Seems the Southern Plains Beer Fest was held in Moore over the weekend. Its an opportunity for people to showcase their home brews. But, law requires they have an ATF license to sell beer. Since they sold tickets to the beer tasting (all proceeds donated to charity), ABLE officers showed up just as the event was starting and down the tasting part of the event (which would seem to be like shutting down the nudie part of a strip club). Organizers said they were not aware that providing tiny sample cups and taking donations was a violation.

One phone call by the organizers would have been kinda smart

They had to, if only to avoid life imitating art:

Richie: All we had was some beer.. in teeny, tiny glasses
Mr. C: How many teeny, tiny glasses did you have?
Richie: 72

They had to, if only to avoid life imitating art:

Richie: All we had was some beer.. in teeny, tiny glasses
Mr. C: How many teeny, tiny glasses did you have?
Richie: 72

Exactly....Should always check before doing ANYTHING alcohol related in Okieville

Being a Southeast Spartan during the late 70's, I just can't resist. "Moore Morons" :dizzy:

a bunch of off-topic posts were deleted. let's stick to topic. -M

Here’s the real story. BTW, the media didn’t portray the exact message of what went down (which isn’t surprising, is it?) nor was this a homebrew only event.

This event has been planned for months now and like with previous/past events ABLE has been in the know since the beginning of planning of it. For those that have been to BeerFest (at Remington) or ZooBrew you know that essentially all these types of events are charity fund raisers where tickets are sold and beer is served via local distributors, liquor stores and breweries, all of which is donated. For several years now homebrewers have been invited and allowed to pour their beers at these events as well, there’s never been an issue until now.

From what I'm told, the ABLE rep involved initially isn’t the same one that showed up the day before the event (not the day of) ~lunch time and said that no homebrew could be served. Their argument is that although all of the beer is donated, since people had to pay for tickets then the homebrew could be considered ‘sold’, money for the exchange of beer. Yes this is all up to interpretation and if the attendance was free there wouldn’t have been an issue, however again this was agreed upon originally by ABLE for this event as well as multiple past events. Why a lone ABLE rep would decide to show up the day before the event and retract a previous agreement is beyond us. Currently our club president (and who knows how many other homebrewers and random public) are trying to contact and speak with ABLE to find out what we have to do so that this doesn’t happen again.

Couldn't they apply that same logic to the State Fair. I saw them giving out samples of wine and I had to buy a ticket to get into the event? Am I missing something (which has been known to happen)?

If you're tired of ABLE strong-handed tactics, find your local legislatures here (http://www.okhouse.gov/FindMyLegislature.aspx), and email them to let them know. They attempted to shutdown the Oklahoma Craft Beer Festival held in Bricktown during the summer, H&8th, and now the Southern Plains Beer Festival. Each time at the last minute and each time with some vague interpretation of the rules. If this state every wants to grow to the point of being able (heh, pun not intended) of selling high-point cold beer in groceries than the ABLE Commission needs to be reigned in.

And, BBatesokc...I've sent an email directly to the folks at ABLE asking them that same question. I'll post if I get any response.

Wow. It's amazing this would happen with the amount of scrutiny they've received recently.

Was there by chance a change at the top over at ABLE, either in operational staff or on the governance board, after the last statewide election?

Was there by chance a change at the top over at ABLE, either in operational staff or on the governance board, after the last statewide election?

Each governor gets to appoint their own ABLE leadership. Maybe readers should contact the governors office.

http://www.ok.gov/able/Commissioners/

Wow. It's amazing this would happen with the amount of scrutiny they've received recently.

true, how dare they do the job they were hired to do, shame shame shame.

