View Full Version : OH MY OH MY -- Council refuses deferals based on the request of 3 members failed!



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Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 10:25 AM
I've been watching the city council meeting, still in process. Do you remember a few weeks ago that council members Marrs, Salyer & Ryan said that deferrals were almost automatic when a council member requested one? Marrs said the he had not ever heard of one not being granted, and Salyer said, "see, we already have a procedure" (or something like that) which gives more time, based on the courtesy reciprocally extended amongst council members.

Well, guess what? The MAPS 3 timeline was on today's agenda. Council member Shadid communicated with council member White, explaining that he would not be able to be present because of an international flight getting delayed and White passed along his request and moved to continue the matter. Meg Salyer wasn't present but passed along her own request that the matter not be deferred. Skip Kelly seconded the deferral motion. The deferral motion failed (and that's why I'm saying "3" -- 2 present and 1 absent).

So all of that lovey-dovey talk about a continuance request being a slam-dunk just went down the toilet and Marrs, Salyer and Ryan come out wearing their hypocrite clothes ... such as the old fairy tale about the emperor's new clothes.

Talk about a council divided ... it this vote doesn't shatter the semblance of mutual respect, I don't know what would.

On edit: To a mod ... please add a space in the title of this thread so that it reads, "OH MY OH MY -- Council refuses <sp> deferals based on the request of 3 members failed!

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 10:32 AM
Now, they are discussing the timing of the convention center moving forward ... fascinating stuff to watch. Ugly, but fascinating.

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 10:54 AM
Option 1 as presented by the Citizen's Committee (moving the convention center the further-est forward) just selected compared to option 2 by a vote of 4-3. The Committee for Oklahoma City Momentum is alive and well.

Steve
07-05-2011, 10:57 AM
Salyer was absent at today's meeting.

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 11:00 AM
Pete White just moved to defer vote item 8-I. Deferral failed by a vote of 2 (White, Kelly) to 5.

A Populus representative is now speaking, on the convention center site selection.

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 11:01 AM
Salyer was absent at today's meeting.
I understand that. But she announced her opposition to the deferral through someone, announced at the meeting, as though someone had her proxy. I'll be looking closely at the video.

bornhere
07-05-2011, 11:07 AM
Must... obey... Chamber...

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 11:12 AM
Must... obey... Chamber...
My personal opinion, and it's nothing more than that, is that the top of the pyramid, so to speak, is not the Chamber but is instead a handful of chamber members, those who contributed more than $460,000 to the Committee for Oklahoma City Momentum in the last round of council elections. In general, the chamber may well have many in its membership who do not like what is going on but that they, like mere citizens, are pretty much powerless ... perhaps until it comes time for the next city council elections.

kevinpate
07-05-2011, 11:15 AM
smells like sausage getting made

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 11:19 AM
Now, the discussion continues in the Populus part ... City Manager said that he'd had a conversation with council member Shadid last night ... and the City Manager is presenting the questions that he had ... talk about picking the wrong guy to ask his questions.

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 11:20 AM
Motion to Approve the convention center location ... passes 6-1.

And that ends the fun part of today's council meeting.

Comments by individual council members are now being presented and we're near the end of the meeting. Nothing was said which relates the items that I mentioned, above.

I'll be putting a video together about what he/she said "then" and what "he/she" said today, but it might not come until after I return from my vacation on July 14. It's really easy to see how citizen perspectives can become jaded about how things are done in city government, and I'm not sure that I'm up to reporting objectively over time since until this year I've really not paid close attention to what goes on at city council. If this year is the typical measuring stick ... I'm sorry, but I've got to give our city, on a A-F scholastic scale, some measure of a D. I would say F, but I'm not quite that jaded, as yet.

G.Walker
07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
nice, now regarding the approved time line, it shows land acquisition and site prep for the new CC taking almost 3 years, now it shouldn't take that long?

Midtowner
07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Thank you for your coverage, Doug.

