An NFL team in Tulsa or Oklahoma City?

Mayor Mick Cornett wanted to put some type of stadium on the MAPS III short-list; however, it came in at number 10.

The success of the Oklahoma City Thunder has certainly turned heads and have eyes taking a second look at OKC.

Here is a report listing Oklahoma City as a potential future home for the NFL:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/844925-nfl-potential-cities-it-could-move-or-expand-to#/articles/844925-nfl-potential-cities-it-could-move-or-expand-to/page/7

1. Los Angeles
2. San Antonio
3. A second team in Los Angeles?
4. Toronto
5. Oklahoma City

Is it possible that MAPS IV (2017 momentum) will include a stadium which could become the future home of an NFL team? Currently there are not enough dollars to support a second Fab Four franchise in OKC; however, who knows the 2020 future for an NFL franchise in one of the Sooner States top two cities (Oklahoma City, Tulsa).

1. What type of facility would we need?
2. What are our projections for 2020?
3. Could Gaylord Family Oklahoma Memorial Stadium be used as a temporary home?

We didn't expect the New Orleans Hornets to make Oklahoma City our temporary home--their temporary relocation brought out the best in Oklahoma.

Is Oklahoma City or Tulsa poised to take the next step?

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

2020 or 2030,by then maybe!The way OKC is growing it might be possible by then.Tulsa's best bet is the NHL in the future.

I don't think it's feasible by 2020. I think a city of OKC's size can support a pro team, but I don't think we should be anticipating the city to be able to support multiple teams as of yet. I don't think our population is really high enough to support it, and I don't think the money is there as a whole to support it.

On #3 they have used College stadiums as interim solutions, many college stadiums have larger capacities. They just generally do not have as nice of amenities, number of suits and related income generators. The Vikings may still be in a college stadium if the work from their roof being damaged by snow last month has not been finished.

No… not in my life time.
I will actively oppose any effort to bring the NFL to the OKC area.

In a word: No.

Lots of folks who have seen the success of the NBA have made the errant extrapolation that an NFL franchise would be just as successful in this football-crazed state. Problem is that the financial underpinnings for an NFL franchise are close to $1 billion by the time you start thinking about a franchise and a stadium.

First, neither Oklahoma collegiate football venue could be used for an NFL franchise, primarily due to the fact that beer and alcohol sales are illegal in either venue (Norman or Stillwater). It'd take an act of the Legislature to change it. Beyond that, I suspect the close proximity to I-35 would make Owen Field the more favorable choice, but I'm not at all sure OU would be willing to take on the wear and tear of eight home games on top of the five or six hosted annually right now - to say nothing of the logistics involved in flipping the stadium from a Saturday game to a Sunday game on a nearly-overnight basis.

Believe me, I'm a football-first guy, and I think there was a chance to do it about 20 years ago, but we let it slip by. Not going to happen here for many, many moons, if ever. Heard an old story that back in the late 80's, when the Dallas Cowboys were really, really bad, that the Gaylords were engineering a plan to move them from Irving to a new stadium to be built west of I-35 in Norman, but that obviously didn't happen...

I
First, neither Oklahoma collegiate football venue could be used for an NFL franchise, primarily due to the fact that beer and alcohol sales are illegal in either venue (Norman or Stillwater). It'd take an act of the Legislature to change it. To quote Gundy "thats not true" in 2003 OU actually sold alcohol on club level. It would merely take act of Board of Regents if even that. Also, the legislature would likely bend over for the NFL in the same way they did w/ quality job incentives for NBA.

There was a long discussion about the same thing a few months ago.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=26882&page=1

This was discussed and there was an excellent study showing that a city needs about 1 million people per pro team to support them adequately (which is why cities like Denver and KC were overstretched). 1 team is perfect for OKC. An MLS team in Tulsa would possbily work since Tulsa has almost 1 million people and no significant (not counting WNBA) pro team that is a far better bet.

There was a long discussion about the same thing a few months ago.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=26882&page=1

It seems we have this thread every 3 or 4 months here. Search feature is amazing. Of course the OP even actively participated in it as well. So I don't see why we are rehashing things.