After this quick strike (wonder if they game plan like SWAT does before a raid) they can now get onto their priority one task at hand...Cracking down on the wine served at Lifechurches in the metro

Each governor gets to appoint their own ABLE leadership. Maybe readers should contact the governors office.

http://www.ok.gov/able/Commissioners/

True, but if they serve staggered terms, like on most exec. branch boards, many of the members may still be hold overs from when Henry was in office. Additionally, as the notes on the linked page show, no more than four can be from the same political party. I only recognize one of the names, Sides, who is from se ok. Don't know whether Henry or Fallin appointed him, but fairly sure he is (R) side of the fence. In short, I don't know the makeup, or whether there was any significant shift of late in the membership. I was hopeful someone else knew more.

true, how dare they do the job they were hired to do, shame shame shame.

Then this must be one of those rare instances when a conservative like you actually thinks the government knows best.

true, how dare they do the job they were hired to do, shame shame shame.

They were not hired to harass. Something is happening within their group and it must be stopped.

If they were out to do the right thing than I wouldn't have a problem with their decisions, however when they say one thing and retract it later, either they are up to something OR perhaps everybody dealing with these types of scenarios previously are incompetent, not a subject matter expert, lazy or all of the those. Unfortunately I don’t know where to start with this situation really. Past experience with ABLE over submitting for my homebrew license was met with less than enthusiastic responses.

BTW, here's the link to the newstory. It does a little better job explaining what happened versus some of the shorter clips they were showing over the weekend.

http://www.kfor.com/videobeta/4fb0d5ba-84a6-4976-aa7d-3f15f90d02a4/News/Bricktown-Brew-Ha-Ha

They were not hired to harass. Something is happening within their group and it must be stopped.

So you equate enforcing laws with harrassment.

So you equate enforcing laws with harrassment.

What frickin' laws are they enforcing? NONE!

Now, tell us which family relative of yours is one of the armed agents?

You're so awfully protective of them.

Probably would have been fine if they had done it on suggested donation rather than an actual entry ticket. It does indeed suck if they did submit their plans for the event months in advance, got approval and then ABLE decided to change their mind the day before the event. I doubt there was any way at that point they could have changed to make it something workable.

Probably would have been fine if they had done it on suggested donation rather than an actual entry ticket. It does indeed suck if they did submit their plans for the event months in advance, got approval and then ABLE decided to change their mind the day before the event. I doubt there was any way at that point they could have changed to make it something workable.

From what I read, it was a lone armed agent whom felt the need to satisfy his fetish urges. I don't understand why the people at the event caved in to demands from that lone armed agent. They should have laughed, ignored him, and kicked him out. Either way, the lone armed agent knows he is in big trouble. I'm just waiting to see how long it will take for him to lose the job. Watch, he will file for unemployment benefits and most likely come on here to complain about losing his job.

Why is not Steve Lackmeyer reporting on any of this? I don't understand how H&8 received huge attention while this event did not.

What frickin' laws are they enforcing? NONE!

These:

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/T37.pdf

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Prevention%20of%20Youth%20Access%20to%20Tobacco.pd f

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Prevention%20of%20Youth%20Access%20to%20Alcoholic% 20Beverages%20and%20Low-point%20Beer.doc

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Charity%20Games%20Law.doc

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Alcoholic%20Beverage%20Administrative%20Code%20Inc ludes%20Charity%20Games.pdf

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/NOHguideline.pdf

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Index.asp?ftdb=STOKST37&level=1

http://www.oar.state.ok.us/oar/codedoc02.nsf/frmMain?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Main&Src=_75tnm2shfcdnm8pb4dthj0chedppmcbq8dtmmak31ctij ujrgcln50ob7ckj42tbkdt374obdcli00_

And more specifically, Chapter 4 of this:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Index.asp?ftdb=STOKST3A&level=1

I will review those and see what I can find against the lone armed agent.