Steve
07-05-2011, 11:28 AM
This is the most divisive vote I've ever witnessed in the history of the MAPS projects. I'll be interested to see how Michael Kimball covers it.

G.Walker
07-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Moreover, one thing that I am confused about, is how was the City was able to start land acquisition process for the new central park, before approval of the MAPS3 time line?

Steve
07-05-2011, 11:32 AM
ding, ding, ding...

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 11:35 AM
This is the most divisive vote I've ever witnessed in the history of the MAPS projects. I'll be interested to see how Michael Kimball covers it.
You are not the only one, Steve, particularly in view of recent changes at the top at the Oklahoman.

As for me, I'll be heading down to Port Aransas, TX, Thursday with members of my family and put this down for a few days (unless I begin blogging before I leave). Good family times, beach babes, shrimp on the barbe, etc., will be my personal agenda.

At this very moment, there is a little part of me that wishes that I could just stay there and forget forever about the crap that I've been witnessing today and over the past several weeks. But, that's just me, and unfortunately no one lives down there who will take me in.

But, on the other hand, I am reminded that I just watched the Battle Los Angeles movie on pay-per-view with my son and a grandson before the above council discussion occurred ... and how, even in desperate straits, a few proud marines, and an air force sergeant, managed to blow up the alien invader's Los Angeles command center which controlled all of the drone airship fighting vehicles. After doing so and being offered a well deserved breakfast, SSGT Michael Nantz, instead reloaded his weapons, and his team did the same, and they left and returned to the battle, he telling his superior, "We just had breakfast."

On edit and further reflection re Battle Los Angeles ... just thinking ... command center as relates to drone airship fighting vehicles ... just thinking ... eh

Just the facts
07-05-2011, 11:49 AM
This is the most divisive vote I've ever witnessed in the history of the MAPS projects. I'll be interested to see how Michael Kimball covers it.

Do you think there is any doubt about how it will be covered?

I know you can't answer that.

This is from Michael's article today:



The crux of the debate is whether to start MAPS 3 projects aimed mostly at economic development first or those intended primarily as ways to improve the quality of life in Oklahoma City.



The streetcar IS economic development AND quality of life. By writting that we already know whose side he is on.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 12:23 PM
Steve,

Help me out here. Which "option" was chosen? I've read the Oklahoman article and I cannot understand what it is saying. I know there was one proposal that involved moving "phase 2" of the streetcar back but that isn't mentioned in the article.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 12:28 PM
1. I'm very sorry I chose to spend time on behalf of Meg Salyer's campaign. I may actually work for her ouster in the next election.

2. Does anyone know why Greenwell voted against the proposed timeline?

mcca7596
07-05-2011, 12:33 PM
1. I'm very sorry I chose to spend time on behalf of Meg Salyer's campaign. I may actually work for her ouster in the next election.


Would you really have wanted the fundamentalist Baptist alternative?

betts
07-05-2011, 12:34 PM
Yes, I was at the meeting. Greenwell said he is in favor of completion of the park by 2014. He actually spoke on behalf of my idea of a park, saying he would like to see a park on the order of the Washington Mall, saying he saw people after work playing sports on the grass and generally lounging around and thought a big open space would work just fine. He expressed some concerns about transit, although he did say he is a big transit proponent and seemed to indicate he wanted more time for it. He thought that moving the convention center up only 21 months would allow more time to consider how best to facilitate a hotel. This is all from memory, not the videotape, so I apologize if I left something out or interpreted what he said incorrectly.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 12:36 PM
Would you really have wanted the fundamentalist Baptist alternative?