2020 or 2030,by then maybe!The way OKC is growing it might be possible by then.Tulsa's best bet is the NHL in the future.

Agree with this. IF OKC continues and/or improves its upward trajectory towards improved quality of life and population growth toward the 2-2.3M range then maybe, but that's a ways off.

To quote Gundy "thats not true" in 2003 OU actually sold alcohol on club level. It would merely take act of Board of Regents if even that. Also, the legislature would likely bend over for the NFL in the same way they did w/ quality job incentives for NBA.

Nope. There was a huge stink when OU announced it would not sell alcohol in the suites because of state law. Alcohol can be served by private entities supplying their own stock. Several folks who had contributed supposedly threatened to sue, claiming OU had represented that alcohol would be available. Bottom line, no alcohol sales.

Is alcohol allowed to be sold in the Texas college stadiums? I would automatically assume, though, it's not allowed in Baylor's stadium.

An NFL team in Tulsa or Oklahoma City?

Mayor Mick Cornett wanted to put some type of stadium on the MAPS III short-list; however, it came in at number 10.

The success of the Oklahoma City Thunder has certainly turned heads and have eyes taking a second look at OKC.

Here is a report listing Oklahoma City as a potential future home for the NFL:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/844925-nfl-potential-cities-it-could-move-or-expand-to#/articles/844925-nfl-potential-cities-it-could-move-or-expand-to/page/7

1. Los Angeles
2. San Antonio
3. A second team in Los Angeles?
4. Toronto
5. Oklahoma City

Is it possible that MAPS IV (2017 momentum) will include a stadium which could become the future home of an NFL team? Currently there are not enough dollars to support a second Fab Four franchise in OKC; however, who knows the 2020 future for an NFL franchise in one of the Sooner States top two cities (Oklahoma City, Tulsa).

1. What type of facility would we need?
2. What are our projections for 2020?
3. Could Gaylord Family Oklahoma Memorial Stadium be used as a temporary home?

We didn't expect the New Orleans Hornets to make Oklahoma City our temporary home--their temporary relocation brought out the best in Oklahoma.

Is Oklahoma City or Tulsa poised to take the next step?

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

Concerning # 3. Do you really think an NFL team would play in a facility that old that does not allow beer sales? Additionally when the Outlaws(USFL) tried to lease the stadium for summer play it was shot down. Ya really think the regents would go for the stadium being used non-stop in the fall?

Is alcohol allowed to be sold in the Texas college stadiums? I would automatically assume, though, it's not allowed in Baylor's stadium.

Seems a few years back, CO. was the only facility that had beer sales in the Big 12.

We noticed lots of talk about bringing NFL to OKC. Curious on what the name would be or where would you put the stadium?

As far as NFL teams coming to OKC, I do think its possible within the next 10 years. By 2020, the Oklahoma City MSA would be around 1.4 million, and OKC population would be around 700,000, that's a large enough population base to support an NFL. Moreover, the population base gets larger if you include metro areas within 2 hours driving distance with fans that will attend games from Wichita and Tulsa metro areas. Also, you could get a decent fan base from rural cities in Oklahoma. As far as stadium, it would roughly take about 2-3 years to construct decent sized stadium. The City could easily conduct funds through public/private investment to build a stadium. They could start constructing it in 2018 and could be operational by 2021. If we didn't have the AHL called the OKC Barons, I would name the NFL team the Oklahoma City Barons, but since that name is taken, I would go with the Oklahoma City Buffaloes/Bison

I would put that stadium on the Southeast side of the new I-40 Crosstown, where the Pull-A-Part scrap metal yard is currently located. This is a great location as it is close to the river, and immediate access to the interstate, and will enhance a dilapidated area. Or the the Producers COOP site is good location also!