These:

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/T37.pdf

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Prevention%20of%20Youth%20Access%20to%20Tobacco.pd f

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Prevention%20of%20Youth%20Access%20to%20Alcoholic% 20Beverages%20and%20Low-point%20Beer.doc

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Charity%20Games%20Law.doc

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/Alcoholic%20Beverage%20Administrative%20Code%20Inc ludes%20Charity%20Games.pdf

http://www.ok.gov/able/documents/NOHguideline.pdf

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Index.asp?ftdb=STOKST37&level=1

http://www.oar.state.ok.us/oar/codedoc02.nsf/frmMain?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Main&Src=_75tnm2shfcdnm8pb4dthj0chedppmcbq8dtmmak31ctij ujrgcln50ob7ckj42tbkdt374obdcli00_

And more specifically, Chapter 4 of this:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Index.asp?ftdb=STOKST3A&level=1

Ok. I looked through Chapter 4. It appears to me that Chapter is dealing with charitable organizations, gambling games, and the prohibition of alcohol sales during BINGO and U-Pick-Em games. Am I missing something??

I said a bunch of stuff here, please disregard.

I'm assuming that your organization had already been granted an organization license to conduct charity games? The procedure to do so is in the statutes, at http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=73273.

Now, ABLE is the licensing entity, but it would seem that if you were clear in your application process exactly what would be happening and they granted you a license, then ABLE would actually have to go through a process, or at least make a finding that you have violated the statute, i.e., the stuff found here: http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=73272 .

Hopefully, y'all have members who are lawyers or married to lawyers who can make this problem go away for you. It doesn't look like rocket science as I review the relevant statutes.

Why is the craft beer/homebrewing event being classified as a charity game?

I could be wrong but I don't think it even has to be that complicated if you are not playing an actual game.

Either you are giving it away or you are selling it. If the "donation" is suggested and not mandatory or there is no money changing hands at all, you are giving it away. I have served beer and wine at art openings for "suggested donations of $3.00 for wine and $2.00 for beer". Some of the same orgs do, on occasion, get a limited license to run a cash bar at larger events but I don't think they are required to get any licensing to give beer and wine away, and certainly not a charity game license.

Why is the craft beer/homebrewing event being classified as a charity game?

I may have misinterpreted what was going on at this function.

Or actually, I definitely did. Disregard my post. So if you're just selling alcohol, ABLE would still be in charge of that, but if you have a license to sell it and you were very clear in the application as to what exactly you'd be selling, I would think (and this is me speculating, not advising) that there would have to be some sort of procedure/notice requirement before an agent can show up and summarily suspend your operation.

I agree Mid. I understand ABLE's interpretation of the law, but what gets me is apparently someone in ABLE interpreted it to be ok at one point in the licensing process but later changed their mind...and by later, I mean 1 day before the event. This is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. The only way this is possible is there is not a head to direct the two. The laws are so convoluted and open to interpretation that the ABLE director can not give clear direction to their agents and to their licensing department as to how to operate. Like Brian said, how are wineries allowed to serve their product at the state fair (which people have to purchase tickets to enter the fair), but homebrewers are not allowed to serve theirs are a beer festival (which you have to purchase a ticket to enter). I'm trying to stay rational about this and give ABLE a fair chance but this reeks of local distributors using their clout to shut out possible competition (I don't mean that to sound as tinfoil-hatish as it sounds).

I haven't read the statutes, but I recall some recent controversy over homebrewing. Did they ever get a statute passed to legalize it? I know that wineries and actual larger scale breweries have their own license requirements, and the wineries you're talking about have probably had to comply with something unless you're suggesting that the wine being served at the beer comes from home wine makers, which I don't think is what you're suggesting at all.

Alcohol laws are just weird. I'd be in favor of just deep sixing ABLE altogether. I don't think they protect the public from any sort of danger whatsoever and as you say, these rules and regulations hamper commerce and serve no rational purpose.

My understanding is that they have fixed the statute to allow home brewing along the lines of allowing home wine making. I wish they would clear out some of the oddball liquor statutes and streamline them. There are plenty of states that have liquor laws that allow more freedom to buy and sell and, regardless, they don't seem to have significantly different alcohol related behaviors than we have.

I'm trying to stay rational about this and give ABLE a fair chance but this reeks of local distributors using their clout to shut out possible competition (I don't mean that to sound as tinfoil-hatish as it sounds).It remains to be seen if ABLE is in cahoots with the local distributors, but it is well documented that the local distributors don't want any competition to hurt their cash cow.

