Watching the video of the most recent City Council meeting it's clear that Councilman Shadid is intent on doing his own research and certainly not afraid to speak up against the majority.


In that last meeting, he asked a very good question: Why is the city borrowing money to pay Continental $7.2 million in incentives to do something (move to downtown OKC) that they would have done anyway? And why are they getting even more per job created than the companies that have received the previous awards?

He recounted how the whole relocation came to pass and offered lots of articles and quotes from Harold Hamm that strongly backed his case. This all fell on deaf ears and when the mayor quickly moved for consent on a bunch of items on their agenda and even blurted "passes unanimously" when the voting board clearly showed Shadid voting against, Shadid then had to ask for the Continental item to be considered separately, which was still approved 8 votes to his one dissent.


Earlier in that same meeting, he was the only one to ask questions regarding Project 180 and as soon as he did, Jim Couch and Mayor Mick both quickly spoke for Eric Wegner (Project Manager) and brushed aside Shadid's concerns without answering them directly.


This all seems to be a common pattern in these meetings and while Mr. Shadid is clearly very sharp and prepared, it appears the rest of the council merely rolls their eyes when he speaks.

You can also see the obvious group-think in these meetings, where there are a ton of items to approve and few even get discussed -- just quick approval. Shadid is always the one that says, "Hold on a second".


I'm sure many new politicians set off with the ideal they are going to change the world, only to have their spirit broken by the system in place. It will be interesting to see if Shadid keeps swinging.

My prediction is that he will do the latter.

My prediction is that he will do the latter.

:iagree:

Let's hope so.

I know Shadid is due diligent and is questioning the powers that be, but how would everyone on here feel if Continental Resources had chosen to relocate to Denver ?

I'm sure there were plenty of promises made prior to Hamm purchasing the old Devon headquarters by the city fathers. But with the expected X3 of CR's staff, and with the average salary of 165,000.00, and not if but when they become the next Devon or Chesapeake as they give back to the community, then the deal becomes more solid and understandible.

We hope.

I know Shadid is due diligent and is questioning the powers that be, but how would everyone on here feel if Continental Resources had chosen to relocate to Denver ?

I'm sure there were plenty of promises made prior to Hamm purchasing the old Devon headquarters by the city fathers. But with the expected X3 of CR's staff, and with the average salary of 165,000.00, and not if but when they become the next Devon or Chesapeake as they give back to the community, then the deal becomes more solid and understandible.

We hope.

That's an easy one, if the City had done nothing and Continental Resources had moved to Denver, the same ones complaining about the City spending the money would have been complaining because they didn't.

I know Shadid is due diligent and is questioning the powers that be, but how would everyone on here feel if Continental Resources had chosen to relocate to Denver ?

If you watch the City Council video you'll see that Shadid makes a very strong case that Continental was coming to OKC anyway and the incentive funds have absolutely nothing to do with it.

That's an easy one, if the City had done nothing and Continental Resources had moved to Denver, the same ones complaining about the City spending the money would have been complaining because they didn't.

I personally think all of the behind the scene deals were made before Shadid was elected, and it was just a follow through formality when the vote was taken, thus the incentive funds were kind of pre-applied.

If you watch the City Council video you'll see that Shadid makes a very strong case that Continental was coming to OKC anyway and the incentive funds have absolutely nothing to do with it.

This case may be that they were coming 'because the funds were pre- promised'.........a couple of years before he was elected.

If that was true you would expect the mayor or someone else on the council to raise that point, which they did not.

If you watch the City Council video you'll see that Shadid makes a very strong case that Continental was coming to OKC anyway and the incentive funds have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I think they made a point that eventually they would outgrow Enid, and move to the OKC area. However, they could have easily moved to some corporate campus in Edmond or Norman. Or even Tulsa.

As much as I hate corporate incentives that is how "the game" is played nowadays. If OKC didn't pony up someone else would have. Plus given the state of their oil plays in ND and the promising prospect of their expansion it will hopefully pay off soon for OKC.

As for Shadid, yes I have watched some of the council meetings. One time he grilled a presenter from a survey company over the cost of a survey. It was $30K I believe, which is pocket change for a city with an $800 million budget. This is something that nearly every city of size does, and should do, yet he couldn't understand why the city couldn't do a $150 robocall as if this would somehow give the same accurate results.

For what its worth, I don't think its anything other than genuine concern over the state of the city. But he has me scratching my head sometimes. I will withhold my judgement until I see more.