As far as NFL teams coming to OKC, I do think its possible within the next 10 years. By 2020, the Oklahoma City MSA would be around 1.4 million, and OKC population would be around 700,000, that's a large enough population base to support an NFL. Moreover, the population base gets larger if you include metro areas within 2 hours driving distance with fans that will attend games from Wichita and Tulsa metro areas. Also, you could get a decent fan base from rural cities in Oklahoma. As far as stadium, it would roughly take about 2-3 years to construct decent sized stadium. The City could easily conduct funds through public/private investment to build a stadium. They could start constructing it in 2018 and could be operational by 2021. If we didn't have the AHL called the OKC Barons, I would name the NFL team the Oklahoma City Barons, but since that name is taken, I would go with the Oklahoma City Buffaloes/Bison

Are there any metro areas that small (1.4 million'ish) that have both an NBA team and an NFL team?

What is the smallest market to have both?

Edit: I think I have answered my own questions:

No.

The smallest market I can find with teams in both the NBA and NFL are Indianapolis and Charlotte, which each have metro populations of about 1.75 million.

Oops. I overlooked New Orleans. But as mentioned below the NBA team is in a world of hurt.

And according to the study that has been referenced before of economic ability to support teams, Charlotte ranks No. 19 among 20 markets that lack the financial ability to adequately support their big-league franchises and Indianapolis ranks no. 15 of the 20 overextended markets. New Orleans is the 10th most overextended city.

As far as NFL teams coming to OKC, I do think its possible within the next 10 years. By 2020, the Oklahoma City MSA would be around 1.4 million, and OKC population would be around 700,000, that's a large enough population base to support an NFL.

A study cited in this thread illustrated that you need a population base of about one million people per professional sports franchise to make them work. Even the 2020 population base, assuming that 1m/franchise remained constant, wouldn't sniff that figure.

I think people are losing sight of the drastic differences in financial scope between an NBA franchise and an NFL franchise. And considering that a stadium showed up somewhere around 10th on the list of "priorities" for the MAPS polling people, I think its easy to see public sentiment for financing such a facility would be weak at best - and any such support would likely evaporate once the price tag in the range of $750M-$1B gets out there.

About 35 years ago, gov Henry Bellmon floated the idea of a 65K seat domed stadium near the fairgrounds, but when it became apparent there was zero public sentiment for it, he scaled it down to something like a 20K multipurpose facility, and the proposal failed miserably.

I just don't think an NFL franchise is a feasible fiscal option for OKC anytime in the near future. There's a cap to the amount of corporate and personal monies available for facility construction, sponsorships, and tickets.

New Orleans has NBA and NFL teams. The NBA team is struggling and will probably be moved when the league sells it.

According to the 2000 Census Charlotte had roughly 1.3 million people in their metro, and had both NBA/NFL.

New Orleans has NBA and NFL teams. The NBA team is struggling and will probably be moved when the league sells it.

+1

And if you want to go by CSA, by 2020 that puts OKC in the 1.5 range...

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

Look how the Thunder has taken away from OU and OSU basketball attendance (granted the teams are comparatively dismal since the days of Sampson & Sutton). There's not enough wealth to go around to support all these athletic ventures. Then again, who knows. I just think we need a much larger population base, at least 2 1/2 times what it is now.

Like the idea of using the football stadium to increase the appeal of an area. That location does need some help. Barons does sound like a great name for a football team. Hopefully soon others will see the benefits of a football team. It would greatly help downtown OKC grow and bring in new business. Also tourism from Texas for football games would help OKC too.

The next city to get an NFL team is LA. And that won't happen until maybe the late 2010's.

If OKC was able to swing an NFL team, we would have a market size comparable to Jacksonville or NOLA. The Jags will probably bail in the next 5 years, and it took a freak of nature quarterback and improbable super bowl win to keep the Saints in NOLA. The funny thing is both Jax and NOLA have to compete with huge college followings similar to OKC.

Bottom line: not going to happen. Lets give the Thunder a bad season or two to see if pro sports in Oklahoma is truly viable.