No. I'm still pissed at Meg.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 12:38 PM
So Betts, how does this affect the streetcar?

betts
07-05-2011, 01:04 PM
I don't have my timeline in front of me and cannot remember precise dates, but it pushes the start for the first four (approximately, depending on price) miles back one year, to 2014, I believe. Someone who has access to the timeline can correct me if I'm wrong. We are to have a year for standards and implementation work, and that is what adds the time. The second phase, approximately two miles (again, depending on price) is pushed almost to the end of the timeline. Of course, if we qualify for federal funding, that money will not be part of the timeline, so it is possible we could end up with as much or more mileage before phase two is set to begin. My concern then, however, is that if the CC is over budget, our money for phase two could be appropriated to help with the CC, on the grounds that we got our six miles. No one has really been able to reassure me that it couldn't happen.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 01:24 PM
I don't have my timeline in front of me and cannot remember precise dates, but it pushes the start for the first four (approximately, depending on price) miles back one year, to 2014, I believe. Someone who has access to the timeline can correct me if I'm wrong. We are to have a year for standards and implementation work, and that is what adds the time. The second phase, approximately two miles (again, depending on price) is pushed almost to the end of the timeline. Of course, if we qualify for federal funding, that money will not be part of the timeline, so it is possible we could end up with as much or more mileage before phase two is set to begin. My concern then, however, is that if the CC is over budget, our money for phase two could be appropriated to help with the CC, on the grounds that we got our six miles. No one has really been able to reassure me that it couldn't happen.

Well the council itself brought up the need to make the system stretch further to be more useful. There would be hell to pay for anyone who approved misappropriating federal money like that, IMO.

betts
07-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Oh, they wouldn't misappropriate federal money. The money for the last two miles is MAPS money. I'm simply saying if, with the addition of federal money, we are able to get six miles of streetcar, the money sitting in the MAPS bank for the last two miles will look tempting if the CC is over budget. The public might not notice if they get their six miles.

Just the facts
07-05-2011, 01:54 PM
So Betts, how does this affect the streetcar?

Streetcar won't come on-line until 2021.

betts
07-05-2011, 02:15 PM
Streetcar won't come on-line until 2021.

Again, where are you getting this information?

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 02:17 PM
No. I'm still pissed at Meg.
My thoughts exactly.

king183
07-05-2011, 02:21 PM
Again, where are you getting this information?

That's what The Oklahoman said in the article. However, I'm not sure they were distinguishing between phases. It merely said final completion of the streetcar will be 2021. That's extremely disappointing.

mcca7596
07-05-2011, 02:32 PM
Jeff Bezdek (Urban Pioneer) said on the Gwin Faulconer show last sunday that we are still four to five years out of seeing the first operations. So that means around 2016 that the core "Bricktown to Midtown" line should be completed. I'm ok with that, mainly because Mr. Bezdek doesn't seem to be too concerned with not getting what we originally envisioned.

Urban Pioneer
07-05-2011, 02:33 PM
That's what The Oklahoman said in the article. However, I'm not sure they were distinguishing between phases. It merely said final completion of the streetcar will be 2021. That's extremely disappointing.

I posted this on the streetcar thread. Seems relevant here.

"Actual streetcar construction is 3-4 years out with some degree of service potentially start within 4-5 years.

I think there is a great deal of confusion in the public about the timeline. Some key streetcar advocates protested. But it is important to know what it was that they were protesting.

Most of the protest was directed at the process, not the timeline.

The "Phase 2" of transit is delayed by two years, I don't hold much credence to the timeline overall that far out.

The "Standards and Evaluation Phase" has subsequently been clarified and most of us are comfortable that it is reasonable in the entire scheme of things.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 02:38 PM
Well after reading the article in the Oklahoman, everything is now as clear as mud. Thanks to Urban Pioneer for providing detail.

Urban Pioneer
07-05-2011, 02:38 PM
I wouldn't be too angry at the overall program timeline with regard to streetcar specifically. It is ok.

It is the process itself and how it was handled that angered a great many people. That "two-year" delay for a "Phase 2", I wouldn't worry too much about that.

When the thing gets going, it will be moving in spite of itself and there will be procurement/construction efficiencies gained that will encourage the best practical use of monies. Not sticking to an arbitrary timeline.

For example to the doubters, how does City Staff start expending monies on the "Wellness Centers" next month when they don't even know what a "Wellness Center" is? If monies are accrued that can be logically applied when other projects are stalled, then we will probably move forward with where best we can.