Could be the old 'secret handshake' deal................who knows

I think they made a point that eventually they would outgrow Enid, and move to the OKC area. However, they could have easily moved to some corporate campus in Edmond or Norman. Or even Tulsa.



Continental Resources came out and said they had incentive offers from OKC, Denver and Houston...........

Somebody help me with sequencing:
1) The incentive was already offered, and CR took what was on the table; or
2) CR decided to move to OKC, and THEN the incentive was offered.

I suspect that number 1 was the sequence, and if that's the case, then the smaller issue in this thread (the larger issue being smart people with relevant questions are being ignored) is that people disagree because CR "doesn't need" the money. They're trying to apply a means test, to which I disagree. My $0.02.

The larger issue - I admire people who ask uncomfortable questions and insist upon answers. Steve Lackmeyer is another. Bully for them, and good for us!

An incentive fund was approved by the voters at the time of the last bond election. CR is not receiving the money for moving here. The money is for the promised 400 new jobs that CR states that they will create once they are here. There is a formula based on the number of new jobs and the average starting salary that is used to calculate how much money a company is eligible for. CR and any company could easily find out what incentive they could be eligible for. The councilman seemed to infer that the city was cutting a special deal for CR when it had already been determined by the formula. Earlier this year Chesapeake was approved to receive about $3.5 from the same program. If I am aware of this I think that the councilman has to be too. It makes me wonder what his intent was.

Is the (so-called) "False Dichotomy"--offered in the Title of this Thread--intentional?
Is it only presented to highlight the perfect usage of "ideal" (as compared to "idea") in the last sentence?
Is it something else altogether? =)

Heck . . .
I'd vote for Ed Shadid . . .
Even if I only live a block away from being in his District.
Or even OKC, proper. =)

Almost forgot:
Is Honest Politician an Oxymoron?
Or just the people who vote for them?

It's been my observation over 22 years that the more challenging questions are asked, the better the results overall. But at the same time, Ed wasn't totally on target Tuesday. Not sure where he got the idea that many of the Continental employees will be commuting to and from Enid - everything I've heard from the beginning of this story indicates otherwise.

I'm sure many new politicians set off with the ideal they are going to change the world, only to have their spirit broken by the system in place.

I think Shadid's main concern IS the system. I really don't think he is trying to change what has been done or what will be done, as much as how it will be done. I think his main goal is transparency. I think he has a different perspective on city council as a governing body than most of his peers. Most of the city government operates with an assumption of mandate. They act as if, since they were elected, they can now operate any way they see fit with little responsibility towards open discourse. If Shadid is viewed as a hindrance or an annoyance, it is only because those individuals see public transparency and open accountability of government operations as such. I don't think he is trying to be a jerk or combative. I just get the sense that he feels that holding open public discussions about these issues is part of his responsibility as an elected official. It seems some feel that the only forum in which they need to discuss these matters is in press releases and sound bites that they can control, and that it is perfectly acceptable if most of these issues are decided long before there is any discussion or presentation in a public forum like council meetings.

Doug is right: Shadid keeps swinging, only with rapidly increasing level of experience and knowledge base.

The difference between CR and a Boeing, is that with CR one man, Harold Hamm owns 72% of the company. Ultimately it is his decision as to where to relocate the company. His stock in the company is worth $8 billion, has tripled in value in five short years (and is going to continue to increase substantially), and increased 5% or some $400 million in the one day this issue was discussed at council. The idea that a $7 million dollar draw from OKC taxpayers, paid over seven years, was a significant factor in his relocation to OKC, or his decision to add employees to the company that he would not have otherwise, is preposterous.

Even if not CR, isn't it possible that another company would decide that they want to relocate to OKC and add new jobs but demand tax subsidies from the 2007 pool of Bond money for no other reason other than it is available?

By relocating to Enid, isn't it possible that at least some of the employees from Enid would be able to keep their jobs. As Shadid pointed out, Hamm still has two companies in Enid. Relocating to OKC doesn't allow increased coordination between Hamm's three companies?

I know Shadid is due diligent and is questioning the powers that be, but how would everyone on here feel if Continental Resources had chosen to relocate to Denver ?

Oh come on. For a city hall to be playing these games and having to get the public to buy it is ridiculous. Usually it's the developer or business playing these games and having to get the city hall to buy it. But I guess we do things differently in the Cornett City Hall.

Somebody help me with sequencing:
1) The incentive was already offered, and CR took what was on the table; or
2) CR decided to move to OKC, and THEN the incentive was offered. ...

