View Full Version : Education about law basics



SoonerDave
01-05-2012, 08:47 AM
Just a few musings here after reading some posts dealing with legal issues...

Seems to me there's an appalling lack of education among younger (and, to be sure, some older) folks about the basic mechanics of how our legal system works. I'm thinking primarily in terms of day-to-day business operations, contract law, warranties, things of that nature. Almost everything that gets passed around anecdotally about things like "cooling off periods" or "lemon laws" is wrong, and people don't seem to grasp things like "as-is" really meaning "as-is."

It surely seems to me that part of a high school education across the country should be a mandatory if basic understanding of what constitutes a contract, the difference(s) between implied and express warranties, what it means to be obligated by a contract, or to breach a contract, rights and responsibilities under things like rental agreements, things of that nature. Things that involve fairly common elements of day-to-day life.

Now, mind you, I'm not suggesting we churn out a generation of lawyers, or try to bury them in legal minutiae or making them memorize the Uniform Commercial Code or anything that draconian. I think a great many people truly don't understand that, for example, signing a contract is legally binding them to certain terms; that a car sold "as-is" has zero warranty from the seller. In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that we are failing to provide our kids with even a minimum level of competency in the basic mechanics of our legal system, which should be fundamental for any young adult participating in society. That failure creates a whole additional layer of inefficiency in our economic society we've never even begun to measure.

I know, we're struggling to get kids literate, education is struggling, surely understand all of that. I'm just wondering how something that, to me, seems pretty basic has gone largely unnoticed over the years.

Any thoughts?

BDK
01-05-2012, 09:00 AM
That sounds like it could be a good part of a general life skills class. I think a lot of folks have been advocating for such a course in high school. Count me among them (though I am just a youngster myself). Certainly kids need to learn about personal finance, credit, the severity and lasting lifelong impact of offenses such as DUI or drug possession, and the legal issues you have just mentioned.

Coincidentally, I watched Waiting for "Superman," a documentary on public education the other day, which was fairly depressing. To me, to fix the problem will take ideas from both sides of the aisle. Teachers unions, or a least their current practices, ought to be broken up in in order to remove failing teachers and we have to increase funding to schools to attract capable individuals to become teachers. I also think school should be year round outside of true-blue farming communities.

Anyway, sounds like a good idea to me, Dave.

RadicalModerate
01-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Sounds like an excellent idea to me . . .
At least with some "education" regarding topics (such as those mentioned, above) people might not respond with, "one of those little pie sorta deals with apples or whatever" when asked what a tort is.

kevinpate
01-05-2012, 09:20 AM
The whole sticker on the window that gets marked AS IS or marked to some level of warranty included came about because back in the day. and that's really not that long ago, it was decided people were no longer smart enough to know if you buy used, you buy it with its problems, or not, whatever they might be. So it was decided to spoon feed folks. Now we need to use bigger, deeper spoons? Where or where will we be in the 2020's ... knowledge IV's?

RadicalModerate
01-05-2012, 09:34 AM
More likely, the implanted microchip.
With "The Paper Chase" app.

OKCTalker
01-05-2012, 09:52 AM
I'm fighting these battles at home with my daughter. How to establish and maintain good credit. How to pick a career (and college) that will be rewarding and pay the bills. How to understand compounded interest and amortization. The legal system (civil and criminal). Etc...

When I succeed with her, I'll be sure to turn my focus to others!

Midtowner
01-05-2012, 04:04 PM
Just a few musings here after reading some posts dealing with legal issues...

Seems to me there's an appalling lack of education among younger (and, to be sure, some older) folks about the basic mechanics of how our legal system works. I'm thinking primarily in terms of day-to-day business operations, contract law, warranties, things of that nature. Almost everything that gets passed around anecdotally about things like "cooling off periods" or "lemon laws" is wrong, and people don't seem to grasp things like "as-is" really meaning "as-is."

It surely seems to me that part of a high school education across the country should be a mandatory if basic understanding of what constitutes a contract, the difference(s) between implied and express warranties, what it means to be obligated by a contract, or to breach a contract, rights and responsibilities under things like rental agreements, things of that nature. Things that involve fairly common elements of day-to-day life.