This was as much a political "feel good" chart for the establishment as it was for the Council. It does affect "the big picture" but it's long-term affect will be different than it is currently depicted today.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 02:43 PM
It should be clear to everyone paying attention that the bullies are still in charge in this town.

MikeOKC
07-05-2011, 03:17 PM
The Committee for Oklahoma City Momentum is alive and well.

Doug, I'm interested in this aspect. Since that whole thing was so cloudy/fuzzy/underhanded/secretive/take-your-pick; what do you see as the evidence that they are, "alive and well?" I think we're on the same page - just checking.

I remember well the "good old boy" system of corporate-media-government that walked hand in hand through the 60's, 70's 80's, etc. It looks to me that the more the times change - the more they stay the same. Just new faces, but the same social and economic circles still control this city. They (or their representatives) are on every other board, chairing this and that committee, funding every other "independent" study, etc. As I said in another thread, many of these people have done much good - but it comes with a price, and that price is almost complete and total power - never to be crossed. It's The Golden Rule: He who has the money - rules. We all know who they are. They're even a more tight-knit bunch than their predecessors.

metro
07-05-2011, 03:25 PM
1. I'm very sorry I chose to spend time on behalf of Meg Salyer's campaign. I may actually work for her ouster in the next election.

2. Does anyone know why Greenwell voted against the proposed timeline?
That may be me if I still choose to run.

rcjunkie
07-05-2011, 03:25 PM
It should be clear to everyone paying attention that the bullies are still in charge in this town.

IMO, it should be clear to everyone that no matter what, when, when, or why, the Council prioritized the projects, some would be happy, some not. They were elected to do a job, let them do it, if things go wrong there's always election time to make corrections.

MikeOKC
07-05-2011, 03:30 PM
IMO, it should be clear to everyone that no matter what, when, when, or why, the Council prioritized the projects, some would be happy, some not. They were elected to do a job, let them do it, if things go wrong there's always election time to make corrections.

And always the same money men to make sure opposition to their vision of Oklahoma City, with their power entrenched, is unchanged. Let's hope that Ed Shadid's victory can light a new flame for further challenges against the powers that be. It's not that they are always wrong - but there must be strong and independent people on the Council to serve as a check against their steamrolling.

city
07-05-2011, 03:48 PM
... perhaps until it comes time for the next city council elections.

The next time city council elections roll around ... Cornett, Marrs, Ryan, Salyer, and McAtee must go! Their behavior has been sickening.

soonerguru
07-05-2011, 04:58 PM
That may be me if I still choose to run.

I know we've gotten crossed up here a few times, but I would honestly consider supporting your candidacy. At least your positions aren't dictated to you by "higher ups" in the social order, as Meg's appear to be.

rcjunkie
07-05-2011, 05:01 PM
And always the same money men to make sure opposition to their vision of Oklahoma City, with their power entrenched, is unchanged. Let's hope that Ed Shadid's victory can light a new flame for further challenges against the powers that be. It's not that they are always wrong - but there must be strong and independent people on the Council to serve as a check against their steamrolling.

All MAPS Projects to date have had timelines moved, changed, and they have all turned out well, as will all of the projects in MAPS3.

Doug Loudenback
07-05-2011, 05:33 PM
Doug, I'm interested in this aspect. Since that whole thing was so cloudy/fuzzy/underhanded/secretive/take-your-pick; what do you see as the evidence that they are, "alive and well?" I think we're on the same page - just checking.

I remember well the "good old boy" system of corporate-media-government that walked hand in hand through the 60's, 70's 80's, etc. It looks to me that the more the times change - the more they stay the same. Just new faces, but the same social and economic circles still control this city. They (or their representatives) are on every other board, chairing this and that committee, funding every other "independent" study, etc. As I said in another thread, many of these people have done much good - but it comes with a price, and that price is almost complete and total power - never to be crossed. It's The Golden Rule: He who has the money - rules. We all know who they are. They're even a more tight-knit bunch than their predecessors.
As I said, Mike, my quoted comments were simply personal opinion, and nothing more. I have nothing tethering either Marrs, Salyer and/or Ryan to Momentum, as a matter of fact.