1) Is how it SHOULD work, you present the incentive BEFORE decisions are made (to tip it in your favor).
2) Is how this came about...similar to Boeing (and another one that I won't mention). According to City manager/staff AFTER Boeing made the announcement that they were going to negotiate the incentives. WTF? Wrong sequence. You don't offer "incentives" to "lure" someone that has already said they are coming anyway. As Couch often does, he spins, sidesteps and in some cases out right lies to the Council. He's shown a repeated pattern of behavior for a long time now (at least as long as he has been City manager, if not before). Before someone jumps all over me on this, others are seeing it happen too...including the owner/moderator of the forum.

i am not suggesting that anything was done illegally here in any way, but IF done illegally wouldn't the former be called a bribe and the later a kickback...LOL


An incentive fund was approved by the voters at the time of the last bond election. CR is not receiving the money for moving here. The money is for the promised 400 new jobs that CR states that they will create once they are here. There is a formula based on the number of new jobs and the average starting salary that is used to calculate how much money a company is eligible for. CR and any company could easily find out what incentive they could be eligible for. The councilman seemed to infer that the city was cutting a special deal for CR when it had already been determined by the formula. Earlier this year Chesapeake was approved to receive about $3.5 from the same program. If I am aware of this I think that the councilman has to be too. It makes me wonder what his intent was.
I am not saying what you are saying is incorrect, but if true, why has City manager/staff made statements that they were "negotiating" with X company when there isn't anything to negotiate? Company presents its "application", and then it is all a formula and you plug in the numbers???

Breath of fresh air or hindrance?
It is not really mutually exclusive and given the range of issues going at council their will be cases of one, the other or both. It is promising that he is passionate about the job, finding the issues and asking good questions but he was already somewhat on the outside just how he positioned what type a council person he promised to be in his campaign and the way the campaign against him went down. Though to really effect projects the time to do so is much earlier in the process than most of the things he has taken issue with, MAPS3 is really the first project he is actually positioned in early enough to get any kind of influence go into the process but still he got into fairly late when the projects & budgets were set and funded.

As Shadid pointed out, Hamm still has two companies in Enid. Relocating to OKC doesn't allow increased coordination between Hamm's three companies?

The two remaining companies are the field services branch, Hamm/Phillips I believe the name is, and a capitol financing company. The capitol company is just a handful of employees, whereas the field servicing company actually has a lot of employees spread out in the field. I don't see where a coordination issue would exist no matter where the headquarters is. And I suspect it won't be long until the financial unit is moved here also.

Part of what is going on here is a confusion of how this world really works.
There are two different discussions taking place here. One: is it right to offer incentives to lure new employers to town or assist existing employers in expansion? That's a valid debate, and I sure as heck won't take sides on it.
The second one, I believe, is where the confusion is taking place. So here's how the REAL world works: The ACME Widget Co. is looking at moving its headquarters. It's currently located in Smallville, Oklahoma, but it has outgrown Smallville. Now, there are some in state economic circles that the ACME Widget Co. will move to Houston, because that's where so many other widget companies have gathered. Houston has clobbered Oklahoma and stolen away some of the state's greatest legacy widget companies.
Other cities - Denver and Dallas most notably - are out to lure the ACME Widget Co. and they are throwing huge incentives to get them. The Greater OKC Chamber is out to compete in this game as well. They go to ACME Widget Co., and they PRIVATELY, outside of any public discussion, confirm with a couple of key city staffers and likely the mayor, the availability of incentives to discuss with the president of ACME Widget Co. None of this is done via email or public meeting, because the Greater OKC Chamber doesn't want reporters like Leve Stackmeyer to find out and break the story (they still believe a "scoop" by another reporter some 30 years ago cost them a relocation of the Harley Davidson Motorcycle plant). So all this goes on behind the scenes.
Discussions continue, and an announcement is made: ACME Widget Co. is coming to OKC! Everyone is excited. The president of ACME talks about how great OKC is as a new home, and wants investors and customers to know this is the best move for the company. Then, a few months later, the incentives "application" is made. Some are taken aback by this news. Wasn't this company coming anyway? Why is the incentive needed?

Steve, the behind-the-scenes deals are likely to increase now that we have consolidated power with the Economic Development Trust.

I don't think many people will argue over incentives of this size but this is taxpayer money and the people controlling it do have a responsibility to the public.

This whole "we know what's best and by being transparent it will queer the deal" attitude is dangerous.