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

And 1990 was 20 years ago, and I strongly suspect the per-franchise population total would be correspondingly smaller. The "investment" issue is a two-pronged sword - the underlying financial support to bring the team in, which comes from corporate sponsors and, perhaps, city incentives, and then the ongoing support to buy season tickets year in and year out. The size of the city most absolutely DOES matter, because it is the key factor in establishing the estimates of disposable income available for entertainment expenses like professional sports. We can put hearts and flowers on the notion all we want, but the ultimate reality comes down to dollars and people, and Oklahoma City doesn't have enough of either to support an NBA franchise AND and NFL franchise.

Additionally, the Panthers have the distinction of *owning* their stadium. It was financed with *zero* public dollars. I can't fathom that there is enough discretionary income in OK to subsidize that kind of project, which involved personal seat licenses a la Jerry Jones. Even if there were, I suspect that support might come at the expense of the NBA team. And I don't see broad support for a MAPS-style subsidized stadium.

Keep in mind that we got the arena downtown on the (extreme) cheap, and it was originally intended for NHL use, not NBA use. We also were in a fortunate position to have a vacant arena available when Katrina blew the Hornets out of New Orleans, and whetted the NBA's appetite for OKC (and vice versa). Those were fortuitous moments in OKC history, the dominoes aligning perfectly. It would take a great deal more of those dominoes for the NFL to happen.

Bottom line: not going to happen. Lets give the Thunder a bad season or two to see if pro sports in Oklahoma is truly viable.

Excellent point. I remember going to OU games in the mid-90's when things were bad, and that 75K-seat stadium that I had grown up accustomed to it being filled every week was barely over half full, endzones barely occupied, and sitting in my choice of upper-deck chairback seats. It was sad. The Athletic Department hemorrhaged money in those days because the football team wasn't bringing in the $$ to subsidize all the other sports.

The point being is that when the Thunder has a down year or two, which is bound to happen, it will be interesting to see what happens to fan support.

According to the 2000 Census Charlotte had roughly 1.3 million people in their metro, and had both NBA/NFL.

That is false. In the 2000 census the Charlotte metropolitan area had 1.5 million people.

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

The Charlotte Hornets started playing in the 1988-89 season, when Charlotte's' metropolitan area was about 1.1 million. (1990 census had them at 1.162 million).

The Carolina Panthers started playing in 1995, when Charlotte's metro population stood at about 1.3 million, a little beyond "barely tipping 1 million".

It's also certainly noteworthy that one NBA team moved out of Charlotte a while after the NFL came to town.

Since that time, Charlotte has grown rapidly to 1.75 million people and is still ranked as overextended.

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

The Hornets left Charlotte in 2002, so there was only about 7 years overlap for the two teams. The Hornets have been in New Orleans since 2002 (minus 2 years spent here). Considering the most likely scenario is yet another move, it doesn't reflect well on small market cities with multiple teams.

I would much rather be San Antonio (one franchise, very well supported) than Charlotte (lost NBA) or Atlanta (multiple teams, support varies even with large population base, just lost NHL team). There is a huge difference between 18,203 per game (NBA) than over 60,000 per game (NFL). Sixteen teams have stadiums between 60,000 and 70,000 seats, with two (Candlestick in SF and Metrodome in Minneapolis) facing immediate replacement and three (StL, Jax, Oakland) facing at least the threat of relocation.

This is a nice thing to think about, but reality should be easy to find: OKC is growing and growing fast, but not into the realm of supporting the monster that is the NFL. Tickets are not cheap, anywhere. A new stadium is in the high hundreds of millions of dollars, generally requires PSLs before tickets are even bought, and concessions are some of the highest of any entertainment industry in the country. It is out of our league right not, and honestly, that is ok. There are 32 NFL teams. New York and the Bay Area each have two, so only 30 markets have one. We aren't LA. Let's get another million people before we start talking about this like it could happen.

And if you want to go by CSA, by 2020 that puts OKC in the 1.5 range...

And Charlotte's CSA is currently 2.4 million. Indianapolis's (the other small, overexteded market) current CSA population is 2.1 million.