What I do have is this:

At the May 31 hearing on Shadid & White's proposal for a 3-week set of hearings on major proposals, a big deal was made by Marrs, Salyer & Ryan that all a council member needed to do if he/she wanted more time was to ask for a continuance. Marrs said that he'd never known a time that such a request had not been granted. On this day, for sure, it did, in spades. I'm putting together a video which shows the remarks on May 31 contrasted with those of July 5, today. True, Salyer didn't speak today, but she did pass along her opinion, essentially by proxy, that the matter(s) should not be deferred.

Why did Marrs back off of his strong earlier comments about never having remembered a continuance not being granted if a council member wanted one, and ditto for Salyer? Ryan was a bit more circumspect in his remarks, but I tend to place him in the same group of these three because I think on May 31 he was saying essentially the same thing as Marrs and Salyer.

I've not finished my thoughts about this and will wait until listening closely to today's council meeting when it becomes available for download. Maybe, on close listen, I'll see/hear something differently. That said, at first blush, the comments expressed on May 31 and those expressed on July 7 by Marrs, Salyer, and Ryan, do not appear to be a good fit.

I also want to give props to Skip Kelley on what he said today. His remarks on May 31 could be subject to being on the obtuse side. That was not the case today on July 5, and I congratulate him, on behalf of me, and of those who think the same way. Skip did a great job today.

About the mayor and council members McAtee and Greenwell who seemed to be lurking in grey-zones, they kind of fall into a fuzzy place which does not give much certain identification about their roots and bases for voting. I may or may not have more to say about that when I post my own blog post after the next Oklahoma Gazette is published, perhaps tomorrow.

Another matter worth considering: In our earliest days as a city, there would be no discussion such as this which is being done here. The capitalists did what they did without any serious criticism, and, in fact, those capitalists either built or enabled major rail lines locating though this city, meat packing plants in the stockyards area, and these major developments were done without any prior citizen approval, the trolley routes which routed through the city, among other things, not excepted.

So ... is it best just to turn the evolution of the city over the the current day capitalists? Not saying, but maybe they are ...

JohnH_in_OKC
07-05-2011, 05:37 PM
To the OKC City Councilmen and woman: You have betrayed the voters of MAPS 3. I voted for MAPS 3 to finally get neighborhood sidewalks and Senior Swim Centers. Your vote is cause for me to support any initiative petition to stop tax collection for MAPS 3.
You have outraged a huge amount of voters and it may be the death of MAPS 4 and an early end to MAPS 3. Hopefully the returning council members will reverse your idiotic vote.

Why even build a new Convention Center that is no bigger than our present Cox Center and is an albatross on our city? Follow the desire of your citizens and build what you promised first. Unless this decision is reversed, you've lost ALL your support.

betts
07-05-2011, 05:50 PM
Although I was disappointed that the Convention Center was moved up as much as it was, I do think we're all being a bit too dramatic. There will almost assuredly be at least one wellness center before ground is broken on the CC, there will be sidewalks and trails. It's not as if they moved the CC up to the absolute front of the line and pushed everything back ten years. I believe over the course of ten years, one Wellness Center at a time will continually be in planning and/or construction. The core route of the streetcar has been pushed back one year, and while I do not believe that CNG is at all practical for the streetcar, it may make doing an electric/hybrid system more feasible if we have an extra year. If they had moved us to the absolute back of the line I would have been furious, but it is true that everything will be started and some things completed in the first half of the program. As David Greenwell said today, we will have the northern half of the park at least grassed in and some landscaping in place. He, like me, would like to see a "Mall" type of park since the Myriad is so programmed and that's not a terrible thing. Even for those who love programmed parks, we will have some time to see what works and what doesn't in the Myriad and apply that knowledge to the new park. Since Core to Shore is going to evolve over time, we'll have a better idea of what to do with the south park if it is later in the timeline.