Pete, anyone who knows me hopefully knows I'm someone who favors transparency and wants the public to know as much as possible early on. And sometimes the folks at the chamber and City Hall don't know what's best.
I submit the following:
- $2 million in federal Community Development Block Grant funds was provided to Tower Tech in 1999 to cover financial losses following the company's relocation from Chickasha to Oklahoma City. Then-Mayor Kirk Humphreys argued against the grant citing the company's woes and warned the grant money could be lost. The city council, with Ward 1 Councilman Frosty Peak leading the charge, voted for the grant anyway. The company later filed for bankruptcy and the city lost the federal funds.
- The city in 2000 agreed to five years of ad valorem tax rebates for construction of a Corning fiber optics plant. The company planned to employ up to 1,000 people. The company scrapped the project after constructing a steel superstructure, and the property remained unfinished for years.
- In 2008 The chamber brought an application for $3 million from the GOLT program for a medical transcription company. I did some digging on this company via Nexis and Google and found plenty of evidence the company, Spheris, was in bad shape. The proposal called for the city to provide $1 million up front for setting up operations in Oklahoma City, with the majority of the 1,000-employee operation consisting of work-at-home jobs with an average salary of $36,000.
When it came up for a vote, Trustee and Ward 1 Councilman Pat Ryan questioned the company's financial viability, noting he was able to find reports of losses totaling $2.8 million in 2006 during a search on Google.
A report on the proposed incentives deal submitted by Robin Roberts Krieger, executive vice president of economic development with the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, indicated Oklahoma City was one of two finalists for the Spheris expansion when the company initially chose New Mexico. The company chose New Mexico, but then "reopened" site selection when "issues emerged" with that state's incentives package. Spheris filed for bankruptcy in 2010.

These are deals I reported on extensively and where I sought to inform readers about potential problems prior to them being approved. I also DO NOT buy into the story that transparency and accountability can destroy a good, valid economic development prospect and the Harley Davidson story is awfully old and also more urban myth legend than fact from everything I've seen and heard.

Steve, my comments weren't aimed at you but at the people who try to keep these things secret in the guise of the public interest.


In the case of Continental, I could see why any preliminary discussions needed to be somewhat confidential, as they were going to great lengths not to let the cat out of the bag before they were ready to break the news to their employees. But even in that case, you can have letters of intent that don't need to be made public until it's time to put these things to a vote of the appropriate committee(s).

Also, why couldn't this process have coincided with them making their move public? If there was a handshake agreement and they didn't want to commit until the funds were official, why not simply make their move contingent on the funds and ask for the necessary votes?

Why is this incentive being asked for and given a year after they've already bought a building and made their decision?

As this happened, the whole incentive could have been denied by a vote of the City Council and of course, Continental knew this. The money couldn't have been guaranteed to them because only the council has that authority.

Steve, my comments weren't aimed at you but at the people who try to keep these things secret in the guise of the public interest.



I know, and I hope my response didn't come off as defensive - that's not how it was intended. It was really a huge "AMEN" to the need for transparency.

Just wanted to chime in here, Pete. I was asking these exact same questions a while back and getting slammed for being "anti-growth." I was proud of Shadid for daring to ask the obvious questions. And if anyone here really thinks Denver and Houston were real possibilities, I have several bridges in Brooklyn to sell you. This was simply corporate welfare. Continental is not hurting for money and private business should not feed at the public trough when it's not necessary for everybody all the way around. So many precedents have been set now, that my concern is that it is something that is now just expected. In other words, corporate entitlement. I applaud Dr. Shadid for his research (he knows what he's talking about) and for not accepting the "pat" answers that we're all supposed to just accept without skipping a beat. With Shadid, that's not going to happen. And as for the money not being that much, ask the parks department (just as an example) what they could do with that money.

One other thing, why is it an "entitlement giveaway" when given to citizens for whatever reason, but a "grant" when given to big business? Just a thought.

And Steve, we all know you are doing your best - you do an excellent job. I think it's clear Pete meant "behind-the-scenes" as in even from you - as good as you are.

Fresh air or a hinderance? It's both: Fresh Air to the average citizen and a Hindrance to the powers-that-be.

The biggest proof that Continental's move to OKC was not contingent on this $7.2 million incentive is the fact they bought a building, set up an office in town and announced to the world they were moving a full year before these funds were actually approved.

And I don't buy the idea a secret deal was cut because even if it was, Hamm knew is was nonbinding which is why it had to go before multiple committees for approval, which just happened this month.