Mid, as Penny said they did pass a law that legalized homebrewing that Gov Henry signed back in summer of 2010 I believe. The law requires homebrewers to obtain a license from ABLE and prohibits the brewing of more than 2000 gallons of beer in a calender year. How ABLE is suppose to enforce that with the limited resources they have is beyond me. I know the organizers (and the homebrewing clubs around the state) require that their members or participants have their homebrewing license.

Frisky, that what I have heard as well, which is comical at best. Homebrewers enjoy not only making their own beer, but are probably more willing to buy craft beer from stores that those distributors supply than the regular joe is. For me personally, I love to make a trip to my favorite liquor store to grab a new craft beer and talk to the owner about said beer. It allows me to then go back home and try to determine the flavors and characteristics that I like from the beer, then try to replicate that in my brewing. The distributors have little to fear from homebrewers.

It remains to be seen if ABLE is in cahoots with the local distributors, but it is well documented that the local distributors don't want any competition to hurt their cash cow.
FRISKY!

I can't personally speak one way or another, however I was told by a very reputable source that despite the arguments for/against any types of liquor laws what it really boils down to is money and specifically, who stands to gain it and who is going to be losing it. This same thing is heavily tied in with the recent push to have high point beer and wine in grocery stores (which is a completely different topic I'm more than willing to discuss until I'm blue in the face. I argue both sides of this one..) That being said, I can't see how ABLE isn't in cahoots on some level..

Mid, as Penny said they did pass a law that legalized homebrewing that Gov Henry signed back in summer of 2010 I believe. The law requires homebrewers to obtain a license from ABLE and prohibits the brewing of more than 2000 gallons of beer in a calender year. How ABLE is suppose to enforce that with the limited resources they have is beyond me. I know the organizers (and the homebrewing clubs around the state) require that their members or participants have their homebrewing license.

Frisky, that what I have heard as well, which is comical at best. Homebrewers enjoy not only making their own beer, but are probably more willing to buy craft beer from stores that those distributors supply than the regular joe is. For me personally, I love to make a trip to my favorite liquor store to grab a new craft beer and talk to the owner about said beer. It allows me to then go back home and try to determine the flavors and characteristics that I like from the beer, then try to replicate that in my brewing. The distributors have little to fear from homebrewers.

-homebrewing was signed in last year, July or August iirc
-it's 200 gallons (not 2000)
-there's no way they can police that, nor do they care to. If there's a gross violation happening they have a law in place to prosecute provided it is brought to their attention.
-our club (and I'm pretty sure all the clubs do this) requires anybody serving homebrew at one of these events has an up to date license, regardless if they brewed the particular batch being served or not (now you would REALLY be digging in the weeds, I can't imagine the mess of interpretation on that)

Agreed, distributors SHOULD want support of homebrewers, we are typically the ones searching for the limited release and obscure beers that may or may not be available to OK and are often the first ones in line to buy any of those types of beer as soon as they step foot into the state. I wish I knew more distributors willing to share some of the 'secrets' involved in their side of the process. I'd love to be able (pun not intended) to assist them any way I can. For the love of great beer it's going to take all beer nerds coming together to fight. The macrobreweries would surely prefer we just give up the and go by a Bud/Miller/Coors.

bille - you are correct and that gallon limit was a typo on my part. I agree with 100% of what you typed. It will take a concerted and unified effort by individual homebrewers, homebrewing clubs, homebrew suppliers, craft beer enthusiasts, and any other groups out there that would like to see the alcohol laws in this state updated before anything can happen.

Are you a member of the Yeastie Boys? I thought I recognized the shirts you guys have on in your avatar.

Indeed it will take a concerted effort and I think changing the laws, or more importantly, changing the minds <and teaching> those uneducated on the subject will be a difficult task.

I am in the Yeastie Boys, good eye! Have you been to any of our meetings or are you associated with a homebrew club?