I don't think those who pushed for moving the Convention Center up are evil, greedy or self-absorbed. Rather, I think they have a different viewpoint of what drives cities forward. I think they're probably wrong, but even if I'm right, that would make them misguided, not uncaring.

lasomeday
07-05-2011, 06:17 PM
Wow, is this a small town or OKC? It feels like small town politics. I wish I would have voted NO! This MAPS should be called MAPS for City Elite. Regular citizens have no say! I am voting no on all MAPS or other city votes from now on. Their power is out of control!

BDK
07-05-2011, 06:25 PM
Though I'm not happy about the street car being pushed back, rearranged improvements are better than no improvements at all. As long as all projects are completed, I'll be happy in the end.

kevinpate
07-05-2011, 06:30 PM
although i was disappointed that the convention center was moved up as much as it was, i do think we're all being a bit too dramatic. ... I don't think those who pushed for moving the convention center up are evil, greedy or self-absorbed. Rather, i think they have a different viewpoint of what drives cities forward. I think they're probably wrong, but even if i'm right, that would make them misguided, not uncaring.

this

MikeOKC
07-05-2011, 08:09 PM
although i was disappointed that the convention center was moved up as much as it was, i do think we're all being a bit too dramatic. ... I don't think those who pushed for moving the convention center up are evil, greedy or self-absorbed. Rather, i think they have a different viewpoint of what drives cities forward. I think they're probably wrong, but even if i'm right, that would make them misguided, not uncaring.


this

I wish I could accept it the way you two have, I just can't. I do think it's about greed and what's best for our local good old (rich) boys and their short-term goals. "Follow The Money" is as good of a three word phrase to sum up such a complicated process, so...as cliché as it might sound --- Follow The Money.

To Doug: Thanks (as always) for all the work you do for the citizens of Oklahoma City. I look forward to your blog post. I also believe you have a valid point about the differences in communication and technology from the former days of our city. But the question you asked at the end of your last post? I say absolutely not. We don't need a local plutocracy.

edit: For younger people here who may not know exactly what a "plutocracy" is - here's an excellent summation from Kevin Phillips:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy#Modern_politics

betts
07-05-2011, 08:38 PM
I wish I could accept it the way you two have, I just can't. I do think it's about greed and what's best for our local good old (rich) boys and their short-term goals. "Follow The Money" is as good of a three word phrase to sum up such a complicated process, so...as cliché as it might sound --- Follow The Money.

I cannot come up with a scenario that fits your fears. Larry Nichols has no interest in the land in question. Neither does Kirk Humphreys. I don't know of any close connection of either of them to Bob Howard. In fact, one could probably argue they have closer ties with Meinders than Bob Howard, especially Tom McDaniels who has certainly supported the current site. Regardless, both Humphries and Nichols have added public servant to their resumes. And for Nichols, the kind of money we're talking about is laughable. I think you have to look at Project 180 to understand Nichols. He wants to beautify downtown. Populous very cleverly has billed convention centers as "showpieces". What better way to attract the interest of someone like Larry Nichols than to appeal to his desire to have the area around his building aesthetically pleasing? Couple that with information, perhaps from the Chamber, telling them that the Convention Center is an economic development boon and it wouldn't be too hard to sell the concept of moving it up on the timeline. I think the Chamber has failed to keep up with the times, and I question some of their practices, but I think this time it's aesthetics, civic pride and, on the part of the Chamber, desire for power and outmoded assumptions, that drive these interests.

Larry OKC
07-05-2011, 09:09 PM
Moreover, one thing that I am confused about, is how was the City was able to start land acquisition process for the new central park, before approval of the MAPS3 time line?

Can understand the confusion but mot unheard of. The City started acquiring land for the MAPS 3 Park before MAPS 3 was announced much less voted on and approved. $6MM+ IIRC (with authorization up to $26MM in the 2007 G.O. bond).

Besides that, don't need a timeline in place before you can buy the property, is there? They already had defined the location of the Park. That was a given.

bornhere
07-05-2011, 09:10 PM
Rather, i think they have a different viewpoint of what drives cities forward.