I guess what I was trying to say is good or bad, these deals are approved "officially" in public, but in reality, are agreed to long before they become public. Who is to say a deal wasn't struck behind the scenes with Hamm before he bought the building? The problem with all this, of course, is when those "behind the scenes agreements" don't quite work out as expected when they come to a public vote, ala the grand prix last year. I've heard from numerous parties that both Jim Couch and Mick Cornett both assured Trent Ward the deal would be approved, that there would be no problems getting the $7 million approved. But the council, faced with one failure after another on these races, didn't go with that assurance even though in private they might have given Cornett another impression.
What you're seeing is what I get frustrated with all the time - the apparent circumvention of open records/open meetings laws. And yet when legislators and judges seek to weaken the openness laws and we journalists raise a fuss about it, it feels like we get no sympathy from the public....
Remember, I WAS THE ONE asking about accountability, open records, etc. with the Alliance for the Economic Development of Oklahoma City. Now I'm not asking for people to say "oh Steve, you're so great" - I'm not. There are weaknesses all through the system, including with the paper and other news organizations. But what I am saying is realize that if you feel there is not enough transparency with all this, then remember that when lawmakers like Randy Terrill are trying to destroy the open records act.

Just to confirm Steve's views on this: More than 50 years ago, when I was the CofC beat reporter down in Ardmore, I personally attended a "private" dinner at the home of one Waco Turner (mostly forgotten now, but the discoverer of the East Texas oil field and a leading member of the notorious "700 millionaires" of OU history fame), at which the present routing of I35 through Garvin, Carter, and Love counties was established. Others present were Raymond Gary, Carl Albert, and John Easley (owner of the Ardmoreite; I was present as his chauffeur, not as a reporter since the whole thing was off the record). Such informal behind-the-scenes maneuvering is as old as humanity itself. If anything, our present situation in OKC seems to be somewhat better than the 100-year average!

I guess what I was trying to say is good or bad, these deals are approved "officially" in public, but in reality, are agreed to long before they become public. Who is to say a deal wasn't struck behind the scenes with Hamm before he bought the building?

I understand this completely and am sure this happens all the time.

At the same time, businessmen like Hamm are smart enough to know that whatever assurances, nothing is guaranteed until the funds are actually approved.

If you were Harold Hamm and the mayor and chamber president (or other city notables) came to you and said, "Hey, I think we can get you about $7 million or so in incentives if you move downtown" and in fact this was the difference in you moving there or not, don't you think you'd want to get that squared away before you bought an expensive building and issued a press release?


There can be no disputing that Hamm is a shrewd businessman but we are to believe that he wouldn't have made the move without this money yet he moved forward and spent millions long before it was approved??

It's obvious that some incentive money was probably informally promised but it's also obvious that was not the deciding factor in the move, otherwise he would have waited for that first.

It's also obvious that whoever made those promises were being less than honest by not saying so when this came up for a council vote.

That he takes the $7,000,000.00 at all bothers me. But that he takes 7 million in a government giveaway while supporting " smaller government," is hypocritical and really galling.

Take a look at this and pay attention to just 2011 (heck, just look at Q3 of 2011)....He even gets his wife in for an extra $30,000 to the Republican National Committee. The original McCain-Feingold bill proposed per couple if married. That was pulled out in committee.
http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=name&lname=Hamm

The above contributions are all to politicians who believe government should be smaller and spend less - except of course - when it's the Harold Hamm's who take the money from government. OKC handing over Hamm & CR $7 million dollars SHOULD be scandalous. I love these Oklahoma "conservatives."

the activity is not something odd by Oklahoma conservatives. It's as common place as it can be here, and across the country, irrespective of political affiliation. Most in favor of 'smaller' govt. are in favor of the smaller being areas they receive no benefit from as that permits the other areas to permit larger benefits. Neither party has a monopoly on it.

And, other than the absence of transparency, the real question then becomes, is OKC better off having spent the money than they would be if it were not spent? As many things are (practically speaking) decided quietly and well before the matter is public, it is a fair question to ask on whether CR would be here now w/o the prior quiet commitments.

I am not defending the practice, merely recognizing it is nothing new.

I understand this completely and am sure this happens all the time.

At the same time, businessmen like Hamm are smart enough to know that whatever assurances, nothing is guaranteed until the funds are actually approved.

If you were Harold Hamm and the mayor and chamber president (or other city notables) came to you and said, "Hey, I think we can get you about $7 million or so in incentives if you move downtown" and in fact this was the difference in you moving there or not, don't you think you'd want to get that squared away before you bought an expensive building and issued a press release?


There can be no disputing that Hamm is a shrewd businessman but we are to believe that he wouldn't have made the move without this money yet he moved forward and spent millions long before it was approved??