Now, mind you, I'm not suggesting we churn out a generation of lawyers, or try to bury them in legal minutiae or making them memorize the Uniform Commercial Code or anything that draconian. I think a great many people truly don't understand that, for example, signing a contract is legally binding them to certain terms; that a car sold "as-is" has zero warranty from the seller. In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that we are failing to provide our kids with even a minimum level of competency in the basic mechanics of our legal system, which should be fundamental for any young adult participating in society. That failure creates a whole additional layer of inefficiency in our economic society we've never even begun to measure.

I know, we're struggling to get kids literate, education is struggling, surely understand all of that. I'm just wondering how something that, to me, seems pretty basic has gone largely unnoticed over the years.

Any thoughts?

Contracts aren't complicated. If you sign something saying you're buying a car "as-is," then it is what it is. We're not talking legal incompetence, we're talking about something much more serious than that, i.e., reading comprehension issues. Most consumers won't have to deal much with the UCC as it mostly works for sales of goods between merchants (or that may be all it works for, I haven't had to talk about the UCC much in my practice).

I mean.. say you get sued, you get a summons that says you have to respond to this in 20 days or you'll be held in default. What is complicated about that? It's basic reading comprehension.

This is about literacy and personal responsibility. Nothing more than that.

Blame the schools and blame retail stores with "customer service" attitudes (e.g., Wal Mart) who will let you return just about anything, any time, with no receipt. I guarantee you--if all sales were final, we'd have a different sort of society when it came to legal literacy.

PennyQuilts
01-05-2012, 06:18 PM
I think part of the problem is that so many people are ignorant of these things and haven't been specifically taught them. Now, that sounds like a no brainer but our culture has changed from the basic premise of "buyer beware" and the importance of protecting your good name in the community, to the notion that nothing is going to hurt you, no one is going to con you, you can always get your money back and the like. So in the absence of being specifically taught how things really work, kids assume there are implied guarantees, and that contracts aren't really binding once they doesn't benefit them. Case in point - once a car is worth less than they owe on it, a lot of kids are stunned because that doesn't seem fair. The notion that they entered a contract and that sometimes you have to do the right thing even when it hurts, isn't on the radar.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
01-05-2012, 11:33 PM
I think that if you teach kids about the law and all this lawyerin' rubbish...They'll want contracts on everything. I shouldn't need to sign a form to buy a set of genuine McDonald's collector Christmas glasses from 1987 off of Craigslist...But that's what will happen.

Screw 'em. Let them get their lumps the hard way like the rest of us.

SoonerDave
01-06-2012, 07:46 AM
Contracts aren't complicated. If you sign something saying you're buying a car "as-is," then it is what it is. We're not talking legal incompetence, we're talking about something much more serious than that, i.e., reading comprehension issues. Most consumers won't have to deal much with the UCC as it mostly works for sales of goods between merchants (or that may be all it works for, I haven't had to talk about the UCC much in my practice).

I mean.. say you get sued, you get a summons that says you have to respond to this in 20 days or you'll be held in default. What is complicated about that? It's basic reading comprehension.

This is about literacy and personal responsibility. Nothing more than that.

Blame the schools and blame retail stores with "customer service" attitudes (e.g., Wal Mart) who will let you return just about anything, any time, with no receipt. I guarantee you--if all sales were final, we'd have a different sort of society when it came to legal literacy.

Very interesting perspective, Midtowner, and I'll admit it surprises me a bit. I would have thought a practicing lawyer would encourage more basic legal education, but I also see your point.

While I certainly understand and, to an extent, agree with much of your response - particularly your assertion about reading issues (and that can spin off into an entirely different thread about education in general), I think there's still a case to be made for some basic legal education.

For example, I think a great many people don't understand what signing a contract means. They don't understand the obligation that goes along with it. As a consequence, I think of the immense amount of time wasted in small claims courts over people suing a seller over a used car that "blew up" in some way two days after they bought it, then expect the seller to either repair it or take it back and refund their money. Most of those cases are DOA the moment they're filed, yet there's what you'd call the "civic overhead" in having the claim heard and adjudicated.