They also have a different definition of "forward".


My personal opinion, and it's nothing more than that, is that the top of the pyramid, so to speak, is not the Chamber but is instead a handful of chamber members, those who contributed more than $460,000 to the Committee for Oklahoma City Momentum in the last round of council elections. In general, the chamber may well have many in its membership who do not like what is going on but that they, like mere citizens, are pretty much powerless ... perhaps until it comes time for the next city council elections.

I agree. Many years ago, when Gaylord, McGee and Vose ruled downtown and the chamber, I occasionally heard complaints from smaller chamber members about the organization's attitude. According to these small businessmen, they were basically pressured and/or coerced into joining, only to find that the chamber cared nothing about their concerns or opinions. If you weren't part of that inner circle that met at the Petroleum Club (or was it the Beacon Club?), you were invisible unless it was time to pay dues.

We had a period of apparent openness in OKC for awhile, beginning during Ron Norick's term as mayor, but it seems to be gone now.

MikeOKC
07-05-2011, 09:34 PM
They also have a different definition of "forward".



I agree. Many years ago, when Gaylord, McGee and Vose ruled downtown and the chamber, I occasionally heard complaints from smaller chamber members about the organization's attitude. According to these small businessmen, they were basically pressured and/or coerced into joining, only to find that the chamber cared nothing about their concerns or opinions. If you weren't part of that inner circle that met at the Petroleum Club (or was it the Beacon Club?), you were invisible unless it was time to pay dues.

We had a period of apparent openness in OKC for awhile, beginning during Ron Norick's term as mayor, but it seems to be gone now.

Well said. You left out one power player up until 1963: Robert S. Kerr. The Dean of Oklahoma City. He kept an opulent king's chamber in downtown OKC even while Governor and U.S. Senator where he "received" his visitors. Now his great-nephew, Aubrey McClendon, has built his kingdom in an entire neighborhood.

For BETTS: It doesn't work that way. The way the good old boy's clubs work is in such a fashion to only rarely be blatant. So while there's little to look at the convention center (and hotel) and show who benefits out of the bunch is not something I can point to without knowing who's planning what where, with whose partnership and on and on. It's NOT a conspiracy theory - it's Oklahoma City business and politics. I'll scratch your back here, if you scratch mine there. I'll see to it that so and so does this and you'll owe me one. That time comes around and it's a wash, rinse and repeat cycle. It's not good municipal governance to always answer to the kings. Seriously, you end up with a local plutocracy - A fiefdom for the corporate elite. Of course, they always "know best." Our poor, ignorant citizenry just doesn't understand how the sausage gets made. That's the attitude in the suites who have paid with $$$ for a direct hotline to City Hall.

This whole thing has obviously upset a lot of people and I'm one of them. I'm just adding something for consideration as to my opinion on how these things can become systemic within our city very quickly when you become a "company town." We all know who they are. They feel entitled. Just my opinion.

edit: Remember when some of us way back were so worried about MAPS 3 not having the specificity of previous MAPS? Everybody said we could "trust" them. (cough, cough)

rcjunkie
07-05-2011, 09:44 PM
To the OKC City Councilmen and woman: You have betrayed the voters of MAPS 3. I voted for MAPS 3 to finally get neighborhood sidewalks and Senior Swim Centers. Your vote is cause for me to support any initiative petition to stop tax collection for MAPS 3.
You have outraged a huge amount of voters and it may be the death of MAPS 4 and an early end to MAPS 3. Hopefully the returning council members will reverse your idiotic vote.

Why even build a new Convention Center that is no bigger than our present Cox Center and is an albatross on our city? Follow the desire of your citizens and build what you promised first. Unless this decision is reversed, you've lost ALL your support.

