs.

I learned from an APT email that the citizens of OKC pay $20 per resident from its General Fund to operate transit, not $5.00. APT is an acronym for Oklahoma Alliance for Public Transportation. My error. -- John H.

You may want to put Friday, April 20th on your schedule. OKC is having a FREE ride day on all METRO Transit buses as part of Earth Month. Maps and schedules can be found at the METRO Transit website: (http://www.gometro.org/) http://www.gometro.org/ I'll be participating that day & I plan to ride to Quail Springs.

Shadid had an interesting point that since the fares cover such a trivial amount of the cost to operate the buses, it seems like it might be worth seeing what benefits we would get by paying the remainder.

I'll try to clear up some of the rail confusion.

Light Rail involves electrified "lighter" rail transit vehicles operating on "lighter" gauge track in their own dedicated right-of-way. DART in Dallas is a good example of Light Rail. Modern Streetcars are actually a form of Light Rail vehicle, except they operate in the street with the flow of traffic. Developing a DART-type Light Rail system today costs $60-$80 million per mile. That means that Light Rail between Edmond and Norman would cost about $2 billion dollars...and Light Rail to Will Rogers would cost more than $500 million...and Light Rail out to NW Expressway would cost more than $1 billion. That's more than $3.5 billion. We're talking MAPS 4-10 here.

Commuter Rail involves "heavier" diesel-electricric locomotives with coach cars similar to the Heartland Flyer operating on "heavier" gauge tracks, usually within existing railroad right-of-ways. The New Mexico Rail Runner in Albuquerque and the Trinity Rail Express in Dallas are good examples of Commuter Rail. Commuter Rail can be developed for $8-$10 million per mile.

We have existing railroad corridors from OKC to Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, Tinker, NE OKC, Will Rogers, the Fairgrounds and the Adventure District, all of which can be developed as Commuter Rail for a fraction of the cost of Light Rail. With a total mileage count of about 60 miles, you could probably have that entire system operational along with a fabulous redeveloped intermodal hub for about 1/4 of the total cost of Light Rail from Edmond to Norman. Not to mention the fact that double-deck commuter rail coach cars have bathrooms and the seating is much more comfortable.

thanks for the great recap