The Hornets left Charlotte in 2002, so there was only about 7 years overlap for the two teams. The Hornets have been in New Orleans since 2002 (minus 2 years spent here). Considering the most likely scenario is yet another move, it doesn't reflect well on small market cities with multiple teams.

I would much rather be San Antonio (one franchise, very well supported) than Charlotte (lost NBA) or Atlanta (multiple teams, support varies even with large population base, just lost NHL team). There is a huge difference between 18,203 per game (NBA) than over 60,000 per game (NFL). Sixteen teams have stadiums between 60,000 and 70,000 seats, with two (Candlestick in SF and Metrodome in Minneapolis) facing immediate replacement and three (StL, Jax, Oakland) facing at least the threat of relocation.

This is a nice thing to think about, but reality should be easy to find: OKC is growing and growing fast, but not into the realm of supporting the monster that is the NFL. Tickets are not cheap, anywhere. A new stadium is in the high hundreds of millions of dollars, generally requires PSLs before tickets are even bought, and concessions are some of the highest of any entertainment industry in the country. It is out of our league right not, and honestly, that is ok. There are 32 NFL teams. New York and the Bay Area each have two, so only 30 markets have one. We aren't LA. Let's get another million people before we start talking about this like it could happen.

7 years is a long time to have 2 pro sports teams, moreover, the Charlotte Bobcats came shortly after that in 2004. Nonetheless, my point is that Charlotte was able to sustain and NBA/NFL team with a metro population under 1.5M.

7 years is a long time to have 2 pro sports teams, moreover, the Charlotte Bobcats came shortly after that in 2004. Nonetheless, my point is that Charlotte was able to sustain and NBA/NFL team with a metro population under 1.5M.

The problem with your point is that they apparently were not able to sustain NBA/NFL teams with a metro population under 1.5 million; hence the Hornets moved out.

By 2004, when the Bobcats started, the metro Charlotte population was up to 1.5 million. And again, even with another 250,000 people added since then, they are still one of the metro areas that is "overextended".

And you are also conveniently ignoring that Charlotte's CSA adds a huge chunk of additional population... another 1/2 million+.

We could go back and forth about this all afternoon, but I do think by 2020 Oklahoma City could support and NBA/NFL team. You have made some good points though, and you are entitled to your own opinion, I guess we have to wait until 2020, lol.

Nope. There was a huge stink when OU announced it would not sell alcohol in the suites because of state law. Alcohol can be served by private entities supplying their own stock. Several folks who had contributed supposedly threatened to sue, claiming OU had represented that alcohol would be available. Bottom line, no alcohol sales.

Dont think it has anything to do with state law, OSU sells alcohol in the club level of Boone Pickens Stadium. Not much to do with this story but incoming big 12 school West Virginia sells alcohol throughout the entire stadium.

Dont think it has anything to do with state law, OSU sells alcohol in the club level of Boone Pickens Stadium. Not much to do with this story but incoming big 12 school West Virginia sells alcohol throughout the entire stadium.

Its been a state law issue for as long as I can remember. In fact, OU reportedly turned down a multi-million-dollar advertising/sponsorship agreement with a major beer outfit several years ago for precisely the same reason....

Its been a state law issue for as long as I can remember. In fact, OU reportedly turned down a multi-million-dollar advertising/sponsorship agreement with a major beer outfit several years ago for precisely the same reason....

Well then I guess OSU is breaking the law. Or more likely OSU is selling it in a way that is considered legal.

Look how the Thunder has taken away from OU and OSU basketball attendance (granted the teams are comparatively dismal since the days of Sampson & Sutton). There's not enough wealth to go around to support all these athletic ventures. Then again, who knows. I just think we need a much larger population base, at least 2 1/2 times what it is now.

So you realized that the attendance drop was due to the teams being terrible the last couple years, but went on to try and make it sound like it was the Thunder anyway.

Well then I guess OSU is breaking the law. Or more likely OSU is selling it in a way that is considered legal.