You act as though the Council has decided to build things that were not even in MAPS3, the sidewalks and Senior Welness Centers will still be built, the size of the CC was known from the start. (if you remove the arena footage from the Cox Center, the new CC will actually have MORE convention space).

rcjunkie
07-05-2011, 09:48 PM
I wish I could accept it the way you two have, I just can't. I do think it's about greed and what's best for our local good old (rich) boys and their short-term goals. "Follow The Money" is as good of a three word phrase to sum up such a complicated process, so...as cliché as it might sound --- Follow The Money.To Doug: Thanks (as always) for all the work you do for the citizens of Oklahoma City. I look forward to your blog post. I also believe you have a valid point about the differences in communication and technology from the former days of our city. But the question you asked at the end of your last post? I say absolutely not. We don't need a local plutocracy.

edit: For younger people here who may not know exactly what a "plutocracy" is - here's an excellent summation from Kevin Phillips:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy#Modern_politics

Again I ask a simple question, others have tried to explain but have yet been sucessful--how does moving the construction of the CC up on the time line list, benefit any of your so called "local, good ole rich boys)

rcjunkie
07-05-2011, 09:53 PM
Well said. You left out one power player up until 1963: Robert S. Kerr. The Dean of Oklahoma City. He kept an opulent king's chamber in downtown OKC even while Governor and U.S. Senator where he "received" his visitors. Now his great-nephew, Aubrey McClendon, has built his kingdom in an entire neighborhood.

For BETTS: It doesn't work that way. The way the good old boy's clubs work is in such a fashion to only rarely be blatant. So while there's little to look at the convention center (and hotel) and show who benefits out of the bunch is not something I can point to without knowing who's planning what where, with whose partnership and on and on. It's NOT a conspiracy theory - it's Oklahoma City business and politics. I'll scratch your back here, if you scratch mine there. I'll see to it that so and so does this and you'll owe me one. That time comes around and it's a wash, rinse and repeat cycle. It's not good municipal governance to always answer to the kings. Seriously, you end up with a local plutocracy - A fiefdom for the corporate elite. Of course, they always "know best." Our poor, ignorant citizenry just doesn't understand how the sausage gets made. That's the attitude in the suites who have paid with $$$ for a direct hotline to City Hall.

This whole thing has obviously upset a lot of people and I'm one of them. I'm just adding something for consideration as to my opinion on how these things can become systemic within our city very quickly when you become a "company town." We all know who they are. They feel entitled. Just my opinion.

edit: Remember when some of us way back were so worried about MAPS 3 not having the specificity of previous MAPS? Everybody said we could "trust" them. (cough, cough)

This is laughable. Nothing has changed, all of the proposed and voted on items will be built, OKC will continue to prosper, and all of the nay sayers will join the supporters in enjoying the success of MAPS3.

betts
07-05-2011, 09:59 PM
If projects are not built, we will have reason to feel we were lied to. If money is taken from one project to fund another I will feel the same. While I disagree with why the convention center was moved up, it's a philosophical argument. I didn't really care about a convention center but clearly remember we knew it was planned so by voting "yes" I voted for it. I do not remember voting on a timeline, or a location. I didn't think any of the locations were perfect and again, my problem with the one chosen is philosophical. It's hard to feel betrayed by a difference of opinion.

Mikemarsh51
07-05-2011, 10:13 PM
Quite surprised that some of you are surprised how this was handled.

Urban Pioneer
07-05-2011, 10:27 PM
Jeff Bezdek (Urban Pioneer) said on the Gwin Faulconer show last sunday that we are still four to five years out of seeing the first operations. So that means around 2016 that the core "Bricktown to Midtown" line should be completed. I'm ok with that, mainly because Mr. Bezdek doesn't seem to be too concerned with not getting what we originally envisioned.

Thanks for listening! I wouldn't have posted had I seen your comments first. Yes, I am not alarmed about this schedule issue. Believe me, it could have been worse. Right now, the chosen course does not affect Federal supplemental fund applications. Nor do I think that this 2-year "delay" on a "Phase 2" will be carried through if it ends up being obvious that a different schedule saves taxpayer funds.

Not to say that people shouldn't be upset with how it was brought about, but the actual selection probably is being debated a bit dramatically.