It's obvious that some incentive money was probably informally promised but it's also obvious that was not the deciding factor in the move, otherwise he would have waited for that first.

It's also obvious that whoever made those promises were being less than honest by not saying so when this came up for a council vote.

Amen. The parallels with other relatively recent endeavors are astounding...but I won't side track the discussion here...keep going Pete!

With all respect, comparing this deal to the Grand Prix letter of intent is a stretch. Both appear to have been vetted and one failed for lack of fiscal integrity, the other is established to be paid out as a measure of performance as approved by City voters.

So . . .
Is even the appearance of a conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor a felony?
Or is it vice-versa?

I forget . . .
except for the nasty, nagging, echos of that old-time, good-ol'-boy County Commisioner deal
a while back . . .

With all respect, comparing this deal to the Grand Prix letter of intent is a stretch. Both appear to have been vetted and one failed for lack of fiscal integrity, the other is established to be paid out as a measure of performance as approved by City voters.

I'm not comparing them in terms of viability, worthiness. Only when it comes to process.

If there is another CR out there somewhere, and they would relocate 255 jobs, plus hire another 450 or so at an average salary of $165,000.00, agree to purchase a major downtown office and have a responsible corporate influence as Devon or Chesapeake......

Then I'd say find another 7 m and bring them in.....and for the next 20 years you'd be glad you did.......or you could be Grapevine Texas, fork over 9 million to a floundering Fleming, and then watch them dissolve within two years of relocation.

What would your choice be ?

Or you can sit around on your front porch, be a nobody and do nothing, and then piss and moan as you watch the world go by.....

No one will do anything for you, you must do things for yourself....the MAPS projects are a fine example of this.

If there is another CR out there somewhere, and they would relocate 255 jobs, plus hire another 450 or so at an average salary of $165,000.00, agree to purchase a major downtown office and have a responsible corporate influence as Devon or Chesapeake......

Then I'd say find another 7 m and bring them in.....and for the next 20 years you'd be glad you did.......or you could be Grapevine Texas, fork over 9 million to a floundering Fleming, and then watch them dissolve within two years of relocation.

What would your choice be ?

Or you can sit around on your front porch, be a nobody and do nothing, and then piss and moan as you watch the world go by.....

No one will do anything for you, you must do things for yourself....the MAPS projects are a fine example of this.

Then just admit you support corporate-government partnerships that in Europe they call, "Market Socialism." Which is fine. Just admit what it is.

I'm not familiar with the term "market socialism," Mike, but it doesn't sound at all unlike what our city (and numerous others) and states have done to provide economic incentives of various types for quite a long time now. And I'm good with that type of approach, generally. Without that premise/underpinning, we'd almost certainly not have a Skirvin Hilton downtown today.

More particularly as to Shadid, my sense is two-fold about his underpinnings: (1) first and foremost, city government is best when it is transparent, involves the public, and is openly deliberative; (2) even given that, and with such deliberation, reasonable minds may well differ, and decisions are best made with such open deliberation, and regardless of the outcome.

Bellaboo, all that said, no requirement exists that citizens, or council members, simply be mindless rubber-stamps, does it, as to whatever corporate opportunities present themselves to the city. That's not a question, it's a statement.

Bellaboo, all that said, no requirement exists that citizens, or council members, simply be mindless rubber-stamps, does it, as to whatever corporate opportunities present themselves to the city. That's not a question, it's a statement.

Doug, I completely agree, but in the case with CR, I think it was well determined before Shadid came on the scene. Maybe he should have been more informed or it should have been more transparent, but I think most relocations are kept tight lipped while the deal is locked up behind the scenes before any publicity on the event is confirmed. Don't want to take a chance on causing something to fall through.

Doug, I agree, in the case of a Skirvin, I don't think there is any doubt if the City hadn't stepped in, it would have been destined to become a surface parking lot. In the case of CR (and others) they were coming anyway and there wasn't any need to lure them or negotiate deals after the fact.

The problem I see with Bellaboo's idea is the pile of money is finite, if you waste it on a company that is already coming, you won't have it to actually lure someone that is just thinking about coming here (turn you into a finalist/winner instead of a semi-finalist). That and do it responsibly, if the company doesn't produce the jobs they say at the salary they promised, they don't get the money. In essence, make it a rebate instead of upfront (like has been done in the past, esp on the state level).

Larry and Bellaboo, does that mean that all 3 of us are in favor of what Mike called, "market socialism?" I still don't know what that phrase exactly means, but if it is analogous to what the city did vis a vis the Skirvin, I'm all for it.