As far as I know, it is an NCAA rule and violation to sell alcohol. There is no way that West Virginia sells alcohol legally. As far as I know, the only reason it could be done legally is if the school in question holds their games in a professional venue. We all know that bowl games sell alcohol. Big XII Tourney games sell alcohol. But if it's at a school, it will not happen--for the general public. Those in suites, yes. Cause my complaint is if I paid $1,400 for a suite ticket I better damn well be getting to drink free alcohol!

So you realized that the attendance drop was due to the teams being terrible the last couple years, but went on to try and make it sound like it was the Thunder anyway.

Basically, all I was saying is that it's really hard for alumni or fan of said programs to spread their wealth out between their college and their pro sports franchise, especially since the median household income of OKC is something like $35,000. So, think about adding a football team?

As far as I know, it is an NCAA rule and violation to sell alcohol. There is no way that West Virginia sells alcohol legally. As far as I know, the only reason it could be done legally is if the school in question holds their games in a professional venue. We all know that bowl games sell alcohol. Big XII Tourney games sell alcohol. But if it's at a school, it will not happen--for the general public. Those in suites, yes. Cause my complaint is if I paid $1,400 for a suite ticket I better damn well be getting to drink free alcohol!

That is not correct. The NCAA has no rule about alcohol being sold at games, except for NCAA championship events.

Dont think it has anything to do with state law, OSU sells alcohol in the club level of Boone Pickens Stadium. Not much to do with this story but incoming big 12 school West Virginia sells alcohol throughout the entire stadium.

I think they only sell 3.2 beer. The following is copied and pasted from OSU's website:

Alcoholic Beverages – Suite Level

Alcoholic beverages are not permitted to move in between Suite & Club Levels – either direction.
Alcoholic beverages within the stadium, fall under either 3.2% & below OR above 3.2% by volume. Low-point beer represents 3.2% & below / High-point beer, wine, spirits, liquors, and other similar products represent above 3.2%.
Low-point beer (3.2% & below alcohol) is not included in any Base Package - additional charges apply under certain restrictions. OSU Cowboy Dining retains all permits & licenses required for exclusive rights to provide all 3.2% & below alcoholic product. Orders for such product must be submitted by the Tuesday before each game day, and will be stocked into your suite after payment approval.
In the case of requiring additional 3.2% product during an event, ordering & processing must occur via your suite attendant. However, Cowboy Dining does not maintain a large inventory of 3.2% product so there can be no guarantee that your additional order can be fulfilled.
Please note - there are 2 policies regarding the service & billing of 3.2% product that are unique to this product only. Inventory transport restrictions, return policies, and expiration dates must all be considered when establishing stock within each suite. Cowboy Dining will provide inventory levels after the 5th – 8th home game of the season, or at any time upon request. No refunds will be awarded for 3.2% & below alcoholic product, regardless of situation.

Once ordered & processed, 3.2% product has been paid for (“owned”) by the Suiteholder; however, Cowboy Dining retains storage & inventory responsibility. No 3.2% product that has been purchased through Cowboy Dining may be removed from BPS at any time.
3.2% product that is “ordered” on a game day will be immediately charged directly to the suite holder’s information on file. Transfer of funds – cash, check, credit, or other – will not be allowed on gameday. If an alternate payment option is required, details must be arranged the week prior.
Alcoholic product above 3.2% by volume – high point beer, wine, spirits, etc - remains the sole responsibilityof the suite holder through the purchase, stocking, serving, and inventory process. Oklahoma State University, OSU Cowboy Dining, and all related support organizations cannot - by law – become involved in any capacity for this type of alcoholic product.

Alcohol service guidelines will be determined on an event-by-event basis by Oklahoma State University. All laws pertaining to the service of alcoholic beverages will be enforced, including regulations concerning the consumption of alcohol by minors or intoxicated persons. OSU Cowboy Dining and Oklahoma State University reserve the right to check for proper identification and to refuse or terminate service at any time. All alcoholic beverages are to remain in your suite, and are not welcome on the public concourse.