Now, in that vein, I agree completely that our retail mentality has created a expectation of returning next to anything, but that's also why I think a basic legal education would be useful - separating notions and perceptions from how the controlling law actually works. I certainly understand the notion about how attitudes would change if "all sales were final," but the UCC arose at least in part from unscrupulous vendors who were selling junk products with no accountability for it. I'm not sure we really want the pendulum to swing back that far.

Beyond that, the basic legal education would also help people understand things like the existence of a contract even in the absence of a formal writing, eg a cash transaction for, say, a used car from a private seller. Most people don't realize that's a contract, and even further, they don't realize the sale is implicitly as-is, and, for that matter, may not even fully understand what "as-is" or "with all faults" means legally.

You make good points about the reading/comprehension issues. Still think a broader "Legal Basics 101" would be useful, however.

SoonerDave
01-06-2012, 07:51 AM
I think part of the problem is that so many people are ignorant of these things and haven't been specifically taught them. Now, that sounds like a no brainer but our culture has changed from the basic premise of "buyer beware" and the importance of protecting your good name in the community, to the notion that nothing is going to hurt you, no one is going to con you, you can always get your money back and the like. So in the absence of being specifically taught how things really work, kids assume there are implied guarantees, and that contracts aren't really binding once they doesn't benefit them. Case in point - once a car is worth less than they owe on it, a lot of kids are stunned because that doesn't seem fair. The notion that they entered a contract and that sometimes you have to do the right thing even when it hurts, isn't on the radar.

Good points, PQ. I agree that people aren't being taught them - and, as Midtowner pointed out, that goes a great deal to basic reading comprehension, too. Its a mixed bag.

You are absolutely right in that today's kids feel entitled to guarantees that don't exist legally, and perhaps that best crystallizes my whole assertion about the importance of a basic understanding of how things really do work legally. If you can keep a few cases out of the courts, with a bit of education, it benefits the citizen and the broader society in the long run.

RadicalModerate
01-06-2012, 08:35 AM
Judge Judy to Complainant: "You do realize that 'possession is nine-tenths of the law' . . ."
Complainant: "Is that, like, a little over half?"

OKCMallen
01-11-2012, 08:56 AM
Just a few musings here after reading some posts dealing with legal issues...

Seems to me there's an appalling lack of education among younger (and, to be sure, some older) folks about the basic mechanics of how our legal system works. I'm thinking primarily in terms of day-to-day business operations, contract law, warranties, things of that nature. Almost everything that gets passed around anecdotally about things like "cooling off periods" or "lemon laws" is wrong, and people don't seem to grasp things like "as-is" really meaning "as-is."

It surely seems to me that part of a high school education across the country should be a mandatory if basic understanding of what constitutes a contract, the difference(s) between implied and express warranties, what it means to be obligated by a contract, or to breach a contract, rights and responsibilities under things like rental agreements, things of that nature. Things that involve fairly common elements of day-to-day life.

Now, mind you, I'm not suggesting we churn out a generation of lawyers, or try to bury them in legal minutiae or making them memorize the Uniform Commercial Code or anything that draconian. I think a great many people truly don't understand that, for example, signing a contract is legally binding them to certain terms; that a car sold "as-is" has zero warranty from the seller. In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that we are failing to provide our kids with even a minimum level of competency in the basic mechanics of our legal system, which should be fundamental for any young adult participating in society. That failure creates a whole additional layer of inefficiency in our economic society we've never even begun to measure.

I know, we're struggling to get kids literate, education is struggling, surely understand all of that. I'm just wondering how something that, to me, seems pretty basic has gone largely unnoticed over the years.

Any thoughts?


There's a huge, huge problem with general ignorance of the law. Especially in regard to the Bill of Rights. Police routinely violate the 4th Amendment without anyone knowing.

kevinpate
01-11-2012, 12:23 PM
... Especially in regard to the Bill of Rights. Police routinely violate the 4th Amendment without anyone knowing.

Perhaps, though not nearly as often as the ease in which the general masses waive their rights w/o little knowledge of the consequences of their decisions.