Seems to me that the citizens voted to have a 75 million dolllar fund in place to encourage high paying jobs being created in OKC. Seems to me that moving a company to OKC had nothing to do with this fund. Seems to me if a company can create and expect to create a specified number of high paying jobs in OKC they are eligible to draw from the fund as they create those jobs. Seems to me the city council has agreed to fund up to 7 plus million dollars to be paid out to Continental if they meet their stated objectives. Seems to me that Chesapeake tapped this fund to the tune of three million dollars plus at a point in the past. What was the problem with this transaction or what am I missing? If what I stated is true, then there is no problem and Shadid is nothing more than a politico wanna be, trying to build a reputation as a defender for the little folks.

Seems to me that the citizens voted to have a 75 million dolllar fund in place to encourage high paying jobs being created in OKC. Seems to me that moving a company to OKC had nothing to do with this fund. Seems to me if a company can create and expect to create a specified number of high paying jobs in OKC they are eligible to draw from the fund as they create those jobs. Seems to me the city council has agreed to fund up to 7 plus million dollars to be paid out to Continental if they meet their stated objectives. Seems to me that Chesapeake tapped this fund to the tune of three million dollars plus at a point in the past. What was the problem with this transaction or what am I missing? If what I stated is true, then there is no problem and Shadid is nothing more than a politico wanna be, trying to build a reputation as a defender for the little folks.

Popsy,
You are pretty well spot on. Not so sure about Shadid's motives, but MikeOkc needs to realize that without a viable business climate, none of us would be here.

Now lets hope we can find another 5 or 6 more good companies to relocate to OKC. (and use the fund that was setup to help bring them here)

Although I didn't vote for him, I think Shadid has done a pretty good job. But his attitude of "something is always wrong or corrupt and I must question everything" can get tiring

his attitude of "something is always wrong or corrupt and I must question everything" can get tiring

I completely agree. I understand transparency, but when you have that attitude, you will always fire people up for no reason. Shadid to me acts like every single city decision has shady undertones, and that’s just not true.

Basic psychology. If you don’t trust someone then you question EVERYthing.. It’s obvious that Shadid does not trust his fellow councilmen and women.

I recommend the book “5 Dysfunctions of a Team” by Partick Lencioni

He's not questioning everything. Looking out for the "little folk?" Well, at least somebody there is. It seems the purpose of the Council is to look out for the interest of the corporate elite in our city. It's all mixed up and turned upside-down. The city just isn't used to having a Shadid to question anything. And, I'm all for a viable business climate by letting business worry about business and the city council worry about civic affairs - which is a lot more than serving as a bank for corporations who don't need and shouldn't get taxpayer dollars. It's out of control. The idea of billionaire CEOs taking a DIME of taxpayer money for their companies from our fair city is simply disgusting.

Well mike, looking out for the little folk might be fine and dandy, but is he really doing that or serving his own agenda? I can't see that he has accomplished one thing since he was elected. I also think he reads this forum to get his talking points due to the vocal group that is constantly complaining about how the city is run. I ran an Independent practice association for over 400 physicians in California in the first half of the nineties and never ran across one of them that cared about the little person. They were totally out for themselves. Could Shadid be different than they were? Certainly, but since I became of a voting age I have been watching politicians come on the scene and use similar tactics to what Shadid is using now and that is 45 years of watching. Until I see different tactics, plus him actually accomplishing something I will view his actions as trying to create a name for himself that would allow him to win a governorship, senate seat or congressman. My guiding principal is if he acts like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, he very well is probably a duck. Also if anyone thinks OKC will be ran much differently and you can't put up with it any longer, then move on or hold your breath until it changes. OKC government is better than most and worse than some. If you don't like what I said here, ignore me.

Well mike, looking out for the little folk might be fine and dandy...(clip)... If you don't like what I said here, ignore me.

Well, I'm not going to do that. I respect your opinion. The one thing to remember about Shadid was he was involved for years in many grassroots organizations before he even considered running for office. From what I hear he is excellent on constituency assistance. He'll go the extra mile for people having trouble or needing this or that. He's genuine to me. But, time will tell.

Mike, if Shadid is like you say he is, we will certainly know for sure at some point in time. I am sure that other council members share the same traits that you believe Shadid has and wanting more than anything to move the city forward. There is not one of them that I can tell is corrupt. Do all of them make perfect decisions? Hardly, but I believe they see themselves as doing the best that they can. Fortunately none of them are trying to discredit the others as Shadid seems to be trying to do. Remember the Duck.