As far as NFL teams coming to OKC, I do think its possible within the next 10 years. By 2020, the Oklahoma City MSA would be around 1.4 million, and OKC population would be around 700,000, that's a large enough population base to support an NFL. Moreover, the population base gets larger if you include metro areas within 2 hours driving distance with fans that will attend games from Wichita and Tulsa metro areas. Also, you could get a decent fan base from rural cities in Oklahoma. As far as stadium, it would roughly take about 2-3 years to construct decent sized stadium. The City could easily conduct funds through public/private investment to build a stadium. They could start constructing it in 2018 and could be operational by 2021. If we didn't have the AHL called the OKC Barons, I would name the NFL team the Oklahoma City Barons, but since that name is taken, I would go with the Oklahoma City Buffaloes/Bison

Disagree. According to detailed studies, you need 1 million per pro sports team. OKC will need to get to 2 million...so maybe in 50 years.

We could go back and forth about this all afternoon, but I do think by 2020 Oklahoma City could support and NBA/NFL team. You have made some good points though, and you are entitled to your own opinion, I guess we have to wait until 2020, lol.

So we don't have to go back and forth anymore... You're wrong.

That is not correct. The NCAA has no rule about alcohol being sold at games, except for NCAA championship events.

Ok Oil Capital, thanks for adding me to your list of people who need to be corrected because they didn't do their research on the internet. Much appreciated, lol

The NFL is a bigger animal than the NBA, and you can't use the Thunder's success as evidence that an NFL team would do well. NFL takes more capital on both the ownership level and fan level. OKC has a lot more growth to do before it even gets to "outside chance."

Ok Oil Capital, thanks for adding me to your list of people who need to be corrected because they didn't do their research on the internet. Much appreciated, lol

LOL I was a little confused about that issue too. I thought I had recently read that selling alcohol at college games was not allowed by the NCAA. But a quick search showed that to not be the case.

Excellent point. I remember going to OU games in the mid-90's when things were bad, and that 75K-seat stadium that I had grown up accustomed to it being filled every week was barely over half full, endzones barely occupied, and sitting in my choice of upper-deck chairback seats. It was sad. The Athletic Department hemorrhaged money in those days because the football team wasn't bringing in the $$ to subsidize all the other sports.

The point being is that when the Thunder has a down year or two, which is bound to happen, it will be interesting to see what happens to fan support.

It's not that important as it pertains to this thread but I've been going to OU games for almost 50 years. Your rememberance of the 1990's is a little off. The lowest attendance for any game during that decade was 54,463 and no other games were under 60,000. All other games were at least in the 60-65 thousand range. Was there a downturn? Off course, but nothing like you stated. Now in a year like 1996 when we lost at home to Nebraska 73 - 21 it's very likely that the stadium got very empty later during the game.

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/seasons1990s.html

I think they only sell 3.2 beer.


Not true. I bought several gin and tonics in the Club Level at Boone Pickens Stadium this year. Also, alcohol is available at NCAA Championships if you are in a suite. They just ask that you do not take the beverage out of your suite.

Not true. I bought several gin and tonics in the Club Level at Boone Pickens Stadium this year. Also, alcohol is available at NCAA Championships if you are in a suite. They just ask that you do not take the beverage out of your suite.

Then I guess OSU is flat-out lying on their own website.

Alcohol being available in a suite is not the same as alcohol being sold at a game. In the same manner, alcohol can be available in OSU suites if the suite-holder/owner brings it in and serves it.

Oklahoma City will probably be projected to have anywhere from 1.5 to 1.750 by 2020. This city has picked up its growth pace as of late.

There will be over 4 million people within a 100-mile radius of Oklahoma City come 2020. I realize that the NFL's standard are different from the NBA's.

Our metro-area increased by roughly 200,000 from 2000 to 2010. Will will probably increase by 250,000 to 350,000 over this next census period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Ar eas

Los Angeles, Portland and San Antonio are markets which have the population base to support an NFL franchise.

Los Angeles currently doesn't have a stadium with amenities to support the NFL--they could provide temporary support until an NFL-ready stadium is built.