If Shadid is a "politico wanna be" he has weird way of showing it. He calls out the largest and most powerful players in the city and state, then he probably upsets the far Christian right by standing up for employee rights. He has a successful medical practice - his views wont play in state/national capitol, but his focus on good government sure works for people I talk to. From everything I see he cares about making sure that there is a voice for all people who do not feel represented. He is serving the public and it includes "the little folks" and everyone else. Maybe forever and especially it seems in this city, the OGE, Devon's, Chesap.'s The Oklahoman, etc. has not had a problem with representation. I think he is doing what is best for the overall citizenship and economy of OKC. We need more like him. Smart, with a spine, and no conflict of interest. If higher office is Shadid's strategy name one other politician who has obtained those posts by questioning tax subsides and the influence of oil and gas corporations in Oklahoma? Name one who has refused all PAC money and corporate donations. He is a different kind of person - I don't think we have seen one like him and that is why people are responding to him.

Breath of fresh air. For a while I was concerned he wasn't always "picking his battles" wisely, but now I've learned to relax and just let Ed be Ed. Conservatives and liberals love him for different reasons. He actually has won over a ton of fiscal conservatives for being vigilant about how their money is spent by city hall. Liberals love him because he's not the typical Oklahoma Democrat who pretends to be a Republican. He's an unabashed supporter of urban issues, gay rights, personal freedom, anti-sprawl, etc. He will be unbeatable in Ward 2 in future elections and will be on the horseshoe as long as he wants. I hope he stays a few terms before pursuing higher office, because this city needs him on the council.

Popsy,
You are pretty well spot on. Not so sure about Shadid's motives, but MikeOkc needs to realize that without a viable business climate, none of us would be here.

Now lets hope we can find another 5 or 6 more good companies to relocate to OKC. (and use the fund that was setup to help bring them here)

That is precisely the point I think Shadid was trying to make...the intent and purpose of that fund was to use as an incentive to get those that might not see OKC as a viable place to relocate...not to be used by those that were coming anyway. the legal way of offering a bribe rather than a kickback

I love how he rattles the status quo! He seems to be a person that will not be intimidated by those so called "OKC" decision makers. He is very forward thinking and progressive in his beliefs and is not afraid to voice them and challenge those that are rather provincial in their thinking. He is a definite positive force that is needed to ruffle some feathers.

Larry and Bellaboo, does that mean that all 3 of us are in favor of what Mike called, "market socialism?" I still don't know what that phrase exactly means, but if it is analogous to what the city did vis a vis the Skirvin, I'm all for it.

Not sure what that term means either. But to clarify
Skirvin = Good (if the City hadnt stepped in it would have been a parking lot)
Cont. Res = Bad (they were coming anyway so it is a waste of taxpayer funds, use it to get the businesses that are on the fence).

There are obviously a wide range of opinions just based off of this thread and many others. How you view Mr. Shadid will largely depend on if your a detail person (the process must work fairly and ethically) or a results person. If you are a details person you are probably very interested in transparency. He will appeal to those types. A results person will find his schtick old.

My fear is that Mr. Shadid is becoming a liberal version of Brian Walters. He is a councilman who offers a lot of promise; He has some great progressive ideas about sustainability that are badly needed in OKC. However, he does not understand the concept of "choosing your battles wisely". He is not building coalitions at all. Over time the council will write him off as "that loon that will always vote against us" much like Mr. Walters. He, like a lot of people on this board, are convinced this city is some Russian-style kleptocracy. And it would be most tragic if he spends his times fighting something that doesn't exist.

That is precisely the point I think Shadid was trying to make...the intent and purpose of that fund was to use as an incentive to get those that might not see OKC as a viable place to relocate...not to be used by those that were coming anyway. the legal way of offering a bribe rather than a kickback

Not to argue too much, but the issue spoke here is - was the incentive used to lure ? Just because they made the pre announcement about relocating before the incentive was approved does not mean it wasn't used to lure them here. Look at the Jim Kyle post from his experience 50 years ago....that's how things got/get done.

That is precisely the point I think Shadid was trying to make...the intent and purpose of that fund was to use as an incentive to get those that might not see OKC as a viable place to relocate...not to be used by those that were coming anyway. the legal way of offering a bribe rather than a kickback

I would be very interested in knowing where you came up with what the "intent and purpose of that fund" actually might mean. For some reason I feel you might of made that up, but maybe not, so could you document what was said on the ballot as to what was the reason for creating the fund?