Portland doesn't have a stadium that could provide temporary support. The City of Portland recently purchased the Rose Garden which was built by Paul Allen and the City of Portland for the NBA Trailblazers. Portland Rose Garden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Garden_(arena).


San Antonio does have the 'Alamodome," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamodome. They are in a position to welcome a relocation franchise. This stadium was built in 1993 and will be 20-years old come 2013.

Sometime around 2020, Oklahoma City needs to be in a position to welcome an NFL franchise should one become available. Oklahoma City's only chance of getting a relocation franchise would be the temporary use of 85,000-seat Gaylord Family Oklahoma Memorial Stadium on the condition that there are concrete plans to build a permanent facility in Oklahoma City to house an NFL franchise. Mayor Cornett and the City does have plans to put some type of stadium on the MAPS IV 2017 ballot and keep the momentum going.

We will definitely need a stadium which could be expanded and a roof added later. We will need to start out with an outdoor facility with a minimum seating capacity of 50,000 - 60,000 costing in the neighborhood of $300 million; something that could be expanded and a roof added if necessary. As we did with the downtown arena "MAPS FOR HOOPS" prior to the NBA falling in our laps, an extension could be added to increase seating to 75-80,000-plus and add a retractable roof.

Keep in mind that we are talking about the future. I understand that this probably won't happen with some of you in your lifetime. I heard this same phrase being said in the 90s before Oklahoma City secured an NBA franchise in 2006.

We need to be READY!

Then include plans for a stadium for the next MAPS vote. Maybe some metro area with a NFL team is declining in population and/or fan support and will soon be needing to look for a new home.

it's good to plan ahead... But I think you are jumping the gun, by at least a decade. We may make it to 1.5 million by 2020, but it requires a substantial jump in our growth rate. What is the evidence that the growth rate has increased substantially? There is almost zero chance of getting to 1.75 million by 2020. That would require growth of almost 40%!!

As far as I know, it is an NCAA rule and violation to sell alcohol. There is no way that West Virginia sells alcohol legally. As far as I know, the only reason it could be done legally is if the school in question holds their games in a professional venue. We all know that bowl games sell alcohol. Big XII Tourney games sell alcohol. But if it's at a school, it will not happen--for the general public. Those in suites, yes. Cause my complaint is if I paid $1,400 for a suite ticket I better damn well be getting to drink free alcohol!

this is so wrong i don't know where to start ...

Then I guess OSU is flat-out lying on their own website.

Alcohol being available in a suite is not the same as alcohol being sold at a game. In the same manner, alcohol can be available in OSU suites if the suite-holder/owner brings it in and serves it.

No OSU is not flat out lying. You are looking at the wrong information. The Suite Level and Club Levels at OSU are completely separate. The info you posted regarding the Suite Level is correct. If they want to have liquor in their suite then they buy it through Cowboy Dining and it is charged to the suite owner.

In the CLUB LEVEL, there is a big bar where you can buy any beer, liquor or wine of your choice. Can even take shots if you desire. So try looking up the correct information and informing yourself before you just say OSU, WV, OU etc are just flat out breaking the law. "As far as I know" doesnt mean you know.

Lighten up dude. You could have provided that helpful information in response to my post from the OSU website, instead of just saying "not true."

Just trying to figure out if it's truly not allowed under the law and if OSU is somehow getting around the law. Still not sure... I noticed now on the OSU website that it says club seat holders can contact Cowboy Dining to set up a "tab" at the club level bar. Is that a way to avoid "selling" alcohol on the premises?

Lighten up dude. You could have provided that helpful information in response to my post from the OSU website, instead of just saying "not true."

Just trying to figure out if it's truly not allowed under the law and if OSU is somehow getting around the law. Still not sure... I noticed now on the OSU website that it says club seat holders can contact Cowboy Dining to set up a "tab" at the club level bar. Is that a way to avoid "selling" alcohol on the premises?

A tab is only a variation on how you are paying, instead of having to pay when each individual item is received, you pay for all off them at the end of the night or whatever period they allow before payment is due. So it would still be served, sold and likely payed on the premises.